How Much Mark Up Is Their On Spas?

[great white]

I look at foam filled as a big negative

There's absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing one of the less expensive brands on the market today (IE:Costco). I considered several before I bought my Hot Springs.

The buyer just has to be happy with what they get and accept whatever compromises the manufacturer has made to meet that price point......

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

I think your question may be too broad for the answer you're looking for. Pick a tub to compare the costco one to and then you can line components/specs up side by side for a meaningful comparison. But even then, some things may not be readily available. Some examples might be seal construction and bearing materials. Not to mention how much a manufacturer may have spent on developing/building a vacuum forming mold or the employee wages involved in hand rolling fiberglass (if the tub has that).

As in any manufactured product, there's much more to price differences than just the installed components.

However, if you have decided on buying a Strong/Costco model, do the differences (real or perceived) really matter?

Buy one and be happy with your purchase.

Go for a soak!

[hrustar]

Here's my two cents.

I'd rather know I paid a little more and tried to get superior quality (whether real or perceived) instead of paying less and hoping it works out. If you like the Costco tub, go for it and don't look for justification from others. It it works out for you, fantastic. If not, oh well, live and learn.

[arf1410]

Here's my two cents.

I'd rather know I paid a little more and tried to get superior quality (whether real or perceived) instead of paying less and hoping it works out. If you like the Costco tub, go for it and don't look for justification from others. It it works out for you, fantastic. If not, oh well, live and learn.

Yes, I'm leaning towards the Strong CX80, but waiting for them to offer that with a lounger. However, it is tough buying something of that price sight unseen, and I am an admitted novice. However, also I am an mechanical engineer, who's brain functions on "facts and data", and I do have a little knowledge of manufacturing, design, and patent processes. I am willing to pay a little more for a lot more quality, but at best I have seen on this board I can pay a lot more, for possibly a little more quality. There are a lot of people with some Strong (pun intended) opinions on this (and most other!) forums, but there are unable or unwilling to supply hard facts and data. I understand that unless you have worked as an engineer/designer at a spa manufacturing company, a surely small sub-set of people, you probably wouldn't have the details of pump brands / model #s to debate a better pump, etc. But I sense some of the contributors here may have (or still do) worked at a Spa retailer(s), but don't want to share specific wholesale price data. Keeping those secrets makes me suspicious, which is why I SPECULATE Joe corner retail spa store pays $5000 for a tub they retail for $8000. I certainly accept a $12000 tub may have better components that the Strong/Costco tub. But I'm not willing to spend $12k, though I am willing to spend $7-8k if someone can supply real data to show its better than the $5k Costco tub...and so far, they have not...

[Roger]

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

I'm absolutly sure you don't want this answer so whats the difference? Very specificly a top end tub will have a better fit and finish, better jets, better engineered plumbing system, cleaner, neater equipment bay, better pumps and control system. A long standing reputation for reliability and longevity. A better warranty, a dealer to back up your purchase and answer your questions right down the road, or if your worried about your dealer a manufacturer that hasn't comprimised quality for a price point forced upon them by a big box store.

7500 is a good price for this though 8500 might be better. But you have a return policy with Costco.....maybe.

[Roger]

I looked a a Strong cxi80 the other day. It's not a bad tub but it's also not the same as an 8500 dollar D1. Allot of bullet jets and only like 8-10 real jets and they are just spinners. Basic value pumps and controler. Worth the 5 grand.

Maybe you should try out some jets before you buy. Feel the differences. I think waterway makes about 70-80 different jets ranging in price from 12 to 60 bucks. Haven't looked at there new catolog.

[great white]

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

I'm absolutly sure you don't want this answer so whats the difference? Very specificly a top end tub will have a better fit and finish, better jets, better engineered plumbing system, cleaner, neater equipment bay, better pumps and control system. A long standing reputation for reliability and longevity. A better warranty, a dealer to back up your purchase and answer your questions right down the road, or if your worried about your dealer a manufacturer that hasn't comprimised quality for a price point forced upon them by a big box store.

7500 is a good price for this though 8500 might be better. But you have a return policy with Costco.....maybe.

Well, to play devils advocate here......

