SunDance Cameo or Hot Springs Envoy?

[ClayC]

Clay,

You are looking at two very good tubs. I am fairly new to Caldera, but the very first one I wet tested happened to be the Geneva, here are my thoughts on the wet test.

I think the biggest difference is the Moto Massage jet in the Envoy. I love it and miss it in the Caldera. But that is so very subjective, you will have to decide with a wet test. The Geneva has far more powerful jets - so strong in fact that to me they hurt. I ran the diverters at half and it was great! In fact, the Caldera diverters are quieter than the HotSpring. Hope that changes soon...

If I got a Geneva I would change out the small Euro Jets for the Euro Pulse ones which come in the hand/wrist locations.

Some dealers don't even know that is possible, but it is and I include ten of the small spinners when I sell one. We put them in on delivery, showing the owners how to swap them out themselves in case they want to move them around or purchase more later. This can make all the difference in a wet test, so be sure to ask about it.

I like the Caldera Versassage jets which can be easily switched from straigh to rotary by just giving the nozzle a flick. Great idea. I think they are made by HydroAir, and you can also shut off the waterflow and this adds to the pressure of the remaining jets - not that this tub needs any help in that regard.

I don't happen to fit under the shoulder jets in the Ecstaseat, so be sure to wet test that one - or at the very least dry sit to be sure you are the right size for the seat. I wish I did fit it, because it would be just right as far as jet placement. My daughter fit just right, but my son, my wife and I are all too tall for it.

I like the fountains in both spas. They are very different - the Caldera seems like it was just added on to the skimmer - and in fact it was. But that doesn't mean it's a bad idea: it puts the waterfall closer to the center of the tub so you get less splashing on the shell. We all love the little colored spotlights in the filter 'cave,' but we also like the Bella Fontanna on the HS. Especially the way the light travels through the water.

You mentioned lower back problems - me too BTW - and the whirlpool jet is close to a nerve block! You can sit in front of it, or sort of 'hover' over the Euphoia jet (similar jet mounted up from the floor) BUT you had better be haning on. Those two are E ticket rides, if that means anything anymore.

I need to go so I may add more later, but one other item I wanted to mention: The Geneva comes equipped with the ozone, color changing lights on the outside (which synch with the ones in the grab bar, tub and waterfall inside). These items would cost more on the HS - and the HS outside lights stay blue. So if you like these features, be sure to remember that you will have to add them to the HS price. On the other hand, if you don't really care about these features, keep in mind that HS will not be automatically charging you for them...

I'm sick, so I hope I have made a bit of sense. Quality is about the same on both makes. The Caldera is fiberglas backed wheras the HS is not. The foam insulation is not identical as a result, but the heat-keeping ability seems to be just the same. Both covers are identical, and the control systems are as well. The circ pump in the Caldera is larger, and the ozone in the HS is better.

Thanks Chas,

I'll diffently have to check the shoulder jets, I'm 6'-0" and the wife is 5'-9".

Clay

[JASB]

Clay,

You are looking at two very good tubs. I am fairly new to Caldera, but the very first one I wet tested happened to be the Geneva, here are my thoughts on the wet test.

I think the biggest difference is the Moto Massage jet in the Envoy. I love it and miss it in the Caldera. But that is so very subjective, you will have to decide with a wet test. The Geneva has far more powerful jets - so strong in fact that to me they hurt. I ran the diverters at half and it was great! In fact, the Caldera diverters are quieter than the HotSpring. Hope that changes soon...

If I got a Geneva I would change out the small Euro Jets for the Euro Pulse ones which come in the hand/wrist locations.

Some dealers don't even know that is possible, but it is and I include ten of the small spinners when I sell one. We put them in on delivery, showing the owners how to swap them out themselves in case they want to move them around or purchase more later. This can make all the difference in a wet test, so be sure to ask about it.

I like the Caldera Versassage jets which can be easily switched from straigh to rotary by just giving the nozzle a flick. Great idea. I think they are made by HydroAir, and you can also shut off the waterflow and this adds to the pressure of the remaining jets - not that this tub needs any help in that regard.

I don't happen to fit under the shoulder jets in the Ecstaseat, so be sure to wet test that one - or at the very least dry sit to be sure you are the right size for the seat. I wish I did fit it, because it would be just right as far as jet placement. My daughter fit just right, but my son, my wife and I are all too tall for it.

