h20proof Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 I've been doing a lot of research online and at the dealerships as we get closer to buying our first new hot tub. Without actually sitting in a running hot tub and without a trustworthy source of information, there's only so much I can do. I've found that a lot of the reviews and articles online seem like they're paid endorsements and the information varies greatly from site to site. I thought this forum of actual hot tub owners could be my best tool so here we go: 1) Is there a Consumer Report type of buyer's guide for hot tubs that provides information on reliability and whatnot? Or how else would someone be able to determine what is advertising hype/salesman pitch and what is actual quality? 2) Most dealers do not post pricing online and even when you go into the showroom some might tell you an MSRP but then I get the feeling there are negotiations to be had kind of like at a new car dealership. Some of the pricing I received varies a lot from dealer to dealer and then when I compare that to some pricing that I can on find online like Costco and Home Depot those prices are way lower. We're talking about a swing from $7,000 all the way up to $17,000 for similar hot tubs (as far as specs) 3 pump, 7 to 8 ft, 6 to 7 person, 40 to 70 jets. I realize that the Big Box store hot tub is likely not going to have as many premium features and will likely have lower reliability but when you can buy two hot tubs for the price of one it makes you wonder how high the dealers are marking up their product. And more importantly if I do want to go for the 17,000 hot tub how much wiggle room can I expect? 3) What would you consider a "good" deal for a low end 7 person hot tub? How about a mid tier? And then a premium? What did you pay? I just want to have a little "real life" feedback from owners as I begin negotiations. Thank you in advance for any tips! Cheers, Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cusser Posted February 28 Report Share Posted February 28 My own spa is 35 years old so way before fancy electronic controls and electronic stuff. But from what I read, stay away from bells and whistles like built-in stereos and TVs, way more proprietary stuff to go wrong. My spa is on the back patio under the patio roof. I use a stereo inside the house for which I have two outside speakers. We also have a 37" HDTV on a swivel mount from the roof which can be turned towards the spa and controlled by its remote control as it has to be at a distance for safety. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castletonia Posted February 29 Report Share Posted February 29 Full disclosure, I am a dealer. I sell Sundance Spas, but in the last 10 years prior to opening my own store I sold Hot Spring, Caldera, Marquis and then a bunch of lesser known brands prior (been in the industry 23 years now). There is no online "consumer reports" type place for hot tubs. Anything you find is going to be a paid for review site. In my opinion, the following are brands I consider quality and this is in alphabetical order to be fair: Artesian, Bullfrog, Caldera, Dimension One, Hot Spring, Jacuzzi, Marquis, and Sundance. There are plenty other brands that are of decent/pretty good quality, and many others that are of lower quality. I would start your search by visiting the dealer locator on each of the above brands and see if you have local representation. If you don't have a local dealer, then the brand is not an option. I would personally avoid online, big box stores, Costco, etc if you want quality and support after the sale. There is a reason a dealer will be more expensive, and it is because they likely offer a better quality product and are there for you after the sale. Pricing is a crapshoot. Some dealers negotiate, some don't. Some inflate their prices to offer big discounts, others don't. And each dealer has different fixed costs which will influence what they sell the hot tub for. Plus the local market will also influence that price. As an example, I am in Wisconsin. My market is way different than someone who is in say Boston or San Francisco, so our prices will likely be different. Same goes for dealer markup. The internet and box stores will absolutely have lower profit margins because they are nothing more than order takers. And when you don't have to worry about any potential expenses after the sale, you can make lower margins and still put food on your table. Any research you do, disregard pricing you find that was pre-Covid, everything has gone up 10%-20%. I have knowledge of current pricing on Sundance, Hot Spring, Caldera, Marquis, and Jacuzzi. If you encounter those brands, I can at least let you know if the price you are being quoted is in the ballpark. Low end 6-person hot tub, I would say $10k - $13k. Mid-tier probably $14k - $17k and high end $20k. I don't count online, big box stuff in the above estimates. You also need to determine how many people you really want the hot tub to fit. A 7' hot tub can claim it fits 7 people and so can a 8' hot tub. The larger one will do so comfortably and the smaller one not so much. A 7' sized hot tub will probably save you $1k - $2k over the larger 8' model. