SunDance Cameo or Hot Springs Envoy?

[Chas]

On October 9 Jim said, "According to the ANSI and UL, you must use two separate areas of inlet for safety. Having one area with filters is not safe according to the safety experts who put the ANSI and UL together. "

That's obviously wrong, or the tubs would not meet the ANSI/UL listing which ETL uses as the standard. HotSpring spas are ETL listed, and you can very easily confirm that by going to the ETL web site yourself. Common sense would tell you that having NO suction fittings in the bather area is safer than having four, five or even six of them. I'm sorry you don't like HotSpring spas Jim, but this argument of your is showing a bit of wear.

Jim said, "On a filter pump that does not move enough water to kill anyone, you can use 100% no bypass filtering."

So strange to see you trying to scare people away from the very product you sell for a living. HotSpring has been UL and/or ETL listed for far longer than your spa resale company has been in existance. I know you don't understand this, but having the small circ pump go through a filter is an extra - a bonus - which only makes it easier to keep the tub clean and clear. And it works, BTW.

Jim said, "We use a special filter system design that allows for up to 200 GPM of filtering while in the spa."

That's commendable.

Jim said, "I feel that spas not following the ANSI safety standards, are the real preditors of consumers dollars.

The absolute only reason for not following these safety standards is for profits and for no other reason."

I couldn't agree more. Why, then, do your spas not appear on the ETL or UL web sites as listed? Why should a consumer take your word over that of a company who helped to formulate the ANSI standard which both UL and ETL now use? Keep in mind that while you may know a lot about spas, and I certainly don't deny that you do, you are not a 'papered' engineer, and the big brand tub makers use real engineers to design in safety, comfort, performance and style.

Jim said, "The otehr issue is that the rate of filteing is inadequate to filter the water properly by using a tiny circulation pump."

The small circ pump pulls water through a filter as a bonus - added filtration, 24 hours a day, which only makes it that much easier to keep the tub clean and clear. It also makes it possible to introduce Ozone 24-7 for those who opt for the ozone system. It is not, nor has it ever been, the primary filtration system in a HotSprng spa. I have told you this on many occasions over the years, and I have even had you quote it back to me - so I know that you know it. For somebody who claims to know so much about HotSpring, you show over and over that there is a certain lack of understanding about the details of the product. I would politely suggest that you stick to telling us about the product you know, and give up on the competition bashing.

[Jim_The_Jim]

On October 9 Jim said, "According to the ANSI and UL, you must use two separate areas of inlet for safety. Having one area with filters is not safe according to the safety experts who put the ANSI and UL together. "

That's obviously wrong, or the tubs would not meet the ANSI/UL listing which ETL uses as the standard. HotSpring spas are ETL listed, and you can very easily confirm that by going to the ETL web site yourself. Common sense would tell you that having NO suction fittings in the bather area is safer than having four, five or even six of them. I'm sorry you don't like HotSpring spas Jim, but this argument of your is showing a bit of wear.

Jim said, "On a filter pump that does not move enough water to kill anyone, you can use 100% no bypass filtering."

So strange to see you trying to scare people away from the very product you sell for a living. HotSpring has been UL and/or ETL listed for far longer than your spa resale company has been in existance. I know you don't understand this, but having the small circ pump go through a filter is an extra - a bonus - which only makes it easier to keep the tub clean and clear. And it works, BTW.

Jim said, "We use a special filter system design that allows for up to 200 GPM of filtering while in the spa."

That's commendable.

Jim said, "I feel that spas not following the ANSI safety standards, are the real preditors of consumers dollars.

The absolute only reason for not following these safety standards is for profits and for no other reason."

I couldn't agree more. Why, then, do your spas not appear on the ETL or UL web sites as listed? Why should a consumer take your word over that of a company who helped to formulate the ANSI standard which both UL and ETL now use? Keep in mind that while you may know a lot about spas, and I certainly don't deny that you do, you are not a 'papered' engineer, and the big brand tub makers use real engineers to design in safety, comfort, performance and style.

Jim said, "The otehr issue is that the rate of filteing is inadequate to filter the water properly by using a tiny circulation pump."