I like the fountains in both spas. They are very different - the Caldera seems like it was just added on to the skimmer - and in fact it was. But that doesn't mean it's a bad idea: it puts the waterfall closer to the center of the tub so you get less splashing on the shell. We all love the little colored spotlights in the filter 'cave,' but we also like the Bella Fontanna on the HS. Especially the way the light travels through the water.

You mentioned lower back problems - me too BTW - and the whirlpool jet is close to a nerve block! You can sit in front of it, or sort of 'hover' over the Euphoia jet (similar jet mounted up from the floor) BUT you had better be haning on. Those two are E ticket rides, if that means anything anymore.

I need to go so I may add more later, but one other item I wanted to mention: The Geneva comes equipped with the ozone, color changing lights on the outside (which synch with the ones in the grab bar, tub and waterfall inside). These items would cost more on the HS - and the HS outside lights stay blue. So if you like these features, be sure to remember that you will have to add them to the HS price. On the other hand, if you don't really care about these features, keep in mind that HS will not be automatically charging you for them...

I'm sick, so I hope I have made a bit of sense. Quality is about the same on both makes. The Caldera is fiberglas backed wheras the HS is not. The foam insulation is not identical as a result, but the heat-keeping ability seems to be just the same. Both covers are identical, and the control systems are as well. The circ pump in the Caldera is larger, and the ozone in the HS is better.

We're about to get a Niagara, fantastic fit for us. BTW I'm 6' and my wife 5'10" and we both fit fine under the shoulder jets in the Ecstaseat. You mentionned you would change the small Euro Jets for the Euro Pulse ones, are those very expensive to replace? Since you give ten of them on purchase I would think not. I want to ask for them and have an idea what I'm asking for. Thanks.

[Chas]

We're about to get a Niagara, fantastic fit for us. BTW I'm 6' and my wife 5'10" and we both fit fine under the shoulder jets in the Ecstaseat. You mentionned you would change the small Euro Jets for the Euro Pulse ones, are those very expensive to replace? Since you give ten of them on purchase I would think not. I want to ask for them and have an idea what I'm asking for. Thanks.

I think they are around ten bucks each, or slightly less - I was looking into buying a bunch from the jet manufacturer, but Caldera orders them with a slightly different face plate, and I wanted them to match.

[ClayC]

Clay,

You are looking at two very good tubs. I am fairly new to Caldera, but the very first one I wet tested happened to be the Geneva, here are my thoughts on the wet test.

I think the biggest difference is the Moto Massage jet in the Envoy. I love it and miss it in the Caldera. But that is so very subjective, you will have to decide with a wet test. The Geneva has far more powerful jets - so strong in fact that to me they hurt. I ran the diverters at half and it was great! In fact, the Caldera diverters are quieter than the HotSpring. Hope that changes soon...

If I got a Geneva I would change out the small Euro Jets for the Euro Pulse ones which come in the hand/wrist locations.

Some dealers don't even know that is possible, but it is and I include ten of the small spinners when I sell one. We put them in on delivery, showing the owners how to swap them out themselves in case they want to move them around or purchase more later. This can make all the difference in a wet test, so be sure to ask about it.

I like the Caldera Versassage jets which can be easily switched from straigh to rotary by just giving the nozzle a flick. Great idea. I think they are made by HydroAir, and you can also shut off the waterflow and this adds to the pressure of the remaining jets - not that this tub needs any help in that regard.

I don't happen to fit under the shoulder jets in the Ecstaseat, so be sure to wet test that one - or at the very least dry sit to be sure you are the right size for the seat. I wish I did fit it, because it would be just right as far as jet placement. My daughter fit just right, but my son, my wife and I are all too tall for it.

I like the fountains in both spas. They are very different - the Caldera seems like it was just added on to the skimmer - and in fact it was. But that doesn't mean it's a bad idea: it puts the waterfall closer to the center of the tub so you get less splashing on the shell. We all love the little colored spotlights in the filter 'cave,' but we also like the Bella Fontanna on the HS. Especially the way the light travels through the water.

You mentioned lower back problems - me too BTW - and the whirlpool jet is close to a nerve block! You can sit in front of it, or sort of 'hover' over the Euphoia jet (similar jet mounted up from the floor) BUT you had better be haning on. Those two are E ticket rides, if that means anything anymore.

