Is Full Foam Maint. A Problem

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim your answer lack's credibility , first Hot Springs is the only maker you mention not to fiberglass their shells the others all do. Also LA is only one company, MASTER SPAS, CATALINA to name just 2 also have an up charge for FF. And I know of 2 tests done by TP makers who never published the results because they were not favorable. Maybe in a harsh environment the TP will offer you a extra day of protection but after that your done anyway and when you are not in this environment the bottom line simple truth is that FF will keep the water hot and for longer period of time with less juice than a TP style it will also support the plumbing and it should be more quiet. But again a well made spa with either will work well.

Have you read any of the test reports for the side by side performed by independent companies and the one by the Universities of Colorado and Arizona?

It sounds to me that you start out with the idea the full foam is good, because you are some how attached to it. If you were to open your mind up just a little, you may be able to understand what I have written. I know that many consumer readers do, because I get calls from them all the time.

Full Foam is simply a bad concept and a bad thing to do to consumers on the first day that the thermally closed design was developed. That does not mean that people who own full foam spas are stupid, nor are you, just not informed correctly. The major spa companies have a vested interest in keeping the full foam myth in play, because it makes a lot of money. Like I said it is all about money and nothing else.

There is a huge difference between what you call and understand to be a thermal pane, like Catalina, or LA and what we do or what Arctic does or what the originators of the thermal lock did.

Typically a Catalina has foam on the shell, and some wood panels that are not sealed on the out side, with no foam on the bottom or no foam insulation boards on the walls or bottom. That is not a real cold weather design, but it does surprisingly well in cold weather for what it is. There is a slight benefit from the heat off the motors.

A "Thermally Closed" spa is a totally different beast from what you think. Take a look at our site and you may be able to understand.

Just as an example. Lets say that there are two spas side by side. Both have leaks, both are the same exact spa ,except one is stuffed with dense 2-pound density foam and the other is a thermally closed with removable panels, and light open cell 0.5 pound density foam on the shell. From my work in the hot tub repair in Colorado. The full foam would cost at least $400 to $600 to fix and the thermally Closed would be around $150.00 to $200.

There is no digging of foam to find the leak in a thermally closed design. The leak jumps out and is obvious where it is leaking from because the foam is open cell. Some of them are 20 minutes of time to fix. The longest part of the repair is driving to the site.

I have records of our spas and the time and effort on the repairs for manufacturing defects and leaks. I also have a fix em all service center in Colorado.

I remember on repair in particular in CT. The owner called me and said he could see water coming out from the "hot seat" area of his Springville model. We called a service company to go out and fix it. The service guy insisted that he needed $500 up front before he would go and look at it, because he is used to difficult leak repairs in full foam.

I told him that it could not be more than $200 to fix it at his rates. After talking with him for a while and becoming comfortable with his skills, I gave him a credit card number and he went to the customers home. It took him exactly 15 minutes to fix it. The owner timed him for me, because I asked him to. It was a leak on a barbed jet fitting that was not assembled correctly. All the repair guy did was reach for the fittting, because it was obvous, and cut the tubing off and re-glue and re-clamp it. Apparently the person who assembled it did not push the tubing on far enough onto the jet fitting.

He also did not need any of the parts we sent. We design the spas so that you can reuse the existing parts as much as possible.

In the full foam spa, with closed cell foam, the foam will trail the water to locations away from the leak, towards the bottom of the spa, or whatever path it finds. This makes finding the leak the hardest part. I have seen guys who developed extreme methods for finding leaks, and they still take a long time to find the source. As you may know, you cannot fix the leak until you actually see it leaking from the point of the defect. This is hours of work. A Catalina spa is not much faster, because of the foam they use.

There is a big difference between what we do and what a typical thermal pane spa is.

I am sure the upcharge at LA or Catalina is about the same as it is with our factory for a full foam spa. They charge me a lot more for the extra work to install perimeter insulation boards all the way around because it takes time and they use a couple of people to do it. By the time we are finished with the cabinet it is over 300% more costly to produce than the full foam.

Here is an exerpt from the Tong and Rogers report from the universitys of Colorado and Arizona. This statement is what caused me to get deeply involved in furthering the thermally closed design. The air cavity must be sealed from any cold air infusion for it to work this way. That is not what Catalina or LA does nor most of the so called "thermal pane" spas. Those are only partially insulated.

