New Guy Very Confused

[Tomab]

Also it has other obvious benefits like getting inside the cabinet to upgrade the spa, add lights/stereo/jets at a later time or to carry out repairs to leaks that can happen and anyone who says they dont just do a search on here for threads regarding leaks on full foam spas and the problems they have had first locating them and then trying to fix them.

Anyway just wanted to give my opinion and good luck with your search.

Upgrade? Like drilling holes in the shell to add jets and manifolds and modifying the plumbing? Hmmmmm, seems this is also a sales sling? Drill holes and run wires for more lights?

Roger, what really is it about the Arctic name you don't like! Just about every benefit that Arctic has with their design you put it off as "sales spin" or "sales sling". And when some actually does see or believe the benefits of certain design aspects of an Arctic spa you say we "have been misled" or " are sadly being fooled". What gives?!

This latest one you apparantly don't believe either about the drilling of holes in the shell. I can attest to usefullness. My dealer had to add an ozone system after it was delivered to me because they(the dealer not Arctic) forgot to order the tub with the ozone already installed. It took the dealer about 1 1/2 hours to do. Drill hole and modify the plumbing was very easy due to the fact that there was no foam to deal with. I watched him do it. I obviously wasn't happy about my dealer forgeting to order this but I would have been even more upset seeing him dig out foam on my brand new tub. I'm not making this up. You can check my past posts on this forum. Could this be done with a full foam spa...sure, but not nearly as easily.

I know everyone has their own opinion and that is great, but to trash almost every design from a certain quality manufacturer kind of makes me wonder, especially when certain things do make sense......at least in my opinion.

I must say I have no vested interest in ANY manufacturer and maybe should just shut my mouth but I just think Arctic is sometimes given a bad rap based on some preconceived notion that they are out to scam everyone....maybe there has been some unscupulous sales people in the past but thats not the manufactures fault nor is it limited only to Arctic.

jeffinwhitby, sorry if it seems like we are getting off topic from your original question,,,, just trying to sort things out.

The opinions expressed on this thread represent those of individual authors and unless clearly labeled as such do not represent the opinions or policies of any pool and spa forum member.

I think I may be done here with this thread...At some point I may need some advice on the forum and Roger may be the only one who knows the answer.....no hard feelings

[Roger]

Roger, what really is it about the Arctic name you don't like! Just about every benefit that Arctic has with their design you put it off as "sales spin" or "sales sling". And when some actually does see or believe the benefits of certain design aspects of an Arctic spa you say we "have been misled" or " are sadly being fooled". What gives?!

Read carefully folks, I never said I didn't like Arctic. They have done it different than several major brands. They are not the only one who use thermal pane insulation effectivly. In my post above I stated my reasons for not liking the tubs (confining seating, noisier than a bunch of others and overpriced) remember I have seen them, soaked in them and fixed them. For my money there are more comfortable, quieter and better priced units out there that are just as effecient. The "just makes sence" sales line doesn't sway my opinion because ease of repair has never effected me. I did 1 in foam repair in 2009 out of a total of 71 repairs (down from previous years) and over the 10 or so years I have been repairing spas never once, not once, have I said "boy am I glad there's no foam on the shell, makes it so much easier to repair" I bend over and stick my head in the equipment bay for repair on an Arctic, just like I do when I repair a Hot Springs spa!! And I have added Ozone on FF tubs also, easy. done in the equipment bay. But most tubs are made Ozone ready now. And why would anyone want to add an overpriced stereo to a hot tub? For half the cost, a couple outdoor speakers and bluetooth your I-Pod to a exsisting 1500 watt stereo system. Last longer, will music your whole house and deck areas and work for your surround system for your bluray video system.

Your opinion can be about what you feel are benifits. But don't forget mine can be about there mediocracy.

[Water Boy]

Roger, what really is it about the Arctic name you don't like! Just about every benefit that Arctic has with their design you put it off as "sales spin" or "sales sling". And when some actually does see or believe the benefits of certain design aspects of an Arctic spa you say we "have been misled" or " are sadly being fooled". What gives?!