The small circ pump pulls water through a filter as a bonus - added filtration, 24 hours a day, which only makes it that much easier to keep the tub clean and clear. It also makes it possible to introduce Ozone 24-7 for those who opt for the ozone system. It is not, nor has it ever been, the primary filtration system in a HotSprng spa. I have told you this on many occasions over the years, and I have even had you quote it back to me - so I know that you know it. For somebody who claims to know so much about HotSpring, you show over and over that there is a certain lack of understanding about the details of the product. I would politely suggest that you stick to telling us about the product you know, and give up on the competition bashing.

The problem for your company is the use of high performance pumps. The do not knwo how to use them, and you will most probably be one of the first to understand why.

Watkins sat on the board to create the ANSI safety standards, but they don't follow them. They don't follow them because of the "unique selling position" they get by not following the standard.

I am sorry that you are defending such things.

They basically set up the standards for other companies to follow, so that other companies could never get a UL listing if they copied the Hot Spring design. It worked for many years, and most all of the companies who tried to copy the Hot Spring design gave up on it. Personally I think it is an archaic design that was developed in 1982 and really has no reason to be on the market today, except for consumer ignorance.

[ClayC]

OK, once again, I'll try to make it as simple as possible without all of the jibber jabber. Answer this:

Is it better to filter out hair, skin, dirt, toenails, etc. before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing?

Is it better NOT to filter out hair, skin, dirt, toenails, etc. before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing?

It really is so simple. Even a child could answer this question. Can you?

Terminator

Hey Terminator,

Thanks for all your help so far.

Have a couple Questions....

I read somewhere the Tri-X filters can be cleaned in the dishwasher. How long do the filters last be doing this (for 3 years?) and about how mush is it to replace them?

Also since your in thr biz. How much should it cost for the SpaAudio upgrade? Is it worth it? or does the sound get "drowned out" by the spa jets etc.?

Clay

Hey Terminator,

Thanks for all your help so far.

Have a couple Questions....

I read somewhere the Tri-X filters can be cleaned in the dishwasher. How long do the filters last be doing this (for 3 years?) and about how mush is it to replace them?

Also since your in thr biz. How much should it cost for the SpaAudio upgrade? Is it worth it? or does the sound get "drowned out" by the spa jets etc.?

Clay

Chas you can answer this one too... LOL

Thanks

[East TX Spa]

You're welcome ClayC, I'm glad to be of assistance.

Yes, the Tri-X Filters can be cleaned in the dishwasher. Run them through a rinse cycle and DO NOT use soap or you will have bubbles out the wazoo!

The Tri-X Filters have been designed to last 7-10 years and possibly up to 20 years, depending on how often you clean and degrease them with filter cleaner.

We charge $1800 for the SpAudio, I have seen it on the net as low as $1500. The water does not muffle the sound at all, it is crystal clear even with the jets running. Is it worth it? In my opinion, no. You are much better off placing outdoor speakers around the spa. For the money you can get a much nicer set-up.

Terminator

[Chas]

I would agree. I like the uniqueness of the Spaudio system, and I sell several a year to folks who simply don't want to mess with speakers and wiring, but I wish it could be had for less money. They have created a special amplifier which pumps out over three hundred watts per channel, and can live in the envioronment of the motor compartment. That pushed the price up a bit...

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Yes, the Tri-X Filters can be cleaned in the dishwasher. Run them through a rinse cycle and DO NOT use soap or you will have bubbles out the wazoo!

Terminator

...and you want to make sure the HEATER/DRY cycle is off as well.

[ClayC]

You're welcome ClayC, I'm glad to be of assistance.

Yes, the Tri-X Filters can be cleaned in the dishwasher. Run them through a rinse cycle and DO NOT use soap or you will have bubbles out the wazoo!

The Tri-X Filters have been designed to last 7-10 years and possibly up to 20 years, depending on how often you clean and degrease them with filter cleaner.

We charge $1800 for the SpAudio, I have seen it on the net as low as $1500. The water does not muffle the sound at all, it is crystal clear even with the jets running. Is it worth it? In my opinion, no. You are much better off placing outdoor speakers around the spa. For the money you can get a much nicer set-up.

