hot_water

I haven't been here in a very long time. I have a Strong Csxi80 - bought at Costco in 2009. 10 years now. Costco spas were quite a topic of debate back ten years ago. Here's my update: After 10 years, the pump seized up. Since it was ten years old, I bought a replacement pump - a Waterway "Executive 56" 4Hp (12 amp/4.4 amp). This is exactly what was in there to start with. Considering the amount of hours on the thing, I think it did real well. Online price, $275 with another $5 for new seals for the unions. The heater was working fine after 10 years, but since I was in there anyway I replaced it with, again, an exact replacement - Balboa M7 5.5kW. I'll rebuild the old pump and heater and keep them at the ready as spares. Which I may need.... in another 10 years. The motor is probably fine - most likely only needs new bearings. We'll see. Waterway still makes the same wet end pump. It's not expensive... but they also sell all the parts. So the wet end will be cheap. An element for the heater is $25 at Spa Depot. A titanium one is $15 more, but considering that the original went 10 years, I'll buy lunch with that $15 instead. The shell looks perfect. No blisters, no hairline cracks, no stains. The Balboa controller (VS-511) still works fine. The cabinet of this model is a plastic molded type that is, IIRC, some flavor of polyethylene. It still looks (no exaggeration) just like new. I do *nothing* to it except hit it with the pressure washer for maybe 1 minute total, once a year. No protectant, nothing. It's the best part of the spa, as far as I'm concerned - considering the way some 10 year old wood cabinets and frames look on spas my friends have. Interestingly, Strong mounted the pump and controller on a piece of Trex (or the like) synthetic deck board, instead of wood. So that hasn't deteriorated at all, either. Wood is cheaper than Trex, and since it's inside, no one would notice. But they used the synthetic, which says something about Strong... or at least about them 10 years ago. This spa was less than $5000, delivered. I don't know what that money can buy you today, but from what I see when the various "road shows" go to Costco, the prices are a lot higher than that for anything comparable. I'm an engineer, and I bought this because it had the Balboa spa pack, the 56 frame Waterway pump, and the synthetic cabinet. I figured good components would be reliable. They have been... and the design makes the thing very easy to work on. The question marks were on the reliability of the plumbing and how well the shell would hold up. There haven't been any problems with either of those. The Csxi is not the most deluxe spa out there. Some of the high end brands are stunning. But the Csxi80 continues to provide great bang for the buck.

It's always desirable to place the GFI as close to the spa as possible (while respecting local regs about how close the panel can be to the water). GFIs are very sensitive and trip if they detect very small mismatches between the current going in and the current coming out. If you want to put one in your main panel, you may be fine... but there's a chance you'll get an increase in false trips. The longer the wire run from the GFI to the device, the more likely that a tiny amount of current will find another way home, due to stray voltage or induction losses...and it will trip. Very annoying. I wouldn't bother with one at the main panel - instead, get in the habit of testing your GFIs at the sub panel.

I bought mine at about the same time that DK got his. Still have the tub, still haven't had any problems. I've been on Bromine the whole time. I haven't gotten a new cover yet, but need to soon. I'm still very happy with the tub. The cabinet hasn't shown any degradation at all - a far cry from wood panel cabinets. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I've enjoyed the spa - and the $4000 I saved - for 5 years now.

I got my CSXi80 more or less at the same time DK got his. Similar to his report, mine is still working great, no problems in 4 years.

3 years plus on mine, no problems... looks & runs like new.

The CSXi80 is a good spa. They've been in the field for 2+ years, still no rash of complaints... not even a small rash... at any review site on the web. Plumbing is fine. They could have used reinforced vinyl hose running to the jets, but it hasn't leaked, apparently for any owners posting. Access for repairs is exceptional. The parts could replace themselves, that's about all that could make it better. Parts quality is ok, the stuff is decent name brand and available anywhere including on line for competitive prices. Insulation works fine. The scheme is sound.... spoken as an owner of more than one spa (not at the same time!)and an engineer with 3 patents for thermal... believe what nonsense you like, though. On the CSXi80 (mine anyway) the jets all carry water. Some of the later models have air-only jets. All CSXi80 jets turn off. I find the hamstring jets useful but not always...if you don't like them turn them off. The argument that more jets means more opportunities for leaks is correct. But if they're done well, it doesn't mean that you are going to have a problem. And if you do... on this model the repair couldn't be any easier. I upgraded some of the single nozzle jets on mine to clusters. The jets are cheap and I like it better now. Jet power could be a better. Turn off unused jets and it gets better. Replace some of the single streamers with clusters and the feel gets better still. Jets are cheap and easy to change. If the jetting bothers you, get a few and try it. By the way I've been in a HotSpring and while they come with better jets, the power isn't great, either. I like seats in the corners and wish they hadn't wasted a corner position on stairs. The cabinet is a big plus. Durable and looks exactly like it did on day one. Rinse the dust off with a hose, that's the maintenance routine. It is not the most top-end spa on the market. I paid $4800 delivered. Good value, good build quality. The arguments about which spa is better are stupid. If I was a buyer, I would be paying attention to the horror stories owners post, such as you see about ThermoSpa and the like. You have to be careful that they are real owner posts (just sayin'.... people here have agendas). I am not in the spa industry in any way, shape or form nr do I have any relationship with anyone that sells spas. At this time I don't even own Costco stock, but yes I have bought and sold it in the past (hey it's a good stable if unspectacular performing stock). I am a consulting mechanical engineer and have never even had a consulting gig with a spa company. Have to say that because... well... you know what's coming.