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gebo Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 One thing I read on the internet is that 70% of first time buyers get a recliner and 70% of second time buyers don’t get a tub with a recliner. Food for thought. Also, please go sit in them before you purchase. You and anyone else that will be using it. Different brands will fit your body differently. My wife and I were settled on one of the brands mentioned above. We just sat in it dry and it was too upright for us. I spent way too much time looking for quality FIRST. But if it’s uncomfortable, what good is quality? I wish I’d have sat in all of those mentioned above first and then evaluated the quality and dealer second. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h20proof Posted March 1 Author Report Share Posted March 1 Very helpful, thank you! When you say "local" is 50 miles too far away? I'm pretty remote. There are a couple local dealers within 10 miles but they don't finance and seem to be very small and inexperienced because they sell other stuff too, not just hot tubs. I really like the features and specs on Artic. Any feedback? They felt quality to me. But price was really high for a 7 person (about $20k)...until they just dropped it $5k without blinking an eye. Makes me wonder if it's overpriced and I should've asked for $7k off. I like when the price is just the price. 😉 I live in snow country, so i'm wondering if the fiberglass forever floor is better than standard wood floor and if there's really any additional insulation in Artic than others. ?? Any idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranbiz Posted March 1 Report Share Posted March 1 I evaluated countless tubs when I was looking for a tub. Now, I had a size limitation due to the location it was going into so I could not buy a "standard" size 96"x96" tub. This did limit the brands that I hat to buy from. My tub says it will seat 6. It also has a recliner seat. It does seat 6 if all of you are very friendly and you use the cool down seat. It will sit 4 with everyone being a bit less friendly and 3 are really comfortable. My first tub was a non recliner seat tub. Due to age and the infirmities that come with age, we did opt for the recliner seat. To get one that we didn't think we would float out of required further testing and eliminated several tubs. I ended up with an Artesian Island series rectangular tub that met the physical size requirements and delivered the best bang for the buck, from a dealer that had quality reviews for both sales and service. Because I bought during covid, we were unable to wet test anything but dry testing did provide at least comfort assessments. I found that if the lounge was inclined more severely it was uncomfortable and I felt there was a greater possibility of floating out. A more upright lounge seat was more comfortable for us and we do stay put in the lounger when using the tub. This won't work for all though (different body types perform differently) and that's why you really need to wet test a lounger tub. In reality, you need to visit multiple dealers and sit in a lot of tubs. Narrow your search down based on the dry seating and arrange a wet test. The dealer is as important as the tub. The dealer is your warranty source and you want one that is responsive and preferably has in house service techs. Ask for referrals from the dealer and follow up with them. If your dealer's service area fits with where you live, distance would not concern me. My dealer is about 125 miles away but they service my area. @castletonia and @Gebo have given you good advice. Hopefully, I have as well. Another brand that seems to be up and coming in the US is Wellis. They are a European manufacturer that has established US dealers and stock. I would take a look at those and use the same criteria as you should for the list that Castletonia gave you. Good luck and report back with what you decide on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSpaTech Posted March 2 Report Share Posted March 2 On 2/28/2024 at 12:40 AM, h20proof said: 1) Is there a Consumer Report type of buyer's guide for hot tubs Not unbiased On 2/28/2024 at 12:40 AM, h20proof said: 2) Most dealers do not post pricing online and even when you go into the showroom some might tell you an MSRP but then I get the feeling there are negotiations to be had kind of like at a new car dealership. Commission sales teams. Their job is to get as much money out of you as they can. The more they get the more they make. 2 customers can buy tubs 20 mins apart and one might pay 2K more because they didn't have a negotiation plan before going in. Of you are buying in this environment I tell folks to never sign on the first day in. They will try and find your price breaking point and hold there when they think you will buy that day. Walk away. Leave your contact info and a good sales person will contact you in a day or 2 with a better price and or package asking how they can earn your business. Go home think about it. If it still feels right the next day and you have done your homework you will feel much better about the purchase going forward. In larger stores the day you meet the sale person and they are your best friend is likely the last time you ever deal with them. From that day or you are likely dealing with Customer Service or a 3rd party service provider. Set a budget and stay within it regardless of how good of a "deal" it is. Know all your "other" costs... Electrical, Base pad... before you set budget and shop. Most dealers will include the delivery, step, cover lifter and start up chemicals. All things you will need and cost money. They will try to play this into the sales pitch with over inflated prices to make you feel you are getting a better deal. "Today Only"... "Scratch