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SunDance Cameo or Hot Springs Envoy?


ClayC

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Hello All,

I think I may have gotten down to a couple Spas I’m interested in. Them being the Envoy by Hot Springs and the Cameo by Sundance. When talking to a local dealer he was telling me that Hot Spring Spas are the only one out there that filters (all 100%) of the water being discharged through the jets. Is this in fact true? And are there and other differences I should consider? By looking at the specs they seem very similar. Does anybody have any experiences with these to which one is better?

Thanks……..

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Yes, what he told you was partially true. HotSpring is the only spa manufacturer that utilizes 100% No-Bypass Filtration. The major befefit of doing so is that every single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters your spas pump, heater, and plumbing. This will prevent the buildup of debris inside the spas equipment and greatly extend the lifetime of the major components.

HotSpring and Sundance are both excellent choices. You can't go wrong with either brand. Good luck in your search efforts.

Terminator

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Hello All,

I think I may have gotten down to a couple Spas I’m interested in. Them being the Envoy by Hot Springs and the Cameo by Sundance. When talking to a local dealer he was telling me that Hot Spring Spas are the only one out there that filters (all 100%) of the water being discharged through the jets. Is this in fact true? And are there and other differences I should consider? By looking at the specs they seem very similar. Does anybody have any experiences with these to which one is better?

Thanks……..

Clay,

BOTH are very good spas from very good manufacturers. No one can tell you which is the better buy for YOU. In the end you'll have to decide which is best for you. I would put a lot of weight on how comfortable you are with each dealer that they'll service your needs properly afte the check clears and I'd put a great weight on how well each of them fits/feels in a wet test.

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The HotSpring is the only spa of the two you are looking at which filters all the water the pumps move. Both brands you are looking at are fine tubs made by large companies with firm financial footing.

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Yes, what he told you was partially true. HotSpring is the only spa manufacturer that utilizes 100% No-Bypass Filtration. The major befefit of doing so is that every single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters your spas pump, heater, and plumbing. This will prevent the buildup of debris inside the spas equipment and greatly extend the lifetime of the major components.

HotSpring and Sundance are both excellent choices. You can't go wrong with either brand. Good luck in your search efforts.

Terminator

Yea But?? Have you read the safety standards for portable spas. According to this the use of single suctions has been ruled to not conform to the modern safety standards. That is why no other company violates these rules but for some reason Hot Spring does.

Sundancce acutally follows the safety standards, and now especially with the larger circulation pump.

READ:

Under Article V of the ANSI/NSPI American National Standard for Portable spas also states:

Quoted:

5.0 CIRCULATION SYSTEMS

5.1.1 The system shall be designed to turn over the entire spa water capacity at a minimum of once every hour.

Unquote.

My commentary:

Do the math: A 7 GPM ( maximum) tiny circ pump in a 500 gallon spa does not turn over the water once every hour. At 5 GPM it is worse.

Under Article VI of the ANSI/NSPI American National Standard for Portable spas also states:

Quoted:

6.0 FILTERS

6.1.1 All filter elements, media and other components which require servicing shall be accessible for inspection, removal and repair, and shall be installed in accordance with the filter manufacturers instructions.

Unquote.

Under Article VIII of the ANSI/NSPI American National Standard for Portable spas also states:

Quoted:

8.0 RETURN INLETS AND SUCTION OUTLETS

8.2.2 A minimum of two (2) suction outlets shall be provided for each pump and the suction outlet system, separated by a minimum of three feet (3) [91.44 cm] or located on two (2) planes; i.e., one (1) on the bottom and one (1) on the vertical wall, or two (2) separate vertical walls. These suction outlets shall be plumbed such that the water is drawn through them simultaneously through a common line to the pump.

Unquote.

My commentary:

This is about a simple as "apple pie". You can change the spices in the pie, but you can't leave out the "apples and the crust". You must, by these rules of safety, separate the suction inlets and have two on each jet pump. The fittings have to be ANSI/NSPI and UL safety suction fittings as well. Read the article on wood tub suctions for more clarification.

