Hs 100% No Bypass Filtration - Is It Worth It?

[jan and clayton]

We are very close to purchasing either a Hot Spring Envoy or Sundance Cameo. The jets in the Cameo seem more powerful, and the HS salesman said it is because SD does not have 100% no bypass filtration. We are trying to understand the real benefit to this, because at this point it just seems to make the HS jets feel less powerful to us vs. the Sundance. Is Hot Springs the only one to do this? It seems to be their differentiator, but we're trying to understand the value. Any advice or opinions are appreciated.

[Wannago]

There is no real benefit to it, its just something HS does differently that they really like to hype.

The Sundance's water gets plenty of filtration via the normal circ pump / process, and there is no need to also run the jet pumps through the filters. As you experienced, it adversely effects the output pressure.

What is more important? A nice powerful raw (unfiltered) massage jet using water drawn from the main body of the tub , or a weaker jet that is using water drawn through the filters?

As well, HS has to use several filters in order to provide the filtering capacity, which is something you should think about with respect to maintenance (cleaning and replacing 5 filters!!)

100% no bypass filtration = overhyped overkill (IMHO)

[Sedro]

I love the no bypass filtration through the multiple filters because of the water quality and clarity it helps to maintain. I had a Cal Spas tub for 17 years with one filter and the usual split intake (filtered and bypassed). I hated to see debris in the water float right by the filter intake without getting sucked in (with the pump on high speed). It happened all the time.

With my 6 month old HS Jetsetter, there is a virtual Niagara of water that flows into the filter chamber when the main jet pump is on. I have not had any water quality issues. There may be other factors involved, surely, besides the no bypass, but I am very happy with it and would never go any other route.

Yes, it's true, multiple filters cost more to replace (but should last longer), and it is more of a hassle to clean them. I do rotate them regularly. But the water quality in my new tub is so very much improved over the old one, that it is worth it to me.

Just my experience and opinion....

[r5ran]

We are very close to purchasing either a Hot Spring Envoy or Sundance Cameo. The jets in the Cameo seem more powerful, and the HS salesman said it is because SD does not have 100% no bypass filtration. We are trying to understand the real benefit to this, because at this point it just seems to make the HS jets feel less powerful to us vs. the Sundance. Is Hot Springs the only one to do this? It seems to be their differentiator, but we're trying to understand the value. Any advice or opinions are appreciated.

Hi, this is the first I ever heard mention that the filters (if they are clean) really cut down on jet power. I tried my tub once with no filters installed, and felt no difference in jet power at all. If you felt one was more powerful than the other, that just may be the design. Sundance makes a good tub, and if you liked it better wet testing, then that should be your decision maker.......but alot of readers think that the HS no bypass filtration is alot of hype and marketing, and under normal tub use, I tend to agree, and that a single filter with a bypass is sufficient for most users, but it's hard to argue with how my HS Vanguard (with 2 filters for each pump and one for the circ pump) performed under it's recent extreme use.

Over the Christmas week, between 2 holiday parties, and 2 kids home from school that had 5-6 friends in it every night, we had about 45-50 different bodies in the tub that week! And that was about 2/3 girls with all their makeup, lotions, hair spray and body creams, too......not to mention everyone had bathing suits on too (at least when I was around!). I had expected with all that use, (and it was about 2 months old already) that my water would be a mess and would need to be changed after that week. To my surprise, except for an extra dose of dichlor after the gang left each night, my water stayed perfectly clear all week! I was planning on cleaning the filters right away, but something else came up, and was not able to get around to cleaning them till the next weekend, even though my water stilled looked fine. When I did start rinsing the filters, I found the usual debris/hair with a very slight film that I expected on the 4 pump filters.....but when I rinsed the circulation pump filter, boy, was I shocked! ph34r.gif ...a non stop creamy & milky looking film continuously came off that filter as I rinsed it thoroughly, leaving the floor of my garage with a huge white area surrounding where I had rinsed that one filter! Now, if I had had just a single filter, the pumps would of had tried to filter through that one slimy and filthy filter, instead of using the 4 other clean pump filters when in use.......I really can't see how they could of cleaned the water as well, or had enough pressure trying to push water through that clogged filter (even though i know they would bypass some of the flow around the filters, too...Now, like I said earlier, this is extreme and unusual use (bordering on neglect), that most users will seldom experience, but I really think it shows how well the HS system can work under stress if needed. Randy

[Mikey_in_NY]

Let's face it - Hot Springs, Sundance, and all the other quality tubs out there have well designed filtration systems, there's probably very little (if any) difference in the water quality between all of them.

