Is Full Foam Maint. A Problem

[mendon31]

I'm doing a lot of research for my purchase. Thermospa and Coleman claim that my maintance and repair bills will be higher with a full foam insulation. I live in Michigan, gets freezing cold often. I have read that the difference in energy conservation is minimal. Is the other type of layered insulation any less on the repair bill. Is it in fact any less on the electric bill than the full foam? Is the other type of insulation recommended for my area? Or would I be asking for trouble? I have a hard time believing that a dealer could sell these models in my area if they weren't ok. for freezing weather. And...... does anyone have an experienced opinion on the thermospa maintanance and repair service? Thanks, for any and all help.

[jpb35]

I agree that the full foam will increase your repair bill if something goes wrong because the repair person will have to get rid of all the foam in order to repair it and that takes a long time. The full foam probably doesnt save you a whole lot in energy costs but it will cost you if your tub needs repair.

One more thing about fully foamed spas. They are filled with .5 pound poly eurathane foam. The .5 pound foam not only doesnt do a very good job of insulating compared to the 2 pound foam that others use it also absorbs water like a spounge. When you get a leak it will absorb lots of water and will start to stink if you dont get it taken care of.

Id put my money on a properly insulated spa. You can get ones that use two pound foam over all the shell and the pipes then use a heat barrier to keep the inside of the cabinet warm. People will disagree that this is the best method but over time it will save you money and your spa will not stink if it ever gets a leak.

The key is to just buy a good Spa, if you buy a good one it probably wont leak and you shouldnt ever need to have it repaired as long as you take care of it.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I'm doing a lot of research for my purchase. Thermospa and Coleman claim that my maintance and repair bills will be higher with a full foam insulation. I live in Michigan, gets freezing cold often. I have read that the difference in energy conservation is minimal. Is the other type of layered insulation any less on the repair bill. Is it in fact any less on the electric bill than the full foam? Is the other type of insulation recommended for my area? Or would I be asking for trouble? I have a hard time believing that a dealer could sell these models in my area if they weren't ok. for freezing weather. And...... does anyone have an experienced opinion on the thermospa maintanance and repair service? Thanks, for any and all help.

The original idea for full foam was a cheap way to hold up a shell. It has become and advertising thing (propoganda) from spa companies because it saves a lot of money and increases the profits.

The problem in cold climates is not only the cost to dig out all that foam when it leaks (I didn't say "if") but it causes the equipment to freeze fast when there is an electrical problem that stops the spa from operation.

The independent testing by three outside companies and two universities all point to the thermal warm air barrier idea as the best.

Full foam spas tend to have freeze damage because there is no "down time" when the power is cut to the equipment. The GFCI trips and you have $1000 to $2000 in damages overnight.

The best insulation method is call Thermally Closed. It is not used on many spas, because it is expensive to produce.

[Spa-Guy]

All of the these manufacturers use Full Foam. Hot Springs, Artesian, Sundance, Marquis,Jacuzzi, Caldera,Dimension One, Saratoga, LA Spas. Hmmmm. How do they compare to these companies, which do not full foam their spas. GulfCoast, Master, Thermo Spas, Hydro Spas, Leisure Bay, Gatsby, PDC, Costco and most of the internet and ebay sellers. If you live in a cold climate, do yourself a favor, call local spa service techs, ask them what type of insulated spa will last longer when the spa is dead on arrival. Ask him which one would have frozen pipes in 8 hours and which one could last 3 days. Ask him which type of insulated spa has more leaks. The type that has insulation supporting the plumbing or the type with dangling plumbing lines, with little or no insualtion supporting them. Ask him which type of insulated spa has a 5 Year Plumbing warranty and which type does not. TP or Tapped Air Insulated Spas are priced lower than Fully Insulated Spas, maybe there is a reason for it.

[kcspaguy]

All I can add is that indeed it is a pain in the butt to strip all the foam to find a leak and if you think you found the leak and refill the spa without stripping it all out, you are likely to get an unwelcome surprise when you find there are other leaks that weren't apparent because they were still foamed over when you had the tub up on it's side empty.

[Roger]

All I can add is that indeed it is a pain in the butt to strip all the foam to find a leak and if you think you found the leak and refill the spa without stripping it all out, you are likely to get an unwelcome surprise when you find there are other leaks that weren't apparent because they were still foamed over when you had the tub up on it's side empty.