You discussed this with Balboa? I thought you were just a Costco spa owner and now you're calling the controls manufacturer to discuss their product lines? LOL, sounds like you really work for Strong. I don't work for Strong, nor do I have anything to do (nor have I ever) with the Spa industry at any level. If you would like to make a little side wager, say, 5 years of gross earnings, based on tax returns, that I am fibbing then I will pay for the plane ticket to wherever you live to collect on the bet . Assuming you haven't wasted all your money on high end spas. The reason I called Balboa is because your buddy Roger, in a previous argument - oops discussion - made a similar outrageous claim about that the Balboa VS was a cheap controller. The website didn't give indicate that it was, and, not wanting to talk out my derierre like some here, I called them. It took about 5 minutes of my day. But now I know - gasp - an actual FACT as opposed to the fantasy promoted here. I actaully called them twice... the second time was to see why their controller was only rated for 12 amp pumps (ampacity of traces on the circuit board is the reason, not a relay or other easily changed part) as I was working out what I would do to increase the pump power on mine. You see, there are some of us that prefer facts rather than speculation or spout nonsense. Of course Balboa is going to tell you all their controls are top notch. In the elctronics manufacturing world, it would cost them more to make a cheap version than to just use similar parts and design in all of them. Its called, 'economy of scale' and 'efficiency of mass production'. The problem I have with you guys is that it's all nonsense. None of you can point to anything and say - "lookee there, that's junk". Just like your post, Spatech. If you think the Balboa guy was fibbing, how about you point to something about the controller that's cheaper? Not an electrical engineer? OK, fair enough - how about you point to failure rates of the VS compared to other controllers? Don't have any data? Then just maybe your statements aren't really justifiable? This is where you trot out the "I have years of experience" argument. Great. Me too. 30 years of engineering. Which tells me that talk without data is pretty useless.