"a fully insulated spa {full foam} makes no attempt to recover and use waste heat." (Tong and Rogers 1996). "...the performance of an insulating system which makes use of a thermal barrier, generated by waste heat rejected from the motors and pumps, in an enclosed air cavity around the tub is superior to a system which simply insulates the tub directly."

Thanks for asking good questions. I hope you can take the time to understand what I have written. If you are a typical full foam salesman, you will not be able to absorb this easily.

P.S. The Broncos won, but not by as much as I thought. Anybody watch the game? It was a really good one with some excellent efforts from both teams.

[Chris H]

The spas are in the sun for a day or so, because they process about 20 to 30 spas a day.

TUO,

Please tell me I am not the only one that found this comment to be hilarious.

Here is an exerpt from the Tong and Rogers

Tong and Rogers – Cheech and Chong – all good friends.

Anybody besides Jim read Tong and Roger or were we all just hanging with Cheech?

[Roger]

Tong and Rogers – Cheech and Chong – all good friends.

Anybody besides Jim read Tong and Roger or were we all just hanging with Cheech?

I have been straying a bit but moma always taught me if you can't say something good about someone or something, don't say nuthin at all.

Over and over and over Jim preaches this BS payed for by a manufacturer study or that study that is full of holes. Or one has a 50 percent higher R-factor in the cover or something that makes every study he claims to have in his hip pocket nothing more than a BS sales tool for the proponants of the "Thermal Pane" style of insulation Jim uses on his tubs and several manufacturers use on there's. While it is a viable insulation option, it is not the only one available to consumers. And the other options that are available are just as viable and should be treated as such.

Your very opinionated opinion JIM is noted.

Oh and almost forgot.....JIM are you now using a sealed damper system like me to allow air in or is your cabinet still full of holes, unsealed?

[spa Dr.]

[

A good dealer is really important, so is purchasing a good value in a hot tub.

I know I'm new to this forum but after reading the thread "21 Reasons I Would Never Buy a Haven/Phoenix Spa" and the thread "You have got to be Kidding" as well as doing the research that the author of 21 Reasons suggested I'm fully convinced as an ex assistant distract attorney with 12 years experience before going into a private practice, that James Arjuna is nothing more than a con artist. The only reason I'm writing this post, is to give people my opinion based on my experiences and to warn people of this fact because con artists make me very angry!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

The spas are in the sun for a day or so, because they process about 20 to 30 spas a day.

Jim,

There is ZERO reasoning for ANY spa be in the sun. This is a manufacturing plant!!.

Have you ever heard of Lean Manufacturing?

Have you ever heard of Just In Time Manufacturing?

Each time one spa goes through final insopection all the spas whoucl move one step forward. You know there is no reason for any of them to sit out in the sun. That is soooooo ridiculous and so is your attempt to justify it. you should wise up, don't comment further and pretend it just didn't happen.

[Jim_The_Jim]

[

A good dealer is really important, so is purchasing a good value in a hot tub.

I know I'm new to this forum but after reading the thread "21 Reasons I Would Never Buy a Haven/Phoenix Spa" and the thread "You have got to be Kidding" as well as doing the research that the author of 21 Reasons suggested I'm fully convinced as an ex assistant distract attorney with 12 years experience before going into a private practice, that James Arjuna is nothing more than a con artist. The only reason I'm writing this post, is to give people my opinion based on my experiences and to warn people of this fact because con artists make me very angry!

That is direct defamation of my good honest character on a public forum. What did I ever do to you to get you so upset. All I ever talk about on forums is spa design, and modern research, and helping people with water quality issues and you are saying that I am a "con artist". What personal experience do you have with me or my company? What evidence? You know?-- the things that lawyers are supposed to look into?

If I am a con artist and those writings of those bad people is over 5 years old, why am I still in business and still delivering spas, gradually growing, all across the country and in Hawaii, and Canada, as well as some in Europe. We now have 9 Haven Reps in several states. If I am a bad person, which all of my customers will tell you that I am not, should I be unable to keep this going? The only reason I will stop is because of my age. Then I will turn it over to my children. There is no laws against being an honest person.

Did you know that thousands upon thosands of people trust me and appreciate my works and writings to improve this world just a little. I have helped many thosands of people with my book and my writings to make better choices in hot tubs and spas. I want to see the spa industry change into an ethical industry, that is based upon true engineering and good solid moral business practices. Our company is an example of that.

How much research have you done to find out the truth? Like: ZERO? I feel sorry for you. I really do. It must be hard to be so fearful and negative. God bless you.