Most repair guys I know don't turn the spa on its side to fix 98 percent of the leaks which are in the equipment area.

Don't let dealer scare tactics and insulation method be your determining factor in your spa purchase. Comfort with the dealer and the tub on your backside.

[spa Dr.]

The original idea for full foam was a cheap way to hold up a shell. It has become and advertising thing (propoganda) from spa companies because it saves a lot of money and increases the profits.

The problem in cold climates is not only the cost to dig out all that foam when it leaks (I didn't say "if") but it causes the equipment to freeze fast when there is an electrical problem that stops the spa from operation.

The independent testing by three outside companies and two universities all point to the thermal warm air barrier idea as the best.

Full foam spas tend to have freeze damage because there is no "down time" when the power is cut to the equipment. The GFCI trips and you have $1000 to $2000 in damages overnight.

holycrap, who brain washed you. it probably didn't take long

[Jim_The_Jim]

All of the these manufacturers use Full Foam. Hot Springs, Artesian, Sundance, Marquis,Jacuzzi, Caldera,Dimension One, Saratoga, LA Spas. Hmmmm. How do they compare to these companies, which do not full foam their spas. GulfCoast, Master, Thermo Spas, Hydro Spas, Leisure Bay, Gatsby, PDC, Costco and most of the internet and ebay sellers. If you live in a cold climate, do yourself a favor, call local spa service techs, ask them what type of insulated spa will last longer when the spa is dead on arrival. Ask him which one would have frozen pipes in 8 hours and which one could last 3 days. Ask him which type of insulated spa has more leaks. The type that has insulation supporting the plumbing or the type with dangling plumbing lines, with little or no insualtion supporting them. Ask him which type of insulated spa has a 5 Year Plumbing warranty and which type does not. TP or Tapped Air Insulated Spas are priced lower than Fully Insulated Spas, maybe there is a reason for it.

Actually it costs about 300% more to do a proper thermally closed insulation, than to have one guy with a foam gun, fill the bottom with foam.

If you use a layered technique you spend a lot more time and different materials are involved. We use foam on the shell. (It is a special porous foam that is not for insulation, but for sound and to hold the tubing in place.) The spa requires a structured cabinet because we don't use foam to hold up the wall of the shell. There are thermal foil boards applied to the frames of the cabinet, on the bottom and on the sides. The upper lip of the shell if foamed in to seal it, then the outside of the cabinet is sealed with either a thermal foil for cold climates, or with a sheet of 4 to 6 mil plastic to insure that the air currents in the cabinet are properly directed and the cabinet is really sealed against cold air infusion. The bottom of the spa is sealed with an ABS sheet of plastic. Then all areas where air is allowed to enter must have a rodent and a bug screen over the air vents. It takes hours to do this sort of work, but it it worth it. With this method you also "kill two birds with one stone". The fact that the spa is air tight, also insures that no bugs or rodents can get inside, not even in the equipment area.

There are other spas that are called thermo pane or thermal pane, but are not thermally sealed. Some spas have a small amount of foam on the shell and that is it. Those are not well designed.

Most sales people try to "lump" spas together, when in fact they have few similarities. If you study the industry, you will find all sorts of ways to insulate, some good and some really poor. I have studied this for nearly 10 years. It took 7 years of testing to come up with the best methods.

[Roger]

to insure that the air currents in the cabinet are properly directed and the cabinet is really sealed against cold air infusion. The bottom of the spa is sealed with an ABS sheet of plastic.

Then all areas where air is allowed to enter must have a rodent and a bug screen over the air vents.

The fact that the spa is air tight, also insures that no bugs or rodents can get inside, not even in the equipment area.

Most sales people try to "lump" spas together,

You are a master at double talk Jim here let me clear it up for people.

Air is allowed to get in but it is sealed air tight?????? Somehow.

[spa Dr.]

I'm doing a lot of research for my purchase. Thermospa and Coleman claim that my maintance and repair bills will be higher with a full foam insulation. I live in Michigan, gets freezing cold often. I have read that the difference in energy conservation is minimal. Is the other type of layered insulation any less on the repair bill. Is it in fact any less on the electric bill than the full foam? Is the other type of insulation recommended for my area? Or would I be asking for trouble? I have a hard time believing that a dealer could sell these models in my area if they weren't ok. for freezing weather. And...... does anyone have an experienced opinion on the thermospa maintanance and repair service? Thanks, for any and all help.

have repaired a whole lot of spas from many different manufacturers. Any time you have to fix a leaker

its a pain, with the exception of equipment leaks, its not that bad on ff spas. people will lead you to believe that a 1 hour repair on a non-ff spa will take 10 hours on a ff spa.its simply not true. A qualified, experienced service tech ,like myself, can usually find and fix any leak fairly quick.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Actually it costs about 300% more to do a proper thermally closed insulation, than to have one guy with a foam gun, fill the bottom with foam.

