How Much Mark Up Is Their On Spas?

[elkski]

I just read nearly all the famous cosco new hot tub thread and the thread really got off track and never answered my question. How much does it cost to build a spa and how much is the markup on a spa from these nearly always empty spa showrooms that abound. I ahve read where the markup is 40% or so. If this is ture you can see where costco and Strong think that there is room for a new deployment strategy.

My 40% number comes from some links I read but how much does it really cost for 2 pumps a blower, a heater pac, topside, frame, cover, and jets? I mean the system is simple and compared to something like a 5k 60" plasma tv or even an ATV it is not very high tech.

I have never really considered buying a spa from a traveling display and have just glances at the ones at Costco over the years thinking they must be cheap but now with all I read I might just look at the Costco offerings if I decide my Old Coleman spa is to old to keep repairing.

I do however wonder about the spa experience of the folks buying the Costco spas and if they would be able to tell what good jets feel like. I am not sure I know what a real good jetted tub feels like. I do have 2 5 Hp pumps but cant imagine a single pump being very nice like on some models.

[great white]

I just read nearly all the famous cosco new hot tub thread and the thread really got off track and never answered my question. How much does it cost to build a spa and how much is the markup on a spa from these nearly always empty spa showrooms that abound. I ahve read where the markup is 40% or so. If this is ture you can see where costco and Strong think that there is room for a new deployment strategy.

My 40% number comes from some links I read but how much does it really cost for 2 pumps a blower, a heater pac, topside, frame, cover, and jets? I mean the system is simple and compared to something like a 5k 60" plasma tv or even an ATV it is not very high tech.

I have never really considered buying a spa from a traveling display and have just glances at the ones at Costco over the years thinking they must be cheap but now with all I read I might just look at the Costco offerings if I decide my Old Coleman spa is to old to keep repairing.

I do however wonder about the spa experience of the folks buying the Costco spas and if they would be able to tell what good jets feel like. I am not sure I know what a real good jetted tub feels like. I do have 2 5 Hp pumps but cant imagine a single pump being very nice like on some models.

Good question, but bet we'll just never know.

It would be awful stupid on a manufacturers part (great for the consumer) to let out info like "yeah, we charge 12 grand for something that costs around 4 grand to build".

One thing that I find people don't consider is the R&D costs that go into a higher "quality" tub. As in, the research that goes into what makes a comfy seat, what makes a good jet, better plumbing, etc. The (for lack of a better term) bargain tubs all seemed rather plain when it can to jetting nor does it seem much time went into the shell design. More jets and a simlar tub design to the big manufacturers maybe. But it seem it's these are the jet you get , these are the way they work, and this is pretty much where the hole should be based on copying another desgn or an older design.

After wet testing several models on both sides of the price range (from 6000 to 13000) guess which one we bought?

Yup, 13000.

It was the HS Grandee. It held water like all the less expensive tubs, it kept it warm like all the less expensive tubs. But the seating was much more comfortable and versatile (swing seating options, etc) and the jet massage/quality/control was unrivaled by any of the less expensive tubs. I literally could not find one uncomfortable spot or somewhere I did not want to sit infront of a jet. One of my friends has a 5000 dolalr tub and he doesn't regret it, but he doesn't completely enjoy it. One of his comments is " if you sit in this seat here and turn the jets on, you better be holding on cause it will try and throw you right out of the tub". It has no real pressure adjustment other than air bubbles. Consequently, he doesn't use that seat with jets ever.

I found the rather unquantifiable "feel of quality" was much higher than the less expensive models we looked at. I would equate it to looking at a Chevy and a BMW. Sure, they both will get you back and forth to work, but the BMW has a higher fit and finish, more engineering in the componenets and is just a nicer all around experience (yes,a BMW will break down just like a Chevy will). Not quite a compete analogy, but close enough for this discussion.

Also, call me shallow, but there a certain pride in ownership/bragging rights when someone walks up to the car (hottub) and goes "Oooo, nice Beemer (Hot Springs)". Yeah, like I said, I'm shallow.