IMHO this "no bypass" filtration system is just a load of marketing hype. A well designed system that does partially bypass the filter(s) will still filter the water more than enough to keep it sparkling clean, and free of debris - especially a tub with a 24 hour circ pump and ozonator. In the unusual event a tiny bit of debris does get sucked into the unfiltered jet pump, and then back into the tub then so what? Does it really matter? Does anyone really care? As for soap and oil contaminents in the water, these cannot be efficiently removed by mechanical filtration, but only by chlorine or whatever other sanitizer / oxidizer is being used.

Any in-line filter will reduce water flow - that's a indisputable basic law of physics. The only way to counter this is by using a more powerful pump/pumps than would otherwise be needed, leading to a higher electric bill with no gain in water quality.

[hottubdan]

Let's face it - Hot Springs, Sundance, and all the other quality tubs out there have well designed filtration systems, there's probably very little (if any) difference in the water quality between all of them.

IMHO this "no bypass" filtration system is just a load of marketing hype. A well designed system that does partially bypass the filter(s) will still filter the water more than enough to keep it sparkling clean, and free of debris - especially a tub with a 24 hour circ pump and ozonator. In the unusual event a tiny bit of debris does get sucked into the unfiltered jet pump, and then back into the tub then so what? Does it really matter? Does anyone really care? As for soap and oil contaminents in the water, these cannot be efficiently removed by mechanical filtration, but only by chlorine or whatever other sanitizer / oxidizer is being used.

Any in-line filter will reduce water flow - that's a indisputable basic law of physics. The only way to counter this is by using a more powerful pump/pumps than would otherwise be needed, leading to a higher electric bill with no gain in water quality.

This debate can go on forever. Fact is the 100% no bypass system filters all the water when you are in the tub adding "stuff." No other system does that. This is fact, not marketing. The question is what is the benefit? If you soak with others in non-filtered water, that is your choice. If you prefer to soak in water where everything is filtered all the time, you have to choose a Hot Spring.

Having stated that (and I am a Hot Spring dealer), I agree that all the better brands have filtration systems that work to filter the water well when the jets are not on, i.e. when the tub is not being used.

[Mikey_in_NY]

hottubdan - your point is well taken. There is no easy or right answer to all of this, just personal opinions. But hey - that's the great thing about this forum!

[Spa God]

filtration is marketing spin... in the day all spas used 25 sq foot filters and they worked fine... all filters do is take debris out of the water... they do not add to your water quality other than removing debris and most modern hot tubs have great filtration systems that adequately remove debris... total side track issue...

[JerimiahR]

Filtration is one of many key points to look at when deciding on which spa to buy. But it's not the only factor. Be careful that anyone (salesman or folks on this forum) try to convince you on what to buy based on one single point. The 100% no-bypass filtration on the Hot Spring brand works very well, and quite frankly gives a lot of my customers the peace of mind knowing that 100% of the jet water is being passed through filters before it goes through their equipment, plumbing, and jets (i.e. back against your body).

Although this really should not affect jet performance when those filters are clean, keep in mind jet pressure isn't the entire picture. It sure feels impressive at first. But ask yourself how long you want to get a massage. Very high jet pressure feels great for a couple minutes, and then you just have to shut the jets off. A good massage lasts more than a couple minutes. To successfully relax your muscles, you need a careful balance of pressure and time.

There are a lot of other technical differences between the Hot Spring and Sundance brands that you should also consider.

[hot_water]

"No-bypass" filtration has a strong benefit in applications where the goal is to deliver totally filtered fluid. A good example is an engine oil system. You want all the oil to be filtered before the pump for two reasons: the first is, any particles in the oil may score or wear the pump. The second (and more important) is, any particles that are delivered to the engine bearings will create problems there, again either by scoring or embedment. So you definitely want to filter 100% of the oil. Not all systems did this in the past, but today essentially all engines with pressurized oil systems filter all the oil, which is delivered directly to the engine crankshaft and camshaft bearings. Engines also contain a bypass that opens should the filter become clogged due to lack of maintenance. Passing unfiltered oil to the engine bearings is not good, but it's far better that passing little or no oil because of a clogged filter, which will lead to certain bearing failure.