Read carefully folks, I never said I didn't like Arctic. They have done it different than several major brands. They are not the only one who use thermal pane insulation effectivly. In my post above I stated my reasons for not liking the tubs (confining seating, noisier than a bunch of others and overpriced) remember I have seen them, soaked in them and fixed them. For my money there are more comfortable, quieter and better priced units out there that are just as effecient. The "just makes sence" sales line doesn't sway my opinion because ease of repair has never effected me. I did 1 in foam repair in 2009 out of a total of 71 repairs (down from previous years) and over the 10 or so years I have been repairing spas never once, not once, have I said "boy am I glad there's no foam on the shell, makes it so much easier to repair" I bend over and stick my head in the equipment bay for repair on an Arctic, just like I do when I repair a Hot Springs spa!! And I have added Ozone on FF tubs also, easy. done in the equipment bay. But most tubs are made Ozone ready now. And why would anyone want to add an overpriced stereo to a hot tub? For half the cost, a couple outdoor speakers and bluetooth your I-Pod to a exsisting 1500 watt stereo system. Last longer, will music your whole house and deck areas and work for your surround system for your bluray video system.

Your opinion can be about what you feel are benifits. But don't forget mine can be about there mediocracy.

I have had 3-4 customers over the last year add the Aquatremor system to their spa. If they want to buy it, I will sell it. Also, the Aquatremor design isnt available on most spas as you cant attach the transducers to the shell if their is foam on the backside. You do sound bitter in this thread though Roger. Whats the deal? Its not like you hate Arctic Spas. You have gone on record before as listing them in your top five, but it sure doesnt appear that way.

[Roger]

I have had 3-4 customers over the last year add the Aquatremor system to their spa. If they want to buy it, I will sell it. Also, the Aquatremor design isnt available on most spas as you cant attach the transducers to the shell if their is foam on the backside. You do sound bitter in this thread though Roger. Whats the deal? Its not like you hate Arctic Spas. You have gone on record before as listing them in your top five, but it sure doesnt appear that way.

If you knew how many times someone said to me "it just makes sence" you'd puke to. It makes sence when you leave a bunch of holes in it. Arctic is in my top 5. Remember years ago when hundreds of folks were coming here claiming that Arctic spas was the best thing since sliced bread and they were so effecient they had plans of selling power back to the grid the more they used there spa!!!

A mastefully design "study" a sales pitch of superiority and "it just makes sence" sickening.

Hey I blasted Hot Springs "best buy" award also and many other sales spins. In my regular job I eat salesman for lunch everyday, I am in purchasing.

[salp]

selling power back to the grid!??.... bwahahahahahahaaaaa

[waylon33]

I have had 3-4 customers over the last year add the Aquatremor system to their spa. If they want to buy it, I will sell it. Also, the Aquatremor design isnt available on most spas as you cant attach the transducers to the shell if their is foam on the backside. You do sound bitter in this thread though Roger. Whats the deal? Its not like you hate Arctic Spas. You have gone on record before as listing them in your top five, but it sure doesnt appear that way.

If you knew how many times someone said to me "it just makes sence" you'd puke to. It makes sence when you leave a bunch of holes in it. Arctic is in my top 5. Remember years ago when hundreds of folks were coming here claiming that Arctic spas was the best thing since sliced bread and they were so effecient they had plans of selling power back to the grid the more they used there spa!!!

A mastefully design "study" a sales pitch of superiority and "it just makes sence" sickening.

Hey I blasted Hot Springs "best buy" award also and many other sales spins. In my regular job I eat salesman for lunch everyday, I am in purchasing.

You are in purchasing! Ohh, Im scared!!!!!!!!! Just kidding of course!

What would you like salesman to talk about if everything they say is salespin. Are we not allowed to talk about our benefits of our brands? If not how would anyone interested in a hot tub know the differences?

