Big Box Store Tubs May Be All Some People Can Afford

[JohnInSJ]

Me too

It's all about your budget, in the end.

[Saskman]

Wait its all over.....I found a rubber ducky radio.....sorry for starting this post had I known that I could get a rubber ducky radio I would have

never started all this. And I wanted a radio in my hot tub...how silly could I have been. Thanks for keeping me from making a big mistake...lol

Cheers

[Dr. Spa]

[Richs100]

Does that duck have a transducer in it?

[soakerman]

This is where I think shopping a reputable dealer helps. No one wants to buy a spa and then find out later someone else bought the same exact spa,

but less, or got a free upgrade. A repuatbal dealer offers his products at a fair price and knows that if he starts playing games he can end up shooting him

self in the foot. (get a bad rep, or a rep that you have to haggle with them, and soon he's reflecting that in his price...it's sucks).

Honeslty, don't you always feel like the salesman is hustling you a bit when they start throwing in the "extras"?

"Ok, if you buy tonight, right now, I'll give you a robe and a ducky".

AS I get older and have a bit more disposable income (knock on wood) than I did when I was younger, and hopefully a bit wiser,

I prefer to buy quality. Shop around for the best price, and do my homework. Salesmen that think I'll give them business over a $20 trinket, or because they offer me a

"once in a lifetime deal if I pay tonight!" insult me. They make me question thier integrity and buisness stability.

Every spa dealer I went to without exception did exactly as you said and that is why I refused to buy when a game is played.

The big box store charges a set price no matter who buys and the price is usually good for months at a time with no haggling. That is why they are gaining such popularity such as Costco is. It is a sale with respect. honesty, dignity and trust a dealer shows that they don't afford many customers.

[Jim_The_Jim]

..If I bought a tub and it was bad, neither hell nor high water would have kept me from dropping that POS tub right back on the doorstep of where I bought it. I would rather be out $300 than have a pos tub sitting in my backyard, I would rather have a return policy than be stuck with a tub that didnt work. Some things in life arent fun...returning a hot tub I am sure isnt...but sometimes you got to do what you got to do!

Exactly. Anyone who wants to avoid the hassle of self-service should consider service and support before they buy.

If you are not prepaired to take care of some of the service issues yourself, either by doing the work, or by hiring professionals, then

don't buy them. But considering that the Hydro is about 4 to 6 thousand less than a Sundance, you could pay a service guy at 100 dollars per hour

for 40 hours of work until you reach the difference in savings. The obvious is easily obvious on this.

[Pathfinder]

I have wondered why is it when there are dealers that have tubs priced accordingly and not with huge markups people always insist on trying to beat them up on price.

But when they go to a big retailer haggling is not allowed even though they all have markups??? You dont go to Costco and

say "well how about you throw this and that in" or "is that the best you can do??"when you buy a TV or Comp

Soaker, I totally agree with you being turned off by the "the deal is only good till the end off the day" type crap.

I had a boss tell me that all the time to tell the customer the deal is only good till they walk out of the store & it pissed me off

I would tell the customer the deal my boss said then on a side note tell them if the came back they could still get the deal.

[Saskman]

I have wondered why is it when there are dealers that have tubs priced accordingly and not with huge markups people always insist on trying to beat them up on price.

But when they go to a big retailer haggling is not allowed even though they all have markups??? You dont go to Costco and

say "well how about you throw this and that in" or "is that the best you can do??"when you buy a TV or Comp

Soaker, I totally agree with you being turned off by the "the deal is only good till the end off the day" type crap.

I had a boss tell me that all the time to tell the customer the deal is only good till they walk out of the store & it pissed me off

I would tell the customer the deal my boss said then on a side note tell them if the came back they could still get the deal.

My point was that the manufacturers could add a few things at the manufacturing level where the cost are minimal. What I don't understand is why so many people have a problem with this. If I had a shop and the factory said...hey we are putting in 9 free LED lights and make our product more marketable I would like it?