A spa is a completely different animal. For simplicity, consider that you start out with a tub of water than contains particles and needs filtering. A no-bypass system delivers 100% filtered water. But it delivers it right back into the tub, where it more or less immediately mixes with unfiltered water. Thus it is no longer 100% filtered, it immediately again contains particles. As the filter operates, the concentration of particle sin the tub decreases until eventually the amount of particles in the water is acceptable.

Next, look a the more common bypass filtering method. Water is fed to the pump through both the filter and through underwater fittings that are not plumbed to the filter. The pump thus delivers a mix of filtered water and unfiltered water back to the tub. Just as in the no-bypass case, post-pump water immediately mixes with tub water. Since particles are removed, the concentration of particles in the tub is steadily reduced as the filter system runs, and after some time the concentration of particles is acceptable. It's very similar to the no-bypass case.

If you think about it, both systems mix filtered and unfiltered water. No-bypass mixes filtered and unfiltered water when it returns to the tub. Bypass types mix filtered and unfiltered at the pump inlet.

If the total circulating flow rate was the same, one could argue that a no-bypass scheme would bring the concentration down to acceptable levels quicker than a bypass system. While this is true, this logic fails to account for the fact that most particulate matter tends to float on the surface. This is why the filtration on most tubs is focused on skimming the contaminants frm the surface. Since the bulk of contaminants are on the surface, the "time" advantage of no-bypass is reduced.

Particles that do not float are still for the most part effectively removed by non-bypass systems. As the water circulates, even non-floating particles eventually find their way into the filter and are removed.

The fact is that most spas use either a 24 hour circulation pump or run the main pumps (higher volume) for between 4 and 8 hours per day. The result of this is that with either system, the concentration of particulates never gets high - no one likes dirty spa water - and the concentration of particulates in either bypass or no-bypass system is basically never allowed to get to unacceptable levels in normal use. With either system, the water is kept very clear.

There are a conditions where spa water will contain a high level of matter that needs to be removed by the filter. One is just external contamination - tree pollen particles or whatever - that get into the pool during say, windy conditions or when the cover is left off for long periods of time. These particles for the most part float. Another condition might occur when the spa water becomes cloudy. Often the particles are too small for the filter to remove, and a clarifying agent is added. These agents cause the small particles that are causing the cloudiness to bind together into larger particles that the filter can effectively remove. In such exceptional conditions, a no-bypass system will likely clear the water faster than a bypass type. However, with a bypass system if the pumps are run at high speed, it will be possible to clear the water in similar time or possibly even faster.

The disadvantage to a 100% no-bypass system is that as the filters clog, the pump performance is affected. Inlet side pressure drops as the filters accumulate matter. Jet performance can be affected, and very low inlet pressure can result in pump cavitation that can damage or destroy the pump - unless the design includes provisions to prevent this. If the filters are maintained adequately, as should be the case with a spa, this should never be a problem. It is also true that designs with a lot of filter surface area (lots of filters) mitigate this effect, probably to the point of it being negligible, and thus work fine. The downside is that you have a lot of filters, or large filters.

Bypass type filtration systems do not have this problem. Pump performance is not significantly affected by the state of the filter, and cavitation is not a threat. But clearly if the filter is poorly maintained the water will not be kept very clean.

I have had both 24 hour circulation pump systems and systems that run a jet pump on low speed during 2, 4, or 6 hour filtration cycles to effect filtration. My 24 hour system automatically cycled the jet pumps on for 5 minutes every so often to stir up particles that had settled, and also to flush water through the plumbing. This system, a bypass type, did a great job. My current spa is also non-bypass, but uses one of the jet pumps on low speed. I run the filtration 2 hours, twice a day (4 hours total) and it also does a very good job. The 24 hour systems have the advantage of running the ozone, if so equipped, constantly rather than just during the filtration cycle. They also generally consume less electricity and in my view tend to keep the water generally a bit more clear of particles.