On another note, after digging around in the guts of 10-15 diferent tubs and researching the components and component manufacturers, I have come to know (as much as any consumer ever really does) that just because a pump or controller has a brand name on it doesn't mean it's always an "apples to apples" comparison. Just because it's a Gecko controller/pump doesn't mean it's the same quality across their entire line. Lesser "entry" lines are built to a price point to keep costs down which, ultimately, means some quality/durability/feature is given up to make that price. It often comes down to the quality/composition of bearings, seals, connections, etc that makes one line from a component manufacturer different than thier next line up (read: more expensive/longer lasting).

So, after all this blah blah blah on my part, the short answer for me is this:

No, I don't know what the profit marging is.

But, I'm willing to bet the percentage is not far off from a "high end model" from a "low end model"......IE: they all charge too much!

[arf1410]

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc. While I doubt manufacturers will come to this board and divuldge much proprietary information, the Spa industry is big enough, that I'm sure a former manager of a Spa retail store may provide some good insight. Of course, as with any anonymous forum, no guarantees the info posted is factual...I think what the original poster is wondering about and me to, is how much would a $4500 costco tub retail for at a traditional spa store.

I admit I am totally guessing at these numbers, but if you have "inside info" feel free to comment. Costco is going to be much lower markup, and higher volume than a typical Spa retail store. I would GUESS a $4500 Costco tub, Costco is able to buy for $4000. A smaller retail store, with less buying power, would pay wholesale $5000 for that same tub, and need to retail it for $7500 to cover their overhead and highly commisioned sales people. So to the commenters that say "you get what you pay for" regarding Costco tubs, I think that is a bit misleading, because I claim a $4500 Costco spa = a $7500 retail tub...

When I look at just the parts, I see $2500 at most to build a tub....barring real fancy waterproof LCD TVs, etc...

[great white]

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc. While I doubt manufacturers will come to this board and divuldge much proprietary information, the Spa industry is big enough, that I'm sure a former manager of a Spa retail store may provide some good insight. Of course, as with any anonymous forum, no guarantees the info posted is factual...I think what the original poster is wondering about and me to, is how much would a $4500 costco tub retail for at a traditional spa store.

I admit I am totally guessing at these numbers, but if you have "inside info" feel free to comment. Costco is going to be much lower markup, and higher volume than a typical Spa retail store. I would GUESS a $4500 Costco tub, Costco is able to buy for $4000. A smaller retail store, with less buying power, would pay wholesale $5000 for that same tub, and need to retail it for $7500 to cover their overhead and highly commisioned sales people. So to the commenters that say "you get what you pay for" regarding Costco tubs, I think that is a bit misleading, because I claim a $4500 Costco spa = a $7500 retail tub...

When I look at just the parts, I see $2500 at most to build a tub....barring real fancy waterproof LCD TVs, etc...

Well, I'll give you the "most Spa builders part", and there's always a cost saving when dealing in larger volumes. But, on the other side of that coin, my HS has alot of features not seen on other marketed models. They were all thought up, developed and produced by HS. "Moto-massage" jets, "soothing seven" jets are a few that come to mind that i didn't see on any other manufacturers tubs. All the others seemed to be the same type or designs. Sure, there appears to be some common jets on the HS that are probably industry sourced, but there are only a few. And I don't doubt some of thier "HS branded" bits in the case are built by contractors.

Tub design is also pretty evident in the " more expensive" models, they all seem much more comfortable and versatile than the less expensive/bulk suppliers tubs that we tested.

I'm not trying to"pimp" HS, but in my experience they do seem to have a fair bit of in house designed and developed features that aren't TV's etc. They were also pretty much the only "high end" dealer in the area except fo the Arctic Spa place...but I'm not so sure they're high end instead of just high price......

On a side note, our HS dealer even tried to steer us away from TV's and sound systems (not that I wanted them) rather than "upsell" us. A nice sign of integrity IMO...