The equipment bay of my (on order) Hot Springs Grandee was actually a bit of a dissapointment on "neatness" when they popped the door off the floor model for me. Wiring was bundled sloppily, wires running everywhere, no cable standoffs, etc. The equipment compartment of the H2o model was 10 times "neater". In thier defence though, everything was grometted and/or molexed. The remaining connections were all very robust and solid. Visably more so than the H2o, calspa, beachcomber and Arctic models we looked at.

Now, did it turn me off on the whole package?

Obviously not. I know there's more to quality than just routing the wiring neatly.

But I did expect to see neat and impecable wire routing and specifcally cut lengths rather than bundles for the price I paid.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Keeping those secrets makes me suspicious, which is why I SPECULATE Joe corner retail spa store pays $5000 for a tub they retail for $8000. I certainly accept a $12000 tub may have better components that the Strong/Costco tub. But I'm not willing to spend $12k, though I am willing to spend $7-8k if someone can supply real data to show its better than the $5k Costco tub...and so far, they have not...

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

I know from experience that quality matters when you care about energy efficiency, equipment longevity, structure, jets, plumbing integrity, etc. I see quality brands that r 14, 17, 20 yrs old going strong. I know lesser quality spas r cheap/free on Craigslist all the time when 8 yrs old for a reason (u haul it u got it) and r rarely around after a decade.

Call a local independent spa service tech in your area. Get his opinion of big box spas the past 5 years or decade versus premium spas. See what he has to say. I get the feeling after he tells you "you get what you pay for" you'll still look to justify buying the costco LOL.

[Roger]

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

Car dealers....LOL I am the fleet manager for the company I work for and have purchased about 60 vehicles in the last 7 years. Invoice is what they pay minus manufacturer volume discount, finiance discount and so on and so on!!.

OK sorry back on topic.

[great white]

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

Car dealers....LOL I am the fleet manager for the company I work for and have purchased about 60 vehicles in the last 7 years. Invoice is what they pay minus manufacturer volume discount, finiance discount and so on and so on!!.

OK sorry back on topic.

Actually, the price on the window sticker is "manufacturers suggested retail" and has nothing to do with what it cost to buy or build it....

Crap, off topic again....

[arf1410]

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

I'm absolutly sure you don't want this answer so whats the difference? Very specificly a top end tub will have a better fit and finish, better jets, better engineered plumbing system, cleaner, neater equipment bay, better pumps and control system. A long standing reputation for reliability and longevity. A better warranty, a dealer to back up your purchase and answer your questions right down the road, or if your worried about your dealer a manufacturer that hasn't comprimised quality for a price point forced upon them by a big box store.

7500 is a good price for this though 8500 might be better. But you have a return policy with Costco.....maybe.

I DO want those answers! But I want specific answers! What is the specific pump manufacturer and model number in a Strong CX80, and how does it compare to specific pump part number in someone else's 8500$ tub? Same question for Control Panel, and any other parts that can be objectively measured. Unless you have that info, and can provide specific examples (even for other tubs) how can I separate a salesman's hype from fact?

I tried to compare Strong warranty 5/2/1 with Cal Spa (a mid range product?), for example, and my first google "hit" was someone screaming about their refusal to honor a 5 year warranty because a seal went bad and water leaked into a pump...I googled "Jacuzzi" and "warranty" and I found it is a parts and labor long warranty sounds good...I also found someone complaining that Jacuzzi tells them to contact the retailer, and the retailer telling them to contact Jacuzzi for warranty service... I have confidence in Costco backing up a warranty...

[arf1410]

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

Of course they won't tell you...and if I was in retail, I wouldn't want that secret out either! which is why I use the internet to research just about every purchase >$1000, where bargaining on price is an option...to get that information, and I usually am successful!

[great white]

Some info on the subject in question from the Costco site:

Evolution Spas™ CSXi80

80-Jet, 6-Person Spa with Storage Steps

Relax and enjoy! Your home will become the social center where friends and family gather. Any day can be special with your own personal spa retreat! The luxury edition Evolution CSXi80 has 80 powerful stainless steel accented Hydrotherapy Jets. An astounding 680 gallons per minute is driven through our two-speed, dual-pump, HydroDrive system for maximum massage power… while still using LESS ENERGY than traditional pumps! Feel stress melt away as dedicated rollover neck and shoulder jets soothe aching muscles. The Lucite™ acrylic shell is enhanced with Microban technology for a cleaner spa using fewer chemicals and comes in two designer colors: Sterling Silver (white) shell with millstone slate rock cabinet or Pearl Shadow (black) shell with grey slate rock cabinet. Ergonomic seating for six adults is enhanced by a programmable LED light display that includes 5” underwater light and 16 separate starburst points of light, adjusted topside with the touch of a button.