A key aspect that should be looked at in ANY system is the cost and number of filters. More filters mean more filters to clean. Personally I like to deal with one or two, which can be rinsed every week or two very quickly. More filters mean more work. It's also true that lots of filters may mean that it will be more expensive to replace them, and, like everything else, filters are not cheap. I prefer systems that use, as I said, one or two filters that are generic sizes that I can buy online, inexpensively.

Overall, I like systems with bypass filtration to avoid any potential reduction in pump performance or possible cavitation as the filter(s) gets dirty, one or two filters, 24 hour circulation pump, and cycling the jet pumps on for 5 minutes a few times per day. My experience was that this system was quiet and effective. But really, any of the systems in use work very well so I wouldn't (and didn't) let the filtration make the decision. With either bypass or no bypass, if you keep your filters clean you will have well-filtered water, but it you don't maintain them you will have problems. Most spas are so similar in design and equipment that manufacturers need to have features that differentiate their product to promote sales, and IMO that's the real reason that there is no-bypass filtering. I don't see any significant technical advantage. Implementation of no-bypass is easy, so if there was a true advantage, it would be in more common use.

My view of it, FWIW.

[Roger]

A jet pump filtering for 4 hours a day will likely pull more water past the filter that a circulation pump running all day. A properly functioning bypass filtration system won't allow water into the footwell intake bypass spring flap during low speed pump operation.

[Spa God]

100% bypass filtration is marketing spin nothing more.

water gets filtered and returned to the spa, this mixes with the unfiltered water in either system, each time it goes through it removes more and more decreasing the total particulate in a very short period to near zero.

look in any hot tub with either system and there is no particulate in the spa, why because both systems effectively remove particulate...

Fact 100% filtration in a Hot springs spa is cheaper to make, why??? simple you dont have to buy the one or two filter cartridges that bypass systems use. you simply mount a couple of .60 cent fittings in the filter area and screw in the filter, most spas use bypass filtration and spend the extra $150-$200 per spa because they have 2 advantages

1 they filter just as well and remove all the particulate in a very short period of time and 2 they allow for better flow...

I have nothing against a Hot Springs spa, I have serviced many of them and they are well built, and the back up is solid from Watkins but the reason they cost so much has more to do with marketing spin and protected distribution than anything else. If you add up the cost of the parts on a Hot Springs spa it is the same or less in many cases than the parts to build any well built spa, the marketing, and advertising and high retail margins are why they are expensive...

[Dr. Spa]

most spas use bypass filtration and spend the extra $150-$200 per spa because they have 2 advantages

Retail cost...maybe. Wholesale quite a bit less, and get to OEM bulk pricing and you can probably knock off the last zero.

So which is REALLY more expensive, a 1 filter bypass filtration system, or a no bypass filtration system with 5 filters? (hint... more costs more)

[Spa God]

fair enough but a waterways filter housing with bypass is $398 retail for a twin system... even in bulk you are going to be well over $100 cost, on the other hand filters in bulk are $12-$14... my premise remains it is cheaper to cut out the filter housing no question...

Don't get me wrong I like Hot Springs, and there is value in buying one. The biggest reason I would give to buy one is this... It is a safe bet... and frankly unless you are an industry insider you stand very little chance of sifting through the spin and non issues and getting down to what really matters... There are quite a few brands out there in the mid price range that will be as good and even better than a Hot Springs or other expensive big marketing budget Hot tub, but it is very hard for the average consumer to find which ones they are, and there is a lot of junk out there. This forum is a perfect example, there are so many fake posters and people with bias and hidden agendas that any consumer on here is going to go away more confused than when they came here :-)

[hot_water]

most spas use bypass filtration and spend the extra $150-$200 per spa because they have 2 advantages

Retail cost...maybe. Wholesale quite a bit less, and get to OEM bulk pricing and you can probably knock off the last zero.

So which is REALLY more expensive, a 1 filter bypass filtration system, or a no bypass filtration system with 5 filters? (hint... more costs more)

Doesn't really matter, does it? Whichever costs more isn't going to matter to the OP. They just want to know if the no-bypass has merit compared to the bypass scheme. I doubt if arguing this point with the HS dealer will get them one more nickel off the price.

Bottom line, "no bypass" isn't really an advantage and cleaning/replacing all those filters is probably a disadvantage.