I need to go so I may add more later, but one other item I wanted to mention: The Geneva comes equipped with the ozone, color changing lights on the outside (which synch with the ones in the grab bar, tub and waterfall inside). These items would cost more on the HS - and the HS outside lights stay blue. So if you like these features, be sure to remember that you will have to add them to the HS price. On the other hand, if you don't really care about these features, keep in mind that HS will not be automatically charging you for them...

I'm sick, so I hope I have made a bit of sense. Quality is about the same on both makes. The Caldera is fiberglas backed wheras the HS is not. The foam insulation is not identical as a result, but the heat-keeping ability seems to be just the same. Both covers are identical, and the control systems are as well. The circ pump in the Caldera is larger, and the ozone in the HS is better.

Chas,

Hope you are feeling better.....

Just to get am idea on cost...

How much does the Utopia Geneva run? I got a guote for around $9,200 for the Envoy and $9,700 for the Cameo. Is it in the same price bracket? I read the filters can be washed and re-used several times, what is the going price for the filters and how often should they be replaced?

Clay

[SpaMan]

Chas,

Hope you are feeling better.....

Just to get am idea on cost...

How much does the Utopia Geneva run? I got a guote for around $9,200 for the Envoy and $9,700 for the Cameo. Is it in the same price bracket? I read the filters can be washed and re-used several times, what is the going price for the filters and how often should they be replaced?

Clay

Clay, good to see you have seen right through the sleazy tactics of unprofessionalism we call the "Colorado con" congrats and you will enjoy your decision for many years to come, only to look back and remember that you werent a sucker! Congratulations on narrowing it down!! with Chas's experience and dedication I would buy from him. So his advice is a great asset to you.

[spa-freak]

I am a recent hot tub buyer and have been lurking in this forum and in others for weeks. I have appreciated the vast amount of information I have gained and my wife thinks that, not only have we bought a tub, but that I somehow have a career as salesman. I must say, however, that I am saddened to see the negative interchange that is occuring on this simple request by ClayC for some comparison shopping. I immediately agree with Chas when he states that such posts, particularly the ones made by Jim, make this forum "less inviting to new consumers" I couldn't agree more.

I disagree with Jim when he states in post #14 "If talking about the suction design of your product is not the topic, then you don't know what the topic is." He goes on to say, "I thought the subject was about the ridiculous design of your spas." Actually, the topic was simply "Sundance Cameo vs. HS Envoy.

I feel bad for ClayC who is just trying to make a decision, only to have his polite request become tainted in an apparent long-standing battle between Jim and those not Jim. I understand that posters are not allowed to sell their wares through posts, however, I couldn't help but feel that this is Jim's motivation. (i.e. you know the old saying, "Bad press is better than no press.")

ClayC I hope you get your question answered.

[stl-rex]

Clay, when I was looking, the Geneva was running mid to high $8K. Earlier in the year a friend purchased it for $8500. I probably could have had it for the same price had I pursued it.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I am a recent hot tub buyer and have been lurking in this forum and in others for weeks. I have appreciated the vast amount of information I have gained and my wife thinks that, not only have we bought a tub, but that I somehow have a career as salesman. I must say, however, that I am saddened to see the negative interchange that is occuring on this simple request by ClayC for some comparison shopping. I immediately agree with Chas when he states that such posts, particularly the ones made by Jim, make this forum "less inviting to new consumers" I couldn't agree more.

I disagree with Jim when he states in post #14 "If talking about the suction design of your product is not the topic, then you don't know what the topic is." He goes on to say, "I thought the subject was about the ridiculous design of your spas." Actually, the topic was simply "Sundance Cameo vs. HS Envoy.

I feel bad for ClayC who is just trying to make a decision, only to have his polite request become tainted in an apparent long-standing battle between Jim and those not Jim. I understand that posters are not allowed to sell their wares through posts, however, I couldn't help but feel that this is Jim's motivation. (i.e. you know the old saying, "Bad press is better than no press.")

ClayC I hope you get your question answered.

I am trying to get consumers to stop being lambs brought to the slaughter, by BS sales pitches. If you don't what to read my posts, then do what I do and go to your presets and put a block on it. That simple. But I'll bet you cannot stop reading it. If you bought a spa already, then most likely, unless you bought one that is on my "good list", you are not going to want to read what I have to say.