Our elegant, slate rock resin DURA-LAST™ cabinet is beautiful yet it is so durable it can be placed on any level and stable surface without a spa pad saving you hundreds of dollars on install costs!

The most advanced technological innovations in the industry converge in this amazing spa. Unlike other spa frames, the CSXi80’s cabinet will NEVER require maintenance and will be just as beautiful in the years to come as the very first day! The cabinet is impervious to pests and inhibits the growth of bacteria for a cleaner spa, inside and out! Wood frames will rot, warp and are prone to infestations. Steel frames, whether galvanized or powder coated, will rust and weaken but the DURA-LAST™ cabinet will never deteriorate and we guarantee it with the industry’s first LIFETIME WARRANTY!

Our DURA-LAST™ cabinet is constructed with a custom blend of both virgin and recycled materials and is itself 100% recyclable! The unique HEATSHIELD™ insulation system results in almost zero release of harmful CFCs into the environment. Our beautiful Lucite Acrylic shells are reinforced with environmentally sound Acrylobond, which releases no harmful Styrene into the atmosphere and is the eco-friendly alternative to fiberglass. Our commitment to the environment extends to our factory and all Evolution Spas are made in the USA.

A Commitment to the Environment

Our patent-pending insulated FORGE-CAST™ system reduces noise and is the most energy efficient technology on the market today. The patent-pending HEATSHIELD™ insulated cabinet base and walls have a unique double walled construction that is filled with 3.9lb, high-density, closed cell foam – similar to a thermos or freezer. The heat generated by the pumps within this thermal zone is constantly being recycled to heat your spa, saving energy and money!

Choose from Two Color Combinations:

Sterling Silver (white with iridescent pearl marbling) shell paired with Millstone Granite Slate Rock Cabinet

Pearl Shadow (black) shell paired with Grey Granite Slate Rock Cabinet

Specifications:

Seating: 6-person

Dimensions: 92" x 92" x 36" (outside cabinet)

Jet Pump: 680 gallons per minute, 2-speed dual-pump, high performance, energy saving HydroDrive system controlled by digital topside control panel

Jet Count: 80 stainless steel accented, including:

12 leg jets

8 shoulder/neck jets

4 foot/ankle jets

4 hip jets

23 large jets

29 cluster jets

Air Controls: 4 controls for zoned massage control

Weight Dry / Filled: 950 lbs. / 3,920 lbs.

Water Capacity: 355 USG

Electrical: 220 V / 240 V / 50 Amp GFCI Breaker Required (not included - electrical connections must be made by qualified and licensed personnel. Improper installations present hazards, which can result in personal injury or property damage. Please contact a licensed residential electrician for these services.)

Heater: 5.5 kW Balboa

Filter: Top loading cartridge

Ozonator: Yes

Insulation: 3.9 lb, high density spray foamed cabinet

Features:

Steps included

Water Treatment: Corona Discharge Ozone System installed creates a more pure form of ozone – more efficient, cleaner water, fewer chemicals required

Water Features: Custom matching back lit resin waterfall

Lighting: 5" color-changing LED underwater light and 16 synchronized, color-changing LED points of light

Headrests: 2 Headrests

DURA-LAST™ Dual-Walled Cabinet System is energy efficient, quiet and is designed to withstand extreme temperatures

Cover: High Quality Tapered Cover

Warranty:

LIFETIME WARRANTY on cabinet system

5 year against cracking, blistering, fading, and delaminating of shell

2 year for all mechanical and solid state components

2 year on authorized labor

1 year on cover

For more information about this product, visit our website www.evospas.com, email info@evospas.com or call the Evolution Spas™ Service Center: 800-787-6649 (8am - 6pm EST, M-F).

http://www.evospas.com/CSXi80.html

Interesting, FWIW:

http://forum.ih8mud.com/workshop-home-impr...pa-hot-tub.html

In the video posted here:

http://evo-spas.com/index.php?model=csxi80

You can see the controler as a balboa vs series:

http://www.balboainstruments.com/page142.html

So, it's logical that the top panel is the balboa model designed to work with it:

http://www.balboainstruments.com/page158.html

It certainly looks similar, minus a few features/buttons. Changing the "skin" on the controller is a relatively simple operation when the hot tub company orders them.