[Roger]

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc. While I doubt manufacturers will come to this board and divuldge much proprietary information, the Spa industry is big enough, that I'm sure a former manager of a Spa retail store may provide some good insight. Of course, as with any anonymous forum, no guarantees the info posted is factual...I think what the original poster is wondering about and me to, is how much would a $4500 costco tub retail for at a traditional spa store.

I admit I am totally guessing at these numbers, but if you have "inside info" feel free to comment. Costco is going to be much lower markup, and higher volume than a typical Spa retail store. I would GUESS a $4500 Costco tub, Costco is able to buy for $4000. A smaller retail store, with less buying power, would pay wholesale $5000 for that same tub, and need to retail it for $7500 to cover their overhead and highly commisioned sales people. So to the commenters that say "you get what you pay for" regarding Costco tubs, I think that is a bit misleading, because I claim a $4500 Costco spa = a $7500 retail tub...

When I look at just the parts, I see $2500 at most to build a tub....barring real fancy waterproof LCD TVs, etc...

I'll take a guess at this also Costco buys it for 3500 (what it's worth) and makes a grand selling it for 4500. Dealer buys it for 4000 because he buys less and sells it for 5500. I think this is closer. Exemplary service from a dealer may get that tub to 6 grand. Now lets take a higher end tub, and I do have a small amount of inside information. D1 charges the dealer 6000 for there tub and the dealer marks it up to 8000 (about the same) but if he can get 10 G's he will try all day!! Margins are higher and that's what drives this great country of ours.

[arf1410]

I'll take a guess at this also Costco buys it for 3500 (what it's worth) and makes a grand selling it for 4500. Dealer buys it for 4000 because he buys less and sells it for 5500. I think this is closer. Exemplary service from a dealer may get that tub to 6 grand. Now lets take a higher end tub, and I do have a small amount of inside information. D1 charges the dealer 6000 for there tub and the dealer marks it up to 8000 (about the same) but if he can get 10 G's he will try all day!! Margins are higher and that's what drives this great country of ours.

I would be SHOCKED if Costco marks up ANY online item 30%+ Though I GUESSED $500 on a Spa, I think $100 is more likely than $1000. Costco works on very small margins. You propose what Costco marks up $1000, a spa dealer would mark only $1500. I think a dealer would have a mark-up 5-10 times greater than costco....

Due to its buying power, I do know for a FACT there are many items that Costco REATAILS for less than a small business's wholesale, which is why Costco is the "wholesale" supplier for many small businesses. To the best of my knowledge, there are no really large, nationwide spa dealers that do anywhere near the volume Costco would do

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc.

Smaller spa makers (like Strong) have little in teh way of true R&D but the major spa makers like Watkins and Sundance/Jacuzzi spend a lot on R&D with multiple Engineers and techs working on projects that may have ben in the works a couple years before they come to market (or may not come to market due to failing R&D) so I'd say post #2 got it right but you may be on track when you take about some spa makers who rely on their suppliers to handle the R&D on new products/technology.

[arf1410]

I disagree with the premise of post #2 as I really doubt most Spa builders do much real "R&D", rather they assemble off the shelf components -ie nozzles, pumps, etc.

Smaller spa makers (like Strong) have little in teh way of true R&D but the major spa makers like Watkins and Sundance/Jacuzzi spend a lot on R&D with multiple Engineers and techs working on projects that may have ben in the works a couple years before they come to market (or may not come to market due to failing R&D) so I'd say post #2 got it right but you may be on track when you take about some spa makers who rely on their suppliers to handle the R&D on new products/technology.

Certainly I agree the few major players are doing more R&D than all the little shops around.

However, Spa don't strike me as high-tech. What major developements have there really been in the last 10-20 years??

[Roger]

I'll take a guess at this also Costco buys it for 3500 (what it's worth) and makes a grand selling it for 4500. Dealer buys it for 4000 because he buys less and sells it for 5500. I think this is closer. Exemplary service from a dealer may get that tub to 6 grand. Now lets take a higher end tub, and I do have a small amount of inside information. D1 charges the dealer 6000 for there tub and the dealer marks it up to 8000 (about the same) but if he can get 10 G's he will try all day!! Margins are higher and that's what drives this great country of ours.