1) That is just simply untrue but then again what's new coming from you.

2) I think this might be how you try to justify the outlandish prices you charge for the same spa that Phoenix sells for about 20% less. Between the spas you sell and Thermospas I'm not sure which are more overpriced.

[drprwnap]

Full foam spas tend to have freeze damage because there is no "down time" when the power is cut to the equipment. The GFCI trips and you have $1000 to $2000 in damages overnight.

This is the most inaccurate statement I have ever heard. I'll bet the price of my ff spa that if I lose power overnight, I will NOT have $1000 to $2000 in damages.

In my shopping experience, it became clear to me that the type of insulation really didn't matter. I live in PA. so it gets cold here, also. Buy a top brand from a good dealer that feels best to YOU after a wet test. A spa is like any big ticked item. You might get a "lemon". No manufacturing process is perfect. That's why to go with a top brand and good dealer. If you do have a problem, they will work together to solve it. Good luck.

[Jim_The_Jim]

This is the most inaccurate statement I have ever heard. I'll bet the price of my ff spa that if I lose power overnight, I will NOT have $1000 to $2000 in damages.

In my shopping experience, it became clear to me that the type of insulation really didn't matter. I live in PA. so it gets cold here, also. Buy a top brand from a good dealer that feels best to YOU after a wet test. A spa is like any big ticked item. You might get a "lemon". No manufacturing process is perfect. That's why to go with a top brand and good dealer. If you do have a problem, they will work together to solve it. Good luck.

Who told you that the type of insulation doesn't matter? Was it salespeople? It is like sales people also will tell you that full foam spas don't leak in the foam area. I can tell you that is also not true.

I stand corrected, and I suppose you would have a few hours of down time up to one day before things start icing up to the point of damage at 15-20 degrees F. Typically in Colorado a weekend trip is enought to "do in" a Southern California full foam spa. (Most spas come from there) I have seen this many times as a repair person for spas. Take a bottle of water and set it out on your front porch and tell me what you see in a day? By the way there is no warranty for any freeze damage ("act of God") When it freezes, you are to blame for allowing the spa to not operate below 32 degrees. Also, you may want to check your homeowner's policy for the coverage on hot tubs freezing. A lot of the insurance companies are now requiring a separate "rider" on the policy for hot tubs.

If a pump is left out in the cold with no water running through it, it will ice up in a short time, depending on the outside temperature and the construction of the spa. Once it is iced up you have to thaw it just to get it back on again.

Typically when water freezes it expands. If it is inside a pump, heater, valve, pipe, or any peice of equipment, it will basically destroy it.

In Colorado at sub zero, you don't have time to get help to stop the full foam spas from freezing, because, most consumers are not even told that the spas can freeze by the sales person. They hapily go to grandma's house for the holidays, and return to a frozen mess because they were never educated on how spas operate in cold.

The cabinet behind the equipment area is filled with foam, this has a detrimental effect on the equipment area. The equipment has no or almost no thermal contact with the spa water vessel, so it recieves almost no heat from the spa vessel. The cold is allowed to go directly on the equipment containing water. In a thermally closed design, the vessel is in thermal contact with all the equipment. While the jet pumps are running the heat generated is passed into the water to save energy, and if the power is shut off the vessel will pass heat back into the equipment area.

It is similar to having a huge "hot water bottle" in the middle of a small room. All you have to do is keep the pipes and equipment above 32 degrees. If you have a hot water bottle of 400 gallons at 102 degrees you can do that for one to two weeks depending on the ambient temperature. There are limits to this as well. With this sort of "down time" a week long trip in freezing winter is not much concern.

The equipment and all of the pipes are kept in a nice warm room, and this also has the effect of stoping extreme expansion and contraction of the parts, that causes unions to leak, and glue joints to fail.

A good dealer is really important, so is purchasing a good value in a hot tub.