Hmm, by the adress on the picture for the costco model:

It appears to be calleda "vienna" (right click, properties, read the name). And, oddly enough, the "vienna 66" model on the strong web site : http://www.strongpoolsandspas.com/page.php?pageid=19 ; looks pretty much the same. Using that name may reveal more component info if you put google to work. Just be aware that the "Vienna 66" Strong sells and the CSXi80 costco buys from them may have differences....

If you keep digging, the info is out there....

[DK117]

I looked a a Strong cxi80 the other day. It's not a bad tub but it's also not the same as an 8500 dollar D1. Allot of bullet jets and only like 8-10 real jets and they are just spinners. Basic value pumps and controler. Worth the 5 grand.

Maybe you should try out some jets before you buy. Feel the differences. I think waterway makes about 70-80 different jets ranging in price from 12 to 60 bucks. Haven't looked at there new catolog.

Roger, Strong is a value tub, we get it, we purchase with our eyes open. Question to you ... what would an $8500 D1 cost from Costco? This Strong/Costco discussion is old news. What we've never arrived at is the margin / mark up of dealers. Personally I have a great relationship with my local dealer. I think they make their money on service, chemicals and ... well gas stoves. They've been great. So after purchase service can be obtained from a source other than where the spa was purchased (as you must know as an independent tech.) So can you provide us with specific insight on margins? Can anyone? Will anyone?

DK117

[arf1410]

Found this on this forum:

"Jacuzzi and Sundance want their dealers to make a 40% margin and sale at MSRP. SO find out what the MSRP and deduct 40%. Next add $250-$400 for shipping and that should be a very accurate number of what they paid. (I am a former Sundance dealer and almost started selling Jacuzzi 2 years ago.) I discounted a lot compared to any other dealer but would never drop below a $2500.00 profit margin. If the customer wanted to haggle I always suggest another hot tub store since I was always at least a thousand below any other Sundance Spa dealership. "

Lets assume for the sake of discussion, it is factual, which of course I cannot verify...

I would be shocked if Costco profits more than $500, and could easily believe it is closer to $100-$200. And even though Spa aren't Costco's best selling item, they drive such a hard bargain on wholesalers, I tend to think they pay less then a spa dealer...which is why I really believe you get what you pay for, and a $4900 Costco tub would have similar build quality as a 7000-8000 tub sold at a Spa Dealer.

Let me throw in another Costco example...being here in the Seattle area, where Costco is based, we get lots of Costco news in the local business pages. Earlier this week, Costco stopped stocking Coke, because Coke refused to sell Costco product at the price point Costco wanted...Sure they'll kiss and make up soon, but very few merchants have that power (or balls!) to say "see you later" to Coke. What was happening was Costco was retailing Coke for a price lower than the local bottlers were selling product to merchants, and the bottlers were getting upset that Ed's mini-mart , etc was buying product at Costco, rather than the bottlers. Coke tried to raise the price to Costco to appease the bottlers, and Costco said "NO"

Its within the realm of possibility that some of the previous Costco Spa brands (and maybe even Strong now) were actually selling product to Costco at a loss, in the hope that with enough volume, they could drive down production costs, and make money in the long run. Sufficient volume never came, and they went under.

[arf1410]

OK, I guess everyone here now knows I must be a loser if I spend Friday nights on an internet Forum :-)

Thanks to some clue that Great White provided, it appears the Costco Evo CX80 is nearly identical to the Strong Vienna, (though the costco seems to have a few more features) I found the Strong Vienna advertised ranging from $6999 to $8275! That supports some of my claims!

[great white]

OK, I guess everyone here now knows I must be a loser if I spend Friday nights on an internet Forum :-)

Thanks to some clue that Great White provided, it appears the Costco Evo CX80 is nearly identical to the Strong Vienna, (though the costco seems to have a few more features) I found the Strong Vienna advertised for $8275! That supports some of my claims!

Stressing about the difference between a dealer price and the costco price is pointless. Costco is going to beat a dealer, not even a question. Also, I've found costco listings for the csxi from 4779.00 to 6499.00 on the web which shows how pointless wondering about who has the highest mark up is.