I would be SHOCKED if Costco marks up ANY online item 30%+ Though I GUESSED $500 on a Spa, I think $100 is more likely than $1000. Costco works on very small margins. You propose what Costco marks up $1000, a spa dealer would mark only $1500. I think a dealer would have a mark-up 5-10 times greater than costco....

Due to its buying power, I do know for a FACT there are many items that Costco REATAILS for less than a small business's wholesale, which is why Costco is the "wholesale" supplier for many small businesses. To the best of my knowledge, there are no really large, nationwide spa dealers that do anywhere near the volume Costco would do

I will agree that your speculation is just as valid as mine. But it still remains just that for both of us and of no real use, speculation. No matter what Costco tells it's members they or no one has a true way of knowing the true margins that are achieved.

I would also argue that there are national dealer chains of Calspa and Masterspa that achieve sales higher than Costco. The dealer network may have several independent names working under the same umbrella corp. I would also add Thermospa to that list.

[hrustar]

There are a billion variables to answering the question what is the mark up. It depends on the company. A small company will have less margins because their costs to produce will be higher. A larger company will have higher margins because their production costs are less. It's all economies of scale.

Add to this marketing costs, shipping costs, service/warranty costs, r&d costs (all of which vary by brand) and you'll find the question gets even harder to answer.

Then there is the retailer cut/kick backs to deal with. Not to mention the retailer costs of rent/employee count/inventory overhead. It's a nightmare.

There's money to be made, but the amount will change for each and every brand/retailer.

My guess is that the profit margin is less than many people think, but enough to be profitable if you can sustain a market following.

[arf1410]

Agreed that I can do no more than SPECULATE on pricing/costing, so I will encourage some follow up on one of the other issues I had brought up, R&D spending by the Spa manufacturers. What are some examples of major developments or improvements in a new spa v. one 10-20 years old? Main differences I see (as an admitted TOTAL NEWBEE) are more jets. Do Jacuzzi and some of the other major brands really hold many patents?

[hrustar]

Agreed that I can do no more than SPECULATE on pricing/costing, so I will encourage some follow up on one of the other issues I had brought up, R&D spending by the Spa manufacturers. What are some examples of major developments or improvements in a new spa v. one 10-20 years old? Main differences I see (as an admitted TOTAL NEWBEE) are more jets. Do Jacuzzi and some of the other major brands really hold many patents?

New spa owner here, but I believe the use of ozone is new (by your criteria), also dual switch pumps and the use of circulation pumps. Full foam insulation may be new as well. LED lighting is certainly new.

Are these break through? For the most part, not really. Ozone seems big, but the others are pretty obvious. And still others are thanks to the pump makes R&D, not the spa maker.

Sure, spas are re-engineered often, but they are not really breaking the mold so to say.

[arf1410]

Agreed that I can do no more than SPECULATE on pricing/costing, so I will encourage some follow up on one of the other issues I had brought up, R&D spending by the Spa manufacturers. What are some examples of major developments or improvements in a new spa v. one 10-20 years old? Main differences I see (as an admitted TOTAL NEWBEE) are more jets. Do Jacuzzi and some of the other major brands really hold many patents?

New spa owner here, but I believe the use of ozone is new (by your criteria), also dual switch pumps and the use of circulation pumps. Full foam insulation may be new as well. LED lighting is certainly new.

Are these break through? For the most part, not really. Ozone seems big, but the others are pretty obvious. And still others are thanks to the pump makes R&D, not the spa maker.

Sure, spas are re-engineered often, but they are not really breaking the mold so to say.

I have just determined ozone has been used purify pools and spas since 1980...so (1) it doesn't qualify as recent, and (2) I don't know for certain it was even developed by the pool or spa industry...so cross ozone off the list as possible recent SPA industry R&D ...

Things like adding LED lighting is a design change, but unless for example they spent time and $$ to develop, say, underwater LEDs, you couldn't give them much credit for that either. My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Arf,

I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less.