The other issue (besides a long down time in freezing cold) with Thermally closed spas is they cost less to own, less to repair, less on electricity. It is the modern design. If you want a top brand you need to find out what that is. A spa that is sold by the hundreds of thousands, is not necessarily a great product, but most likely it has a great marketing team, and high paid advertising that evokes emotional responses of security and comfort to the shopper and normally you pay a lot for that. It is the American Way. It is only people who are seasoned enough to look and do research who seem to buy more modern designs.

I highly recommend the wet test. I also highly recommend you get a satisfaction guarantee, that you can return the spa or get a replacement if you are not satisfied. We have replaced spas that were over a year old because the customer was not happy. It was a spa that had problems, because as you said: "No manufacturing process is perfect." (But there are better ways to build spas based upon the reality of science) As a result of replacing this spa that was nearly 2000 miles away we were able to use this customer for a reference and sold two other spas in his area. Upstate, NY. We have not had to do any warranty on that spa since then. This is normal for our products.

Your points are well taken, however, I don't think you have seen a true thermally closed spa, and most likely you purchased for a lot of good reasons based upon the knowledge you had at that time.

I have invented three devices for full foam spas that help to stop freezing and give down time. Mostly we sell those to people who have homes that they don't live in, week end homes, up in the Colorado Mountains and they have had their spas freeze. (Closing the door after the horses have left the barn.) We offer them to our customers who are often away for months at a time. Prepare for the worst, expect the best.

These "Freeze Guard" devices are great for vacation home spas. If you have a vacation home that you leave the spa for weeks at a time, you need to install one of these devices to keep any spa from freezing.

I hope I have at least saved you a few thousand dollars down the road, because you know that it is not a good idea to leave a Full Foam spa in winter without someone to watch it.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Typically in Colorado a weekend trip is enought to "do in" a Southern California full foam spa. I have seen this many times as a repair person for spas.

Jim The Flim Flam Man,

So much of what you say is so crap but what I find ironic is you trash the industry leaders and like to say how they're from Southern California (Hot Springs, Sundance, D1; like it matters where they're made) while your spas are made by a 3rd party and what do you know, they're in California also. I guess it's a better option because they're built farther north in that same state LOL (and BTW, I've seen pictures of the spa plant where you'rs are made and I'd call it a barn but that would be an insult to farmers).

[Roger]

Typically in Colorado a weekend trip is enought to "do in" a Southern California full foam spa. (Most spas come from there)

The double talking scare tactic salesman Jim is at it again. I am going to work on a FF tub today, oops friday that has been down for 2 weeks here in Northern Minnesota and it is not froze!! How could this be possible Jim? How in the world could this happen, it has to be a miricle!! I think 5 above is the coldest it has been so far but during this 2 week stretch it has been up and down to about an average I would say of 30 degrees. Below freezing, yet this tub did not freeze I wonder how this could be possible. Hot tub owners here in Minnesota are taught by the dealers and us fix it guys how to handle cold situations. Unreal. Oh and by the way Jim I think the pump seal it bad cause the motor was covered in ice, the GFCI keeps tripping, hmmm I wonder what's wrong with this tub? This could be a tough one.

[Jim_The_Jim]

The double talking scare tactic salesman Jim is at it again. I am going to work on a FF tub today, oops friday that has been down for 2 weeks here in Northern Minnesota and it is not froze!! How could this be possible Jim? How in the world could this happen, it has to be a miricle!! I think 5 above is the coldest it has been so far but during this 2 week stretch it has been up and down to about an average I would say of 30 degrees. Below freezing, yet this tub did not freeze I wonder how this could be possible. Hot tub owners here in Minnesota are taught by the dealers and us fix it guys how to handle cold situations. Unreal. Oh and by the way Jim I think the pump seal it bad cause the motor was covered in ice, the GFCI keeps tripping, hmmm I wonder what's wrong with this tub? This could be a tough one.

Roger, let me give you a story from personal experience. When I was the service manager at the Coleman store, I was over at a "Mall Show" with several spa companies. The Sundance dealer was in the next booth.

I asked him why they don't teach their customers that their spas freeze really fast in Colorado winter. (I had just done a freeze damage estimate for a frozen Sundance and the whole freeze could have been avoided by simply haveing the neighbor go and check on the spa.) The fellow I was talking to was the son of the Owner of the Sundance store and for him it is normal for the spas to freeze, repeat NORMAL. He told me that " That's a negative, and we don't bring up a negative during a sales presentation." Basically, he believed that full foam was the best, from his dad, and he believed the having freeze damage is a normal event they spa owners just have to deal with.