[Roger]

I am trying to get consumers to stop being lambs brought to the slaughter, by BS sales pitches. If you don't what to read my posts, then do what I do and go to your presets and put a block on it. That simple. But I'll bet you cannot stop reading it. If you bought a spa already, then most likely, unless you bought one that is on my "good list", you are not going to want to read what I have to say.

This could be the case for some.....but others of us could really care less what you say, give absolutly no credence to your rants, consider ourself alot smarter than you in all regards and only want to make sure your sales pitch is kept in control on this board and any other public place you frequent. Some of us consumers see yours as a differnt pitch than most. But a pitch non the less.

[ClayC]

I am trying to get consumers to stop being lambs brought to the slaughter, by BS sales pitches. If you don't what to read my posts, then do what I do and go to your presets and put a block on it. That simple. But I'll bet you cannot stop reading it. If you bought a spa already, then most likely, unless you bought one that is on my "good list", you are not going to want to read what I have to say.

I'm sorry Jim but I must have missed your "good list". You know I have to ask. What Spas are on your "good list"?

Clay

[Amanda]

I am trying to get consumers to stop being lambs brought to the slaughter, by BS sales pitches.

Trying to stop a slaughter by slaughtering others? There's another way Jim.

I'm sorry for the people that are saddened by certain posts.

[ClayC]

Thank you, ClayC, I appreciate the compliment. Believe me, I do have an agenda to promote what I believe to be the best spa made. I sure don't try to hide that! But I don't believe in bashing the competition. That is poor salesmanship and is best left to the bottom feeders that abound in this (and every other) industry.

To answer your questions:

Pricing- those seem to be very competitive. They are about $600-800 less than what you would pay for the same thing here in East Texas. I seriously doubt you could find better pricing on those 2 spas.

Vista or Envoy- I actually prefer the less expensive Envoy and here is why. In the Vista, the captain's chair in the corner is set at an angle. The very powerful JetStream foot jet actually pushes my feet and body sideways (and I weigh 250 lbs). I find it somewhat annoying. The Envoy's captains chair has the foot jet facing straight on. I find this to be much more comfortable. It's a small thing but it might make a huge difference in your spa enjoyment.

What do you get for the $900 price difference? I more seat and a 2" deeper spa. In my opinion, not worth it. Unless you want the extra seat, I would get the Envoy. It outsells the Vista 7 to 1 in my store.

Be sure and try them both and see which one fits YOU the best. I wish you well in your endeavor!

Terminator

To answer your new questions (as well as one of your first ones I overlooked):

Best time to buy? Based upon the price you quoted me, I would say now. Those are excellent prices.

Dirty Filters- The Tri-X Filters do a great job. Since they do a great job, they get extremely dirty (huh, imagine that, dirt in the filters instead of your pump). No problem, put them in the dishwasher once or twice a month and you're good to go.

Water Flow- If the filters become too clogged to allow water to pass, the spa will shut itself off and the red and green lights on the front control panel will flash. That way you will definitely know that the filters need cleaning.

Pump Longevity- We have sold HotSpring Spas for 20 years. We have had to replace a total of 8 (EIGHT) jet pumps during that entire time. Chas (another HS dealer on this forum) stated on another board he has had to replace 6 jet pumps in 20 years and another 9 year HS dealer stated he had replaced 3. I can safely say that you will probably never have to worry about replacing your jet pumps should you get a HS.

Terminator

Hey Terminator,

Went to wet test the Envoy at the dealer that quoted it for $9,100 but the only had the Vista to test. So I tested the Vista, dealer was telling me the jet pressure and feel etc. would be the same as the Enoy. Is this true?

Then I left there and tried the Caldera Geneva Utopia spa at another dealer. Did not feel it was of the same quality as the Hot Springs.

So I thought I would go up the road further to another Hot Spring dealer and they had the Envoy but I had to "dry test it" the Captain's seat did seem a little nicer (hard to tell with no water). This place gave me a quote that put the other to shame. A package including CD ozone, cover removal system, startup kit and steps for $7,9995. This is over a $1,000 difference. They also had the Coleman 481 for $7,495 but have not heard alot about them. Both Hot Spring dealers have been around for over 15 years and are in good standings with BBB. Think I may go with the Envoy for $7,995 Should I insist on wet testing the Envoy before I buy or just use the Vista testing as a gauge?