Terminator

How much do the replacement filters run a piece? (since there are 5)

Clay

[Guzz]

How much do the replacement filters run a piece? (since there are 5)

We sell them for $65 a piece in the north east. We have found that our current customers who have the traditional filters are upgrading to the Tri-ex even though they are twice as expensive.

[ClayC]

How much do the replacement filters run a piece? (since there are 5)

We sell them for $65 a piece in the north east. We have found that our current customers who have the traditional filters are upgrading to the Tri-ex even though they are twice as expensive.

I thought the Tri-X filters were for "Hot Spring" Spas. Can other Spas from other manufacturer's also use this filter?

Or just Spa's made by Watkins Hot Springs and Caldera? Or just older hot spring models?

Could you buy a Caldera and use this filter?

Clay

[Guzz]

Tri-ex filters can only fit on HotSpring Spas, Tiger River & Caldera use a differant size filter.

[Jim_The_Jim]

OK, once again, I'll try to make it as simple as possible without all of the jibber jabber. Answer this:

Is it better to filter out hair, skin, dirt, toenails, etc. before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing?

Is it better NOT to filter out hair, skin, dirt, toenails, etc. before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing?

It really is so simple. Even a child could answer this question. Can you?

Terminator

Tell me any spa that doesn't filter the water?

Tell me what other spa that does not filter better than a Hot Spring? Any brand?

I have been in this industry a long time, and I have done warranty work on 15 different brands, as

well as run a fix em all service center, and most all of the other brands, except for softub, filter better, move water faster to the filter and more volume per day, than Hot Spring.

This is that "implication" and "inference" junk that sales people use.

I can remember a Hot Spring sales person saying to a consumer: "I don't want my kids soaking in that stuff".

My response was: "Then you need to put them in a spa that filters better."

Here again is the reality of filtering.

A real filter filters from 50 to 10 microns or even smaller on some of the micro filters. A real filter is not a screen. A screen allows a lot of water to pass without filtering it. A real filter has the ability to filter aproximately ONE gallon per minute per square foot of filter fiber. A screen can run a lot more water through because it is not a filter. It is a screen.

The water contains debris.

Filtering is a gradual reduction of particals over time. There is no such thing as "filtering all the water all the time."

As an example for comparison I describe it this way:

Take a bucket of dirty mop water.

1/ Take it over to the sink and dip in one cup of dirty water and pour it out.

2/ Take a cup of fresh water and pour it in. Stir in the clean water and mix thoroughly.

3/ Do number one and number two until the water is clean.

The faster you do number 1 and number 2, the faster the water becomes clean.

Keep in mind that the bucket will have "hair, skin, dirt, toenails" in it until it reaches the filter( when you dip out a cup of dirty water). That takes a long time with slow water movement (very few "dips" per minute).

The "implication" of sales people is that an extremely low flow pump does that better than a spa that filters correctly with propulsion of the debris to the fitler. If you want clean water, you must move the water with velocity and power, because otherwise the spa will have "dead spots" where the debirs barely moves at all.

I hope that makes it clear.

In order for the Hot Spring spas to conform to modern safety standards, they need to have two separate filter housings feeding equally to a single pump. The filter housings need to be on separate planes or 3 feet apart. That is the ANSI UL standard.

[ClayC]

Tell me any spa that doesn't filter the water?

Tell me what other spa that does not filter better than a Hot Spring? Any brand?

I have been in this industry a long time, and I have done warranty work on 15 different brands, as

well as run a fix em all service center, and most all of the other brands, except for softub, filter better, move water faster to the filter and more volume per day, than Hot Spring.

This is that "implication" and "inference" junk that sales people use.

I can remember a Hot Spring sales person saying to a consumer: "I don't want my kids soaking in that stuff".

My response was: "Then you need to put them in a spa that filters better."

Here again is the reality of filtering.

A real filter filters from 50 to 10 microns or even smaller on some of the micro filters. A real filter is not a screen. A screen allows a lot of water to pass without filtering it. A real filter has the ability to filter aproximately ONE gallon per minute per square foot of filter fiber. A screen can run a lot more water through because it is not a filter. It is a screen.