I asked him why he didn't tell the owners after the spa was delivered, or put that in the video or in some paperwork for the owner's to read. He said they don't want to "deflate a new owner. Besides it is in the owner's manual." I read the manual and it is only talked about in the warranty, where it states that the warranty does not cover freeze damage. I have not read the latest warranty from most full foam spas, but all the ones I have read, don't have specific winter use caution sections.

Maybe where you live the dealers are more realistic.

The normal scenario, is the owners have had the spa for a while with no problems. A few years down the road, on the trip to Grandma's, they come home to a spa disaster, because they don't get the education they need to save their expensive asset. To my way of thinking, why sell this archaic inferior design in Colorado in the first place. You would have to be a totally ignorant or unethical (or both) dealer to sell that to the people who support your company, once you learn that there are spas that can endure extended down time with no human intervention.

Gotta go, the Broncos are playing the Cowboys. I expect them to beat them by a large margin, but you never know?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim The Flim Flam Man,

So much of what you say is so crap but what I find ironic is you trash the industry leaders and like to say how they're from Southern California (Hot Springs, Sundance, D1; like it matters where they're made) while your spas are made by a 3rd party and what do you know, they're in California also. I guess it's a better option because they're built farther north in that same state LOL (and BTW, I've seen pictures of the spa plant where you'rs are made and I'd call it a barn but that would be an insult to farmers).

It is interesting how people will say things about the factory or Haven Spas, yet they have never personally seen a Haven Spa, nor have they seen the factory.

Here is the exact statement of one of our customers who took a tour of the factory. He is also an MD.

"Posted By: Rob (adsl-66-122-52-193.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net)

Date: Tuesday, 29 October 2002, at 3:43 p.m.

I ordered a Springville about 2 weeks ago, and had some pangs of doubt after reading the very nasty and infamous tripod site. I've got to say, I so much appreciate all of the info on design and construction that Jim has posted and that is so reassuring. Anyway, to assuage my pangs of doubt, I paid a visit to the Phoenix Spa Factory, located about 10 miles from my house in California (it is in Anderson) This is the factory maligned on the tripod site, and where the Spa Specialist spas are made.

Overall I left with a very favorable impression. It is a clean, well organized facility, quite busy and actively producing lots of different spas. The man that gave me the tour had nothing but good things to say about Jim and admitted that Haven Spas were constructed to a higher standard and spec'd somewhat differently than their own line (ie, ABS plastic bottom, more insulation, etc.) He said that the shell designs are basically the same as theirs, but that the plumbing and the jet patterns/specs, and air jets are done differently.

I can't imagine that any other spa factory would look a whole lot different. The workers seemed to be taking good care of things and spending adequate time and effort finishing the products.

So, my mind is at ease and we're eagerly awaiting the call about the delivery date.

-rh"

Some further information: Rob moved from his home. At the new home was a D1 Chariman spa, but after looking at it, he told the sellers to keep it and he would move his Springville there.

This is not just some pride of ownership, it is how all the owners feel about their spa. I often wonder what gives spatech (the unreal one) so much venom towards me and our product. Are our spas that threatening to your livelihood?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

It is interesting how people will say things about the factory or Haven Spas, yet they have never personally seen a Haven Spa, nor have they seen the factory.

Okay then, I'll help them out.

Go to this site and you'll find pictures where you can see the factory along with a bunch of spas that are half built and just let outside in the sun.

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...ory/factory.htm

[Roger]

Roger, let me give you a story from personal experience. When I was the service manager at the Coleman store, I was over at a "Mall Show" with several spa companies. The Sundance dealer was in the next booth.

I asked him why they don't teach their customers that their spas freeze really fast in Colorado winter.

Obviously in your milder climate of Colorado freezing stuff, not matter what it is, hot tub, camper, boat, is not as important as it is here in the much harsher climate of Northern Minnesota. It is bread into us and both methods of insulation are very popular here with niether taking an advantage. At 20 below if you do not solve your hot tub problem it will freeze no matter what type of insulation it has. So we prepare and have contingency plans. Using which will freeze faster as a sales tactic will not work, it's mute, they will both freeze!! Yesterday it was 3 degrees over night and 16 during the day. That FF tub....still not froze. I will get to it today.