I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking.

[DK117]

My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Arf,

I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less.

I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking.

Spatech,

I have no doubt your assessment of the OP is accurate. I would however like an answer to the OP's question. We've had two opinions posted. One that Costco has a $1000 markup and a dealer would be $2000 markup. The second was Costco has $500 markup and dealers have $2500. While I would love to see the facts, I don't think we'll get them. But certainly there seems to be consensus that a tub, any identical tub, would sell for between $1000 to $2000 cheaper at Costco through economies of scale vs a dealer ... albeit without the local support.

Full disclosure, I'm a CXSi80 owner still in the honeymoon period. I can see you rolling your eyes already, but this markup does drive purchase decisions. I'm not suggesting the CXSi80 is superior to anything (or even on par with anything.) I'm suggesting the CXSi80 didn't carry dealer markup of a grand or more.

DK117

[hottubdan]

My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Arf,

I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less.

I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking.

Spatech,

I have no doubt your assessment of the OP is accurate. I would however like a question to the OP's answer. We've had two opinions posted. One that Costco has a $1000 markup and a dealer would be $2000 markup. The second was Costco has $500 markup and dealers have $2500. While I would love to see the facts, I don't think we'll them. But certainly there seems to be consensus that a tub, any identical tub, would sell for between $1000 to $2000 cheaper at Costco through economies of scale vs a dealer ... albeit without the local support.

Full disclosure, I'm a CXSi80 owner still in the honeymoon period. I can see you rolling your eyes already, but this markup does drive purchase decisions. I'm not suggesting the CXSi80 is superior to anything (or even on par with anything.) I'm suggesting the CXSi80 didn't carry dealer markup of a grand or more.

DK117

It doesn't matter what the category is. Costco makes their nut on Memberships. Then they make small margins on their products. Fact is they have a horrible history in the spa category.

[arf1410]

My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Arf,

I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less.

I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking.

Actually, I am looking for some FACTS to convince me otherwise. Give me some specific examples of R&D expenditures, give me specific examples of lower quality components. Most of what my novice eyes have seen is that higher cost buys features and accessories.

Costco drives prices. The previous Costco spa dealers very likely went out of business because the sold their spas with too little markup. If I buy a $4500 Strong Spa at Costco, and Strong goes out of business 2 weeks later becuase those $4500 tubs cost them $4600 to manufacture, I really don't care, as long as they are using "industry standard" components, so I can get parts in 6 years...I dont want to pay $7500 just so Strong stays strong and profitable...

[hottubdan]

My point being that it doesn't cost Jacuzzi (or any other major brand) much more to build a spa with X features than no-name brand ABC to manufacture a spa with the same X features.

Arf,

I can see from your posts lately that you're about to buy the Strong so I know why you're trying to convince yourself and/or us of this. The cost difference to build and support (R&D through Warranty and much in between) a high quality premium spa like Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, Sundance ... is noticeably more than a mid or lower end spa maker though a lot of the difference is also in the quality of the end product which can be difficult to put a price tag on but is a huge factor. Also factor in the chance which is apt to be chugging along after 12, 15, 18 year and you'll see a big difference. Spas can make for expensive planters. You've pretty much decided to buy from Costco and you're preemptively defending the purchase wanting to believe you're buying the same thing for less.

I can understand those that want to say the jury is out on Strong so and the evidence isn't there to assume Strong will follow the Costco predecessors like Infinity, Tatum, Keys, Hydro... but you're reaching in your hope here because part of the reason the past companies went the way of the dinosaur is the way they had to cut corners to bring down the cost down to sell through Costco in the first place so there is reason for us to be skeptical, we've heard this story before (wish I had a dollar for every person who said Infinity would be different than its predecessors). Many of us who've been around have seen plenty of these "lower price, industry parts" spas that sell for less and to think it costs the same to build them as a premium spa is just wishful thinking.