The water contains debris.

Filtering is a gradual reduction of particals over time. There is no such thing as "filtering all the water all the time."

As an example for comparison I describe it this way:

Take a buck of dirty mop water.

1/ Take it over to the sink and dip in one cup of dirty water and pour it out.

2/ Take a cup of fresh water and pour it in. Stir in the clean water and mix thoroughly.

3/ Do number one and number two until the water is clean.

The faster you do number 1 and number 2, the faster the water becomes clean.

Keep in mind that the bucket will have "hair, skin, dirt, toenails" in it until it reaches the filter( when you dip out a cup of dirty water). That takes a long time with slow water movement (very few "dips" per minute).

The "implication" of sales people is that an extremely low flow pump does that better than a spa that filters correctly with propulsion of the debris to the fitler. If you want clean water, you must move the water with velocity and power, because otherwise the spa will have "dead spots" where the debirs barely moves at all.

I hope that makes it clear.

In order for the Hot Spring spas to conform to modern safety standards, they need to have two separate filter housings feeding equally to a single pump. The filter housings need to be on separate planes or 3 feet apart. That is the ANSI UL standard.

Jim,

The Hot Springs Envoy Has 325 sq. feet of effective filter area conpared to 75-100 on other spas. So with over 3X the effective filter area allowing for the non-bypass system to filter all the water that is released through the jets (before it gets to the pumps).

[Chris H]

Tell me any spa that doesn't filter the water?

Tell me what other spa that does not filter better than a Hot Spring? Any brand?

I have been in this industry a long time, and I have done warranty work on 15 different brands, as

well as run a fix em all service center, and most all of the other brands, except for softub, filter better, move water faster to the filter and more volume per day, than Hot Spring.

This is that "implication" and "inference" junk that sales people use.

I can remember a Hot Spring sales person saying to a consumer: "I don't want my kids soaking in that stuff".

My response was: "Then you need to put them in a spa that filters better."

Here again is the reality of filtering.

A real filter filters from 50 to 10 microns or even smaller on some of the micro filters. A real filter is not a screen. A screen allows a lot of water to pass without filtering it. A real filter has the ability to filter aproximately ONE gallon per minute per square foot of filter fiber. A screen can run a lot more water through because it is not a filter. It is a screen.

The water contains debris.

Filtering is a gradual reduction of particals over time. There is no such thing as "filtering all the water all the time."

As an example for comparison I describe it this way:

Take a buck of dirty mop water.

1/ Take it over to the sink and dip in one cup of dirty water and pour it out.

2/ Take a cup of fresh water and pour it in. Stir in the clean water and mix thoroughly.

3/ Do number one and number two until the water is clean.

The faster you do number 1 and number 2, the faster the water becomes clean.

Keep in mind that the bucket will have "hair, skin, dirt, toenails" in it until it reaches the filter( when you dip out a cup of dirty water). That takes a long time with slow water movement (very few "dips" per minute).

The "implication" of sales people is that an extremely low flow pump does that better than a spa that filters correctly with propulsion of the debris to the fitler. If you want clean water, you must move the water with velocity and power, because otherwise the spa will have "dead spots" where the debirs barely moves at all.

I hope that makes it clear.

In order for the Hot Spring spas to conform to modern safety standards, they need to have two separate filter housings feeding equally to a single pump. The filter housings need to be on separate planes or 3 feet apart. That is the ANSI UL standard.

Note how Jim did not answer Terminator's question.

[Chas]

HS - and one or two other makers - choose not to offer a bypass arrangement whereby only a small percentage of the water goes through the filter before returning to the tub, they can do in ten minutes what other spas take hours to do.

Using Jim's post above, if you read it, you can see that bypassing water means that you have to move much more water to get the same level of filtration.

Thanks Jim.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Tell me any spa that doesn't filter the water?

Tell me what other spa that does not filter better than a Hot Spring? Any brand?

I have been in this industry a long time, and I have done warranty work on 15 different brands, as

well as run a fix em all service center, and most all of the other brands, except for softub, filter better, move water faster to the filter and more volume per day, than Hot Spring.