[Spamaster101]

]

...hey we are putting in 9 free LED lights and make our product more marketable I would like it?

There is that free word again. I understand what you are saying, but if a manufacturer told they are giving free LED lights, they just charged you for them somewhere else.

[Tom]

LOL...I started this mess. Ok here is some examples that I think sums it up. One dealer passed out undated research material that was based on still air tests with no mention of spa cover control.

Hey, that would be us! Odd how that 'cover control' thing comes up, that was Roger's big gripe a couple of years ago. As for still air, pfui. You want wind, you have pay for wind machines. Either way, you need a controlled environment so that every spa is equally windblown.

Here are some comments, taken from Page 1 of the Final Report, Thermal Performance Test of Spas, conducted by the Alberta Research Council (BTW, how come nobody reads page 1?)

• "...Every possible means was taken to ensure that the tests were conducted under similar conditions for all participating products."
• "All the spas were purchased at random from retail locations by the ARC and shipped to the testing facility." That includes our two units. They were purchased as is, off the floor as a 'blind purchase' and we had no chance to 'load' them. If ours came with a thick cover, and the others didn't, that's important data for the consumer.
• "The tests were performed in a controlled environment and were not intended to represent an actual 'field' application where wind, sunlight, and product placement could influence the actual performance... It is felt however that such [scientifically controlled] tests do reflect the relative performance of the tested products."
• "there are several differences in the spas that complicate the evaluation. Some of these differences are: variation in spa volumes; different heating and filtering systems...; and small variations in air temperatures during the tests.

[Jim_The_Jim]

LOL...I started this mess. Ok here is some examples that I think sums it up. One dealer passed out undated research material that was based on still air tests with no mention of spa cover control.

Hey, that would be us! Odd how that 'cover control' thing comes up, that was Roger's big gripe a couple of years ago. As for still air, pfui. You want wind, you have pay for wind machines. Either way, you need a controlled environment so that every spa is equally windblown.

Here are some comments, taken from Page 1 of the Final Report, Thermal Performance Test of Spas, conducted by the Alberta Research Council (BTW, how come nobody reads page 1?)

• "...Every possible means was taken to ensure that the tests were conducted under similar conditions for all participating products."
• "All the spas were purchased at random from retail locations by the ARC and shipped to the testing facility." That includes our two units. They were purchased as is, off the floor as a 'blind purchase' and we had no chance to 'load' them. If ours came with a thick cover, and the others didn't, that's important data for the consumer.
• "The tests were performed in a controlled environment and were not intended to represent an actual 'field' application where wind, sunlight, and product placement could influence the actual performance... It is felt however that such [scientifically controlled] tests do reflect the relative performance of the tested products."
• "there are several differences in the spas that complicate the evaluation. Some of these differences are: variation in spa volumes; different heating and filtering systems...; and small variations in air temperatures during the tests.

That is why letters were sent out to ever spa company to participate in the side by side testing.

I finally realized that all these spa companies are "chicken" to do any side by side testing.

The Spashopperguide.com

Presents!

The Official Spa Challenge!

For years we have had this challenge out to the spa industry and no one has bothered to respond. I think that a test is the most powerful educational tool there is for evaluating spas. Any spa company who wants to prove, beyond any doubt the reliability and energy efficiency and user appreciation of their products, should participate in this challenge. This is the "stock car race" of the spa industry. I think that any spa company who advertises that they have energy efficiency or any of the standard sales presentations, that this challenge would help you to sell more products. The competitors of this challenge will know what they need to do to improve the products for the next generation of models they produce.

This is now an official challenge to any and all spa manufacturers or suppliers.