[thestallion]

That is direct defamation of my good honest character on a public forum. What did I ever do to you to get you so upset. Do you live in some fantasy land? All I ever talk about on forums is spa design, and modern research and you are saying that I am a "con artist". What did I ever do to you?

Jim you claim to be proponent of the the truth yet it seems to only be when it is convenient for you or when it is your version of the truth. As a example the pictures of the spas left outside in the sun, no really believes the reason you give and and on different occasions the reason for those spas being left out changes. Jim I think you have some genuine and valid points from time to time but you seem not to be able to always tell the whole story and you bring up things that are simply untrue or at best half-truths.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I have been straying a bit but moma always taught me if you can't say something good about someone or something, don't say nuthin at all.

Over and over and over Jim preaches this BS payed for by a manufacturer study or that study that is full of holes. Or one has a 50 percent higher R-factor in the cover or something that makes every study he claims to have in his hip pocket nothing more than a BS sales tool for the proponants of the "Thermal Pane" style of insulation Jim uses on his tubs and several manufacturers use on there's. While it is a viable insulation option, it is not the only one available to consumers. And the other options that are available are just as viable and should be treated as such.

Your very opinionated opinion JIM is noted.

Oh and almost forgot.....JIM are you now using a sealed damper system like me to allow air in or is your cabinet still full of holes, unsealed?

Roger; I see that you are still angry. I am sorry for getting you so upset. If you read what I write, it is simply about the compairsons of spa designs and the details of my experience, then you will see me post my conclusions based upon a lot of research and study as well as hands on testing and experience.

I also have many years now of spa repair experience, and still have a small fix em all service center here in Broomfield. I know how much work is involved in repairing spas of different types of design. I know about the exclusive parts problems and the fact that most consumers really don't want to pay so much, just to have a spa.

To me there is no reason for the full foam concept to continue, unless they come up with a completely leak proof spa and find some way to stop it from freezing the equipment when the power is off or the equipment fails.

I am for progress and advancing the spa industry, not here to hurt or make people feel bad. I am here to educate consumers and discuss spa engineering. It is what I do. I love the techical part of spas and working to improve them. If what I do upsets you so much, I am sorry, truely sorry. That was not my intention. You seem to think that I am some sort of smart ass person, with some hidden agenda.

I love people, I believe that sharing and giving to others is a good thing. I used to post on message forums and talk about spa design and could not understand at all why I was so maligned for my love of what I do.

I just figured it comes with the territory, and I read a lot of quotes from people who have had to deal with similar crap.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody."

Bill Cosby

Jim you claim to be proponent of the the truth yet it seems to only be when it is convenient for you or when it is your version of the truth. As a example the pictures of the spas left outside in the sun, no really believes the reason you give and and on different occasions the reason for those spas being left out changes. Jim I think you have some genuine and valid points from time to time but you seem not to be able to always tell the whole story and you bring up things that are simply untrue or at best half-truths.

OK; What are you talking about. I get this sort of crap all the time, yet, nobody has ever come up with one thing I have said that is not based upon my experience, and from my reasearch and from the writings and research of many thousands of people.

Give me just one statement I have made that is not correct? Just one?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Did you know that thousands upon thosands of people trust me and appreciate my works and writings to improve this world just a little.

This is a BIG crazy world. T|he fact that your half truths and exaggerations are enough to convince 5 people a month to buy a spa from you is no surprise. If I started a website claiming that eating dirt was a great way to loose weight 99.9% of the people would think I was a quack but there still would be a few wackos here and there digging holes in their backyard. P.T. Barnham said it a century ago, Jim Jones proved it 30 years ago and in this century you're just continuing to show everyone how there is a sucker born everyday.

[Roger]

Roger; I see that you are still angry. I am sorry for getting you so upset. If you read what I write, it is simply about the compairsons of spa designs and the details of my experience, then you will see me post my conclusions based upon a lot of research and study as well as hands on testing and experience.

No Jim you are wrong I am not angry at all. I just have a differing opinion than you and guess what? Its OK I can do that. You do not need to convince or teach me anything, I'm a big boy I can learn it aw bye miself.

I don't need your hands on experience, study or research. I am a pretty smart guy and can do all that by myself. I apreciate your effort, but no thank you.

[SpaMan]

Roger, let me give you a story from personal experience. When I was the service manager at the Coleman store, I was over at a "Mall Show" with several spa companies. The Sundance dealer was in the next booth.