I guess you have to decide if you're looking for the best price and buy the tub that fits, or choose the tub you want and find the best price.

If your major concern is price, just buy the Costco tub and then enjoy a nice long soak!

We, however, went the other way and found the most comfortable/nicest tub (for us at least) and then squeezed out the best price we could get.....

[hot_water]

Yup, it's even identified as a Vienna on the shipping packaging.

Costco CEO Jim Senegal has stated that Costco doesn't mark anything up more than 14%. They make their money off membership dues. For lots of items, especially high end stuff, markup is less. So arf is more or less right. But I think it's really more about the value proposition that each tub offers... and that's subjective since each will product will have features that appeal to some of us more than others.

As I evaluated my purchase, I thought Strong had the clear edge on the cabinet. You can get a nicer cabinet from some of the high end guys, but it will cost you some major bucks. The strong rotomolded cabinet is pretty nice looking, great warranty, very good floor. The Balboa VS is the same quality and reliability as Balboa's higher end units (it handles fewer pumps and fewer two-speed pumps than you can get in the higher end models). You can call Balboa on this, I did. Some of the name brand guys provide the titanium heater, which may last longer. So they do better there. I rate the Strong acrylic/acrylobond shell as superior to an abs shell, but would prefer a name brand acrylic/fiberglass shell because of the track record. I rate the Strong's serviceability as a HUGE advantage. It will be VERY easy to work on this spa, even compared to other perimeter insulated models. As for build fit and finish and general workmanship, the Strong is very good - surprisingly good. I would call that even. I am very happy with Strong-supplied cover, but I rated it a negative based on some comments here. I wasn't expecting much but now that's it's here, it looks real good. We shall see how it does over the colder months. As for jets, Strong provides a huge number (80) of jets, but they are all single stream jets. I don't mind those but some people may prefer the cluster jets. I would have liked it better if there was a cluster jet or two in each position. The name brand guys do better in this area. I called pumps a tie... the Strong uses good motors, classs F insulation, rated at 12 amps (two of these plus the 5.5 kW heater means that 12 A is about as much as you can load a 60 A service with (60 A shouldn't draw more than 48 amps continuously).

So, the Strong wins in a few areas but loses in some others. I think it's a mistake to get wrapped up in all this nonsense about how this $5k one compares to that $8k one. It all boils down to what are you looking for in a spa. For me, the pro's for the Strong were good and the con's were not that important.... for example I can change that heater to a titanium model in three or four years..... so the value proposition put forth by the Strong - against my personal requirements - made Strong an easy choice. By the way, I didn't feel that way about the CalSpa offerings offerings by Costco - they just didn't suit me too well, although they could suit others just dandy.

[Roger]

Its within the realm of possibility that some of the previous Costco Spa brands (and maybe even Strong now) were actually selling product to Costco at a loss, in the hope that with enough volume, they could drive down production costs, and make money in the long run. Sufficient volume never came, and they went under.

There ya go, cut a few corners cheapen up a few things here and there and pray. Sound business plan.....LOL

[salp]

OK, I guess everyone here now knows I must be a loser if I spend Friday nights on an internet Forum :-)

Thanks to some clue that Great White provided, it appears the Costco Evo CX80 is nearly identical to the Strong Vienna, (though the costco seems to have a few more features) I found the Strong Vienna advertised for $8275! That supports some of my claims!

Stressing about the difference between a dealer price and the costco price is pointless. Costco is going to beat a dealer, not even a question. Also, I've found costco listings for the csxi from 4779.00 to 6499.00 on the web which shows how pointless wondering about who has the highest mark up is.

I guess you have to decide if you're looking for the best price and buy the tub that fits, or choose the tub you want and find the best price.

If your major concern is price, just buy the Costco tub and then enjoy a nice long soak!

We, however, went the other way and found the most comfortable/nicest tub (for us at least) and then squeezed out the best price we could get.....

you took the words right out of my mouth.......

[hottubdan]

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

Of course they won't tell you...and if I was in retail, I wouldn't want that secret out either! which is why I use the internet to research just about every purchase >$1000, where bargaining on price is an option...to get that information, and I usually am successful!

Just curious. Besides spas and cars, what else can you bargain on?

Besides, you can't bargain at Costco.

[hottubdan]

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?