Clay

[stl-rex]

Compared to even St. Louis "super duper" sales prices, that's a very competitive price for the Envoy. I know that doesn't answer your question, but that's one of the lower prices I've seen posted. I'm sure Terminator will fill in the remainder.

[East TX Spa]

ClayC, the salesman was correct when he said the Envoy would feel the same as the Vista. In one of my earlier posts in this thread, I outlined why I prefer the Envoy (positioning of the captains chair). The Vista is a great spa, but I like the Envoy better. Just my own personal opinion.

That is a fantastic price on the Envoy. If the Vista felt good to you during the wet test, so will the Envoy. Sounds like you're good to go!

If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact me. Good luck with your decision!

Terminator

[I Need a Spa]

Hey Terminator,

Went to wet test the Envoy at the dealer that quoted it for $9,100 but the only had the Vista to test. So I tested the Vista, dealer was telling me the jet pressure and feel etc. would be the same as the Enoy. Is this true?

Then I left there and tried the Caldera Geneva Utopia spa at another dealer. Did not feel it was of the same quality as the Hot Springs.

So I thought I would go up the road further to another Hot Spring dealer and they had the Envoy but I had to "dry test it" the Captain's seat did seem a little nicer (hard to tell with no water). This place gave me a quote that put the other to shame. A package including CD ozone, cover removal system, startup kit and steps for $7,9995. This is over a $1,000 difference. They also had the Coleman 481 for $7,495 but have not heard alot about them. Both Hot Spring dealers have been around for over 15 years and are in good standings with BBB. Think I may go with the Envoy for $7,995 Should I insist on wet testing the Envoy before I buy or just use the Vista testing as a gauge?

Clay

Clay - I got a quote for the same stuff for $7900 on the Envoy.

The only thing I don't like is the weird moto massage.

[I Need a Spa]

Clay - I got a quote for the same stuff for $7900 on the Envoy.

The only thing I don't like is the weird moto massage.

Hey Clay - What was the $ quote you got on the Sundance Cameo? Sorry if it's already in your message somewhere, I got tired of reading about how hot tubs suck.

[ClayC]

Hey Clay - What was the $ quote you got on the Sundance Cameo? Sorry if it's already in your message somewhere, I got tired of reading about how hot tubs suck.

The Cameo was selling for $9763 or $9298 Cash price

With

Freight (regularly $200)

Synthetic Cabinet (regularly $200)

Starter Chemical Kit (regularly $80)

CD Ozonator (regularly $400)

Cover Assist (regularly $269)

Cover (regularly $400)

30" Synthetic Steps (regularly $125)

[Jim_The_Jim]

I'm sorry Jim but I must have missed your "good list". You know I have to ask. What Spas are on your "good list"?

Clay

Arctic, LA, Catalina, Haven, Emerald.

Shopping list for your spa search.

1/ Look for spas that are easier to repair. As the spa ages, you do not want to spend extra money on labor, especially on leaks. The equipment should be spread out so one component is not in the way of removing the other. All of the side panels should be removable, and the spa should not be filled with dense foam to interfere with repairs. (Don't buy a luxury car and fill the hood full of foam!). The smaller tubing needs support with foam to keep it from shaking and leaking, so some foam support is needed. The standard design from 27 years ago is to stuff the cabinet with foam, then place the equipment in a box in front of the spa. This is not only a poor design for repairs, it is bad in terms of heat build up on the pumps and the plumbing has multiple consessions in design. It is much better to allow air space around the equipment. If you place the equipment in a large container as in a thermal pane spa, the heat is dissapated and the equipment is easy to access. If you have a leak in the plumbing, buried in the foam,in a fully foamed spa, it is very expensive to fix. How do you find it?

2/ Look for spas with standard parts. There are several companies that make readily available high quality parts. The word "EXCLUSIVE", means just what it says. You are excluded from buying parts from other suppliers. If they have exclusive parts that you like, check around to see how much they cost to replace. I certainly would not pay $500 for a heater manifold. Most all the major brands have some ridiculous prices on parts. All of the manufactures of spas use outside manufacturers for the various parts. If they buy enough parts, then they can have the parts "bastardized" so that they cannot be replaced with the standard part. There is no difference in quality between "exclusive" parts and non-exclusive. In most cases the non exclusive parts are stronger. One large company places the motor frame on the pump on a 45 degree angle, so that you can't even replace it with a better brand of motor. You are stuck with an inferior part and "pay thorugh the nose" for it.