[Roger]

You are in purchasing! Ohh, Im scared!!!!!!!!! Just kidding of course!

What would you like salesman to talk about if everything they say is salespin. Are we not allowed to talk about our benefits of our brands? If not how would anyone interested in a hot tub know the differences?

Yea I guess you'd have to take the differences, and then turn and spin them into benifits and stretch them, leave a few details out and all that stuff in order to be branded a salesman and have something to talk about!

Maybe comfort, support and price. That's what would work for me.

[waylon33]

You are in purchasing! Ohh, Im scared!!!!!!!!! Just kidding of course!

What would you like salesman to talk about if everything they say is salespin. Are we not allowed to talk about our benefits of our brands? If not how would anyone interested in a hot tub know the differences?

Yea I guess you'd have to take the differences, and then turn and spin them into benifits and stretch them, leave a few details out and all that stuff in order to be branded a salesman and have something to talk about!

Maybe comfort, support and price. That's what would work for me.

Yep nothing inside the cabinet matters! I wouldnt want to talk about all the important stuff that keeps your spa from costing so much money later on!

[spawn]

You are in purchasing! Ohh, Im scared!!!!!!!!! Just kidding of course!

What would you like salesman to talk about if everything they say is salespin. Are we not allowed to talk about our benefits of our brands? If not how would anyone interested in a hot tub know the differences?

Yea I guess you'd have to take the differences, and then turn and spin them into benifits and stretch them, leave a few details out and all that stuff in order to be branded a salesman and have something to talk about!

Maybe comfort, support and price. That's what would work for me.

Yep nothing inside the cabinet matters! I wouldnt want to talk about all the important stuff that keeps your spa from costing so much money later on!

waylon33 - Arctic is one of the few major spas that I have not been to see/wet test, although there is a dealer near my area. Could you please tell me the reasons that I should purchase an arctic spa and list them in order of importance. Thnak you!

[waylon33]

You are in purchasing! Ohh, Im scared!!!!!!!!! Just kidding of course!

What would you like salesman to talk about if everything they say is salespin. Are we not allowed to talk about our benefits of our brands? If not how would anyone interested in a hot tub know the differences?

Yea I guess you'd have to take the differences, and then turn and spin them into benifits and stretch them, leave a few details out and all that stuff in order to be branded a salesman and have something to talk about!

Maybe comfort, support and price. That's what would work for me.

Yep nothing inside the cabinet matters! I wouldnt want to talk about all the important stuff that keeps your spa from costing so much money later on!

waylon33 - Arctic is one of the few major spas that I have not been to see/wet test, although there is a dealer near my area. Could you please tell me the reasons that I should purchase an arctic spa and list them in order of importance. Thnak you!

Not in order of importance because I believe these are all equally important

Servicablity, energy efficiency, the forever floor, castcore cover, threaded jets, no directional jets all of our jets spin or rotate as the pumps are turned on. Plus the owners of Arctic Spas are very innovative and are always looking to improve their product, one of the owners actually frequents the forum. Most importantly though wet test the spa and be comfortable with your dealer.

[James Keirstead]

Hey Everyone!

Sorry I have been away awhile. I was at our international dealer conference in Ireland and picked up a nasty cold that I am just getting over.

I just want to thank all of you who have nice things to say about Arctic Spas. We do our best to produce the best product we can. I am appreciative to all the great people who decide to buy our product and I appreciate the retailers who choose to sell them. I am not going to wade into the debate about manufacturing methods, except to say that we feel we use the best materials available to our industry, we have a proven method of production that produces a high quality, efficient spa and we continue to focus on research and development to not only make our product better, but make spas better overall.

We are committed to supporting our dealers and end consumers alike, and we believe our commitment to even better support operations is important to supporting both over the long haul. And we are in it for the long haul.

Kind regards,

James

[waylon33]

Hey Everyone!

Sorry I have been away awhile. I was at our international dealer conference in Ireland and picked up a nasty cold that I am just getting over.