On *December 1, 2005 through March 1, 2006, we are offering a spa engineering challenge to all spa manufacturers who are willing to participate. This is a test of spas in severe cold conditions of the mountains of Colorado. We will be holding the "Spa Challenge" that will be conducted by an independent company. We will most likely use an independent service company in good standing with the Better Business Bureau. I will be researching this to find the best possible company. Each spa company will be notified of this challenge and an official reply will be published as well. Any spa company that does not answer this challenge will also be noted and listed as spa companies who refused the challenge. A copy of the official notification of the Spa Challenge will be published in Aqua Magazine as well as the responses from the spa companies. If you refuse this challenge, you will be losing out on a tremendous opportunity to put your product up against the competition and the world will know that you refused the challenge. There is a modest entry fee to pay for the testing. The deadline for entry into The Official Spa Challenge is Sept 1, 2005.

The rules of the challenge are as follows.

1. Each spa manufacturer is to deliver and set up one or more of your spas to a testing ground near Fraser, Colorado (or any other Colorado mountain town we choose). You may bring no more than three models to fit into three different categories and only one spa in each category. Each participating spa manufacturer will have it set up and running by December 1, 2005. Each spa company will pay an entry fee of $7,000 per spa and supply a spa for testing with each entry. The spa must be a standard model with the same equipment and set up as a production model. You can bring the spa up anytime in November, 2005 and get it going and have any bugs worked out over the month of November. This is to insure that any mechanical concerns are taken care of before the testing begins.

2. Electric kilowatt meters will be placed on all spas, the same brand of meter from the same manufacturer on each spa. After the test the meters will be tested for calibration and any variances will be noted and used to determine the actual kilowatts used.

3. On December 1, 2005, and after the spa is up and running, with steps and cover lift in place the manufacturer's representative will not be allowed to touch the spa or be within 100 feet of their spas until the test is over. This is to simulate actual use by consumers. The instructions for use will be explained to the independent testing company employee in charge of maintaining your spa. You will furnish your standard covers for the spas as well. If the spa breaks down and becomes not fully functional, it will be eliminated from the challenge and forfeit any awards.

3. This test is for comparison of energy efficiency (usage), freeze protection, reliability, freeze down time, cost to repair freeze damage and for subjective opinions by a group of spa users, who are independent of any spa company.

4. Each spa will be tested each day, all spas to have cover's removed at the same time, for 20 minutes of jets running and 20 minutes of soaking. The spas will be used by two to four people at each test. There will be clocks set by each spa to start and stop the spas and to tell the bathers when to get out and cover the spas, per manufacturer's instructions. The time of use will be at 8 PM each evening until 8:40 PM. This is to simulate an average use time and so all spas are used at the same time each day. If a tester participant is not available , then their alternate will take their place.

5. Each of the bathers will test different spas to a maximum of 20 spas, each night for the duration of the test. If there are twenty spas, then each night they will test a different spa brand and model giving three separate testing of each spa being evaluated. At the end of each bathing wet test, the bathers will be asked to answer questions about the test.

6. The testing company will be keeping data on each spa each day, including the temperature of the spa tested with an accurate thermometer, both before the bather's get in and immediately after the bathers get out of the individual spas. A daily log will be kept for each spa noting the times and temperatures. The weather conditions will be monitored and noted four times a day for accurate indications of humidity, wind and outside temperature. A weather station will be placed on the property with those measuring devices used for all spas. Any natural power outages will be logged and each spa will be checked and re-programmed as necessary to adjust the temperature and filter times if needed.

7. In the event of a severe weather storm (or power outage) that exceeds the limits of the bathers physical ability to use the spas, the spas will not be used that day until the next available 8 PM schedule. The covers will remain on and locked for the duration of any storm conditions. However the spas will be checked for normal maintenance, such as to see if the cover remained in place, and if it is still operating. This is to simulate actual use at someone's home.

8. Accurate records will be kept on each spa including the conditions of the water. If the water becomes cloudy or if the water needs special care to keep it clean will also be monitored. The spas will be cared for exactly as the manufacturer recommends. All of the two speed filtering spa will be set to filter 4 hours twice a day minimum. All of the spas with 24 hour filtering will be set to follow the manufacturer's recommendation on filtering with the jet pumps per day.