Actually, I am looking for some FACTS to convince me otherwise. Give me some specific examples of R&D expenditures, give me specific examples of lower quality components. Most of what my novice eyes have seen is that higher cost buys features and accessories.

Costco drives prices. The previous Costco spa dealers very likely went out of business because the sold their spas with too little markup. If I buy a $4500 Strong Spa at Costco, and Strong goes out of business 2 weeks later becuase those $4500 tubs cost them $4600 to manufacture, I really don't care, as long as they are using "industry standard" components, so I can get parts in 6 years...I dont want to pay $7500 just so Strong stays strong and profitable...

Denser foam, vs 1# foam. Foam filled vs. an inch or so of foam. Saves you money. Costs hundreds.

5 year warranty vs. 1 or 2 year. Potentially saves you money. Costs hundreds.

Local dealer support. Priceless.

[arf1410]

I look at foam filled as a big negative - the minor possible energy savings is far out weighed by the tremendous added difficulty in access for repair. One recent post in this forum mentioned $1100 minimum to repair a leak in a foam filled tub. Also, I didn't think there was a correlation between foam and price - some manufacturers do, some don't, and others give you the choice. A local (Seattle area) dealer, not Costco, recommended to me against that option. Certainly a longer warranty has value, however only if the store or manufacturer is there to support it. I have more confidence Costco will be around in 5 years than the corner Spa dealer. Spa dealers generally provide free delivery and setup, which is worth a couple hundred dollars. The Spa dealers I have spoken with did not mention any other free support, that they would offer unlike Costco. I would think their sales pitch would have mentioned it, if they provided it.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Actually, I am looking for some FACTS to convince me otherwise. Give me some specific examples of R&D expenditures, give me specific examples of lower quality components. Most of what my novice eyes have seen is that higher cost buys features and accessories.

The previous Costco spa dealers very likely went out of business because the sold their spas with too little markup.

The fact is the Strong spa is cheaper and is backed by Costco and those are the real reasons you are going that route which is fine if that works for you until u throw in all the other BS you're spouting.

The previous Costco spa dealers very likely went out of business because the sold their spas with too little markup.

That was PART of it, the other part was cutting corners/overall poor quality. When it happens once it's an incident. When it happens twice is a repeat. When the same thing happens a 3rd and 4th time then it's a pattern. You can justify a Strong purchase any way you want but I'll wait before I assume they'll be any different than Keys, Hydro, Tatum or Infinity (who have I left out?).

I look at foam filled as a big negative

You obvioulsy know what you want to do so just go buy the Costco spa.

[arf1410]

"Keys, Hydro, Tatum or Infinity (who have I left out?)."

Just because they went out of business,doesn't necessarily mean they were bad tubs. IF the tubs were bad, and no longer warranty support, then Costco does indeed give full refunds as reported on this forum.

As far as the foam, it was a local spa dealer, who carried a line of tubs that offered foam as an option, who talked me out of it...not Costco/Strong....

[Roger]

I look at foam filled as a big negative

You obvioulsy know what you want to do so just go buy the Costco spa.

I would see full foam as a negetive on a low end spa also. Seems there construction is condusive to leaks.

I'll opt out of this thread. But I have never seen an owner of a low end discount store tub last around here for more than a couple years. That to me says alot. On the other hand high end tub owners stick around because they have questions years down the road for repair after warranty.

But you could return your tub to Costco in 5 years, or could you? Never seen that happen or be reported here.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

"Keys, Hydro, Tatum or Infinity (who have I left out?)."

Just because they went out of business,doesn't necessarily mean they were bad tubs. IF the tubs were bad, and no longer warranty support, then Costco does indeed give full refunds as reported on this forum.

They were not quality spas; that was the bigger part of the problem. What happened was after a while Costco would start getting them back due to quality issues and then debiting what they owed the manufactures when they returned them. That's when the cash flow problems started and it was all down hill from there. There even was an Infinity person who came on here who admitted the end was when Costco didn't pay them and it was because the quality bill came due. Old story repeated numerous times, we'll see on Strong.