3/ Look for spas that are fully insulated and not fully foamed. A fully foamed-in spa is not, by any stretch of science, the most energy efficient spa. Spas that capture the heat from the equipment and keep cold air off the components and plumbing are efficient. A fully insulated spa has foam on the shell, warm air chamber, and the walls of the cabinet have foam boards. The cabinet is closed with no vents that allow cold air to enter the cabinet except by vacuum. DAIT Click Here

4/ Look for spas with acrylic backed by vinyl ester bonding resin and hand rolled fiberglass with glass cloth or chop. This is the shell with the most history for strength, reparability, and beauty. (When something better comes along I'll be the first to let you know.) The cheaper spas will use a composite of Acrylic and ABS, or another plastic and ABS with no structural fiberglass. Then the cabinet is stuffed with structural foam to hold it up. This is a cause of many problems that result in expensive repairs and more expense to heat the water.

5/ Look for quality electronics. Right now Gecko makes the best (in my experience) and Balboa is very good.

6/ Look for spas that have good clean plumbing. If the pump can put out 200 gallons per minute and it is running at 150, there is something wrong with the design. If a diverter valve is used, make sure it is NOT the first thing the pump hits in the plumbing path. If the diverter valve is the first plumbing part after the pump, then the spa is poorly plumbed. I call this "diverter first" plumbing. Look for few turns in the main plumbing. A poorly installed diverter valve means that people have to wait their turn for the jets. The diverter valve is similar to driving you car with the brakes on, in which the engine works harder to do less work. If you cannot run all the jets at full pressure at the same time, then the spa has a diverter valve, restricting the flow.

7/ Look for bypass filtering with check valves on the main jet pumps. This insures proper water flow to the jets. It also follows the ANSI standards for safety. (The worse design is the no bypass plumbing on spa pumps because it limits the water flow and as the filters get dirty, the jet pressure drops. These spas have weak jet pressure to begin with and water diverters.)

8/ Look for pumps that are mounted to reduce noise. We use rubber mounting pads, solid 2 x 4 frames and lag screws to hold the pumps solid and get rid of "sounding boards" (thin plywood or plastic). Listen to the pumps running on high with all the equipment going. If you can't have a conversation, don't buy it. All you should hear is water!

9/ The length of a warranty on the spa should not be the primary reason for buying. Warranties are hidden "insurance policies" in the spa that you are paying for. It is built into the price of the spa. For instance, our least expensive spas have a one year parts and labor warranty for a reason. It is to make them affordable. Our high end spas have 5 years parts and labor. The same brand of components, same shell construction, same plumbing parts brands. ( When I hear a salesperson say: "we put our money where our mouth is". They mean "we put your money in our pockets and manipulate the interpretation".)

10/ Look for reasonable prices. A one horsepower (1.65 hp), one speed jet pump spa with no air jets (air injection) being sold for $6000 is a rip off. Look for the features per dollar of the spa as well as design and construction materials. Do not purchase any spa that you do not understand about the equipment being used. Find out the real HP, motor size, brand of motor, brand of electronics and jets.

11/ Avoid spas that use a tiny 24 hour circulation pump that produces less than 18 GPM. (Unless of course you want to buy scum balls, scum bags, scum bug, extra shock and water clarifiers, and enzyme treatments to help get the scum out of the water.)

12/ Don't be "sold" on a spa by a salesman. If you feel pressure and manipulation, get up and walk out. The deal they have now that is so good, may be even better tomorrow. Research the products and take some "salt" with you so you can take everything as they say with "a grain of salt". Make your decision to purchase at a later time based on knowledge. ( There is a company that goes around with trailers and RV's with a sign on the trailer saying "LIQUIDATION SALE". The spas they sell are lacking in cold weather insulation, not fully finished, and are being sold for about $1000 more than a comparable spa. They say if you don't buy now, you will miss out on the best deal. They also don't take care of the customers. They are unethical. This is the epitome of high pressure sales.) If you go to a home show, you need to know about spas and prices before you go, otherwise, you most likely will be taken advantage of. HOME SHOW WISDOM CLICK HERE

13/ Buy spas that are ANSI/NSPI(Click here) conformant. The largest manufacturer of portable spas does not follow these engineering design rules. These rules are their to protect consumers and are not subject to interpretation.

