Circulation Pumps?

[thestallion]

So what do you think of circulation pumps, ponyboy?

You've gotta to be kidding. Read the thread its pretty fu**ing clear what I think. Both will work with each doing certain things better than the other.

[spasandpoolparts.com]

[Yes you should get a tub with a circ pump, these tubs run more efficiently than those without. If your pump breaks you still have a circ pump moving water, heating water if set up this way, this tub wont freeze. Circ pumps cost pennies a day to run where jet pumps cost dollars a day.

[thestallion]

[Yes you should get a tub with a circ pump, these tubs run more efficiently than those without. If your pump breaks you still have a circ pump moving water, heating water if set up this way, this tub wont freeze. Circ pumps cost pennies a day to run where jet pumps cost dollars a day.

Flat out false. The cost to run either is "about" the same. Also what happens when any small debris get caught in your aquarium motor errrrr I mean your circ pump you know the one with the impeller that is about the size of a silver dollar that running at MAXIUM (whats that word you used oh yeah) "efficiently" moves all of 6 - 8 gallons of water per minute. There are two sides to most stories and for anyone who wants to tout a circ as the be all and end all to water filtration is someone who has a very biased agenda. Again both will work and each one having a some advantages over the other.

[Brulan1]

Flat out false. The cost to run either is "about" the same. Also what happens when any small debris get caught in your aquarium motor errrrr I mean your circ pump you know the one with the impeller that is about the size of a silver dollar that running at MAXIUM (whats that word you used oh yeah) "efficiently" moves all of 6 - 8 gallons of water per minute. There are two sides to most stories and for anyone who wants to tout a circ as the be all and end all to water filtration is someone who has a very biased agenda. Again both will work and each one having a some advantages over the other.

I agree! Also a circulating pump is only filtering the water within the facinity of the pump so unless you are in the tub pushing the water towards the pump inlet it is not being filtered 100percent with the exception of Hotsprings no-bypass.

[Guzz]

I agree! Also a circulating pump is only filtering the water within the facinity of the pump so unless you are in the tub pushing the water towards the pump inlet it is not being filtered 100percent with the exception of Hotsprings no-bypass.

Iceberg! Right ahead! Sink this thread.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I agree! Also a circulating pump is only filtering the water within the facinity of the pump so unless you are in the tub pushing the water towards the pump inlet it is not being filtered 100percent with the exception of Hotsprings no-bypass.

Good thing Brulan and Graham are here to clear things up!

There is a lot of smoke being blown around on this issue and I'm not sure why I'm responding again but here it goes.

-Both methods filter just fine. A 2-speed pump certainly will fitler more but is more really necessary? That's debateable.

- A circ pump uses very little power. A 2-speed pump uses much more power while it's ON but runs just a few hrs per day. If the 2-speed pump is only on 3 or 4 hrs it's probably about even and not worth debating. If the 2-speed filters more time it'll cost more but nothing much unless you're running it 8, 10 or 12 hrs per day.

-A circ pump is obviously quieter. Some say that relaly matters, some say it doesn't. In the end it probably doesn't matter to 90% of the customers with thier applications. That's up to the customer.

-A circ pump will fail at some point, hopefully after many years. A 2-speed pumps will fail also, maybe not as often but they're also much more expensive. I'm not sure why this one is such a big deal to some.

-A circ pump gives you the chance to run ozone 24/7. This to me is a clear cut advantage. If you're not an ozone fan, that's fine but I am 100% and this is where the circ pump really is an advantage.

[thestallion]

Good thing Brulan and Graham are here to clear things up!

There is a lot of smoke being blown around on this issue and I'm not sure why I'm responding again but here it goes.

-Both methods filter just fine. A 2-speed pump certainly will fitler more but is more really necessary? That's debateable.

- A circ pump uses very little power. A 2-speed pump uses much more power while it's ON but runs just a few hrs per day. If the 2-speed pump is only on 3 or 4 hrs it's probably about even and not worth debating. If the 2-speed filters more time it'll cost more but nothing much unless you're running it 8, 10 or 12 hrs per day.

-A circ pump is obviously quieter. Some say that relaly matters, some say it doesn't. In the end it probably doesn't matter to 90% of the customers with thier applications. That's up to the customer.

-A circ pump will fail at some point, hopefully after many years. A 2-speed pumps will fail also, maybe not as often but they're also much more expensive. I'm not sure why this one is such a big deal to some.

-A circ pump gives you the chance to run ozone 24/7. This to me is a clear cut advantage. If you're not an ozone fan, that's fine but I am 100% and this is where the circ pump really is an advantage.

I agree with just about all you said. With just a couple of notes.

1) I thought this thread was dead about a week ago. I come back and it seems to have taken on a 2nd life.

