Big Box Stores Vs. The National Brands

[D.P. Roberts]

Okay, there have been enough flames and speculation about this "war" between big box tubs and dealer-sold tubs. personally, I'd like to see some FACTS.

Can anyone PROVE that a Costco tub is as good as a dealer sold tub?

I've seen PLENTY of reasons not to buy a Costco tub, but let's keep those out of this thread. Are there any FACTS in favor of buying a Costco tub? For example, one could show:

1) The insulation is just as good. One's electric bill with a Costco tub will be just as low as with one of the major brands.

2) The engineering is just as good. The plumbing is designed in such a way that water flow from the jets is just as high as that of a national brand.

3) The therapy is just as good. A statistically valid assessment or customer survey shows that the standard jets in a Costco tub feel just as good as those in a national brand.

Those of you who keep saying - OVER AND OVER AGAIN - that the big box tubs are just as good as the national brands have yet to show ONE SHRED OF PROOF that this is so. Here's your chance. Prove it.

[kengorman]

Can anyone PROVE that a Costco tub is as good as a dealer sold tub?

Hi D.P. Roberts,

I think the burden of proof should be on the dealer sold tub. Don't you? As a consumer, the Sundance dealer was not able to "sell" or "prove" to me the additional value of his $8995 Chelsee tub which cost three times as much as the $2995 Infinity Sun Peak Spa (sold by Costco).

I would love to see proof that a dealer tub has three times as much value as the Costco sold Infinity Sun Peak.

Which Costco tub are you referring to? Costco has sold and is selling many different tubs from many different manufacturers. They sell ( or sold ) Infinity, Hydro Spas, Hot Springs, Gatsby, Blue Ridge, Caldera, Keys Backyard, etc.

Are there any FACTS in favor of buying a Costco tub? For example, one could show:

Here are a few FACTS:

1. Infinity Spas sold at Costco cost 1/3 as much as a comparable Sundance Chelsee spa.

2. An Infinity Sun Peak is larger than a Sundance Chelsee spa.

3. An Infinity Sun Peak has more jets than a Sundance Chelsee.

4. An Infinity Sun Peak's motors and pumps are rated higher (both in terms of horsepower and gallons per minute) than the Sundance Chelsee spa.

5. An Infinity Sun Peak uses a Balboa M-7 SUV Control Pack which is the same as found in many dealer spas.

6. An Infinity Sun Peak uses the same Waterway jets as found in many dealer spas.

7. An Infinity Sun Peak uses the same diverters as found in many dealer spas.

8. An Infinity Sun Peak uses the same manifolds as found in many dealer spas.

9. An Infinity Sun Peak uses acrylics from the same manufacturer as found in many dealer spas.

10. An Infinity Sun Peak comes standard with a Prozone CSS-5 ozone unit and the Sundance Chelsee offers Ozone as an added cost option.

11. An Infinity tub can be returned to Costco - No Questions Asked. Ttry that at a dealer.

12. A consumer who purchases a tub from Costco is safe in knowing that Costco will stand behind the tub, regardless of what the manufacturer does. Case-in-point: Costco is paying independent service personnel for service calls made on Hydro Spas tubs.

Regards,

Ken

[mark2550]

D.P. Roberts, one simple question in which I can't find on the websites by most major manufactures.

What is the R-factor of fully foamed insulated tubs on your top 5 or 10 models of hot tubs you would choose from ?

[D.P. Roberts]

Here are a few FACTS:

1. Infinity Spas sold at Costco cost 1/3 as much as a comparable Sundance Chelsee spa.

2. An Infinity Sun Peak is larger than a Sundance Chelsee spa.

3. An Infinity Sun Peak has more jets than a Sundance Chelsee.

4. An Infinity Sun Peak's motors and pumps are rated higher (both in terms of horsepower and gallons per minute) than the Sundance Chelsee spa.

5. An Infinity Sun Peak uses a Balboa M-7 SUV Control Pack which is the same as found in many dealer spas.

6. An Infinity Sun Peak uses the same Waterway jets as found in many dealer spas.

7. An Infinity Sun Peak uses the same diverters as found in many dealer spas.

8. An Infinity Sun Peak uses the same manifolds as found in many dealer spas.

9. An Infinity Sun Peak uses acrylics from the same manufacturer as found in many dealer spas.

10. An Infinity Sun Peak comes standard with a Prozone CSS-5 ozone unit and the Sundance Chelsee offers Ozone as an added cost option.