I'm mistaking high end?!? I don't really think there's a definition written anywhere about that, do you? Your definition of features is a poor one, IMO. We have been told on this very forum that inexpensive spas are sold based on having bells and whistles while the quality sucks! Now you are saying that high end means that the HS controller has bells and whistles? Here's what I think: Terms like high end are subjective and mean nothing. If the feature set is sufficient to meet one's requirements and the product is well made and reliable, that's a good product. The Balboa fits that bill. If you like the features of your HS controller, great. All that nonsense isn't worth 15 cents to me. As for the price, the reason Balboa costs less is because the sell a whole lot more controllers than HS. It has nothing to do with quality. The titanium heater on the HS is nice... my spa doesn't have it, but Balboa offers it and I'll think about getting one when mine goes out - depending on the life I got out of my standard one and the price for the titanium at the time. You have a serious misunderstanding of filtration. "No-bypass filtration" is precisely a gimmick. Filters do nothing to take out urine or sweat. NOTHING. They remove particles in suspension. That is, dirt. Urine and sweat, along with all sorts of other things, go into solution and are not removed by paper filters. I can deal with my single filter in exactly the same way you deal with your five. And I have the same amount of particulates in my water as you do: insignificant. You may not want to hear it, but your HS isn't filtering urine or sweat, not even a little. The warranty doesn't shift anything. You pay for it when you buy. That's the real gamble. A longer warranty costs you cash at the time of sale. That means that you are betting that your spa will fail. The manufacturer has the data and knows his failure rate and repair costs. So you are, effectively, ALWAYS betting against the house. Manufacturers profit on the warranty - not on each tub but on the total composite of tubs the sell. Most of the time, a shorter warranty is the result of higher manufacturing costs resulting from lower volume of production. The smaller manufacturer doesn't have the ability to price in a longer warranty because it would make his final price too high. In the case of Costco I'm sure the warranty is cut to lower the cost for Costco. It does not necessarily have a thing to do with the quality of the tub (although it might - but you can't conclude this without data). Another point you don't recognize is that not only do tubs with high jet counts cost considerably more to manufacture, they also have higher failure rates in the plumbing since the number of parts, shell penetrations, clamps and glue joints goes up dramatically. That is the real reason why your HS, with its foam fill, doesn't have many jets. It's cheaper to make, and they can't stand the increased chance of a leakage associated with high jet counts, being that everything is foamed. You've never seen an Evo, but I've seen a HS. I'll agree that the cabinet looks fine. But it's not as nice. There is no way I would trade my Evo cabinet for a HS or Sundance standard cabinet. And you really don't know that the Evo is any less energy efficient than a foam spa. That debate has raged on for years. Some other high end spas (Arctic, for one) use a similar system to the Evo and get very competitive numbers. Fact is, I've analyzed the estimates right from the HS web site about their projected costs and it comes out about the same as what I spend, based on adjustments for cost per kW-hr and temperature. The insulation argument is about as good as the "high end" argument... there is no hard data that makes any case that one is better another. But you don't see many Evo owners complaining about their electric bills. The $5k Watkins tubs are not worth $5k. Of course I also think Nordic tubs are a joke for the money, too. The Vanguard is pretty nice, I looked at it. The local HS dealer here wasn't going below $8400 here in CA. But times are tougher now, maybe they're being more flexible. I paid $4800 for my tub, delivered. It cost me $200 to move the spa to the backyard. The electrical panel cost $94 at Lowe's, it's a Midwest NEMA-3R enclosure with a Seimens GFI breaker . Electrical hookup is what you get with your HS, not a full electrical run. If you can do the electrical, the hookup is nothing. If you have to job it out, it will take your electrician 20 minutes to do. That's worth maybe $30 if he's there to do the real, permitted electrical installation anyway. So someone would have just over $5100 in an Evo like mine, compared to no less than $7500 for your Vanguard. I'll count my cash while sitting in my Evo, thank you!

You discussed this with Balboa? I thought you were just a Costco spa owner and now you're calling the controls manufacturer to discuss their product lines? LOL, sounds like you really work for Strong. I don't work for Strong, nor do I have anything to do (nor have I ever) with the Spa industry at any level. If you would like to make a little side wager, say, 5 years of gross earnings, based on tax returns, that I am fibbing then I will pay for the plane ticket to wherever you live to collect on the bet . Assuming you haven't wasted all your money on high end spas. The reason I called Balboa is because your buddy Roger, in a previous argument - oops discussion - made a similar outrageous claim about that the Balboa VS was a cheap controller. The website didn't give indicate that it was, and, not wanting to talk out my derierre like some here, I called them. It took about 5 minutes of my day. But now I know - gasp - an actual FACT as opposed to the fantasy promoted here. I actaully called them twice... the second time was to see why their controller was only rated for 12 amp pumps (ampacity of traces on the circuit board is the reason, not a relay or other easily changed part) as I was working out what I would do to increase the pump power on mine. You see, there are some of us that prefer facts rather than speculation or spout nonsense.

The various models of Balboa controllers are all the same exact quality, and use the same parts. The difference in the VS and the other lines is in the number of pumps and features they support. I had this discussion - with Balboa. The HS controller may be more "high end", whatever that means. All I care about is that it does its function and doesn't fail. Not a lot of complaints about Balboa. I've had two... no failures. That seems plenty 'high end' enough. Plus when it dies I can get another one for cheap online, rather than pay big bucks for a proprietary controller from HS or Sundance or D1. As for flux capacitors, that argument is comedy-fiction just like the movie. Sure there are some cheaper spas out there. But the Evo uses US made Waterway Exec 56 pumps with US motors. Not a cheaper model. The Balboa isn't any different than any other Balboa. And the shell is CCA with acrylobond. The cabinet is much better than the standard cabinet on a Sundance or Hotspring. No-bypass filtering is a marketing gimmick. It isn't particularly hard to implement. And there isn't any advantage - most of the rest of the spa world, including high end spas, use bypass filtering and the water is perfectly clean. There is no logical reason to assume that no-bypass is needed. It's not like the oil system in your car engine (and yes those do have a bypass but generally oil is 100% filtered except under certain circumstances). Warranty has nothing to do with how a well a company stands behind a product. That's another marketing ploy. Warranties are priced into the product, and companies make profit on them. You can't infer anything from a longer warranty, unless you know the failure rate of the spa and the average repair costs. Same old-same old here. When given the facts, the nay-sayers can't really point to anything about the Evo that's cheap. Because it isn't cheap. it also isn't the fanciest spa out there. But it's a good value, far better than most. I've looked at the cheaper Watkins models and what they are is... still overpriced. But you're free to hold any opinion you like. The only spa I thought was a comparable value to my Evo was the H20... that's a nicely designed spa, and only about $1200 more than my Evo... but unfortunately the dealer went under. Too bad. That one also has great bang for the buck. Personally I think HS products are underwhelming and overpriced. Even the idea of dealing with all those filters seems silly. I have just one to clean, and my water looks perfect. If you like your expensive spa, great. Enjoy. Some of us have a spas that work great, provide a ton of relaxation, and are solidly built of available parts that are easy to get to. Oh, and we saved several thousand. I can afford any spa, but think one would have to be nuts to spend $10k on one of the name spas. Evos are not the most 'high end' but my wallet is sure more 'high end' as a result of not spending $10k on an overpriced one!