9. At the end of January, exactly midnight February 1 2004, the power will be turned off on each spa at the exact same moment. There will be a main disconnect on several spas and all spas will have power turned off at the same instant.

10. During the freeze down time test, the spa water temperature will be checked on every spa twice a day at 8 AM and 8 PM. The check will be a brief opening of the cover for a temperature check of the water with the same infrared thermometer used on all spas. The temperature will be logged.

11. The spas will be allowed to freeze and break. The duration of the time until freeze and break will be a major part of this test. The first ones to freeze vs the last ones to freeze. Each spa will be checked hourly until they are frozen and start leaking from broken fittings. The time of the breakdown of the spa will be logged.

12. As soon as the bathing testing is over after Feb. 1, 2005 , each testing bather will give a subjective opinion of the spas. They will be asked a series of questions about the spas and will be given the opportunity to choose their favorite models and tell why.

13. The totals of the electric consumption will be tallied as well, and each spa in each category will be evaluated.

14. Each spa will be repaired back to fully functioning by an independent service company, who will issue invoices for the repairs. The spa repair company will not be allowed to get parts directly from the factory, but from a dealer or a spa parts supply store as is normal. The parts will be marked up to a normal margin that the independent service company uses. All records will be audited by a CPA for accuracy.

15. The maximum time allowed to get all the frozen spas repaired will be three months. Each of the spas will be allowed to be tented and repaired in a heated room if needed. The tenting will be a framed in enclosure with insulated walls on wheels, that can be placed over each freeze damaged spa and heated with a safe propane heater. Photographs of the repairs will be taken for records.

16. There will be awards issued to the winners in each category of spa. (See the Awards section on the next page.). There are to be three categories of spas, based upon size and watts of total horsepower. The awards will be for subjective observations by the users who will vote for their favorite spa and second favorite model these questions will be concerning comfort, quiet operation, and therapy, an award for the best energy efficiency in each category, and an award for the longest time before freezing the water in the spa and finally an award for the least expensive to repair in each category.

*If for any of the establised causes, (see bylaw clauses) such a low participation, the test may be modified, postponed or cancelled, however all standards for objectiveness will be evaluated at that time

[Pathfinder]

Jim if you really wanted the test to be objective why wouldnt you try to hold it somewhere like North Dakota where Im sure windchills beat where you are Or Kapuskasing Ontario where car Manufacturers test cars in the winter. Why does it need to be your backyard. Your freeze test wouldnt be valid since I have never seen parts on new spas break apart when completely frozen.

[East TX Spa]

bleh

[Chas]

You have spammed this all over - but think about it: there is no way in the world that an outdoor test would be fair to all the spas. Not all would get the exact same use, there could be more wind on some than others, more sun or shade on still others, there are about two dozen variables which could easily enter into the picture.

A much simpler and far more accurate test would be to have each manufacturer - starting of course with YOURS - send one or two spas to Exponant.com and have them run the exact same test they ran on the HotSpring tub.

It was scientifically tested just so that it could be repeated on other spas, using carefully monitored and controlled environmental conditions including temperature, pressure and humidity. The tub was even run an exact amount each day, with the cover open a specific amount of time, etc. You couldn't get more accurate if you tried, and you certainly couldn't be anywhere as close to this accurate in your backyard with Steve the Secruity Gaurd watching all night to be sure the neighborhood teenagers don't come have a party in the middle of the night and throw off the whole thing.

Why not send one of your tubs in and have them test it out? It would sure show if there really is a difference in operating costs, and I bet it would cost far less than this 'spa party' you are trying to put together.

[Jim_The_Jim]

You have spammed this all over - but think about it: there is no way in the world that an outdoor test would be fair to all the spas. Not all would get the exact same use, there could be more wind on some than others, more sun or shade on still others, there are about two dozen variables which could easily enter into the picture.

A much simpler and far more accurate test would be to have each manufacturer - starting of course with YOURS - send one or two spas to Exponant.com and have them run the exact same test they ran on the HotSpring tub.