I'm absolutly sure you don't want this answer so whats the difference? Very specificly a top end tub will have a better fit and finish, better jets, better engineered plumbing system, cleaner, neater equipment bay, better pumps and control system. A long standing reputation for reliability and longevity. A better warranty, a dealer to back up your purchase and answer your questions right down the road, or if your worried about your dealer a manufacturer that hasn't comprimised quality for a price point forced upon them by a big box store.

7500 is a good price for this though 8500 might be better. But you have a return policy with Costco.....maybe.

I DO want those answers! But I want specific answers! What is the specific pump manufacturer and model number in a Strong CX80, and how does it compare to specific pump part number in someone else's 8500$ tub? Same question for Control Panel, and any other parts that can be objectively measured. Unless you have that info, and can provide specific examples (even for other tubs) how can I separate a salesman's hype from fact?

I tried to compare Strong warranty 5/2/1 with Cal Spa (a mid range product?), for example, and my first google "hit" was someone screaming about their refusal to honor a 5 year warranty because a seal went bad and water leaked into a pump...I googled "Jacuzzi" and "warranty" and I found it is a parts and labor long warranty sounds good...I also found someone complaining that Jacuzzi tells them to contact the retailer, and the retailer telling them to contact Jacuzzi for warranty service... I have confidence in Costco backing up a warranty...

I'm in the business and I can't tell you that. What I do know is what you suspect. Dealer's costs are more than Csotco's, often for a better product. Dealer's margins are more than Costco's. NEEDED to be in business.

What I learned long ago, is that some people prefer to buy from box stores. Doesn't matter the product. Some people prefer to buy from specialty retailers. It's OK.

[hottubdan]

Found this on this forum:

"Jacuzzi and Sundance want their dealers to make a 40% margin and sale at MSRP. SO find out what the MSRP and deduct 40%. Next add $250-$400 for shipping and that should be a very accurate number of what they paid. (I am a former Sundance dealer and almost started selling Jacuzzi 2 years ago.) I discounted a lot compared to any other dealer but would never drop below a $2500.00 profit margin. If the customer wanted to haggle I always suggest another hot tub store since I was always at least a thousand below any other Sundance Spa dealership. "

Lets assume for the sake of discussion, it is factual, which of course I cannot verify...

I would be shocked if Costco profits more than $500, and could easily believe it is closer to $100-$200. And even though Spa aren't Costco's best selling item, they drive such a hard bargain on wholesalers, I tend to think they pay less then a spa dealer...which is why I really believe you get what you pay for, and a $4900 Costco tub would have similar build quality as a 7000-8000 tub sold at a Spa Dealer.

Let me throw in another Costco example...being here in the Seattle area, where Costco is based, we get lots of Costco news in the local business pages. Earlier this week, Costco stopped stocking Coke, because Coke refused to sell Costco product at the price point Costco wanted...Sure they'll kiss and make up soon, but very few merchants have that power (or balls!) to say "see you later" to Coke. What was happening was Costco was retailing Coke for a price lower than the local bottlers were selling product to merchants, and the bottlers were getting upset that Ed's mini-mart , etc was buying product at Costco, rather than the bottlers. Coke tried to raise the price to Costco to appease the bottlers, and Costco said "NO"

Its within the realm of possibility that some of the previous Costco Spa brands (and maybe even Strong now) were actually selling product to Costco at a loss, in the hope that with enough volume, they could drive down production costs, and make money in the long run. Sufficient volume never came, and they went under.

We have sold Jacuzzi and I can tell you the quote above is not even close to being accurate.

Fact is even if a spa is sold to Costco for $500 over cost, it doesn't take a lot of returns to make that "profit" a loss.

Seattle is the home of two of the most successful dealers in our industry. Aquaquip sells Sundance and Jacuzzi; Olympic Hot Tub sells Hot Spring. Have you visited them? Wonder what your thoughts are.

[hot_water]

Go ask the furniture store for their invoices. Just because cars show them (or show what they call their invoice LOL) doesn't mean a spa dealer should have to.

Of course they won't tell you...and if I was in retail, I wouldn't want that secret out either! which is why I use the internet to research just about every purchase >$1000, where bargaining on price is an option...to get that information, and I usually am successful!

Just curious. Besides spas and cars, what else can you bargain on?

Besides, you can't bargain at Costco.