11. An Infinity tub can be returned to Costco - No Questions Asked. Ttry that at a dealer.

12. A consumer who purchases a tub from Costco is safe in knowing that Costco will stand behind the tub, regardless of what the manufacturer does. Case-in-point: Costco is paying independent service personnel for service calls made on Hydro Spas tubs.

Regards,

Ken

Ken,

This is a good start. Your question on the "burden of proof" is a valid one. I think there are two DIFFERENT questions here: 1) Are "big box" store tubs just as good as the national brands , and 2) Are national brand tubs worth the extra money?

The first question addresses just the manufacture and operation of the tub itself. The second question would include other issues, such as dealer support, shopping experience, etc. So, I thought we'd leave that second question alone for now, and just focus on the tubs themselves.

So, let's leave points 11 and 12 off your list for now- they may be valid, but let's just focus on the tubs themselves. I would also eliminate point #1, "comparable" tubs- we're still trying to establish whether they're comparable or not.

So, for the rest of your points:

2. Volume: this is true. Buying a "dealer" tub does not get you more water or a higher seating capacity.

3. More jets - I can't agree with this one, as more jets is not necessarily better. All things being equal (pumps, plumbing, etc.), a tub with more jets will have less water pressure per jet.

4. Pump ratings - good point. Where did you get the flow ratings for these pumps? I've not seen that printed anywhere.

5. Control pack - good point. If they're the same, you're not getting any value there. However, you've been using the Sundance Chelsee as a comparison. From what I've read, the Invensys controller Sundance uses is very good (but not as good as their 800 series).

6, 7, 8, and 9 - the same jets, diverters, manifolds, and acrylic. Spas lose power with their plumbing, so if they have the same diverters & manifolds, the net loss of water flow is the same. The Sundance Chelsee does have 8 proprietary Fluidix jets, which the Infinity does not have, but it does look like many of the other jets aren't particularly "special".

So, in conclusion, let's say that the Sun Peak and the Chelsee have the following in common:

Large volume of water

Similar pump ratings

Similar diverters and manifolds

Similar (or even identical) shells

Many (but not all) similar jets

The following may or may not be true:

Different jets (feel & function of proprietary Sundance jets)

Control packs

I would also be interested in hearing about the following:

Engineering of the plumbing systems

Seating & jet layout

filtration system

insulation and operating costs

I like how Ken picked two particular models for a comparison (the Sundance Chelsee and the Infinity Sun Peak). This makes for a true apples to apples comparison.

[D.P. Roberts]

D.P. Roberts, one simple question in which I can't find on the websites by most major manufactures.

What is the R-factor of fully foamed insulated tubs on your top 5 or 10 models of hot tubs you would choose from ?

I think the R-value would be tough to evaluate- the R-value may be different on each side depending on the space the equipment takes up, where the plumbing is, the equipment compartment, etc. As a whole, I think overall energy usage / operating costs would be a better indicator.

[mark2550]

Not to disagree but overall energy use would have alot to do with the following factors such as ambient air temp., wind if the tub is not enclosed , usage of time in the spa, etc. but a r-value would give us some type of indication what a fully foamed tub has to offer as opposed to an insufficient insulated tub. thank's for your reply I'm still in debate.

[itsallgood]

For the record, I purchased a Caldera "Hawaiian" from Costco in 1996. It's still running fine. I sold it to a friend when I replaced it this year. The only things I needed to address during my ownership were to replace the cover, replace the ozonator, and replace the high/low pump switch.

[TravelingSpaGuy]

R ratings is impossible to gage in a spa if it is completely full foamed. The reason is the thicker area of foam the larger the R rating compared to thinner areas. I hate these arguements though, people are always trying to justify there decision so they claim its less profit not less tub...oh well let em buy what they can afford...they know deep inside they could have something nicer if they wanted to pay for it...same thing with their car, watch, house and everything else they own. Box store tubs take things out of the tub you cant see, insulation, quality control, grades of plastics in which they buy. They also typically dont spend the money to have any inovations to the spa...meaning they will use old technology given to them by third party companies opposed to having any of there own. I have yet to see a fully insulated spa come from costco...the funny thing is everyone talks about how costco sells hot springs, and they kind of sell an old version hot springs dealers dont sell much of in the classic series for the SAME price as hot springs dealers sell it for. Guess what...Costco doesnt sell hardly any of them, now that would probably be the best built tub in the costco line but people dont buy it because its more expensive and has less jets then the sun peak spa....WEIRD. Also compare other things costco sells apples to apples and you will see price is usually the same or very close to the same...SOMETIMES CHEAPER THEN COSTCO.