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Yea But?? Have you read the safety standards for portable spas. According to this the use of single suctions has been ruled to not conform to the modern safety standards. That is why no other company violates these rules but for some reason Hot Spring does.

Jim knows Hot Springs filters differently that others and that this is what UL/ETL is for. Therefore, since they are UL/ETL lsited then what he is REALLY saying is that they do not meet HIS criteria but I doubt that is what they are striving for. More double talk from Jim, ignore him.

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I've heard much about this Jim guy. Yet another predator to blemish our industry. Will someone put him out of his misery?

Here is more engineering information for you. When you draw (suck) the water from the skimmer, throught a filter, down to the pump, the pumps do not run as well as with a much higher pressure (feet of head) source from the bottom of the tub. If you have to bring it down first then bring it back up you are extending the distance of the run and you are restricting the full function of the jet pumps. The pumps have to create suction at a higher inches of Mercury. That causes less power from the jet pumps and really is wasteful of the pumps potential.

It just so happens that the ANSI standard is also good engineering. And using screens for filters is not the same as using real filters.

Having dual suctions capable of the full flow of the jet pump at the bottom of the tub is much better hydraulically. The common term for it is "FLOODED SUCTIONS". You really want to start out with pressure on the pumps caused by the differential of the feet of head between the jets and the top of the water line. You do not want any suction to overcome at the front end of the pump to start with.

This old Hot Spring design gets more and more "interesting" as they try to improve it but actually they need to take a huge eraser to it and start over.

If you were to learn about spas from the standpoint of design, you would be able to improve the industry as a whole.

I suggest that you learn to respect people who have a lot more knowledge than you do.

If you are going to make death threats, I strongly suggest that you not do it on a public forum. I just figger' you don't know what you are saying, and you obviously have no respect for the ANSI safety standards as were quoted.

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Here is more engineering information for you. When you draw (suck) the water from the skimmer, throught a filter, down to the pump, the pumps do not run as well as with a much higher pressure (feet of head) source from the bottom of the tub. If you have to bring it down first then bring it back up you are extending the distance of the run and you are restricting the full function of the jet pumps. The pumps have to create suction at a higher inches of Mercury. That causes less power from the jet pumps and really is wasteful of the pumps potential.

It just so happens that the ANSI standard is also good engineering. And using screens for filters is not the same as using real filters.

Having dual suctions capable of the full flow of the jet pump at the bottom of the tub is much better hydraulically. The common term for it is "FLOODED SUCTIONS". You really want to start out with pressure on the pumps caused by the differential of the feet of head between the jets and the top of the water line. You do not want any suction to overcome at the front end of the pump to start with.

This old Hot Spring design gets more and more "interesting" as they try to improve it but actually they need to take a huge eraser to it and start over.

If you were to learn about spas from the standpoint of design, you would be able to improve the industry as a whole.

I suggest that you learn to respect people who have a lot more knowledge than you do.

If you are going to make death threats, I strongly suggest that you not do it on a public forum. I just figger' you don't know what you are saying, and you obviously have no respect for the ANSI safety standards as were quoted.

Of course they could add some huge 7 hp pumps and create another safety problem. Hotspring is a fine product my biggest competitor but a well made and warranted spas.

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Yes, what he told you was partially true. HotSpring is the only spa manufacturer that utilizes 100% No-Bypass Filtration. The major befefit of doing so is that every single drop of water is filtered BEFORE it enters your spas pump, heater, and plumbing. This will prevent the buildup of debris inside the spas equipment and greatly extend the lifetime of the major components.

HotSpring and Sundance are both excellent choices. You can't go wrong with either brand. Good luck in your search efforts.

Terminator

Guzz, I misread the sentence to state that 100% of the water is discharged through the jets. The dealer that ClayC spoke with was 100% correct. I just can't "reed tu guud." My bad! :wub:

Terminator

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I suggest that you learn to respect people who have a lot more knowledge than you do.