I can remember a Hot Spring sales person saying to a consumer: "I don't want my kids soaking in that stuff".

My response was: "Then you need to put them in a spa that filters better."

Here again is the reality of filtering.

blah, blah, blah.

Jim,

This is that "implication" and "inference" junk that sales people use. Get off the negativity bus at the next stop and try to sell your product based on it's merits (while you still have a product to sell) rather than drumming up some excuse for why people shouldn't buy other reputable products.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim,

The Hot Springs Envoy Has 325 sq. feet of effective filter area conpared to 75-100 on other spas. So with over 3X the effective filter area allowing for the non-bypass system to filter all the water that is released through the jets (before it gets to the pumps).

Those are the "screens" and they are not really filters. It was the only way Hot Spring could put in higher horsepower pumps and not change the sales pitch. They do a patial filtering of large debris and somewhere in side is a partial real filter, from what I understand.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/local/12870419.htm

They also do not follow the ANSI safety standards of having dual suctions as other spas do. They created the safety standards for others, but why don't they follow them.

Where are the dual safety suctions as required. There is nothing wrong with having screens for filtering large debris, but you need to have two separate suction inlets on each pump, according to the ANSI safety standards. This company needs to come into the modern world.

Have you LOOKED at the spas?

There are lots of Hot Spring sales people on these boards, but there are few people who actually know something about spas.

The spas in question are the HP so called "High Performance" models.

The problem is that Hot Spring does not have a clue how to make a high performance spa.

Do they have any qualified engineers? If they do, I sure would like to talk with them.

You can almost hear the discussions on these designs. I am going to give my adlib from a year or so back in the Hot Spring boardroom:

Chief of Hot Spring: "Well the competition is getting ahead of us. They have pumps that move more than 80 GPM. We have got to build something to compete in that arena. I heard that they even have pumps with two speeds."

Marketing VP: "We have to stay the course with our advertising campaign. We can't change the design. How are we going to put in high powered pumps and keep the 100% no bypass sales pitch? We got all of our dealers believing it is the best way to go and we certainly cannot afford to get them confused by changing the sales pitch."

Engineer: "Oh! God! Please help me!"

Marketing VP: "We are all counting on you! You must have a way to make it work!"

Engineer: "Well we can't use real filters any more, because you would have to have half of the spa filled with filters to keep the pumps from burning out.!"

Marketing VP: "How about we get rid of the filters and put in some sort of a screen? I can come up with a real good sales pitch to get the ball rolling?"

Engineer: "Oh! God! Help me!

Marketing VP; "Well then we are all set! Just get rid of the filters. I'll come up with a super jargon name for the screens, and we can sell a ton of them! It will also give us more exclusive parts to sell and we can charge an arm and a leg for these screens! I am so smart sometimes I surprise myself!"

Engineer: "What about the ANSI standard? We already lost our UL. Do you want to lose the ETL also?"

Maketing VP: "Don't worry we have enough money to pay them off."

Engineer: "I hope we have a lot of insurance too! I was taught at college that you are supposed to consult the ANSI and the UL for their guidelines before you design anything for consumers."

Marketing VP: "Why would we want to start that now? We have the edge with our sales pitches. Everybody else follows the ANSI and UL, that is what makes us different!"

Engineer: "Yes, but......."(cut off by the Chief)

Chief of Hot Spring: "Get on it, Jackson! I know you can do it! Or we can find someone else to do it if you get my drift."

Marketing VP: " I've gotta name. How about Teerex filters? or T something. Hmm? I'll work on that. You can call a screen a filter, can't you?"

Engineer: (Thinking quietly to himself) "Oh God! What have I got myself into?"

You must see the humor in this one!!

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim,

This is that "implication" and "inference" junk that sales people use. Get off the negativity bus at the next stop and try to sell your product based on it's merits (while you still have a product to sell) rather than drumming up some excuse for why people shouldn't buy other reputable products.

I am NOT on this board/ forum to sell anything. The board owner's made that clear. I am strictly here to help educate consumers.