I'm not here to sell one or the other, I am here to give advice based on my 25 years of experience as a spa tech. I have no doubt there are a large number of satisfied customers. I have said repeatedly that if you have low expectations, you will be happy. DK117, what you have been sold is a spa with a fraction of the power needed to run the jets effectively, because jet numbers sell spas, but they don't make power, they need power to work, 30 jets/pump is a good ratio if each bank of 15 is split with a diverter valve. Guru, you said you could offer some specific comments if you were given some details about the spa. You've got details. So what are your comments? Thinly-veiled negative statements like. "if you have low expectations, you'll be happy" don't count. Many owners, including myself, have already commented that the power is a bit on the weak side - that's not really new information. The easy solution is, turn off jets. There are plenty you can pick from to leave on, and if you shut the others off the jet performance is ok. Honestly, still not as good as my previous spa. But ok. If you have been working on spas for 25 years then you surely know that diverters are convenient but you pay a price in pressure loss when one is put in the circuit.

Spa brands come and go out of Costco all the time, Strong is just the "saveur du jour". If you want for me to respond specifically to the brand you have, then with your volouminous research, you should be able to answer my questions, because, yes, believe it or not, I'm trying to be helpful. What I am not here to do is validate your decision. If you have no idea the brand of pump, the style of shell manufacture, the makers of the mother board, brand of jets etc are, you essentially only know your spa's model name. You seem to be basing your purchase decision on Costco, not on in depth knowledge of the product. By knowledge, I don't mean reviews and opinions, I mean facts. I posted in detail the differing decisions a manufacturer must make, how does your tub rate on these criteria? The thread is a question on markup, not on the quality or design choices. Not that I think markup has any relevance to anything, but that was the question. But to answer your specific issue, what's in a Strong has been pretty well documented elsewhere. The CSXi80 has: * Balboa VS series controller. Standard heater (not titanium) * Waterway Executive 56 pumps (2) with the AO Smith 12A, 2 speed motors (not Chinese knockoffs as was intimated in another thread) * Continuous cast acrylic shell with acrylobond backing * Polyethylene cabinet, rotomolded in several pieces and assembled with stainless steel screws. No frame - wood or metal - at all. Tool-less access, 8 total removable panels (2 per side). Not as cool as some of the stone-look upgrade cabinets at the Sundance dealer, but far better than their standard offerings. The best standard cabinet I've seen. And I was worried that it would look like plastic crap before I actually got the spa. *Full ABS plastic bottom *50 sq ft filter (pleatco supplied w/ spa) *80 waterway (mine are marked MADE IN USA) jets, most are singles, about a dozen clusters come standard (I can't be exact, I changed out a bunch of mine). All have stainless face trims. * Too lazy to go out and measure the tubing size running to the jets. It could use more jet performance, but that is helped by changing the jets and closing jets on unused seats (just remember to open them all back up when you exit the spa - keeps the plumbing much cleaner). The spa is manufactured in the USA. Of course the controller has parts from Asia, almost all electronics products do. Still, it's a Balboa. But, a guru would know that a list of parts doesn't tell you much about the build quality, comfort, or how well the components play together. For that you need actual reports from people, no? So what's you're point exactly? Or did you post the costco website review to highlight to visitors that a spa arrived dead? Look closer, 91% of owners would recommend it to a friend. 91%. If you read many internet reviews for any type of product, you'll recognize that 91% is pretty darn good. Costco makes its profits on MEMBERSHIP DUES. That's their business model. Look at the financials. It's all right there. Almost no gross profit from sales. The membership dues drop to the bottome line. Costco markup covers their overhead, which is extremely low - after all, it's a warehouse store. In the case of spas, they drop ship from the factory. That's why stuff is cheaper there than, say, WalMart, who has more buying power and generally sells lower end stuff. Really... you would have to be delusional to beleive that a traditional spa dealer - with rent, insurance, salaries and commissions, and a full load of other small-business overhead, could possibly have a comparable markup to Costco. Or maybe that's why the dealers all converge on any Costco oriented threads? Just sayin...