I am also sick of the "they will take the spa back no questions asked"....I would love to hear from someone who took there spa back with no questions asked...because I have heard plenty of horor stories involving the quality of these spas but yet to have someone tell me they took it back.

[TravelingSpaGuy]

How much did that Caldera cost you?

[deepchillie]

UMMM, TravelingSpaGuy.... In you last post you wrote

"I am also sick of the "they will take the spa back no questions asked"....I would love to hear from someone who took there spa back with no questions asked...because I have heard plenty of horor stories involving the quality of these spas but yet to have someone tell me they took it back. "

You dont hear from them because they are happy with their tub, they like their tub and they are IN their TUB!!

[thestallion]

I am going to be blunt here but this argument is only for the very slow, to think that your 2995.00 tub is the same as the 8000.00 Sundance is simply silly. Why do they make Bentley's and Maybachs and BMW's and KIA'S and Hyundai, there all just cars with 4 tires and a steering wheel, Right?... No some are simply nicer and more comfortable and offer better dealer support. Who in their right mind thinks that there is some miracle to being able to build things of equal quality, warranty, comfort, efficiency, support for a third of the price, it simply does not happen on this planet. Sometimes there are rare exceptions but they are few and far between and its not happening with spas.

[D.P. Roberts]

I know there are a lot of reasons for and against big box tubs ASIDE from the tub itself (returns vs. dealer support, etc.). I was thinking of starting another thread just for those. But for this thread alone, can we at least stick to the actual, component vs. component, part vs. part equipment of the tubs themselves?

[Roger]

I am going to be blunt here but this argument is only for the very slow, to think that your 2995.00 tub is the same as the 8000.00 Sundance is simply silly. Why do they make Bentley's and Maybachs and BMW's and KIA'S and Hyundai, there all just cars with 4 tires and a steering wheel, Right?... No some are simply nicer and more comfortable and offer better dealer support. Who in their right mind thinks that there is some miracle to being able to build things of equal quality, warranty, comfort, efficiency, support for a third of the price, it simply does not happen on this planet. Sometimes there are rare exceptions but they are few and far between and its not happening with spas.

I agree, a Sundance has a proven record for longevity, the other...well I think there is one guy around who has a box tub on this board that is almost 2 years old. If a big box tub lasts for 5 years and cost 3 grand and a major brand lasts for 15 years and cost 8 grand. Which is the better deal?

Same jets and plumbing and manifolds????? Who is qualified to say this? Do they have a waterway catolog in front of them? I do, and I see about 30 different manifolds ranging in price from about 80 bucks to 390 dollars, which one does the Sun Peak have? I also see about 150-200 different jets, some look exactly the same but cost about double each other, which exact part numbers are on the Sun Peak versus the Sundance. I think the burden of proof lies in the statement. Heres my statement. I don't know what jets parts or manifolds are in the Sun Peak or the Sundance until I take them apart for repair, and I don't care. But this is American and no one gives nothing away for no profit, If the Sun Peak costs less it is simply because some corners have been cut to get the price down and still make an exceptable profit. There is less mark up in it than a dealer spa but it is not the same spa. Anyone who thinks so, just wait 5 years or so.

[kengorman]

I am also sick of the "they will take the spa back no questions asked"....I would love to hear from someone who took there spa back with no questions asked...because I have heard plenty of horor stories involving the quality of these spas but yet to have someone tell me they took it back.

TSG,

This guy took his spa back 2-3 weeks ago. I've provided a link to the exact post below.

I just returned my Hydro Legend 3 to Costco in Edmonton, Alberta Canada.

Ken

[itsallgood]

How much did that Caldera cost you?

$2500.00

[TinyBubbles]

I think the popularity of spas at Costco and Sam's is a fairly recent phenomenon. Therefore, it's going to take some time to determine their value and rank in the hot tub kingdom. The only tubs that I could personally rate as poor quality is Leisure Bay. I know several people that have bought them. Right now, none of them are in operation. They seem to break down alot. I don't really understand why nobody fixes them. Is it because they don't have a significant enough investment in them to worry about it? Is someone that spends less money on a leisure bay an impulse shopper and they weren't really that interested in hot tubbing? Have they been worn down by constant problems and difficulty getting service? Based on their experiences, I knew to stay away from leisure bay. I hope to personally know some people that buy their tubs from the big box stores, so I can see how things go. That's going to be the only way to know. I'm not sure I could trust the reports given on this forum. I think that costco and sam's have helped the spa industry. We might be roaming the aisles and see that big pretty spa sitting on it's side and think "hmmmmmmm, I might like to own one of those". That's how it started with us. We've always thought about owning one, but seeing it in the store, time after time, really gave us a push. How many of us just happen to be in spa stores? So, it's good advertising for the industry in general. Once the seed is planted, we can all go about owning a tub in our own way. Wether, through a dealer, big box store, or buying a used tub. Comparing component to component is hard, because who really knows what is on a tub from the stores website. That is one thing that concerned me. The descriptions are very generic. As many of you know, how a tub is manufactured is important too. I know from pools, the type of glue used on fittings is important. What if the parts are the same, but one manufacturer uses the cheap glue?