Depends on where you buy your stuff. I tend to get major appliances, TVs, stereo gear, major tools (machinery such as welding gear, dill press, etc), jewelry and other things of that ilk at small dealers, and always make offers. It never hurts to make an offer. It's rare that the owner/manager of a store that's not a chain will refuse to work out a price. Well, for jewelry the small jewelers are not the best... there are major dealers that will negotiate and you can get some good pricing, as long as you educate yourself first.

[hot_water]

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that a dealer can or should compare with Costco pricing. They can't, because the business models are so different. How could anyone compete with a business who doesn't aim to make their profit off of sales, and will accept returns for life based only on "customer satisfaction"?? I feel sorry for dealers in this scenario. They deserve to be able to earn a living just like any other business. But to do so, they need to offer consumers a good reason to buy their product for 3k more than the one at Costco. That's more or less the bottom line, no?

You migh argue that the major manufacturers are doing this. But it's all subjective, depending on what you find valuable. "Great white" has commented on the snob appeal (no offense intended - we all buy stuff for status sometimes) of having a name brand, but that might not matter in the slightest to another buyer. It doesn't matter to me... I could care less, for instance, if it's a Hotspring - as long as it looks good and works good, I find that my guests enjoy it no matter what the nameplate says.... they don't know diddly about who makes these things, anyway.

But... from a consumer perspective, the value proposition offered by Costco is hard to argue against. As long as the spa meets your personal needs and you are comfortable foregoing the benefits of dealer support (sometimes worth a lot, sometimes not worth squat depending on the dealer and the consumer's competence level).... then you simply aren't going to beat Costco. It's sold at near cost, for cryin' out loud! All the other arguments are just peripheral.

The quality arguments are nebulous at best. I will agree that some of the Keyes sspas were poor. I won't agree that all the Hydrospas were junk -- mine was quite good for the three years I had it, with no signs of problems at all. Yes it could blow up for the new owners at any time. But it was half the price of the Sundance Optima, compares well, and could be repaired quite easily. Besides.... the Strong *isn't* any of those other brands. About all you can really say about the Strong is that none of us knows anything about the longevity of the Strong product. On the other hand, if it proves to be a disaster, back it goes.

So, as the old saying goes, "You pays your money and you makes your choice".

I do personally appreciate industry posters that acknowledge the tradeoffs more accurately and objectively and can discuss the pros and cons of the various types without the somewhat absurd "Costco sells junk" undertones. This is far more useful to potential buyers.

[arf1410]

OK, I'll attempt to reply to multiple questions...

I don't think I'm stressing out as much as doing "due diligence", as this is potentially the first time I may purchase a $5k product sight unseen, if I go with Costco, and I checked, there are no local Strong dealers here. I am willing to spend up to ~$7500, but of course would rather spend $5k...so I am attempting to research what that extra $2500 would get me.

I work for a major manufacturing company, and when we start producing a new product, we are literally $BILLIONS in the red, selling product in a sense for way less than cost, for the first 3-5+ years, but assuming we stay in business, make that up as time goes on, without actually changing our prices, but production costs go down. A start up Spa company may very well be gambling on the same production model, but of course on a smaller scale. So what if it is flawed business model...I might as well try to profit on their "flawed model"

In addition to houses and cars, in recent years, and using the internet for data, I have bargained on furniture, appliances, pianos, exercise equipment, AV equipment. You CAN bargain at Sears, and BestBUy, to name a couple major chains, in addition to most local chains or stores.

I bought a high end treadmill a few years ago. Turns out most of the major treadmill brands are sold only at one store (or chain) within a given metro area, so you cannot go down the street and try to get a better price on the same item, like you can with a car. On the internet I found a copy of a letter the treadmill company sent to retail outlets stating what the minimum price they could contractually sell the treadmill for was...I always thought that was illegal/price fixing, but a lawyer friend of mine explained how the nuances of the language of the letter avoided that issue. But anyway I told the store I knew about there minimum price point, and saved $700. Buying other equipment at the same time helped.

I have already been to Aquaquip, a northwest spa chain, and will also look at Olympic...and thats exactly the problem. What they show me, that at least on paper seems comparable to the Costco, seem to cost ~$8k, and I am attempting to use this forum to determine if that extra $3k gets me real, and substantial value, or $500 in more value (which I would pay for) and $2000 in higher overhead and commissions...which I dont want.