I just want to thank all of you who have nice things to say about Arctic Spas. We do our best to produce the best product we can. I am appreciative to all the great people who decide to buy our product and I appreciate the retailers who choose to sell them. I am not going to wade into the debate about manufacturing methods, except to say that we feel we use the best materials available to our industry, we have a proven method of production that produces a high quality, efficient spa and we continue to focus on research and development to not only make our product better, but make spas better overall.

We are committed to supporting our dealers and end consumers alike, and we believe our commitment to even better support operations is important to supporting both over the long haul. And we are in it for the long haul.

Kind regards,

James

spawn,

Like I was saying! James is a very large reason why I sell and believe in Arctic Spas. I have been with them from practically day one, and James is a HUGE reason why. They are always just a phone call or email away, and produce a product that features state of the art technology.

[Roger]

Yep nothing inside the cabinet matters! I wouldnt want to talk about all the important stuff that keeps your spa from costing so much money later on!

And so you know the Arctic is more energy effecient than Coast and Sundance? You also have facts proving that it costs less later on? I'm assuming repairs? If you tell the customer it is, then your spinning!

[waylon33]

Yep nothing inside the cabinet matters! I wouldnt want to talk about all the important stuff that keeps your spa from costing so much money later on!

And so you know the Arctic is more energy effecient than Coast and Sundance? You also have facts proving that it costs less later on? I'm assuming repairs? If you tell the customer it is, then your spinning!

Where have I stated it as fact that Arctics are way more energy efficient than other spas. I open up the cabinet doors and let the customer see for themselves! I dont spin Roger, seems like the only guy spinning here is yourself against the Arctic product! Anyways back to spinning, ahem selling spas!

[Roger]

Where have I stated it as fact that Arctics are way more energy efficient than other spas. I open up the cabinet doors and let the customer see for themselves! I dont spin Roger, seems like the only guy spinning here is yourself against the Arctic product! Anyways back to spinning, ahem selling spas!

Now there's a sneaky one "way more efficient than other spas" Is it as efficient? Are the other spa's more efficient? You have no clue so that makes it what?

Keep diggin a hole!!

[Water Boy]

Where have I stated it as fact that Arctics are way more energy efficient than other spas. I open up the cabinet doors and let the customer see for themselves! I dont spin Roger, seems like the only guy spinning here is yourself against the Arctic product! Anyways back to spinning, ahem selling spas!

Now there's a sneaky one "way more efficient than other spas" Is it as efficient? Are the other spa's more efficient? You have no clue so that makes it what?

Keep diggin a hole!!

He never said that Roger and you keep implying that he did. I think maybe you just skimmed his post and didnt read the whole thing. This thread is really headed no where at this point.

[waylon33]

Where have I stated it as fact that Arctics are way more energy efficient than other spas. I open up the cabinet doors and let the customer see for themselves! I dont spin Roger, seems like the only guy spinning here is yourself against the Arctic product! Anyways back to spinning, ahem selling spas!

Now there's a sneaky one "way more efficient than other spas" Is it as efficient? Are the other spa's more efficient? You have no clue so that makes it what?

Keep diggin a hole!!

Count me in the confused category Roger because I have NO IDEA what your post is trying to say!

Back to digging!

[spawn]

waylon33 - Arctic is one of the few major spas that I have not been to see/wet test, although there is a dealer near my area. Could you please tell me the reasons that I should purchase an arctic spa and list them in order of importance. Thnak you!

Not in order of importance because I believe these are all equally important

Servicablity, energy efficiency, the forever floor, castcore cover, threaded jets, no directional jets all of our jets spin or rotate as the pumps are turned on. Plus the owners of Arctic Spas are very innovative and are always looking to improve their product, one of the owners actually frequents the forum. Most importantly though wet test the spa and be comfortable with your dealer.

Thanks for the reply waylon33.