[Spa God]

Generally you would spend extra money on something only if it gave an advantage... if 100% filtration was better and cheaper than wouldn't everybody use it??? My point in talking about the cost was more to offer a reason why a manufacturer would uses 100% filtration... reasons one.. the spin and sales pitch reason 2 it's cheaper...

[millerdq]

The amount of filtering is strictly dependent on the quality of filters and how much DIRTY water flows through them. If we just throw a couple filters in the bottom of the spa, they have no water flow and contribute nothing. If we somehow divert only clean water through the filters, there is nothing to filter out and that contributes nothing. If we filter with a window screen, all contaminants pass through and that contributes nothing.

End of story. Now let's apply it to real life...

First, let's assume the quality of filter media is the same so that is not a variable in the discussion (about whether 100% bypass makes sense).

Second, let's also eliminate the number of filters as a variable. "Woah", you say..."can't do that because Hotsprings models have lots of filters. But, the filter in the bottom of the spa contributes nothing, right? So it's not the number of filters that matters; it's the amount of water passing through the filters. Got it.

Filter surface area is interesting. Larger surface areas provide more filtering capacity. I do agree that means the filters won't dirty as fast and you can go longer between cleanings: instead of cleaning 1 filter every week, for example, you clean 4 filters every month. That's arguably an advantage.

But more capacity also means the filter is capable of passing more gallons per minute without restricting the flow. It's very important to realize, however, that unused capacity does not add filtration. If we turn off the pumps, we still have the capacity, but we are not using it and we get no filtration. Similarly, if we use a smaller pump and suck less water through the filter, we get proportionately less filtration. The opposite is also true. If we increase the flow through the filter we get more filtration. But increasing the surface area without increasing the flow, does not improve filtration.

I hope I've convinced you that the rate of water flowing through the filters is the best variable to use when comparing filtration methods. Any influence that number of filters or filter surface area may have is completely taken into account by using flow rate.

The next most important consideration is filtration effectiveness. Low quality, contaminated or compromised filters reduce effectiveness, but since those are not really design characteristics of the spa, they apply similarly to all spas and are therefore not germane here. Others have already commented how clean water mixes with dirty as it comes back into the spa and this is true whether you have 100% non-bypass or not. (As an aside, it's interesting they've called it 100% non-bypass instead of 0% bypass, which for me is much easier to understand.)

Anyway, what is important is how well water within the spa is mixed so that all of goes through the filter. Imagine submerging a bucket inside a spa full of dirty water and start the circulation pumps to engage filtration. The water outside the bucket gets filtered much sooner the water inside the bucket because that water is not circulating through the filters. (geez, we're back to that!). Poorly designed spas may have places that act like the bucket, inhibiting the turnover of water in those areas.

You may be wondering why Hotspring spas have so many filters in their non-bypass models. The reason is because they have no bypass, they need that much capacity to accommodate the demands of the jet pumps. Otherwise, the restricted flow from a single filter would not only weaken the jets, it would soon burn out the motors.

To be fair, the extra filters do some serious filtering while the jets are running since the jet pumps are circulating all their water through the filters. However, 98% of the time only the much smaller recirculation pump is operating and the flow of water through the filters is less than most bypass spas. Unlike many bypass spas, Hotsprings recirculation pump runs 24X7, thus they use a smaller pump that doesn't move as much water and doesn't cost as much to run.

The Hotsprings strategy is continuous filtering at a lower rate, compared to bypass filtration systems that typically have scheduled filtering cycles at a higher rate. So, instead of running a small pump continuously, they run a larger pump intermittently.

One observation about the Hostprings system that I don't fully understand is their skimmer design. It appears to be ineffective when the jets are off. When the jets are off, the recirculating pump draws water from a few inches under the surface rather than over the skimmer. Hmmm... Seems to me the likely outcome might be buildup of a more predominant scum line.

At the end of the day, I believe both systems have been refined to work well, and other considerations are probably more important in dictating the choice of spa. But if your main concern is effectiveness of the filtration, you mainly need to look at one thing: the volume of water/day flowing through the filters. Unfortunately, most manufacturers and certainly most resellers are not that forthcoming about that information, often distracting you with non-responsive marketing hype. You need to be focused and persistent.

[Roger]

Not sure of your background but that was a very insightful first post.

[Dan The Spa Man]

I'll bite.