[kengorman]

I am also sick of the "they will take the spa back no questions asked"....I would love to hear from someone who took there spa back with no questions asked...because I have heard plenty of horor stories involving the quality of these spas but yet to have someone tell me they took it back.

Hi TSG,

Here's an update. I found 4 instances of people returning their tubs to Costco. I couldn't find any postings of people attempting to return their tubs, but ran into a hassle.

Costco even reimbursed the expenses incurred to get the tub back. I provided links to the exact posts if anyone wants to go back and read all the details. I've only included the relevant text below.

The common theme of these 4 is they all purchased Hydro Spa tubs. I want to emphasize that not all tubs sold through Costco are the same. In an earlier post, I listed all the various manufacturers of tubs that Costco has sold or is selling.

Regards,

Ken

I just returned my Hydro Legend 3 to Costco in Edmonton, Alberta Canada.

Costco let me realize my mistake and return the POS

Post

Ok going to add some gas to the fire. As you all know I returned a Hydrospa.

Post

As some of you may know... returned the Legend to Costco... after a crap load of problems and shitty construction.

Post

[thestallion]

I am going to be blunt here but this argument is only for the very slow, to think that your 2995.00 tub is the same as the 8000.00 Sundance is simply silly. Why do they make Bentley's and Maybachs and BMW's and KIA'S and Hyundai, there all just cars with 4 tires and a steering wheel, Right?... No some are simply nicer and more comfortable and offer better dealer support. Who in their right mind thinks that there is some miracle to being able to build things of equal quality, warranty, comfort, efficiency, support for a third of the price, it simply does not happen on this planet. Sometimes there are rare exceptions but they are few and far between and its not happening with spas.

I agree, a Sundance has a proven record for longevity, the other...well I think there is one guy around who has a box tub on this board that is almost 2 years old. If a big box tub lasts for 5 years and cost 3 grand and a major brand lasts for 15 years and cost 8 grand. Which is the better deal?

Same jets and plumbing and manifolds????? Who is qualified to say this? Do they have a waterway catolog in front of them? I do, and I see about 30 different manifolds ranging in price from about 80 bucks to 390 dollars, which one does the Sun Peak have? I also see about 150-200 different jets, some look exactly the same but cost about double each other, which exact part numbers are on the Sun Peak versus the Sundance. I think the burden of proof lies in the statement. Heres my statement. I don't know what jets parts or manifolds are in the Sun Peak or the Sundance until I take them apart for repair, and I don't care. But this is American and no one gives nothing away for no profit, If the Sun Peak costs less it is simply because some corners have been cut to get the price down and still make an exceptable profit. There is less mark up in it than a dealer spa but it is not the same spa. Anyone who thinks so, just wait 5 years or so.

Rodger,

You are exactly right, they may be a common brand of components but that does not make them the same components, I do no think that there is anything wrong with buying a tub from a Big Box store but just go into with both eyes open and understand it is not the same thing but It may be just fine for the one who's buying it. I like watches, I will spend thousands on them (when I can) but I am not buying the cheap $100.00 knock off for me I like the real deal and I do know the difference.

[Pathfinder]

The way marketing is going these days is "well it has the same stuff inside so its just as good" The prime example is the Hyundai Azera commercial where they compare it to the Lexus. The say it has all the same stuff as a Lexus but it costs $20,000 less. For anyone who would do the research knows they arent even a close comparison. Its just a brutal marketing tactic that people seem to believe. That is exactly what is going on here.

[thestallion]

The way marketing is going these days is "well it has the same stuff inside so its just as good" The prime example is the Hyundai Azera commercial where they compare it to the Lexus. The say it has all the same stuff as a Lexus but it costs $20,000 less. For anyone who would do the research knows they arent even a close comparison. Its just a brutal marketing tactic that people seem to believe. That is exactly what is going on here.