[Chas]

Those are the "screens" and they are not really filters. It was the only way Hot Spring could put in higher horsepower pumps and not change the sales pitch. They do a patial filtering of large debris and somewhere in side is a partial real filter, from what I understand.

Wrong. They are filters, and they work well. I have had several spas running with the TRI-X filters in them, one in my backyard, and the filters do the job. Close to a hundred spas out in the field just from our stores alone, and they are doing the job. The filter medium is thicker than the traditional paper-type filters, stronger, they will last much longer, and they can be run through the dishwasher. Other than the fact that your tubs don't have them, I haven't heard any complaints.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I am NOT on this board/ forum to sell anything. The board owner's made that clear. I am strictly here to help educate consumers.

Then why did Clay say that you PM'd him (and many others I'm sure) to send him toward your website. To educate him, LOL?? Let's face it, you're trying to steer him to your website to sell him one of your rebrands. PLAIN AND SIMPLE! Be honest!

[Chris H]

Then why did Clay say that you PM'd him (and many others I'm sure) to send him toward your website. To educate him, LOL?? Let's face it, you're trying to steer him to your website to sell him one of your rebrands. PLAIN AND SIMPLE! Be honest!

We all know that Jim sends individuals PM’s and emails directing him to his website to research spas. That is how he gets his sales. It is absolutely amazing he hasn’t been banned yet.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Wrong. They are filters, and they work well. I have had several spas running with the TRI-X filters in them, one in my backyard, and the filters do the job. Close to a hundred spas out in the field just from our stores alone, and they are doing the job. The filter medium is thicker than the traditional paper-type filters, stronger, they will last much longer, and they can be run through the dishwasher. Other than the fact that your tubs don't have them, I haven't heard any complaints.

Explain to me exactly how it is 325 sq feet of filter in a small package. The last time is measured a filter it was actually the size they said. The filter would have to be about 32.5 feet long by 10 feet wide.

If that is the case that they filter so well, then what is the filter on the circ pump? It is also a Teerex?

[SpaMan]

Then why did Clay say that you PM'd him (and many others I'm sure) to send him toward your website. To educate him, LOL?? Let's face it, you're trying to steer him to your website to sell him one of your rebrands. PLAIN AND SIMPLE! Be honest!

SpaTech I dont believe he heard your question. YOU HAVE TO YELL!

Also realizing he now has NOTHiNG to lose by slandering Hot Spring he's getting bold enough to make Quotes on conversations that dont exist.

Explain to me exactly how it is 325 sq feet of filter in a small package. The last time is measured a filter it was actually the size they said. The filter would have to be about 32.5 feet long by 10 feet wide.

If that is the case that they filter so well, then what is the filter on the circ pump? It is also a Teerex?

WOW!! and who knows nothing about spas?? I'm blond and I understand it! (well grey)

[Chas]

Explain to me exactly how it is 325 sq feet of filter in a small package. The last time is measured a filter it was actually the size they said. The filter would have to be about 32.5 feet long by 10 feet wide.

If that is the case that they filter so well, then what is the filter on the circ pump? It is also a Teerex?

I think you are laboring under a misconception, and I would be glad to clear it up if I can.

First, let's get the name right. It's the Tri-X filter. It would amaze some of the readers how vehemently you have responded in the past to cute little insult-names that others have tried to use regarding YOUR product or YOUR name, so I would politely ask you to keep this at an adult level.

Next, the math. Each one of the Tri-X filters are around 65 square feet of surface area. They are about 11 inches tall, so if you spread one out it would have to be a little over 65 feet long. They have designed a ceramic-like material which allows for much deeper pleats - but is stiff enough to keep those pleats open. They put four on the pumps in most models, which is 65*4=260. Then they add one to the circ pump for a total of around 325. Those numbers may not be exact, but they are very close - and the system works in a manner which reflects it.

[ClayC]

I think you are laboring under a misconception, and I would be glad to clear it up if I can.

First, let's get the name right. It's the Tri-X filter. It would amaze some of the readers how vehemently you have responded in the past to cute little insult-names that others have tried to use regarding YOUR product or YOUR name, so I would politely ask you to keep this at an adult level.