It was scientifically tested just so that it could be repeated on other spas, using carefully monitored and controlled environmental conditions including temperature, pressure and humidity. The tub was even run an exact amount each day, with the cover open a specific amount of time, etc. You couldn't get more accurate if you tried, and you certainly couldn't be anywhere as close to this accurate in your backyard with Steve the Secruity Gaurd watching all night to be sure the neighborhood teenagers don't come have a party in the middle of the night and throw off the whole thing.

Why not send one of your tubs in and have them test it out? It would sure show if there really is a difference in operating costs, and I bet it would cost far less than this 'spa party' you are trying to put together.

You have spammed this BS all over the net, and you know that many engineers have evaluated this test as impractical and has almost nothing to do with the real world.

Your test was done with a 115V spa with a circ pump that you no longer use, and with a 1.5 hp (1.65) and no wind, no people (so no practical value), no 10 minute clean out at the end of each use, and in winter a 115V spa loses temperature fast, so the ending temperature was not recorded. It is concocted to be a sales pitch. Then you apply this misinformation to 240V spas and tell people what there electric consumption will be based upon BS.

I believe that your need to sell this to others has blinded you to the truth.

The Spa Challenge is pretty clear that the spas are all used at the same time for the same duration and under the same weather conditions of wind by independent people not in the spa industry. The company I was going to use is an independent company in the mountains of Colorado to conduct the test and the entire test on 24 hours a day web cam so that no BS is allowed. The wet testers have no association with the spa industry and are bonified lay consumers. They would give a report on every spa that they sat in and what they liked and disliked.

I believe that Hot Spring spas would fail this test drastically.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim if you really wanted the test to be objective why wouldnt you try to hold it somewhere like North Dakota where Im sure windchills beat where you are Or Kapuskasing Ontario where car Manufacturers test cars in the winter. Why does it need to be your backyard. Your freeze test wouldnt be valid since I have never seen parts on new spas break apart when completely frozen.

This place in Colorado is considered to be the "icebox" of the country. It is very high in the mountains. Even in summer it snows there some times. There is no spa on earth in which the pumps will stay together when completely frozen. The heaters will also crack and the jets will also break. Any parts with solid PVC or Solid Plastic will break. It is the laws of physics.

http://www.soundclick.com/havenhead

[Roger]

blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,

blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,

blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,I'M an IDIOT,

blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,

blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,blah,

Jim, what did you say?

[Pathfinder]

Its not the laws of physics since I have seen many a tub In my 10 years and im pretty sure others have, to where the tub was frozen and nothing blew a part. Why dont ice cube trays blow part when frozen why dont ice packs that are thawed and refrozen multiple times blow apart. Are they defying the laws of physics???

[fingolfin]

Its not the laws of physics since I have seen many a tub In my 10 years and im pretty sure others have, to where the tub was frozen and nothing blew a part. Why dont ice cube trays blow part when frozen why dont ice packs that are thawed and refrozen multiple times blow apart. Are they defying the laws of physics???

For ice cubes trays, there is plenty of room at the top for expansion. Ice packs generally are not filled with water. Water is unique in that is expands when frozen, almost all other substances contract when frozen. Generally if the water has room to expand, nothing bad will happen. The reason why pipes in a house break when they freeze is that they are completely filled with water. When the water freezes it expands and something has got to give, usually it is the pipe.

The reason why water is so unique is due to hydrogen bonding, but I won't go into that.

[Pathfinder]

Yeah you got me on trays. When pipes freeze most of the time its at the joint were it breaks and copper offers no give unlike pvc or vinyl tubing. But Im talking from personal experiences with tubs being compeletly frozen and nothing broke. So am I a liar.

Not to bring Roger in this but im sure he has seen frozen tubs that the pumps and piping havent burst. I may be wrong.