14/ At the present time, there are no valid rewards or awards in the possession of any spa company. Do not fall prey to awards that are paid for advertizing. Do not fall for the Consumer's Digest logo used on brochures, because that too is paid advertising. Do not fall for the NSPI awards to the spa company that gives the most money to the organization. Do not fall prey to "Star Ratings on Pool and Spa" it is paid advertizing. The spa industry is full of tricks to play with the uninformed consumer. The more out of date and rich the company is, it seems the more money they have. That is only because spa shoppers do not know anything about spas. All of the advertizing on earth cannot change a poorly designed products engineering.

[Roger]

Arctic, LA, Catalina, Haven, Emerald.

Shopping list for your spa search.

1/ Look for spas that are easier to repair. As the spa ages, you do not want to spend extra money on labor, especially on leaks. The equipment should be spread out so one component is not in the way of removing the other. All of the side panels should be removable, and the spa should not be filled with dense foam to interfere with repairs. (Don't buy a luxury car and fill the hood full of foam!). The smaller tubing needs support with foam to keep it from shaking and leaking, so some foam support is needed. The standard design from 27 years ago is to stuff the cabinet with foam, then place the equipment in a box in front of the spa. This is not only a poor design for repairs, it is bad in terms of heat build up on the pumps and the plumbing has multiple consessions in design. It is much better to allow air space around the equipment. If you place the equipment in a large container as in a thermal pane spa, the heat is dissapated and the equipment is easy to access. If you have a leak in the plumbing, buried in the foam,in a fully foamed spa, it is very expensive to fix. How do you find it?

2/ Look for spas with standard parts. There are several companies that make readily available high quality parts. The word "EXCLUSIVE", means just what it says. You are excluded from buying parts from other suppliers. If they have exclusive parts that you like, check around to see how much they cost to replace. I certainly would not pay $500 for a heater manifold. Most all the major brands have some ridiculous prices on parts. All of the manufactures of spas use outside manufacturers for the various parts. If they buy enough parts, then they can have the parts "bastardized" so that they cannot be replaced with the standard part. There is no difference in quality between "exclusive" parts and non-exclusive. In most cases the non exclusive parts are stronger. One large company places the motor frame on the pump on a 45 degree angle, so that you can't even replace it with a better brand of motor. You are stuck with an inferior part and "pay thorugh the nose" for it.

3/ Look for spas that are fully insulated and not fully foamed. A fully foamed-in spa is not, by any stretch of science, the most energy efficient spa. Spas that capture the heat from the equipment and keep cold air off the components and plumbing are efficient. A fully insulated spa has foam on the shell, warm air chamber, and the walls of the cabinet have foam boards. The cabinet is closed with no vents that allow cold air to enter the cabinet except by vacuum. DAIT Click Here

4/ Look for spas with acrylic backed by vinyl ester bonding resin and hand rolled fiberglass with glass cloth or chop. This is the shell with the most history for strength, reparability, and beauty. (When something better comes along I'll be the first to let you know.) The cheaper spas will use a composite of Acrylic and ABS, or another plastic and ABS with no structural fiberglass. Then the cabinet is stuffed with structural foam to hold it up. This is a cause of many problems that result in expensive repairs and more expense to heat the water.

5/ Look for quality electronics. Right now Gecko makes the best (in my experience) and Balboa is very good.

6/ Look for spas that have good clean plumbing. If the pump can put out 200 gallons per minute and it is running at 150, there is something wrong with the design. If a diverter valve is used, make sure it is NOT the first thing the pump hits in the plumbing path. If the diverter valve is the first plumbing part after the pump, then the spa is poorly plumbed. I call this "diverter first" plumbing. Look for few turns in the main plumbing. A poorly installed diverter valve means that people have to wait their turn for the jets. The diverter valve is similar to driving you car with the brakes on, in which the engine works harder to do less work. If you cannot run all the jets at full pressure at the same time, then the spa has a diverter valve, restricting the flow.

7/ Look for bypass filtering with check valves on the main jet pumps. This insures proper water flow to the jets. It also follows the ANSI standards for safety. (The worse design is the no bypass plumbing on spa pumps because it limits the water flow and as the filters get dirty, the jet pressure drops. These spas have weak jet pressure to begin with and water diverters.)