Looking at Arctic, I can see that it is more serviceable with removable panels and access to plumbing all around. Some have said that the vast majority of problems are in the equipment bay, but no doubt if there is a plumbing problem outside the equpment bay, it would be easier to access than on a full foam tub.

I am not sure about the energy efficiency and don't want to start a another full foam vs thermopane debate. I understand that there is no documentation to indicate that either full foam or thermopane is more efficient. I saw your exchange with Roger about letting the customer look inside and conclude that thermopane is better, but frankily, I would conclude the opposite. To be fair, I should see in person.

The forever floor looks like a good thing. I know some other mfg have an integral synthetic base. It appears that the forever floor has some kind of additional support such that it can just be placed on lawn - is this true? This could be uesful for someone who wants to place the tub on lawn and not install a base or have paving. Perhaps not as valuable for someone placing a tub on a deck or paving, but the synth floor would still be good. I guess some buy a poly base system to set under a spa rather than do gravel or concrete, but not needed with arctic.

Castcore cover sounds nice with an attempt to eliminate the problem of soggy covers which compromise performance and necessitate replacement. Overlap at spa top is good (others have too). Is insulation value the highest compared to other covers? It appears to be backed up by warranty - is the 3 year warranty the longest in the industry?

Jets - Just speaking personally, I have found many of the basic jets to be satisfactory and have been a little disappointed in some of the "special feature" jets, expecting more from them. Would have to try arctic to see if they are truly any different.

Did not notice circ pumps mentioned on the arctic site as basic feature or option. Did I miss them - do you generally provide them?

I am just looking for a simple spa. I find that I like to use the jets for a while and will move to work jets from feet up calves and thighs / hammies and lower to upper back but then just like quiet moving water to relax in a seat w/o focused ongoing jetting.

[waylon33]

Spawn, sounds like you are doing your research! I like that and after reading your posts I can tell you will make a wise decision in your purchase. Be sure to do lots of research on your local dealer as well to make sure they are as good as the product.

As far as energy efficiency, Arctic in my opinion is as efficient as anyone. I cant say who is more efficient than the next because no studies have been done to prove that. But, Arctics method puts them up there with the best for sure. The best thing about our insulation system is if you live in a cold climate where power outages are an issue you can rest assured that your Arctic is fine for several days in subzero temps without power and full of hot water. This HAS been proven. Once you see them in person you will understand further.

The forever floor is a great thing to have on a spa, it can basically be placed anywhere in the backyard with the only requirement being that the surface is level. It has many benefits, one being that the floor wont rot out over time, because its made out of very durable and strong materials.

The castcore cover is an upgraded cover like many sell that is thicker and wrapped in mylovac on the interior portion of the cover. This helps in preventing water absorption of the cover, which will help keep your spa warm and cover dry.

The jets are important because ALL of our jets oscillate as the water is forced through. This provides a nice massage on your backs, legs, knees. Some manafucturers offer a mixture of oscillating jets and what some call "bullet" jets. The bullet jets just shoot straight streams of water that cant be adjust flow wise and actually cause itching and irritation of the skin. Little therapy value is provided. Many manufacturers do it the right way like Arctic, but some of the less expensive spas will have lots of jets with many being the bullet style.

One of my favorite things about the Arctic Spa is the fact that all the models are offered in several jetting packages. Each jetting package is built with the same quality and are offered with the same warranty coverage. So basically you can get a simple Arctic Spa in the Prestige Series with the same piece of mind warranty of one of the fully loaded models

Best thing you can do though is check em out, wet test, and be comfortable with your dealer!

[pathwaydave]

You should stay away from Coast if after-sales support is of any value to you. I bought my Coast Manhattan 4 years ago and it's had a lot of trouble from buggy software to failing control panels (those problems took months to resolve, each). Right now I have a problem with one of the pump motors generating electrical "noise" that can be heard as buzzing on several appliances in the house. The dealer I bought it from switched to another brand a couple of years ago and the Coast factory won't answer any of my email questions. The new dealer doesn't seem too interested either and doesn't think there's anything wrong with the pump. Glad I paid extra for the 5-year warranty!! The coast dealer who posted was right -- they do make a good spa. I really like the design and features, but the tub's useless and a waste of space and money when you can't get support.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

And you wanted an un biased opinion on this forum. Both Arctic and Jacuzzi make a good tub, both have their faults and so on. It comes down to what is best for you in all aspects. I personally like Arctic better out of the 2 from my own experiences, I don't sell either, I sell another brand. Good luck

[poolandspadude]

go with jacuzzi or sundance...