As far as the foam, it was a local spa dealer, who carried a line of tubs that offered foam as an option, who talked me out of it...not Costco/Strong....

Dealers/manufacturers who offer foam as an option are non-foam spa makers plain and simple, it really a ruse. They're trying to make it sound like they are unbiased and will do it either way but thats a joke. In an attempt for more sales and to combat selling against well insulated foam filled spas they use the Marketing ploy of "We can foam that for you too if you want but you really don't want to". What would you expect them to say? The reputable non-full foam makers like Arctic and Maxx have the sense to stick with the way they know how to do it. The ones who go both ways are a sham IMO; pick a method and perfect it.

[great white]

I look at foam filled as a big negative

Having "somewhat" of an engineering background, I'll give you some of the "pros and cons" of this building method.

Pros:

1. Vibration dampening. Anything that is required to make a seal, benefits from reduced vibration. The hoses and fittings will vibrate from the pumps and the movement of water through them. Foaming them in place damps this vibration and results in a seal that lasts longer.

2. Insulation. Do we really have to discuss the benfits of closed cell spray foam insulation and the amounts of it? Let's just leave it as it a superior insulation method.

3. Sound damping. A fully foamed tub is going to be quieter. A "non-foamed" tub is going to resonate with the vibration induced by the pumps and the movement of the water through the plumbing. you can change the frequency at which the tub resonates by varying the thickness of the acrylic and or backer material, but you can't eliminate it. The shell is also going to act as a "speaker" of sorts for any sound inside the case, again, pumps/water movement/etc. It's just the way it is. Whether or not this (or the amount of it) bothers the buyer is a personal choice. I find it does effect your enjoyment and the "impression" of quality after you've compared them side by side.

4. Structural integrity. Spray foamed "to the gills" means every square inch of the shell structure is supported. The water/bather load is spread thoughout the structure and supported by the entire base instead of by a wood structure at a few points or the tub edges alone. yeah, so what? What does this mean? It means less shell deflection and/or movement means less chance of broken seals or cracking tubs. Some may point out that household tubs and large "in house" jacuzzi tubs are supported by the tub edges, but they also don't have to deal with 2-3 tons of water load.....

5. Base loading (for lack of a better term). This refers to the loading on the structure below the tub. Not so important if mounting the tub on a concrete pad, but for deck installs it can make a difference. Sure, the total weight is going to be the same that the deck supports, but an edge loaded (on the skirt) tub is going to have areas of concentrated load as opposed to th spread out toal load of a fully foamed tub. Think of it this way; an edge loaded tub has a better chance of deflecting deck boarding between the joists of a properly engineered deck than a tub that loads the entire undertub surface. This could result in a slightly deflected tub shell, which can cause leaks around the seals...

Cons:

1. Serviceability. If you do develop a leak, well, we all know how much of a PITA that could be. Accessablity is definately a plus.

2. Upgrading. If you ever wanted to add pop up speaker or some other such item, running wiring and components is going to be a real pain....

3. rodents. They sure do love to burrow into things like foam in the winter. Anything to keep themselves warm. Sure, they could destroy the insulation in a non foamed tub too, but it's much easier to repair. Even more so if a mouse burrows into the foam and hit a hose or electrical wire....

4. Another is......ummm....well.....realistically, other than fixing a leak that a fully foamed tub might have prevented due to the above pros, I can't really think of another............and I'm really trying to think of another to balance the sides here.......

There's absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing one of the less expensive brands on the market today (IE:Costco). I considered several before I bought my Hot Springs.

The buyer just has to be happy with what they get and accept whatever compromises the manufacturer has made to meet that price point......

[arf1410]

I look at foam filled as a big negative

There's absolutely nothing wrong with purchasing one of the less expensive brands on the market today (IE:Costco). I considered several before I bought my Hot Springs.

The buyer just has to be happy with what they get and accept whatever compromises the manufacturer has made to meet that price point......

That is the question I am trying (un-successfully) to get answered. Very Specifically, what does a $7500 tub have the the Strong /Costco has compromised?