[Saskman]

Jim if you really wanted the test to be objective why wouldnt you try to hold it somewhere like North Dakota where Im sure windchills beat where you are Or Kapuskasing Ontario where car Manufacturers test cars in the winter. Why does it need to be your backyard. Your freeze test wouldnt be valid since I have never seen parts on new spas break apart when completely frozen.

North Dakota....I have to drive 4.5 hours south to get to minot

[Saskman]

You have spammed this all over - but think about it: there is no way in the world that an outdoor test would be fair to all the spas. Not all would get the exact same use, there could be more wind on some than others, more sun or shade on still others, there are about two dozen variables which could easily enter into the picture.

A much simpler and far more accurate test would be to have each manufacturer - starting of course with YOURS - send one or two spas to Exponant.com and have them run the exact same test they ran on the HotSpring tub.

It was scientifically tested just so that it could be repeated on other spas, using carefully monitored and controlled environmental conditions including temperature, pressure and humidity. The tub was even run an exact amount each day, with the cover open a specific amount of time, etc. You couldn't get more accurate if you tried, and you certainly couldn't be anywhere as close to this accurate in your backyard with Steve the Secruity Gaurd watching all night to be sure the neighborhood teenagers don't come have a party in the middle of the night and throw off the whole thing.

Why not send one of your tubs in and have them test it out? It would sure show if there really is a difference in operating costs, and I bet it would cost far less than this 'spa party' you are trying to put together.

The report is undated as I seen it. No mention of cover control. Wind Chill Factor was never accounted for.

[Saskman]

You have spammed this all over - but think about it: there is no way in the world that an outdoor test would be fair to all the spas. Not all would get the exact same use, there could be more wind on some than others, more sun or shade on still others, there are about two dozen variables which could easily enter into the picture.

A much simpler and far more accurate test would be to have each manufacturer - starting of course with YOURS - send one or two spas to Exponant.com and have them run the exact same test they ran on the HotSpring tub.

It was scientifically tested just so that it could be repeated on other spas, using carefully monitored and controlled environmental conditions including temperature, pressure and humidity. The tub was even run an exact amount each day, with the cover open a specific amount of time, etc. You couldn't get more accurate if you tried, and you certainly couldn't be anywhere as close to this accurate in your backyard with Steve the Secruity Gaurd watching all night to be sure the neighborhood teenagers don't come have a party in the middle of the night and throw off the whole thing.

Why not send one of your tubs in and have them test it out? It would sure show if there really is a difference in operating costs, and I bet it would cost far less than this 'spa party' you are trying to put together.

The report is undated as I seen it. No mention of cover control. Wind Chill Factor was never accounted for.

MAybe I have the wrong test....disregard my comment....it was for another that I was given

[Jim_The_Jim]

Its not the laws of physics since I have seen many a tub In my 10 years and im pretty sure others have, to where the tub was frozen and nothing blew a part. Why dont ice cube trays blow part when frozen why dont ice packs that are thawed and refrozen multiple times blow apart. Are they defying the laws of physics???

It has to do with the fill of the pipe and the pressure of the water as it expands. If there is no relief then it breaks things. Back in the Civil war time they had a bunch of cannon balls siting around with black powder in them. Black powder becomes very unstable as it sits around for a long time. So, to destroy these dangerous balls of black powder, they drilled a hole carefully and filled them with water. Then plugged the hole. Set the ball out side in the winter and it cracked open. These were steel balls. There is nothing in this world that can contain the expansion of water, not even diamonds, steel, or titananium. It is "something about the laws of physics."

I think it would be an interesting test.

[Pathfinder]

As I knew it in history classes civil war cannonballs were solid shot not hollow & how could you pour form a closed cannonball with black powder in it and not have it explode. I can see preformed hollow with an opening to put in the powder but not encased. Anyways you keep refering to theory. Theory and practical are two different things. Thats why you see builders laughing at architecs all the time bc in theory what they drew should work but in reality it wont. All I am saying again that there are tubs I have seen completely frozen and nothing burst.