]

I have found someone who was there and they tell me that Jeff was the service manager and you were the assistant manager of service and there were only 2 techs. I guess I can ask Mick the real scenario of how it went down. This is by no means a large operation we are talking about.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I have found someone who was there and they tell me that Jeff was the service manager and you were the assistant manager of service and there were only 2 techs. I guess I can ask Mick the real scenario of how it went down. This is by no means a large operation we are talking about.

It is interesting just how much you don't know. I do feel sorry for you though. I pray that you are given the truth some day. May God bless you and your family and give you the gift of real knowledge.

I was the Service manager of the Colorado Hot Tub Exchange and Jeff was the retail manager of the chemicals and covers. It was a great working relationship. Jeff is a great guy. Jeff worked part time in service to fill in for warranty as I recall. Jeff started his own successful service company after he got married. Todd is one of the best service techs. I lost track of him. Bob is now and has been the service manager for All City for about 9 years, since I worked with him. I saw him briefly at a Sun Country get together a few years ago. He is a good man. He was the service manager for Carefree Spas, the Sundance dealer before working with me as a service tech. I have not seen a more experienced service tech as Bob. Terry went to southern Colorado where his family was. I think that makes five service people plus Mick who did some service, but was normally too busy to go out on calls. That makes six. 12 years ago having 15,000 service customers was big for a spa company, because there were not that many spas. We bought out another smaller service company as well. The last thing I heard about Mick was he was going to start a distributor company.

When I got into sales, I was to oversee the service department, because I had made it profitable.

That year the Colorado Hot Tub Exchange sold 275 spas, and got some sort of award from Coleman, and I left the company in Sept. Guess who sold most of them? All I did was tell the truth, just like I do now. It is easy to sell a good product, one that is not full foam and actually has engineering behind it.

Then I went to work for Mr Pool in Boulder for a short time before I started The Spa Specialist inc in December 1996. It was Mr. Pool who inspired me to start a business. By the way I wrote the book "How Spas Are Made" in 1995 to 1996 before the Spa Specialist existed. It was my gift to spa shoppers and has been read by many thousands of people. Some of the chapters were published in Aqua Magazine as parts of articles and as letters back in 96.

By late 1997 we were shipping spas out of state (the first one to Vermont) and the beginning of our very successful internet business started. Haven spas were developed in late 1998. That was seven years ago. You can read all about it on our site. Now at the age of 57 I am thinking about retirement. Funny how things change. We now have spas in most every state of the US, some in Canada, the UK and Hawaii. I particularly enjoy delivering to Southern California, because there are so many spa factories there. I am still trying to figure out how to get one to Alaska. When Sandy and I take a delivery trip, we have to not announce that we are leaving, so we don't have to turn down a ton of invitations to dinner.

Sometimes I have to "pinch myself" because it is a good life with lots of friends across the country. You can see some of the recent trip from Sandy's photos on our site. I don't want to be part of a large organization. It is much better to work with a few people and keep the quality high. The only problem we have is getting all the spas delivered, because we are small.

Big has never been a goal for me, because as you know it puts things out of control and the original ideal of high quality suffers. I have worked for some of the largest companies in the world, and all I did was feel like a replaceable number, just like all the people who have worked in your company and you will feel someday. I have met some of the ex-CS employees.

I hope that fills in the blanks for you. I don't understand why you have so much hate in your heart towards me. I am just a guy who loves hot tubs.

[spa Dr.]

The original idea for full foam was a cheap way to hold up a shell. It has become and advertising thing (propoganda) from spa companies because it saves a lot of money and increases the profits.

The problem in cold climates is not only the cost to dig out all that foam when it leaks (I didn't say "if") but it causes the equipment to freeze fast when there is an electrical problem that stops the spa from operation.

The independent testing by three outside companies and two universities all point to the thermal warm air barrier idea as the best.

Full foam spas tend to have freeze damage because there is no "down time" when the power is cut to the equipment. The GFCI trips and you have $1000 to $2000 in damages overnight.

My all time favorite was the NSPI site. They shut down the whole message board because of me. The NSPI is impotent at policing the members and is constantly being sued for it. They do not even scold Watkins for their flagrant disregard for the ANSI standard, and they wonder why they are being sued?

It is an honor to be banned by those worthless sites with hidden agendas and are not willing to discuss spa design!

P.S.

I can't be banned anyway. You would have to shut down the board, because all you need is another IP, like I can't get a few hundred of those??? Ha! Ha!