There's a huge amount of discussion on this forum relating to Strong spas. Do a search and you'll find as much as you would ever want to read. The bottom line is, owners are generally pleased. Customer service, as per your experience, also gets high marks.

As it happens, there are cases where Costco does extend the manufacturer's warranty. I just had to replace my old TV and was pleasantly surprised to learn that at Costco, in addition to having the brand and model I wanted at a great price, doubles the manufacturer's warranty on TVs. Getting back to warranty costs, of course you're right... it's not a simple issue, you do have to shop. Different designs, build quality, and parts and material quality have an effect on warranty cost. Similarly, a more efficient service organization will result in lower service costs. There are a dozen such issues that affect actual costs and thus the price of the warranty, including the overhead rate of the party offfering the warranty and the profit that they price into it. With a spa, you're buying a product that has more to consider than just a warranty, so you really have to shop! Most would evaluate the spa based on the total value proposition it offers in comparison to other competitive spas and sellers. A lot of that is completely subjective and based on your preferences and what you think is important. Things that you value, I may not want and visa versa. Warranty hasn't been as important to me, but there are other things that I look for that may not be important to you. I do feel that if the spa developed a fatal problem (a shell issue, for example) and I was feeling like I didn't get decent value for my money, then Costco's return policy would be valuable. Hope your repair isn't too painful to your wallet. Good luck!

It's not just about checking part numbers. DK117 I agree with DK on this. Sometimes, the part number on Costco items is different. Usually it's because the product is packaged differently or comes in a different size container. Very often the Costco version of a product will have some extra stuff in the package... for example, a TV might include an HDMI cable that the same TV sold at another retailer doesn't include - hence, it will have a different part number. This is not uncommon with mega-retailers. I disagree on the DIY stuff. You don't have to be a home mechanic. You call them, they send someone. Same as any other spa. A few months ago, I a needed a gasket, and Strong (the maker, not Costco) scheduled a tech to come out to install it. No muss, no fuss. As it happens, I cancelled the appointment and installed it myself... far easier than having to be tied to the house waiting for the service guy, something that I just don't have time to do. Is this support model faster or slower than a dealer? I don't know. It probably depends on the dealer. One thing I do know is that no one complains about Strong Customer support on this forum. That may or may not be true with the Watkins, or the CalSpa products Costco also has been selling. There has to be some advantage to a dealer... maybe quick response support is it. OK, fine. You pay for that as part of the higher price. Hopefully you won't need too many service calls anyway. In any case, it doesn't mean that you have to be a DIYer to own a Costco spa. I also agree with DB3808 on Costco. It's a completely different business model than Walmart. They don't derive their profits the same way at all, and thus their marketing and CS strategy is different. This has been gone over dozens of times in this forum, you either get it or you don't. Costco, as DB3808 says, generally offers more for less. Their markup is lower than most other retailers because they have lower overhead and because they derive their profits primarily from membership dues (read the quarterly report - not the text, the financial statement - and you will see this for yourself). Their motivation is, therefore, to offer the best deal to the member and keep them happy, so that he/she will want to re-up every year. That's why Costco is unique. Most of the time they succeed in offering products that are a great deal, but not 100% of the time. No one is perfect. On the other hand, warranty is in fact a priced item. Warranty service costs money. In general, companies price warranties based on statistics of historical failure rates and their internal cost associated with performing on the warranty. And they make profit on them, too. There are textbooks on the subject of pricing warranties (I have one that I use all the time!). In any case, it sounds like you "assumed" that the Watkins model you bought would have the same warranty as the dealer Hot Spring. Your spa was not offered as a Hot Spring, but as "from the maker of Hot Spring". Your initial asumption might have been a reasonable mistake... but it was nevertheless a mistake. And not, really, Costco's fault or Watkin's fault - they didn't hide the warranty or misrepresent the product, after all. Chalk it up to tuition for the school of hard knocks. Get your spa running and go out and relax in it.