If you are going to make death threats, I strongly suggest that you not do it on a public forum. I just figger' you don't know what you are saying, and you obviously have no respect for the ANSI safety standards as were quoted.

Jim,

This is a public forum. That means that people should feel free to post questions, and answers, opinions and facts. But when you begin with the rhetoric of personal attack you not only make this forum less inviting for people but you also limit your own believability.

Since you sell a competing product with a different design, you would be well advised to simply state that fact. Nobody could argue with a statement like that.

You believe that putting the filter first is bad – as stated in your post – even though the tubs you sell have the filters on the suction side. Yes, the tubs you sell have a bypass arrangement whereby a large part of the water is not filtered as it makes its way through the various large pumps, but that is by the design of Phoenix, and it dates back many years.

This thread was started by a person asking about two particular brands - one which uses a bypass filtering arrangement and one which does not. They asked a specific question about something they heard in a sales presentation. Let's try to stick to the topic please.

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Of course they could add some huge 7 hp pumps and create another safety problem. Hotspring is a fine product my biggest competitor but a well made and warranted spas.

That is funny because I don't consider your product or Hot Spring to be competition at all!

:lol::D;)

HA! HA! HOOH! OHHH!

Have you even looked at a Hot Spring spa?

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Jim,

This is a public forum. That means that people should feel free to post questions, and answers, opinions and facts. But when you begin with the rhetoric of personal attack you not only make this forum less inviting for people but you also limit your own believability.

Since you sell a competing product with a different design, you would be well advised to simply state that fact. Nobody could argue with a statement like that.

You believe that putting the filter first is bad – as stated in your post – even though the tubs you sell have the filters on the suction side. Yes, the tubs you sell have a bypass arrangement whereby a large part of the water is not filtered as it makes its way through the various large pumps, but that is by the design of Phoenix, and it dates back many years.

This thread was started by a person asking about two particular brands - one which uses a bypass filtering arrangement and one which does not. They asked a specific question about something they heard in a sales presentation. Let's try to stick to the topic please.

Chas; There is one thing wrong with your premise. You can't read. I was just posting facts about how Hot Spring has no dual suctions as specified by the ANSI and UL and "pool boy" decided to make death threats.

Your buddy who I believe sells the same product is the culpret in posting personal attacks.

If talking about the suction design of your product is not on topic, then you don't know what the topic is.

I thought the subject was about the ridiculous filtering design of your spas, not a personal discussion of anyone.

In case you missed the difference your spas are not you.

Here is more. It is deceptive to consumers to present it as "filtering all the water all the time".

The reality is that no spa on earth does that, not ever, not at all. They all filter by a progressive reduction of particles over time. I am sure you have read my detailed article on how spas filter.

Here is how to describe this to "lay" people.

Take a bucket of dirty mop water and take it over to the sink.

Get a cup and dip in and remove one cup of dirty water.

Pour in one cup of clean water and stir it up, mixing it with the dirty water.

Keep doing that until the water is clean.

If you have a tiny circulation pump, it is similar to dipping in and pouring in a fresh cup about once a minute.

If you have a real filter pump it is like dipping in seven times per minute.

What really matters in filtering is if the water is stirred well to get the debris over to the filter, and the volume of water passing through the filter. In the example it is the number of cups of clean water being mixed with the dirty water, until the dirt is greatly reduced and the water is clear.

If you have a tiny pump that moves little water, it doesn't matter if it is blocked (100% no bypass) by the fitlers or not. What matters is the amount of water passing through the filter media over a given time period.

I am not allowed to talk about my products on this site, so I can't even mention them. I can only talk about the subject.

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For anyone that is interested in why 100% No-Bypass Filtration is a superior method of filtering the water, here it is, plain and simple. Ask yourself this:

Is it better to filter out hair, dirt, dead skin, toenails, etc. before it enters the spa's pump, heater, and plumbing? Yes or No

Is it better to have bypass valves that allow hair, dirt, dead skin, toenails, etc. into the spa's pump, heater, and plumbing? Yes or No

It really is simple. Some unethical salespeople try to flim flam customers into believing that it is better to suck garbage into your spa's internals than to filter it before it ever gets into the spa's internals.