And Jim I charge less to prevent freeze damage on a FF tub cause it is easier and cost less because theres a smaller area to prevent freezing on.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Obviously in your milder climate of Colorado freezing stuff, not matter what it is, hot tub, camper, boat, is not as important as it is here in the much harsher climate of Northern Minnesota.

Excellent point LOL.

[A HELPING HAND]

They can fight all the want. Bottom line...a good full foam tub will have 3 to 4 layers of different foams starting with a 30 lb on the shell 5 or 8 lb for support 1/2 lb supporting the plumbing and usually a 1/4 in vapor or moisture barrier. Now most important to understand...with full foam you dont have the typical leak issues because in most cases pipes dont leak the joints or connections do from vibration and water weight transferral. The foam prevents this from causing leaks, this is why a good "full foam" spa will have a longer warrenty against leaking. Hope this helps

[thestallion]

A question that always goes unanswered in these never ending debate is why, what most consider to be leaders in the industry are all full foam makers, Yes there are also some well made TP style spas but what will always make up the majority of lists, Brands like Hot Springs, D-1, Marquis, Caldera, Sun dance, Jacuzzi are all full foam thses guys have the money and the R&D departments to switch to TP if they really found the benefits and no matter what someone who buys spas from someone else and than sticks their name on them might say. Those makers who offer FF and TP styles always have an extra charge to do FF so do not let someone who has a very difficult time separating fact from his own self serving ego let you say it costs more to do TP. As it has been mentioned here both will work well but it is the scare tactics that many TP salesmen try and sell people on that brings the heat out in this debate.

[Jim_The_Jim]

A question that always goes unanswered in these never ending debate is why, what most consider to be leaders in the industry are all full foam makers, Yes there are also some well made TP style spas but what will always make up the majority of lists, Brands like Hot Springs, D-1, Marquis, Caldera, Sun dance, Jacuzzi are all full foam thses guys have the money and the R&D departments to switch to TP if they really found the benefits and no matter what someone who buys spas from someone else and than sticks their name on them might say. Those makers who offer FF and TP styles always have an extra charge to do FF so do not let someone who has a very difficult time separating fact from his own self serving ego let you say it costs more to do TP. As it has been mentioned here both will work well but it is the scare tactics that many TP salesmen try and sell people on that brings the heat out in this debate.

The answer is money. The number one selling hot tub is Hot Spring and it is made with a thin cheaper shell, with no fiberglass. The foam is the support system primarily and it is used to cut manufacturing costs drastically. The consumers do not know much of anything about spas, they don't know what to look for unless they do research and read my book. My book is based upon years of work in the spa repair industry.

To take a cheaper shell and stuff it with foam saves about $400 to $600 per spa at the wholesale level. That should give you a clue how cheaply made an ABS/Acrylic spa stuffed with foam is. The only other places is see a simple ABS/Acrylic shell is at Home Depot.

If the number one selling hot tub is full foam, then other companies are going to copy it, even if it is a bad idea for consumers.

I can remember when Vita Spas was a very efficient design with the great sealed and insulated cabinet and removable panels to get access to all the parts. They used to advertise the superiority of the thermal pane design to the full foam in their brochures. The problem in sales is that you have to UN educate the full foam nonsense out of the heads of spa stores in order to make them change this thinking that full foam is a good idea. Some time around 1999 or so Vita started with the full foam. They put a heat jacket on the pump to try and extract some of the wasted heat caused by full foam design. Don't need that with a good thermal pane. Jacuzzi spas is another company who used to tout the thermal pane design and all of the Jacuzzi's up until 98 or so were thermal pane. It is just simpler to use full foam, but it causes all sorts of problems down the road for spa owners.

The full foam ignorance is not going to go away quickly. All of the old timers with the ego and attachment to full foam are going to have to go away, and the consumers are going to have to get educated by researching on the net.

On all the advertising sites with full foam spas, you will read something like "All major manufacturers agree that full foam is the best." But there is nothing to back up that statement.

All of the side by side comparison to full foam by outside companies has favored the thermally closed design.

There has never been a test side by side that was paid for by a full foam company, using an outside testing agency where a full foam spa was tested side by side with a thermally closed design. That will never happen, because the results would cause lost sales.

The manufacturers like LA who offer full foam, will charge for the extra foam, but they are not truely thermally closed spas to begin with. If LA were to offer a layered insulation method, I can guarantee you it would cost more than to simply fill the cabinet with foam, because a layered insulation method is LABOR intensive.

Our manufacture charges 175% more to do the thermally closed part that they do compared to the simple full foam.