and dent" "last one" are all pressure sales tactics. If they offer you a deal today it will be there tomorrow. Research the Dealer as much as you do Price, Manufacturer and model of spa. Do they have in house service or do they use a 3rd party service provider. Research the Manufacturer. Sometimes you have to dig deep to get the real story. Warranty.. Know what the warranty is and covers and for how long. Most Warranties are pro rated and by the second year you are paying 50% of parts and labour. Some components might only be covered for the first year. Lights, stereos, ozone... Most manufacturers will cover the dealer for parts and time on site based on a preset amount but manufacturers don't cover travel time to and from your location so most dealers will charge a "Trip Fee" that can run as high as $200+ per visit. Make sure you know before you buy because they likely won't tell you unless you ask. Where are you located? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h20proof Posted March 2 Author Report Share Posted March 2 North Idaho. Thank you. I'm leaning towards the Sundance. I like that they have a circulation pump. I did get a little bit of a feeling that artic was like a car dealership with all the sales tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h20proof Posted March 2 Author Report Share Posted March 2 Just went and sat in a Cal-Spa Cancun. Pretty nice. Hard to believe 3 six HP pumps though??? When most are using 2 to 4 HP. Good price, about $13,500 for 7 person. But we really liked Bullfrog. Huge 500 gal, 8 person, but loved the jet pack function and the simplicity of the engineering. Anyone have any feedback on them? A little pricey at $17k but super nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castletonia Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 3 hours ago, h20proof said: Just went and sat in a Cal-Spa Cancun. Pretty nice. Hard to believe 3 six HP pumps though??? When most are using 2 to 4 HP. Good price, about $13,500 for 7 person. But we really liked Bullfrog. Huge 500 gal, 8 person, but loved the jet pack function and the simplicity of the engineering. Anyone have any feedback on them? A little pricey at $17k but super nice. Run away from Cal Spa. Probably the worst company I ever dealt with in 20+ years. Cal Spas makes a mediocre product, but does not honor their warranty. This results in the dealer either covering the cost themselves, or passing it along to the customer. There is a reason there are few, if any long-term Cal Spa dealers. Bullfrog in my opinion makes a quality product, and yes, on the pricey side. I cannot put my finger on it, but there is something about the company that rubs me the wrong way. I am more of a traditionally engineered product kind of guy. Give me a Sundance, Hot Spring, Caldera, Jacuzzi all day long. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h20proof Posted March 3 Author Report Share Posted March 3 Thanks, I kind of had a bad feeling about the Cal Spa. Too much packed into a low price and the seats didn't feel comfy. The Bullfrog just makes good sense. Less tubing, less holes cut for jets, more interior space due to the filter being under the seat. They use Gecko, which although it's not Balboa at least it's a common manufacturer. You can get without or with ($300) a circulation pump. Good 10/7/5 warranty too. The Sundance would save me some money ($13k vs $17k), but I really like the idea of being able to pick my own jet configuration with the Bullfrog. Hmmmm....🤔🤔🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSpaTech Posted March 3 Report Share Posted March 3 13 hours ago, h20proof said: Hard to believe 3 six HP pumps though Lots of fudge going on with pump hp ratings To know the "true" HP ratings you need to know the AMP draw in high speed... 2hp 8 amp, 3hp 10 amp, 4 HP 12 amp, 5 HP 16 Amp. Honestly I have had over 100 + tubs go through my backyard over the years and tried them all but never a Bullfrog.. odd. Have worked on a bunch but never tried one. To me the "jet pack" seating looks very upright and rigid almost like sitting back against a sheet of plywood but others might have more input on that. Also the space behind the jet pack looks like a good place for nasties to build up unseen. Not sure if they fixed the issue with the jet pack clips breaking yet or not. JMO Wiring for the tub is routed through channels molded into the bottom base pan so plan ahead. Of the manufacturers you have mentioned the Sundance would be my choice but that would be dependent on the dealer reputation and service fees. FYI Sundance is Jacuzzi. Same factory. Repair costs post warranty will be slightly higher than most as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h20proof Posted March 4 Author Report Share Posted March 4 Bullfrog dealer has hundreds of reviews averaging 4.9. After speaking with them, they have been in business a long time and are very knowledgeable. I have a good feeling about them and the A8. If for some reason it doesn't work out, my second choice is the Sundance Chelsee. No knock on Sundance at all, I'm just a fan of the ABS frame (no wood), the minimal plumbing/shell holes, and the Jetpacks with Bullfrog. We probably won't ever move the jetpacks, but just being able to choose our own configuration/ jets is a game changer. Water test this weekend. I'll report back. Let me know if there's anything I'm not considering and I'll ask while I'm there. Thanks everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castletonia