And you wanted an un biased opinion on this forum. Both Arctic and Jacuzzi make a good tub, both have their faults and so on. It comes down to what is best for you in all aspects. I personally like Arctic better out of the 2 from my own experiences, I don't sell either, I sell another brand. Good luck

[hot_water]

Someone pointed out that all spa pumps end up heating the water. This is true. The energy that the pump imparts to the water is ultimately converted to heat.

The difference with the Arctic, and other well-done perimeter insulated spas, is that the WASTE heat of the motor is more effectively used. I would guess that the Arctic pump on low speed draws maybe 4.5 or 5 amps. 20% of this or thereabouts is loss - that is, it isn't used to pump water at all. It's the heat (and a tiny bit of noise energy) lost by the motor and pump.

This loss amounts to about 1 amp at 220V. Considering power factor, the amount of power, which is all dissipated into the inside of the cabinet, it on the order of 200W. Someone said that the Arctic pump runs for 8 hours... so that would be 1.6 kW-hours of energy that's dissipated into the interior of the cabinet.

This is about the equivalent of a 5kW heater running for between 15 and 20 minutes, more or less, depending on the Arctic's actual pump power on low spped and its efficiency. I'm just guessing at what seem to be reasonable numbers.

Now with the Arctic or other (good) perimeter spa, the waste energy can help keep the air space in the cabinet at a high temperature. If the temp inside is high, it seriously retards the heat loss from the water. 200W for 8 hours inside the cabinet ought to do a good job at warning up that space, as long as the perimeter insulation is decent and does a good job of holding the heat inside. Considering that the perimeter insulation is in place, the air temp inside the cabinet is going to be quite warm anyway, just because the water at 100-104F will keep that air pretty warm, pumps or no.

If the interior cabinet temp gets above the water temp, then some of this 1.6 kW-hrs of energy will go into the spa water, via the large surface area of the backside of the shell. This is the difference between the perimeter and foamed spas. The foamed spas don't make use of the waste heat nearly as well or possibly not at all, depending on the design. If their equipment bay is vented, the waste heat is, well, wasted.

In warm weather I can tell you from personal experience with a perimeter spa that the heater isn't needed to warm the spa, and it will sometimes go above 104F no problem. But in any kind of cooler weather you still need the heater. So, I believe that there's some truth to the statement that the Arctic can heat up without the heater. My previous perimeter spa would do this. But it's also an exaggeration because it won't do that except in certain (warm weather) conditions.

Foam tubs rely on the foam as insulation. This can work real well too as far as heat retention goes... it's sort of the brute force, caveman approach - simple but works. The downside is that service access is limited. Roger doesn't acknowledge this as a legitimate disadvantage.... use your own judgement. I think it's very important and since I repair all my own stuff, I personally wouldn't get a foamed model. Just too much potential pain for too little (if any) gain. The cover and how much you use the spa are both likely to have more impact on your energy costs than the cabinet's insulation, assuming the cabinet is done reasonably well... so may as well get one that's easy to repair.

[Hot Tub Medic]

not coast

[spawn]

Hot Water - A couple of thoughts come to mind when I read your post. See Below

This loss amounts to about 1 amp at 220V. Considering power factor, the amount of power, which is all dissipated into the inside of the cabinet, it on the order of 200W. Someone said that the Arctic pump runs for 8 hours... so that would be 1.6 kW-hours of energy that's dissipated into the interior of the cabinet.

Running a tub for 8 hours a day seems excessive to me - who does this and for what reason?