2) I think most people will agree that both work. But there are a couple of "circ" pump fans who take a very narrow stance and make blanketed statements that have many flip sides.

3) I think what you mentioned about 24 hour ozone is the circ pumps biggest strength and the higher turnover of water is the 2 speed pumps. I personally think a intelligent argument can be made for both and that the two can wash each other out. As you point out some may say the turnover of higher turnover of water is not needed while others will claim there is no need for 24 hours of ozone.

4) And lastly other than the split second at start up both are quite with the circ pump being more so but a well made spa running on low speed is hardly noticeable.

[ciderjack]

I agree with just about all you said. With just a couple of notes.

3) I think what you mentioned about 24 hour ozone is the circ pumps biggest strength and the higher turnover of water is the 2 speed pumps. I personally think a intelligent argument can be made for both and that the two can wash each other out. As you point out some may say the turnover of higher turnover of water is not needed while others will claim there is no need for 24 hours of ozone.

What if you could get a higher turnover AND 24hr ozone out of a circulation pump?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

What if you could get a higher turnover AND 24hr ozone out of a circulation pump?

Whether the higher turnover is worth the added KWH may be debatable but the 24-hr ozone is a big plus.

[ciderjack]

Whether the higher turnover is worth the added KWH may be debatable but the 24-hr ozone is a big plus.

What if you could get 24hour ozone and a higher turnover rate for the same cost as a low speed pump running for 4 hours?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

What if you could get 24hour ozone and a higher turnover rate for the same cost as a low speed pump running for 4 hours?

You seem to be talking about Sundance. Their way is just fine but it's just another path, not an answer as this thread has shown so I wouldn't expect to fill the bus with converts.

BTW, now this opens the debate over cost of operation. Many feel that the regular volume circ pump is no less $$ to run than the 2-speed pump (running for 4 hrs.). This higher volume circ pump is obviously going to use more energy than the "regular" circ pump so we know they aren't even (I'll assume that's a given) but you're saying the hiigher volume circ pump is even with teh 2-speed pump. Sounds like even more debate over unproven cost of operations.

[ciderjack]

You seem to be talking about Sundance. Their way is just fine but it's just another path, not an answer as this thread has shown so I wouldn't expect to fill the bus with converts.

BTW, now this opens the debate over cost of operation. Many feel that the regular volume circ pump is no less $$ to run than the 2-speed pump (running for 4 hrs.). This higher volume circ pump is obviously going to use more energy than the "regular" circ pump so we know they aren't even (I'll assume that's a given) but you're saying the hiigher volume circ pump is even with teh 2-speed pump. Sounds like even more debate over unproven cost of operations.

I am not expecting to fill the bus with converts. I just want to make sure the right information is given out as there only seems to be two schools of thought on the subject, small circ. pump or low speed pump. Some companies utilize both a circ. pump and low speed filter cycles. Other companies, and I don't believe Sundance is the only one to do this, use a larger, 48 frame circulation pump.

Here are some approximate costs to run certain items:

Ratings on the pumps:

Low speed on a 2.5hp 2sp. pump = about 3.3 amps = around 792 watts

35 gpm circ pump = around 140 watts

5-9gpm circ pump = 65 to 85 watts

Wattage cost:

Running a low speed pump for 4 hours = 3160 watts

Running the 35 gpm circ pump for 24 hours = 3360 watts

5-9gpm circ pump = 1560-2040 watts

Cost per month @ 30 days:

low speed pump @ 4 hours = 94.8kw

35gpm circ pump = 100.08kw

5-9gpm circ pump = 46.8kw - 61.2kw

Gallons filtered:

low speed pump: Around 26400

35gpm pump: 50400

5-9gpm pump: 7200-12960

Of course the figures could be off a little, but for the most part, those are the numbers off the pumps themselves.

This should not be the first thing a customer should look at, as there are other factors that are more important. But, for the sake of this thread, I hope those numbers help. If any of the figures are off, I hope someone will point that out to me.

[thestallion]

I am not expecting to fill the bus with converts. I just want to make sure the right information is given out as there only seems to be two schools of thought on the subject, small circ. pump or low speed pump. Some companies utilize both a circ. pump and low speed filter cycles. Other companies, and I don't believe Sundance is the only one to do this, use a larger, 48 frame circulation pump.