James Arjuna”

JIM PLEASE STOP SPREADING THE INSANITY. This sounds like a desperate cry for help, please get help Jim

[spa Dr.]

The original idea for full foam was a cheap way to hold up a shell. It has become and advertising thing (propoganda) from spa companies because it saves a lot of money and increases the profits.

The problem in cold climates is not only the cost to dig out all that foam when it leaks (I didn't say "if") but it causes the equipment to freeze fast when there is an electrical problem that stops the spa from operation.

The independent testing by three outside companies and two universities all point to the thermal warm air barrier idea as the best.

Full foam spas tend to have freeze damage because there is no "down time" when the power is cut to the equipment. The GFCI trips and you have $1000 to $2000 in damages overnight.

My all time favorite was the NSPI site. They shut down the whole message board because of me. The NSPI is impotent at policing the members and is constantly being sued for it. They do not even scold Watkins for their flagrant disregard for the ANSI standard, and they wonder why they are being sued?

It is an honor to be banned by those worthless sites with hidden agendas and are not willing to discuss spa design!

P.S.

I can't be banned anyway. You would have to shut down the board, because all you need is another IP, like I can't get a few hundred of those??? Ha! Ha!

James Arjuna”

JIM PLEASE STOP SPREADING THE INSANITY. This sounds like a desperate cry for help, please get help Jim. For more info go to http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/index.html

Jim I am new to this forum not to the spa industry though.

after reading some of your post i decided to do some research on you and your product

what i found was very disturbing and I had trouble believing everything I was reading so I went to

your website then I called you "looking for a spa"

your sales pitch over the phone was comical at best.

I had to hang up " my wife was giving me an ugly look"

remember me jim ?

[Jim_The_Jim]

My all time favorite was the NSPI site. They shut down the whole message board because of me. The NSPI is impotent at policing the members and is constantly being sued for it. They do not even scold Watkins for their flagrant disregard for the ANSI standard, and they wonder why they are being sued?

It is an honor to be banned by those worthless sites with hidden agendas and are not willing to discuss spa design!

P.S.

I can't be banned anyway. You would have to shut down the board, because all you need is another IP, like I can't get a few hundred of those??? Ha! Ha!

James Arjuna”

JIM PLEASE STOP SPREADING THE INSANITY. This sounds like a desperate cry for help, please get help Jim. For more info go to http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/index.html

Jim I am new to this forum not to the spa industry though.

after reading some of your post i decided to do some research on you and your product

what i found was very disturbing and I had trouble believing everything I was reading so I went to

your website then I called you "looking for a spa"

your sales pitch over the phone was comical at best.

I had to hang up " my wife was giving me an ugly look"

remember me jim ?

It is not a sales pitch. It is a discussion of reality. Sorry if it got to you.

Did you ever stop to think that people were impersonating me on those old message forums?

There was one fellow named Ken, who used about 16 different board names to try and attack, me and he also seemed to be the one who was impersonating me. For some reason he actually posted that he knew my password and posted my password on a post. There are some really awful people in this world. Don't be a victim of them.

Here is the real scoop on the Eric and Andy nonsense.

http://www.xxxx.com/The_Erik_Scam.html

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Here is the real scoop

If you had only made good on your promises that site wouldn't exist. what a tangled web indeed.

The REAL truth

[spa Dr.]

How much research have you done to find out the truth? Like: ZERO? I feel sorry for you. I really do. It must be hard to be so fearful and negative. God bless you.

Save your pity for your customers I don't want it. One day both of us will stand in judgement

before our higher power , I'm not worried , are you?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Save your pity for your customers I don't want it. One day both of us will stand in judgement

before our higher power , I'm not worried , are you?

Like I've said sooo many times. I do pity Jim and especially his customers for falling for the snake oil sales presentation. In the end, we are responsible for our own actions and how we treat others. I just don't know how he can sleep at night knowing that he is posting such outright lies and misrepresentations. I sleep like a baby.

[spa Dr.]

It is not a sales pitch. It is a discussion of reality. Sorry if it got to you.

Did you ever stop to think that people were impersonating me on those old message forums?

There was one fellow named Ken, who used about 16 different board names to try and attack, me and he also seemed to be the one who was impersonating me. For some reason he actually posted that he knew my password and posted my password on a post. There are some really awful people in this world. Don't be a victim of them.