This is about the equivalent of a 5kW heater running for between 15 and 20 minutes, more or less, depending on the Arctic's actual pump power on low spped and its efficiency. I'm just guessing at what seem to be reasonable numbers.

I would rather run a heater for 15 minutes than a low speed pump for 8 hours. If a person runs a pump for 4 hours this would save about 7.5 minutes of heater use, two hours of pump = a little over 3 minutes of heater use, by your analysis. I realize that the pump is on for other reasons than to heat the cavity, which is presumably a secondary effect of running the pump. Also the heater is heating the water (granted some loss to the cabinet) vs the low speed pump heating the air space so the equivalent water heating time for 2 hours of pump use would be less than the three minutes. There is still heat loss from the cabinet interior to the outside. Any idea of what the r-value of the exterior cabinet wall is?

Now with the Arctic or other (good) perimeter spa, the waste energy can help keep the air space in the cabinet at a high temperature. If the temp inside is high, it seriously retards the heat loss from the water. 200W for 8 hours inside the cabinet ought to do a good job at warning up that space, as long as the perimeter insulation is decent and does a good job of holding the heat inside. Considering that the perimeter insulation is in place, the air temp inside the cabinet is going to be quite warm anyway, just because the water at 100-104F will keep that air pretty warm, pumps or no.

As said before, there will be heat lost through the perimeter insulation. unless the outside temperature is higher than the cabinet temperature. The less the temperature difference, the less the rate of heat loss - same for heat movement from water to cabinet space , which I understand is your main point about the benefit of the pump heating the cavity. Creating the cavity effectively means that there is less insulation between the heated water and the outside. I understand that you are pointing out that the pumps heat the cavity to help make up for this loss in R-value.

If the interior cabinet temp gets above the water temp, then some of this 1.6 kW-hrs of energy will go into the spa water, via the large surface area of the backside of the shell. This is the difference between the perimeter and foamed spas. The foamed spas don't make use of the waste heat nearly as well or possibly not at all, depending on the design. If their equipment bay is vented, the waste heat is, well, wasted.

When the cavity temp exceeds the water temp, the it will not be necessary for the heater to run. In the situation you really don't want to be heating the water unless you have deliberately set the temperature to be below the desired temperature.

In warm weather I can tell you from personal experience with a perimeter spa that the heater isn't needed to warm the spa, and it will sometimes go above 104F no problem. But in any kind of cooler weather you still need the heater. So, I believe that there's some truth to the statement that the Arctic can heat up without the heater. My previous perimeter spa would do this. But it's also an exaggeration because it won't do that except in certain (warm weather) conditions.

This would concern me. In warm weather, I don't want the spa going over 104 degrees. I certainly don't want it to happen in hot weather. It is definitely true that the arctic can heat without the heater but unfortuantely it may come at a time when you do not want the heat. Apparently the answer to this condition is the Arctic Chiller - a rather high tech and not inexpesnive device that cools the cabinet space that is being overheated by the pumps. They also sell vent panels to use during warm whether as another approach to dealing with this problem. Of course evening temps may drop rather low while daytime temps are high and the vent panels mean you dont really have insulation around to tub so you heat at night.

Foam tubs rely on the foam as insulation. This can work real well too as far as heat retention goes... it's sort of the brute force, caveman approach - simple but works. The downside is that service access is limited. Roger doesn't acknowledge this as a legitimate disadvantage.... use your own judgement. I think it's very important and since I repair all my own stuff, I personally wouldn't get a foamed model. Just too much potential pain for too little (if any) gain. The cover and how much you use the spa are both likely to have more impact on your energy costs than the cabinet's insulation, assuming the cabinet is done reasonably well... so may as well get one that's easy to repair.

I am a big fan of simplicity so I don't see the direct approach of using more insulation to minimize heat loss as a disadvantage. The water temperature is controlled by a thermostat. When low, the heater kicks on. No heat is input when temp is at desired range.