Here are some approximate costs to run certain items:

Ratings on the pumps:

Low speed on a 2.5hp 2sp. pump = about 3.3 amps = around 792 watts

35 gpm circ pump = around 140 watts

5-9gpm circ pump = 65 to 85 watts

Wattage cost:

Running a low speed pump for 4 hours = 3160 watts

Running the 35 gpm circ pump for 24 hours = 3360 watts

5-9gpm circ pump = 1560-2040 watts

Cost per month @ 30 days:

low speed pump @ 4 hours = 94.8kw

35gpm circ pump = 100.08kw

5-9gpm circ pump = 46.8kw - 61.2kw

Gallons filtered:

low speed pump: Around 26400

35gpm pump: 50400

5-9gpm pump: 7200-12960

Of course the figures could be off a little, but for the most part, those are the numbers off the pumps themselves.

This should not be the first thing a customer should look at, as there are other factors that are more important. But, for the sake of this thread, I hope those numbers help. If any of the figures are off, I hope someone will point that out to me.

I think this is good example and only lacks one thing. The extra time the small circ pump has to use the larger pumps I.E. clean up cycles and even the same thing that those using the larger circ pump also do.

[ciderjack]

I think this is good example and only lacks one thing. The extra time the small circ pump has to use the larger pumps I.E. clean up cycles and even the same thing that those using the larger circ pump also do.

Does Hotspring use filter cycles with their small circ. pump? I didn't think they did, only the cleanup cycle that is only on when the button is pushed. If I am wrong, please correct me. Sundance still uses the low speed pump to filter on the tubs that still use the small circ. pump, and that is factory default at 2 hours.

The point of the larger circ. pump is that you do not need the larger pumps to make up anything.

There are many ways to filter a tub. What is more important to you? Filtering capacity? Cost? Programability(is that even a word?)?

Or, is it not important to you at all?

[thestallion]

Does Hotspring use filter cycles with their small circ. pump? I didn't think they did, only the cleanup cycle that is only on when the button is pushed. If I am wrong, please correct me. Sundance still uses the low speed pump to filter on the tubs that still use the small circ. pump, and that is factory default at 2 hours.

The point of the larger circ. pump is that you do not need the larger pumps to make up anything.

There are many ways to filter a tub. What is more important to you? Filtering capacity? Cost? Programability(is that even a word?)?

Or, is it not important to you at all?

humm I am not sure if its a word or not but it should be As for the Hot Springs that is the answer to the low flow short comings simply hit the clean up cycle for more water turnover. As for the Sun dance it sounds like a great way but a costly one. My point to all of this is that they all work with EACH having a down side. My issue has been with those who tout the small circ pump as a cure all for everything. Again they can all work with each offering a benefit that the other does not.

[Brulan1]

humm I am not sure if its a word or not but it should be As for the Hot Springs that is the answer to the low flow short comings simply hit the clean up cycle for more water turnover. As for the Sun dance it sounds like a great way but a costly one. My point to all of this is that they all work with EACH having a down side. My issue has been with those who tout the small circ pump as a cure all for everything. Again they can all work with each offering a benefit that the other does not.

Good point. A circulating pump is just moving the water around except for hotsprings. HS is the way all circulating pumps should work. At least the water is being filtered and not just moved around.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Good point. A circulating pump is just moving the water around except for hotsprings.

What does that mean? The pump draws water in through the filter so what's the "just moving the water around" supposed to mean? Is this another of your famous "Cliff Claven like" spa salesmanship theories?

[Brulan1]

What does that mean? The pump draws water in through the filter so what's the "just moving the water around" supposed to mean? Is this another of your famous "Cliff Claven like" spa salesmanship theories?

not 100 percent, just the water in the facinity of the pump is being filtered, and for the rest, it is being moved around so it doesn't become stagnant.

[ciderjack]

The Sundance circ pump moves a lot of water, so it is not just the water in the vacinity of the pump that is being filtered.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

not 100 percent, just the water in the facinity of the pump is being filtered, and for the rest, it is being moved around so it doesn't become stagnant.

Water is not viscous Claven, errr Brulan. Circ pump don't keep drawing in the SAME water molecules while the water on the other side of the spa sits there like a lump of clay LOL.

[Brulan1]

Water is not viscous Claven, errr Brulan. Circ pump don't keep drawing in the SAME water molecules while the water on the other side of the spa sits there like a lump of clay LOL.

so tell me Avagadro what do molecules do when they are excited in water?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

so tell me Avagadro what do molecules do when they are excited in water?

Get aroused? I'm not sure hwat you're referring to.

[Brulan1]

Get aroused? I'm not sure hwat you're referring to.

go to google and type into the query Avagadro's number.

[grahamtasia]

Circulation pumps circulate the water, so that your jet pumps don't have too.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

go to google and type into the query Avagadro's number.

I didn't say I'd never heard of Avogadro's number. I was simply saying "so what's your point". I've seen some of your spa salesmanship theories of irrelevance and I'd like to see you take a hack at this subject.

Are you sure you weren't referring to Avocados?