Next, the math. Each one of the Tri-X filters are around 65 square feet of surface area. They are about 11 inches tall, so if you spread one out it would have to be a little over 65 feet long. They have designed a ceramic-like material which allows for much deeper pleats - but is stiff enough to keep those pleats open. They put four on the pumps in most models, which is 65*4=260. Then they add one to the circ pump for a total of around 325. Those numbers may not be exact, but they are very close - and the system works in a manner which reflects it.

Hey Chas,

I see you sell both Watkins brands. Comparing the Caldera's Geneva to Hot Spring's Envoy. Which do you feel has a more powerful jets. The HS has (2) 2HP Pump Motors and the Caldera has (2) 2 1/2HP. I am looking for a powerful spa (lower back problems). Do you recommend one over the other? They both seem to be great spas but very different in many ways (aroma ther., air jets, filtration systems) Any Input?

Thanks,

Clay

[Chas]

Comparing the Caldera's Geneva to Hot Spring's Envoy. Which do you feel has a more powerful jets. The HS has (2) 2HP Pump Motors and the Caldera has (2) 2 1/2HP. I am looking for a powerful spa (lower back problems). Do you recommend one over the other? They both seem to be great spas but very different in many ways (aroma ther., air jets, filtration systems) Any Input?Thanks,Clay

Clay,

You are looking at two very good tubs. I am fairly new to Caldera, but the very first one I wet tested happened to be the Geneva, here are my thoughts on the wet test.

I think the biggest difference is the Moto Massage jet in the Envoy. I love it and miss it in the Caldera. But that is so very subjective, you will have to decide with a wet test. The Geneva has far more powerful jets - so strong in fact that to me they hurt. I ran the diverters at half and it was great! In fact, the Caldera diverters are quieter than the HotSpring. Hope that changes soon...

If I got a Geneva I would change out the small Euro Jets for the Euro Pulse ones which come in the hand/wrist locations.

Some dealers don't even know that is possible, but it is and I include ten of the small spinners when I sell one. We put them in on delivery, showing the owners how to swap them out themselves in case they want to move them around or purchase more later. This can make all the difference in a wet test, so be sure to ask about it.

I like the Caldera Versassage jets which can be easily switched from straigh to rotary by just giving the nozzle a flick. Great idea. I think they are made by HydroAir, and you can also shut off the waterflow and this adds to the pressure of the remaining jets - not that this tub needs any help in that regard.

I don't happen to fit under the shoulder jets in the Ecstaseat, so be sure to wet test that one - or at the very least dry sit to be sure you are the right size for the seat. I wish I did fit it, because it would be just right as far as jet placement. My daughter fit just right, but my son, my wife and I are all too tall for it.

I like the fountains in both spas. They are very different - the Caldera seems like it was just added on to the skimmer - and in fact it was. But that doesn't mean it's a bad idea: it puts the waterfall closer to the center of the tub so you get less splashing on the shell. We all love the little colored spotlights in the filter 'cave,' but we also like the Bella Fontanna on the HS. Especially the way the light travels through the water.

You mentioned lower back problems - me too BTW - and the whirlpool jet is close to a nerve block! You can sit in front of it, or sort of 'hover' over the Euphoia jet (similar jet mounted up from the floor) BUT you had better be haning on. Those two are E ticket rides, if that means anything anymore.

I need to go so I may add more later, but one other item I wanted to mention: The Geneva comes equipped with the ozone, color changing lights on the outside (which synch with the ones in the grab bar, tub and waterfall inside). These items would cost more on the HS - and the HS outside lights stay blue. So if you like these features, be sure to remember that you will have to add them to the HS price. On the other hand, if you don't really care about these features, keep in mind that HS will not be automatically charging you for them...

I'm sick, so I hope I have made a bit of sense. Quality is about the same on both makes. The Caldera is fiberglas backed wheras the HS is not. The foam insulation is not identical as a result, but the heat-keeping ability seems to be just the same. Both covers are identical, and the control systems are as well. The circ pump in the Caldera is larger, and the ozone in the HS is better.