Well, it's not my place to judge, but since you asked for an opinion.... Yeah, after reading your post, you're being unreasonable. You claim that you didn't know what the warranty was. Isn't it in the documentation that came with the spa? Wasn't it on the website? Honestly, it seems like you're blaming Costco or Watkins because you didn't know what the warranty was on the product. Isn't that unreasonable? You called Costco wanting the repair covered. Had they agreed, you would have been happy. Nothing in the post says you weren't satisfied with the spa, you just wanted someone else to pay for the repair. Then, when Watkins wouldn't cover the out-of-warranty repair, you wanted Costco to take it back. But clearly you weren't really dissatisfied with the product, you were just unhappy that you didn't get a free repair. Costco's return policy is supposed to protect the members from getting stuck with products that don't work as they should, are lemons, or otherwise don't provide the expected value. If your shell cracked,the cabinet frame rotted out, or it was breaking down frequently, Costco would take it back. No one else has anything close to that policy. But that doesn't mean that you get lifetime free repairs! That's unrealistic. So yes, I think you're being unreasonable. Sorry, but you asked. As for Phyllis, I dialed the Customer Service number on the Costco website. Select the phone menu option for "return your order". If you aren't routed to the Yakima office, tell whoever answers that you want Phyllis on the resolution team in Yakima. I don't think you have a very good argument, but it's worth a try.

I don't find the policy to be unclear at all. So I called up Costco CS and spoke to "Phyllis" in the Yakima call center. Millie is in the other call center (they have two). I didn't mention that this was from an internet forum, only that "I was talking to someone that was having a problem with a spa return". So, that was a bit of a fib.... in any case, here is what I learned: (a.) There is no time limit on the Costco satisfaction policy other than the items specifically listed (cameras, computers, TVs, etc). Spas are covered without a time limit. (b.) If the member's dissatisfaction can be resolved by arranging a repair, Phyllis said that they will often try this, even if it is out of warranty. If that doesn't work, they will accept returns, irrespective of the age of the product... even for spas. (c.) Costco does refuse returns in specific cases if they conclude that a customer is being blatantly unreasonable and trying to abuse the policy. But Phyllis said it was rare. She was quite surprised that your return was declined when I told ber your story, but also said that it wasn't possible for her to really know why your return was declined without seeing the notes in the file. For example, if someone purposely causes failure (breaks the item on purpose), then that would be not be covered; if someone buys something and then can't use it any more, then that is not considered to be 'dissatisfaction' or grounds for return; or if someone just wants to return something to get a newer model, then that's not covered. None of this seems unreasonable to me. However, if there is a real reason why you're not satisfied that they can't fix, then Costco generally takes it back. (d.) I asked if it was a condition of selling through Costco that the manufacturer had to eat the returns, and she said that, as far as she knew, that was the general policy. She was not aware of any exceptions, but couldn't confirm that there were none. It does seem unlikely that Watkins - big in spa,s but small potatoes overall, would be able to get a better deal compared to some of the megacorps that sell through Costco. You are a Costco member, right? You can buy through Costco.com, which is where the Watkins spa was offered, without being a member if you pay a small premium. You might not get the same member satisfaction policy if you're not a member... not sure about that one, but seems like a good thing to ask - if you aren't a member or weren't one when you bought. Phyllis said that you can call the Yakima call center and ask for her if you like. She will get involved and try to find out exactly why your return was denied. But as mentioned, it doesn't make much sense to return a spa over a little problem. Maybe the unreasonableness of this request made it appear to Millie that you were trying to rip off the policy? I would like to hear how this turns out. From my own personal experience, as well as what I got on the phone just a few minutes ago, Costco seems reasonable and still willing to stand behind the product with the best safety net policy one could imagine. I wouldn't expect them to sit still and allow themselves or their suppliers to be screwed, would you?

Did you happen to write down the name of the person you spoke to on the phone from Costco? There area a couple of things that don't sound right about this situation. First, Costco is obligated to take the spa back, because it is covered under their unlimited member satisfaction policy. Now, realistically (and as you've mentioned) you would very likely not want to return the item over a heater or other small problem. Nevertheless, Costco does have to take it back insofar as that is the advertised policy, which is plainly stated on the website as well as on a sign over the Member Service desk at the Costco warehouse locations - and has been for years. Were it in your interest, you could push the issue - I imagine successfully. I have one friend that returned a spa to Costco. It was from an out of business maker, and the whole process was painless except that he did have to pay the spa mover. There was no approval or denial involved. This person spoke to the store manager a few days prior, explained that the thing has developed a problem and that he wasn't happy with it, and was told to go ahead and bring it back. I disconnected the electrical lines for my (afraid-of-wires) friend, and thespa mover came and took it back. Costco wrote out a check for the full purchase amount on the spot, and handed it over with a smile, saying "Sorry it didn't work out for you". I was there; we ate a Costco hot dog before we left. For cases such as yours where the manufacturer is still in business, Costco does not eat the return. Part of the deal with Costco is that the manufacturer agrees to eat the returns. In the case above, the manufacturer was not in existence, so Costco did eat the spa. Which makes it all the more interesting that they are electing to tell you that they won't honor your return. Even if Costco's policy with respect to returns had changed, it wouldn't matter. The governing policy is that which is in-force at the time of the purchase. Before buying my Evolution spa, I called Costco customer service to confirm that the "member satisfaction guarantee" was indeed in-force and applicable to spas. I was told very explicitly that it was, and that the spa could be returned if at any time I was not satisfied. As it happens, I have been very happy with the spa in all respects, so there has been no need for follow up. The point is that this is a completely different story than the one you got... but does correspond to the single instance mentioned above where my friend's spa was returned with no hassle whatsoever. Finally, you mentioned that the person you spoke to said that the "buying staff" declined your request for return. The buyers at Costco, like any large retailer, don't control returns. This again just sounds fishy. I would call Costco Customer Service and speak to someone else. If I get a chance next week I'll call Costco, pose as a potential buyer, ask the question about the policy... and report back the result. Again, if you have the name of the person you spoke to, that would be useful.