I have actually answered this question maybe 50 times in the last seven years, you just have not read it before. It is not "unanswered" as you say.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Okay then, I'll help them out.

Go to this site and you'll find pictures where you can see the factory along with a bunch of spas that are half built and just let outside in the sun.

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...ory/factory.htm

Let me ask you this; What whould happen to a D1 spa if it was left outside in the summer sun at 110 degrees F, for even a day?

In the now thousands of Haven Spas that we have sold we have had a grand total of three with any shell warranty problems. Many of our spas are in their 7th year. The warranty is 20 years from the factory, and the surface is 7 years warranty. That is as good as it gets.

You seem to think that it is impossible for a spa shell to be outside at all in the sun, but that is because you are used to inferior shells, like Hot Spring D1 and others on your recommended list.

The spas are in the sun for a day or so, because they process about 20 to 30 spas a day.

It is interesting how much venom you have towards me. I can't believe that a person can have that much hate over some hot tub concepts. I receive a lot of email from people commenting on how much the spa sales people, hate me. I consider that to be a good thing. It shows how much fear they have for what I teach to the public. There is one thing you have not considered, I teach the truth, but you don't seem to want to understand it, because of some your attachments to your belief system.

I started out in the spa industry repairing spas. I was told that full foam was the best by the people I worked for. After a few years I had them understanding that was not true, by showing the facts. How is it that you are not as open minded? My employer was an engineer. That may have something to do with it.

[thestallion]

Jim your answer lack's credibility , first Hot Springs is the only maker you mention not to fiberglass their shells the others all do. Also LA is only one company, MASTER SPAS, CATALINA to name just 2 also have an up charge for FF. And I know of 2 tests done by TP makers who never published the results because they were not favorable. Maybe in a harsh environment the TP will offer you a extra day of protection but after that your done anyway and when you are not in this environment the bottom line simple truth is that FF will keep the water hot and for longer period of time with less juice than a TP style it will also support the plumbing and it should be more quiet. But again a well made spa with either will work well.

The answer is money. The number one selling hot tub is Hot Spring and it is made with a thin cheaper shell, with no fiberglass. The foam is the support system primarily and it is used to cut manufacturing costs drastically. The consumers do not know much of anything about spas, they don't know what to look for unless they do research and read my book. My book is based upon years of work in the spa repair industry.

To take a cheaper shell and stuff it with foam saves about $400 to $600 per spa at the wholesale level. That should give you a clue how cheaply made an ABS/Acrylic spa stuffed with foam is. The only other places is see a simple ABS/Acrylic shell is at Home Depot.

If the number one selling hot tub is full foam, then other companies are going to copy it, even if it is a bad idea for consumers.

I can remember when Vita Spas was a very efficient design with the great sealed and insulated cabinet and removable panels to get access to all the parts. They used to advertise the superiority of the thermal pane design to the full foam in their brochures. The problem in sales is that you have to UN educate the full foam nonsense out of the heads of spa stores in order to make them change this thinking that full foam is a good idea. Some time around 1999 or so Vita started with the full foam. They put a heat jacket on the pump to try and extract some of the wasted heat caused by full foam design. Don't need that with a good thermal pane. Jacuzzi spas is another company who used to tout the thermal pane design and all of the Jacuzzi's up until 98 or so were thermal pane. It is just simpler to use full foam, but it causes all sorts of problems down the road for spa owners.

The full foam ignorance is not going to go away quickly. All of the old timers with the ego and attachment to full foam are going to have to go away, and the consumers are going to have to get educated by researching on the net.

On all the advertising sites with full foam spas, you will read something like "All major manufacturers agree that full foam is the best." But there is nothing to back up that statement.

All of the side by side comparison to full foam by outside companies has favored the thermally closed design.

There has never been a test side by side that was paid for by a full foam company, using an outside testing agency where a full foam spa was tested side by side with a thermally closed design. That will never happen, because the results would cause lost sales.

The manufacturers like LA who offer full foam, will charge for the extra foam, but they are not truely thermally closed spas to begin with. If LA were to offer a layered insulation method, I can guarantee you it would cost more than to simply fill the cabinet with foam, because a layered insulation method is LABOR intensive.

Our manufacture charges 175% more to do the thermally closed part that they do compared to the simple full foam.

I have actually answered this question maybe 50 times in the last seven years, you just have not read it before. It is not "unanswered" as you say.