Here is the real scoop on the Eric and Andy nonsense.

http://www.xxxx.com/The_Erik_Scam.html

Jim,

I did research both sides of the story before I came to any conclusion,I am usually very reserved in my oppinions. However, between the research I have done, reading the gibberish you post on this forum, and talking to you on the phone, I have come to understand just how deceptive you can be. As far people "impersonating" you, that sounds like a twist from the daily soaps.

It was pointed out to me once that if somebody tells you that your an idiot, ignore them, if two people call you an idiot, take it with a grain of salt, if three people call you an idiot,chances are you are an idiot and you should make an effort to change.

[mendon31]

They can fight all the want. Bottom line...a good full foam tub will have 3 to 4 layers of different foams starting with a 30 lb on the shell 5 or 8 lb for support 1/2 lb supporting the plumbing and usually a 1/4 in vapor or moisture barrier. Now most important to understand...with full foam you dont have the typical leak issues because in most cases pipes dont leak the joints or connections do from vibration and water weight transferral. The foam prevents this from causing leaks, this is why a good "full foam" spa will have a longer warrenty against leaking. Hope this helps

Yes that is helpfull, them arguing back & forth for the past week just confused me, I'm all about keeping it simple. Not ignorant or anything just simple. What kind of spa do you own? or service?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim,

I did research both sides of the story before I came to any conclusion,I am usually very reserved in my oppinions. However, between the research I have done, reading the gibberish you post on this forum, and talking to you on the phone, I have come to understand just how deceptive you can be. As far people "impersonating" you, that sounds like a twist from the daily soaps.

It was pointed out to me once that if somebody tells you that your an idiot, ignore them, if two people call you an idiot, take it with a grain of salt, if three people call you an idiot,chances are you are an idiot and you should make an effort to change.

I guess that after getting the facts that makes you an .......? There is nothing deceptive in me. It is just the opposite. I am an open book, for people to read. I believe in love for mankind, and giving, even taking the short end of the stick if necessary. Always be giving to others, and not be a taker. That is who I am in a nut shell.

If you see otherwise then you are really missing the boat.

[Roger]

I guess that after getting the facts that makes you an .......? There is nothing deceptive in me. It is just the opposite. I am an open book, for people to read. I believe in love for mankind, and giving, even taking the short end of the stick if necessary. Always be giving to others, and not be a taker. That is who I am in a nut shell.

If you see otherwise then you are really missing the boat.

I see your humble also. I would preach this about myself also Jim if I was trying to convince people I was not a decitful snake oil salesman trying to justify himself and his product. If this is not the case, and I was in your shoes I think I would shut up, bow out and try and figure out how to make the perception of myself better to the masses and not just a person or two. If you can convince only a few around you that you are there savior, then maybe your vision is not right, whether it is or not.

[spa Dr.]

Yes that is helpfull, them arguing back & forth for the past week just confused me, I'm all about keeping it simple. Not ignorant or anything just simple. What kind of spa do you own? or service?

I service every brand of spa. I am an authorized service center for, Master, Vita, Cal, D1, Marquis, Emerald,

if it has Balboa I know it, if it has Brett I know it. If its in the midwest I probably know it. I am a service consultant for several dealers in my area. I have worked sales and was good at it. If you have ANY service questions I can answer them without bias.

Also I want to apologize for getting "caught up" in the argument, thats not what this forum is for, I have no excuse. I'm sorry.

That being said, I am unable to promise that I won't get caught up again.

As my wife once told me, "its easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission" so I'm sure that I'll be asking forgiveness again

Thank You

[Jim_The_Jim]

Yes that is helpfull, them arguing back & forth for the past week just confused me, I'm all about keeping it simple. Not ignorant or anything just simple. What kind of spa do you own? or service?

If you want to be unconfused, then you need to get a copy of my book. You need to read the information at

our home page.

Most readers consider it to be a "breath of fresh air" compared to the nonsense from spa sales guys.

I have done warranty work for Caldera, Coleman, Wind River, American, PDC, LA, D1, Hercules, Emerald, Catalina, MAAX at Home Depot, Gatsby, Dynasty, Newport, Haven, Phoenix. I have also built wooden hot tubs, installed commercial hot tubs, reparied just about every brand of spa or hot tub you can think of, and I design spas and have them made, based upon that experiece and engineering research.

It is because I am a free thinker and have a lot of technical background that our spas are superior to all spas in current production.

[Roger]

I service every brand of spa. I am an authorized service center for, Master, Vita, Cal, D1, Marquis, Emerald,

if it has Balboa I know it, if it has Brett I know it. If its in the midwest I probably know it.

Where exactly in the midwest?