Contrary to what you sometimes see written, there is no way that it can cost less to keep a spa at temperature 24/7 compared to turning it down - that would violate laws of physics. However, it is true that depending on your usage, the savings from turning it down may be insignificant. It sure sounds like your bill is way out of hand, especially for San Diego, this time of year. You really do need to determine how much of that energy is being consumed by the spa. I agree with the other posters that have suggested 110V power monitoring devices. Should cost you around $25-35. As a fellow Californian (Northern CA, but similar high electric rates) I can tell you that my summertime energy usage is peanuts. Don't neglect to check out your AC. If it needs maintenance, even something as simple as brush that has grown around the unit blocking airflow, this can drive your operating costs through the roof. As to the spa, make sure your cover is in good shape (not loaded with water), and sealing well to the shell. It is very important to limit evaporative losses. If you're adding water often, then this can be a problem. I haven't added any water to my spa in over a month. Also, make sure that when you exit the spa, you've turned the air controls valves to the off position.

It is usually best to keep the soft water inside, and keep the irrigation system and hose bibs on unsoftened water. I know that after years, sodium accumulates in the soil and can affect your lawn and garden, but I'm not sure if potassium has similar bad effects. I brought out one soft water hose bib for car washing... no water spots... very cool. As for the tub, why use a softener to remove the calcium and magnesium, then add calcium back in? You might want to check on the price of potassium chloride. I've heard it is twice the price of NaCl, but here in San Jose, CA I pay $4 at Costco for NaCl while KCl is $21 at Lowe's. They both work equally well in terms of water softening. A softener will take out some amount of iron, but if you have significant iron or other metals, it will shorted the life of the softener resin. Iron is usually only a problem for folks with well water. If you have a lot of iron, a different iron filter ahead of the softener is sometimes needed. If you have municipal water, you can get a water quality report that will tell you what's in your water. You can buy a chemical that you add to your initial fill which sequesters iron and other metals that stain the acrylic. Softeners are great. All your fixtures will stay much, much cleaner and lasts much longer.

Won't happen in time, but you can get a meter socket and used meter (same kind the utility company installed on your main) on the well-known auction site. Meters are $10 to $100 and sockets are $25-$75. They are easy to install (by the electrician) but massively ugly. Personally, I fail to see the value. Ambient temperature, wind, humidity and how you use the tub have a huge influence on the results. Unless you're willing to control all the conditions, record average atmospheric conditions, usage patterns, and do a significant amount of analysis over the tons of data that would be required, metering isn't really any more useful than just looking at your bill and comparing it to last year or even last month. Metering is discussed on this forum a lot, but it's really just rhetoric that allows folks to dismiss statements that certain tubs are better or worse insulated than others. Without a well designed, controlled experimental setup you can't really learn anything. An accurate measurement of an uncontrolled parameter doesn't add any accuracy... at all.

So the Magnum has 2 water pumps feeding about 75 jets (I have the lounger model). The air pump actually just feeds some air only jets. However, opening the air controls boosts my jet power significantly. So much so to the point that if I left it wide open on pump speed 2, I can take about 5 minutes tops before I need to turn it down. The neck jets are a different story. They don't use the air draw and therefor are not as powerful. The specifications are very confusing regarding the "vector air" and maybe some of the models actually operate differently than the Magnum. I'm surprised you see little gain with the air valves open. The best price I've seen on the Magnum is 5,495 (where I grabbed it). So, it sounds like the "vector air pump" is really more like what other spas call the "blower"? My previous spa had a blower. Those things have become kind of unpopular - they don't do much except cool your water down fast. Yes, with my spa opening the air controls to the jets introduces a bit of air, and a noticeable but disappointing power increase. My previous spa had very effective air controls, similar to what you describe with your Magnum, that would just about push you out of the seat. Not too long ago, I upgraded a handful of the jets in my spa to those that Strong uses on the dealer version - the "Vienna". The air seems to be a little more effective. I think it's because the total flow is a bit higher with the new jets. $5495 sounds like a good deal for that spa, if, as you say, the jets have more power. One day if I'm not lazy I'll do something about the power on mine... it's not exactly rocket science to upgrade the plumbing design and pumps.... but then again spas are all about being lazy (at least for me) so... maybe not.