I may be counter to the trend on this thread, but if you have narrowed down your choice between two tubs and the sticking point is filtration, I believe that you need to reevaluate your decision-making process.

Not your fault: You've been presented information that tells you the need for this or that type of filtration. While its true that you need filters, cartridges wont turn green water clear or will balance your water. Water chemistry does the majority of the work, and your filter system is merely a helper. I say this while I sell a product that has a top notch filtration system. I just try to be more honest about it.

I will note that circulation pumps leave something to be desired, in my opinion. Most are an 1/8 to a 1/4 horsepower, and are widely regarded as the #1 part that fails on a hot tub. Balboa is the top control panel/power pack manufacturer out there, and to my knowledge they no longer incorporate circulation pumps. And most circulation pumps are tied to the motors and the heater, so that if/when it fails, it shuts down the other units as well until its fixed.

Again, Hot Springs and Sundance are two great brands. I just think that this argument is a tad misguided and that those in favor of one filter system over the other are not championing the types of filter systems, but rather they are championing their brand and are not being realistic as to nature of the actual importance of a filtration system.

Comfort, configuration, quality of parts used, quality of dealer & their service provided, feel of the jets, price, options/additional features/add-ons are all more important features in my experience.

However, I am just one dealer and I have no dog in this fight. (My brand is Catalina!)

Good luck moving forward.

[Roger]

I don't think the poster above was giving any advantage to either method of filtration. At least that's how I read it.

[PreservedSwine]

A scum line has very little to do with filtration, and everything to do with water chemistry. Having a larger circ pump that draws water a few inches below, or skims from, the water line, has no discernible effect on any "scum line" in thew field.

In fact, unless you're using a biguainide sanitizer, you'd be surprised at the effect filtration has on water clarity at all.

The only time you really "need" filtration, imo, is when people are in the spa. And Hot Spring does it better than anyone.

I'm a Hot Spring service rep, as well as a plethora of other nationally marketed manufacturers.

Is it worth it?

By-pass filtration can work just fine, and be perfectly adequate. In a heavy use spa, however, there is a difference. I don't think it would be a deal-breaker, I would have it a bit lower on my spa checklist, to be sure.

[Loopcity]

With no bypass, if you don't clean those filters very regularly, the flow of water is restricted through the system which will cause an error code and shut off the heater. This happens in tubs with bypass filtration as well, but the problem is magnified if the water does not have an alternate path to the heater. Ask the Hotspring guys what the most common question they ask when trouble shooting their spas over the phone is. I bet it's "when was the last time you cleaned your filters?"

Also, to the best of my knowledge, the circ pump just pulls through 1 filter in a closed loop. It is not tied into the rest of the plumbing, which means it is not circulating and injecting ozone into the water in the jet plumbing. If you don't use the tub for a few days, that water has been sitting in the plumbing the whole time. The flow rate of the circ pump is only like 9 gallons per minute, so it's effect on the body of water is minimal. I'm not 100% positive that this is accurate, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Hot Spring Ace]

With no bypass, if you don't clean those filters very regularly, the flow of water is restricted through the system which will cause an error code and shut off the heater. This happens in tubs with bypass filtration as well, but the problem is magnified if the water does not have an alternate path to the heater. Ask the Hotspring guys what the most common question they ask when trouble shooting their spas over the phone is. I bet it's "when was the last time you cleaned your filters?"

Also, to the best of my knowledge, the circ pump just pulls through 1 filter in a closed loop. It is not tied into the rest of the plumbing, which means it is not circulating and injecting ozone into the water in the jet plumbing. If you don't use the tub for a few days, that water has been sitting in the plumbing the whole time. The flow rate of the circ pump is only like 9 gallons per minute, so it's effect on the body of water is minimal. I'm not 100% positive that this is accurate, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

The no bypass system works great if you fully understand it but I sometimes see things said which are just not accurate. The circ loop is not totally closed by design. The spa is setup so a small amount of water in the plumbing lines goes through the circ line and since it runs 24/7 there is no stagnant water in the other lines. Its not common for the heater to kick out but as with all spas, you need to clean the filters to that can happen and it is not more likely with HS. The good news is the heater is on its own breaker so if it ever does kick out the pumps still run so for cold weather areas its a very smart setup to avoid freeze issues.