8/ Look for pumps that are mounted to reduce noise. We use rubber mounting pads, solid 2 x 4 frames and lag screws to hold the pumps solid and get rid of "sounding boards" (thin plywood or plastic). Listen to the pumps running on high with all the equipment going. If you can't have a conversation, don't buy it. All you should hear is water!

9/ The length of a warranty on the spa should not be the primary reason for buying. Warranties are hidden "insurance policies" in the spa that you are paying for. It is built into the price of the spa. For instance, our least expensive spas have a one year parts and labor warranty for a reason. It is to make them affordable. Our high end spas have 5 years parts and labor. The same brand of components, same shell construction, same plumbing parts brands. ( When I hear a salesperson say: "we put our money where our mouth is". They mean "we put your money in our pockets and manipulate the interpretation".)

10/ Look for reasonable prices. A one horsepower (1.65 hp), one speed jet pump spa with no air jets (air injection) being sold for $6000 is a rip off. Look for the features per dollar of the spa as well as design and construction materials. Do not purchase any spa that you do not understand about the equipment being used. Find out the real HP, motor size, brand of motor, brand of electronics and jets.

11/ Avoid spas that use a tiny 24 hour circulation pump that produces less than 18 GPM. (Unless of course you want to buy scum balls, scum bags, scum bug, extra shock and water clarifiers, and enzyme treatments to help get the scum out of the water.)

12/ Don't be "sold" on a spa by a salesman. If you feel pressure and manipulation, get up and walk out. The deal they have now that is so good, may be even better tomorrow. Research the products and take some "salt" with you so you can take everything as they say with "a grain of salt". Make your decision to purchase at a later time based on knowledge. ( There is a company that goes around with trailers and RV's with a sign on the trailer saying "LIQUIDATION SALE". The spas they sell are lacking in cold weather insulation, not fully finished, and are being sold for about $1000 more than a comparable spa. They say if you don't buy now, you will miss out on the best deal. They also don't take care of the customers. They are unethical. This is the epitome of high pressure sales.) If you go to a home show, you need to know about spas and prices before you go, otherwise, you most likely will be taken advantage of. HOME SHOW WISDOM CLICK HERE

13/ Buy spas that are ANSI/NSPI(Click here) conformant. The largest manufacturer of portable spas does not follow these engineering design rules. These rules are their to protect consumers and are not subject to interpretation.

14/ At the present time, there are no valid rewards or awards in the possession of any spa company. Do not fall prey to awards that are paid for advertizing. Do not fall for the Consumer's Digest logo used on brochures, because that too is paid advertising. Do not fall for the NSPI awards to the spa company that gives the most money to the organization. Do not fall prey to "Star Ratings on Pool and Spa" it is paid advertizing. The spa industry is full of tricks to play with the uninformed consumer. The more out of date and rich the company is, it seems the more money they have. That is only because spa shoppers do not know anything about spas. All of the advertizing on earth cannot change a poorly designed products engineering.

You forgot to write this is my opinion on here Jim. There's a few things on here that me and alot of others I am sure will dissagree with and prefer a different style or design that in my opinion which is just as valid as yours is just as good. Other than that a very informative post regarding your opinion.

[Chas]

Shoppers: be aware that the long list of suggestions above are the opinions of a man who sells spas over the internet. In other words, as you read it keep in mind that he is simultaneously knocking other designs and making it sound as if his product is the only good one.

Just a little info he forgot to mention.

:-)

[Chris H]

13/ Buy spas that are ANSI/NSPI(Click here) conformant. The largest manufacturer of portable spas does not follow these engineering design rules. These rules are their to protect consumers and are not subject to interpretation.

Where am I supposed to click?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

13/ Buy spas that are ANSI/NSPI(Click here) conformant. The largest manufacturer of portable spas does not follow these engineering design rules. These rules are their to protect consumers and are not subject to interpretation.

That is half misleading and half untrue.

For simplicity, just make sure the spa you are considering is UL or ETL listed. They check the spas out to make sure they are compliant and safe to use.

[ClayC]

Where am I supposed to click?

He must of clipped and pasted from his spaspecialist (Haven spa) website

[spatech (the unreal one)]

He must of clipped and pasted from his spaspecialist (Haven spa) website

This site could use a spellchecker and a truthchecker.

[Chas]

Truthchecker !! I love it !!

:-)