Well yes, I tend to agree with you that it won't be a lot better than what I have. Although the powered air system may be an improvement - I really can't say. In any case, the question on the table was not the Centurion compared to the CSXi80; it was Centurion v. Key West. As discussed, the Centurion has 37 jets per pump compared to 60 per pump for the KW. That's clearly enough to notice. 60 is a LOT of jets to run off of a single pump. Since I know that the CSX at an avg of 40 jets per pump is not going to win any awards for jet power, the KW with 60 per pump seems likely to be weaker. WIll it be 2/3 of that performance? Can't tell, there is far more to the design than simply jets per pump. But to me, it's going to be a notch lower, even if they've improved the design somewhat. As I see it, the KW model is ideally suited for someone that places little value on powerful jets, or has a limited budget. Both are legitimate reasons to go in that direction, but one must acknowledge that a KW is unlikely to provide very forceful jets. It's not true that you get what you pay for... but it is almost always true that you DON'T get what you DON'T pay for. In the case, you're not paying for multiple jet pumps with the KW and you're probably getting less grunt and certainly less control versatility. Could be fine though. I find that the Strong is a very nice spa, excellent quality, great CS, and a great cabinet that requires no maintainance, has a lifetime warranty from Strong and seems like it should never need to use that warranty. Your opinion on diverters is interesting. Loss is loss, and diverters have a lot of it. There is no magic engineering way around it. But yes, for a given number of pumps, jets and seats - a diverter can make sense. But no matter what, it will cost pressure. Sure, one can reduce the number of jets. I don't know it it would be better or not. The number of jets per pump is a gross indication... not an engineering parameter. The actual design is much more complex than that. The only reason I brought it up in the first place was because the number of jets per pump was pretty widely disparate between the Centurion and the Key West, making it very likely tha the Centurion would have more powerful jet action. Would fewer jets make it better? Would you rather have more jets at less power each or less jets with more power each? Would you rather have the choice of turning some off to bolster the output of others? I know what I would prefer, but that doesn't mean everyone would feel the same.

I think that's the point I made in post #2. Everyone has to decide what they want and how much they are willing to spend to get it. You bought what fits you best, and that's great. Just as you wrote about how you use your spa, I make use of the large number of jets (80) in mine. If I went to a spa with fewer jets, I would miss the ability to turn on and off specific jets in a given seat. I also find it very annoying to have to turn off jets in unused positions to get decent power, something that I have to do a bit of with my CSXi80, even though it has two pumps. I switch seats often and having to manipulate jets every time I want to switch would drive me batty. I'm there to relax, not to screw with the controls. Much easier to turn pumps on and off. To each his own. That's why manufacturers offer different models. Diverters seem like a handy solution, but unfortunately when you pass the entire output of a pump through a diverter, there is a significant pressure loss. Most diverters are not large enough to mitigate the loss. And, you suffer with that loss more or less no matter what position the diverter is in. So I am not a fan of the diverter solution.

Yes, they did discontinue that model. It had two jet pumps (what you're calling "hydro" pumps) and no air pump. It used the traditional non-power assisted means of drawing air into the jet stream, controlled by (of course) several on-off valves to service the different seats. The Magnum 90 non-lounger version appears to be very, very similar to the old CSXi80. The main difference is the additional air pump. I imagine it is an improvement. My spa is adequate, but unspectacular in the jet power department. Opening the air controls made a minor difference. My earlier spa (different brand) provided a very significant boost when opening the air control valves, even though it, too, did not use an air pump. If the Magnum has indeed increased the power to the jets, then I would say that it is a very nice spa. I'm not a big fan of loungers, and really enjoy my CSXi80 so for me the Magnum 90 non-lounger version would probably be my first choice in the current lineup. Unfortunately the price has gone up compared to the old CSXi80, which on sale was going for a very cheap $4800. DOn't recall what the sale price is on the Magnum, but I doubt if it's that low... kind of a shame for new buyers, but then again everything seems to be going up. Plastic is, after all, made from oil... and there is a LOT of copper in those motors.