Again, don't allow yourselves to be victimized by the rantings of online predators. Use your good common sense when making expensive purchases. :D

Terminator

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For anyone that is interested in why 100% No-Bypass Filtration is a superior method of filtering the water, here it is, plain and simple. Ask yourself this:

Is it better to filter out hair, dirt, dead skin, toenails, etc. before it enters the spa's pump, heater, and plumbing? Yes or No

Is it better to have bypass valves that allow hair, dirt, dead skin, toenails, etc. into the spa's pump, heater, and plumbing? Yes or No

It really is simple. Some unethical salespeople try to flim flam customers into believing that it is better to suck garbage into your spa's internals than to filter it before it ever gets into the spa's internals.

Again, don't allow yourselves to be victimized by the rantings of online predators. Use your good common sense when making expensive purchases. :D

Terminator

Thanks Terminator....

At least your answers seem straight foward and you are not trying to bash other spas and/or people.

Does seem that the Hot Spring Spa line may be the way to go.

I'm sure the pumps etc. would have a longer operating life without the dirt etc.

Now to the price Question

Does 10,000 for the Vista with Corona Discharge and cover removal system

or

9,100 for the Envoy withe the same package seem about right....

Is it worth the entra 900 for the Vista (has 2 "captain seats")?

Do the prices seem a little high?

Sould I try shopping for a better price?

Is there a better time of the year to buy? (do price flex with the seasons?)

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Thanks Terminator....

At least your answers seem straight foward and you are not trying to bash other spas and/or people.

Does seem that the Hot Spring Spa line may be the way to go.

I'm sure the pumps etc. would have a longer operating life without the dirt etc.

Now to the price Question

Does 10,000 for the Vista with Corona Discharge and cover removal system

or

9,100 for the Envoy withe the same package seem about right....

Is it worth the entra 900 for the Vista (has 2 "captain seats")?

Do the prices seem a little high?

Sould I try shopping for a better price?

Is there a better time of the year to buy? (do price flex with the seasons?)

Just thought of something else. If for some reason the filters are not inspected enough (like monthly) and the filters become more clugged per say. Does the load on the motor increase because it is trying to suck all the water for the filter? Which would cause to motor to more or less

have premature failure?

Is there some type of sensor (overload switch) that tells the system that the filters a somewhat clogged and shuts down the filtering system.

Or better yet a warning on the temperture panel that tells you the filters need cleaning?

Just an idea that passed through my mind...

Is this in fact a problem with the 100% non bypass system?

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Thank you, ClayC, I appreciate the compliment. Believe me, I do have an agenda to promote what I believe to be the best spa made. I sure don't try to hide that! :) But I don't believe in bashing the competition. That is poor salesmanship and is best left to the bottom feeders that abound in this (and every other) industry.

To answer your questions:

Pricing- those seem to be very competitive. They are about $600-800 less than what you would pay for the same thing here in East Texas. I seriously doubt you could find better pricing on those 2 spas.

Vista or Envoy- I actually prefer the less expensive Envoy and here is why. In the Vista, the captain's chair in the corner is set at an angle. The very powerful JetStream foot jet actually pushes my feet and body sideways (and I weigh 250 lbs). I find it somewhat annoying. The Envoy's captains chair has the foot jet facing straight on. I find this to be much more comfortable. It's a small thing but it might make a huge difference in your spa enjoyment.

What do you get for the $900 price difference? I more seat and a 2" deeper spa. In my opinion, not worth it. Unless you want the extra seat, I would get the Envoy. It outsells the Vista 7 to 1 in my store.

Be sure and try them both and see which one fits YOU the best. I wish you well in your endeavor!

Terminator

To answer your new questions (as well as one of your first ones I overlooked):

Best time to buy? Based upon the price you quoted me, I would say now. Those are excellent prices.