Exactly and on its own the Azera may be a fine vehicle but to try and sell as being the same as the Lexus is silly but it is more silly to believe it is the same and buy it for that reason. Buy it because its what you want, it fits your budget, etc, but don't think your getting a Lexus for a Hyundai price.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Exactly and on its own the Azera may be a fine vehicle but to try and sell as being the same as the Lexus is silly but it is more silly to believe it is the same and buy it for that reason. Buy it because its what you want, it fits your budget, etc, but don't think your getting a Lexus for a Hyundai price.

The only problem I have with the typical comparisons made to cars is that in the spa industry has a few "Lexus-like" brands and some Hyundaish brands as well (and Chevys and BMWs) but we've also got some Yugos out there too. I think the car industry has done a good job of bringing up the bottom end in quality in the past 20 years but in the spa industry there remains a very real gap quality wise from teh top to the middle to the bottom.

[thestallion]

Exactly and on its own the Azera may be a fine vehicle but to try and sell as being the same as the Lexus is silly but it is more silly to believe it is the same and buy it for that reason. Buy it because its what you want, it fits your budget, etc, but don't think your getting a Lexus for a Hyundai price.

The only problem I have with the typical comparisons made to cars is that in the spa industry has a few "Lexus-like" brands and some Hyundaish brands as well (and Chevys and BMWs) but we've also got some Yugos out there too. I think the car industry has done a good job of bringing up the bottom end in quality in the past 20 years but in the spa industry there remains a very real gap quality wise from teh top to the middle to the bottom.

I guess that's my point, buy the spa you want but you are only fooling yourself if you think you are getting a upper line spa at a Costco price, I agree with using cars as a comparison but for different reasons but it is something that most people can relate and identify with. Most car buyers never buy the KIA and think it is the same as the BMW they understand the difference but it still works for them and that's fine.

Just to add since this does come up. People want to know spa 'invoice" cost just like cars, but when you buy your car for $100.00 over invoice do you really believe that the dealer is really making a $100.00 and your sitting in this massive showroom with flat screen TVs all around and a staff of 200 people and there in business to try and earn that hundred dollars, Today's car market is built on whats called the back-end thats where the money is made and its fine they need and should be able to make a profit but spas have no "back-end" what you make upfront is what you make less service calls.

[Spa-Zoro!]

And once again, derailed by one party or the other with nothing to do with the original topic. Of course your not getting the same spa for triple the price of a Costco type (when you buy from a dealer), but what exactly are you getting from one place or the other?

I think the idea was to put aside brand bias, and personal preference on the sales philosophy and compare spa to spa? Great idea, but there are to many variables. Would almost need a thread per discussion, maybe one a week where actual OWNERS chime in. Maybe the original poster could pick two brands to get the ball rolling so consumers can get some good hands on feed back on what their purchase is like after the sale?

A post that described the actual differences in what you get for your extra 1, 2, 4, 8k etc would be very helpful. I for one, would be happy to spend 500 more for more pressure, someone may be happy to pay less for a spa they can tinker with.

It would need to be heavily moderated. Subjective info would need left out, yup local service company 103 may in fact service more Infinity spas the Hot Springs, but by the common voice of this community thats because of the outstanding dealer support of said brand (or any dealer brand). Its not relevant. Id also be interested in some past data. Lets look at Gatsby Spas that someone mentioned. Their mass retailer spas are 10 years old or so, moved over 75000 spas from Sams, Lowes, etc, where are these spas at now? There is market data that could show the value and quality of these "cheaper" spas, why dont we ever see anyone talking about it? They cant all possibly be in the landfill, and I cant believe in that cross section there isnt one disgruntled customer, what gives on those?

[thestallion]

And again here lays the problem, the spa market is very small and is not federal regulated as the car industry is. So all these hard documented facts that people would love to see do not exist, again is a very small industry. And how do you really explain to people the "feel" of jets, diverters, the cabinet quality the over all construction of something it is hard to do unless you have two products side by side to fully appreciate the differences.

Just to add I don't the thread is hi jacked it has been asked before and outside of opinions there are no concrete documents to prove anything.

[Roger]

Lets look at Gatsby Spas that someone mentioned. Their mass retailer spas are 10 years old or so, moved over 75000 spas from Sams, Lowes, etc, where are these spas at now? There is market data that could show the value and quality of these "cheaper" spas, why dont we ever see anyone talking about it? They cant all possibly be in the landfill, and I cant believe in that cross section there isnt one disgruntled customer, what gives on those?

I can personaly account for about 100 or so of these tubs. And the ones I have seen are mostly in the landfill. I do however have a few that are still running in my territory. Most make it for 6-8 years. A couple a little longer. Sams Club, one of my best service advocates.