Posted March 5 Report Share Posted March 5 15 hours ago, h20proof said: Bullfrog dealer has hundreds of reviews averaging 4.9. After speaking with them, they have been in business a long time and are very knowledgeable. I have a good feeling about them and the A8. If for some reason it doesn't work out, my second choice is the Sundance Chelsee. No knock on Sundance at all, I'm just a fan of the ABS frame (no wood), the minimal plumbing/shell holes, and the Jetpacks with Bullfrog. We probably won't ever move the jetpacks, but just being able to choose our own configuration/ jets is a game changer. Water test this weekend. I'll report back. Let me know if there's anything I'm not considering and I'll ask while I'm there. Thanks everyone! If you go Bullfrog, definitely get with the circulation pump, I'm pretty sure it's no longer standard, and an option on all models. Even though you think you will never move jet packs around, try doing it while you wet test and observe if the jet pressure changes when you move around the jet packs. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the way Bullfrog is designed, the plumbing feeds the jet packs in a sequence, so the jet pack closest to the pump has more available power than the jet pack furthest away from the pump. Each jet pack is going to have different water volume demands, so in theory, you may get too little jet pressure out of the last jet pack or too much if you choose jet packs that require more/less water. If everything goes well in the wet test, then I would say you have done your due diligence, are buying a reputable brand from what sounds like a good dealer. If you are not fully satisfied, and based strictly on the price of the Bullfrog, I would also seek out a Sundance Optima if the Chelsee is lacking in any way for you. Not that I really care what the frame is made out of since it is one of my lowest priorities when evaluating hot tubs, the new 2024 Optima will have a steel frame vs the Chelsee still using pressure treated wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h20proof Posted March 5 Author Report Share Posted March 5 Great point castletonia, I'll try that. I've been going back and forth on the idea of a circulation pump. I like the idea that it's quieter, cheaper to replace and keeps water moving 24/7 but after doing more research some are saying that if you have an ozonator you may not want the circulation pump to run 24/7 because after it destroys all the bad stuff it will then go after the free chlorine. I was reading that a jet pump running for 2 hours twice a day (plus the times when it's heating) is more than enough if you have an ozonator. I'm going to upgrade to the EOS enhanced ozonator that is supposedly 2x more powerful and eliminates any residual o3 gas. Your thoughts on the circ pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cranbiz Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 With good insulation and a good cover, the circulation pump doesn't run all that much once the tub is up to temperature. I wouldn't be worried about this at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castletonia Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 On 3/5/2024 at 11:28 AM, h20proof said: Great point castletonia, I'll try that. I've been going back and forth on the idea of a circulation pump. I like the idea that it's quieter, cheaper to replace and keeps water moving 24/7 but after doing more research some are saying that if you have an ozonator you may not want the circulation pump to run 24/7 because after it destroys all the bad stuff it will then go after the free chlorine. I was reading that a jet pump running for 2 hours twice a day (plus the times when it's heating) is more than enough if you have an ozonator. I'm going to upgrade to the EOS enhanced ozonator that is supposedly 2x more powerful and eliminates any residual o3 gas. Your thoughts on the circ pump? I am 1,000,000% in favor of a circulation pump. I am also of the opinion that if you don't have a circulation pump, there is no point of an ozone. Ozone only last for about 30 seconds in the water once it is made. If you don't have a circulation pump, then the ozone is only running for a couple hours a day (during filtration), probably 4-6 hours a day. Why pay extra for something that is doing nothing for 75% of the time? And unrelated to ozone, I feel that 24/7 filtration yields cleaner water than water that can sit idol for a majority of the time. And the circulation pump uses less electricity than a full sized jet pump. Plus, then the jet pumps only run when you want them to, resulting in longer life of the jet pumps, especially pump #1. And if yo don't have a circulation pump, I'm pretty sure with every Balboa system, jet pump #1 will briefly cycle on every 30 minutes (only for a few seconds) to cycle water through the heater so that the temperature reading is current. This is my opinion, but I'll go as far to say, I wouldn't own a hot tub without a circulation pump and I even eliminated any hot tub from consideration of being sold in my store if it didn't have a circulation pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSpaTech Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 On 3/2/2024 at 10:19 PM, h20proof said: You can get without or with ($300) a circulation pump. I am pro circ pump however if a dealer is adding $$ into the price as an "Upgrade" then I have questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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