Dirty Filters- The Tri-X Filters do a great job. Since they do a great job, they get extremely dirty (huh, imagine that, dirt in the filters instead of your pump). :D No problem, put them in the dishwasher once or twice a month and you're good to go.

Water Flow- If the filters become too clogged to allow water to pass, the spa will shut itself off and the red and green lights on the front control panel will flash. That way you will definitely know that the filters need cleaning.

Pump Longevity- We have sold HotSpring Spas for 20 years. We have had to replace a total of 8 (EIGHT) jet pumps during that entire time. Chas (another HS dealer on this forum) stated on another board he has had to replace 6 jet pumps in 20 years and another 9 year HS dealer stated he had replaced 3. I can safely say that you will probably never have to worry about replacing your jet pumps should you get a HS.

Terminator

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That is funny because I don't consider your product or Hot Spring to be competition at all!

:lol::D;)

HA! HA! HOOH! OHHH!

Have you even looked at a Hot Spring spa?

Jim,

That's true, your biggest competition is the truth. When the truth is revealed, you stand no chance at making a sale. So when people go to http://www.selberg.org/~speed/spa.html and see what might be in store for them, you loose any chance at a sale. The truth is your biggest competitor.

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Where can I read this article? It sounds interesting.

It is on Jim's site but it is not really an article. It is simply Jim's opinion, though he's welcome to it, especially on his own website. I simply have issue with him referring to it as an "article" as it does not meet the criteria to be labeled as such.

ar·ti·cle (ärt-kl) n.

A nonfictional literary composition that forms an independent part of a publication, as of a newspaper or magazine.

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It is on Jim's site but it is not really an article. It is simply Jim's opinion, though he's welcome to it, especially on his own website. I simply have issue with him referring to it as an "article" as it does not meet the criteria to be labeled as such.

ar·ti·cle (ärt-kl) n.

A nonfictional literary composition that forms an independent part of a publication, as of a newspaper or magazine.

I have been saying this all along. You can't classify opinion as article. On your own payed for web page you are entitled to spew what ever you like but to preach them as "Articles" behond those boundrys is a plain and simple mis truth.

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For anyone that is interested in why 100% No-Bypass Filtration is a superior method of filtering the water, here it is, plain and simple. Ask yourself this:

Is it better to filter out hair, dirt, dead skin, toenails, etc. before it enters the spa's pump, heater, and plumbing? Yes or No

Is it better to have bypass valves that allow hair, dirt, dead skin, toenails, etc. into the spa's pump, heater, and plumbing? Yes or No

It really is simple. Some unethical salespeople try to flim flam customers into believing that it is better to suck garbage into your spa's internals than to filter it before it ever gets into the spa's internals.

Again, don't allow yourselves to be victimized by the rantings of online predators. Use your good common sense when making expensive purchases. :D

Terminator

According to the ANSI and UL, you must use two separate areas of inlet for safety. Having one area with filters is not safe according to the safety experts who put the ANSI and UL together.

On a filter pump that does not move enough water to kill anyone, you can use 100% no bypass filtering.

We use a special filter system design that allows for up to 200 GPM of filtering while in the spa.

I feel that spas not following the ANSI safety standards, are the real preditors of consumers dollars.

The absolute only reason for not following these safety standards is for profits and for no other reason.

In order for a Hot Spring spa to follow the ANSI, they need to put in two separate filter inlets separated by 3 feet or on a separate plane. A "one holer" is not a "two holer" for those who don't speak proper English.

The otehr issue is that the rate of filteing is inadequate to filter the water properly by using a tiny circulation pump.

It is the number one complaint we get from Hot Spring owners with families trying to use the spa on a regular basis.

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OK, once again, I'll try to make it as simple as possible without all of the jibber jabber. Answer this:

Is it better to filter out hair, skin, dirt, toenails, etc. before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing?

Is it better NOT to filter out hair, skin, dirt, toenails, etc. before it enters the pump, heater, and plumbing?

It really is so simple. Even a child could answer this question. Can you?

Terminator

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