Diary, The Purchasse Of A Costco Tub

[Roger]

I'll be sticking around this forum so I'll be happy to keep documenting the details of our ownership.

Sandi

Thank you Sandi. You have been one of the rare owners who sticks around that realizes exactly what you have and had a crystal clear vision of what and why you bought it.

And I don't mind my name being thrown to any of my maybe not so honest to Infinity suggestions for your repair or help with other issues. I already told you....I LOVE THIS PLACE!! It's energetic. Peoples passion to money spent is amazing.

Everybody needs to remember, none of us are as smart as all of us together.

Wow that's creepy comin from me!!

[soakerguy]

I just wanted to make a comment regarding Hotspring. Hotspring offers a Solana TX for approximately $3,500 to $4,000.

It can be found here: http://www.solanaspas.com/showroom_tx.html

Costco offers a spa very similar found here and it sells for $3,500: http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?...p=C&topnav=

Not much difference if you ask me and the Hotspring comes from a dealer that services the product and delivery to you back yard. I pay $500 bucks for that.

Solana RX 4 person spa:

Seating Capacity 4 adults

Dimensions 6'6" x 33" h (1.98m x .84m h)

Water Capacity 245 gallons/927 litres

Weight 403 lbs/183 kg dry; 3,063 lbs/1,389 kg filled*

Spa Shell Pearl or Sand

Endurol® Spa Exterior Crème

Underwater Light Dimmable Blue LED Light

Splendors™ multi-color LED light is optional

Music System (Optional) Moonlight™

Jets (10 total) 1 Rotary Hydromassage Jet

3 Directional Hydromassage Jets

6 Directional Precision® Jets

Jet Pump Wavemaster® 4000

Continuous Duty 1.0 HP

Breakdown Torque 2.0 HP

Control System IQ 2020™ 115v**/15 amp (115v/30 amp optional***)

G.F.C.I. Protected Yes

Heater No-Fault®

Effective Filter Area 30 sq. ft.

Water Care (Optional) Freshwater® III Ozone

Fully Foamed Insulation Included

Floor Drain Included

Vinyl Cover

(ASTM rated) Pearl or Rust

(3.5" to 2.5" tapered, 1lb density foam core, UL classified)

Infinity spa:

*Seats: 6

*Pearl shadow acrylic

*Maintenance free synthetic cabinet-gray

*High-density foam insulation

*Double-sided Artic wrap insulation

*Neck, shoulder, & foot jets

*Interchangeable water jets

*Standard jets: 45 (stainless)

*Master massage jet: 1 (stainless)

*2-6hp GE pumps

*Ozone

*9 LED color changing light

*Comfort cushion headrest

*Handrail waterfall

*Deluxe cover: 4" - 2" taper

*5.5 KW heater

*(220V, 50 Amp GFCI breaker required

*Capacity (approx):350 gallons

*Dimensions: 78" x 84" x 36"

*Dry weight: 750 lbs.

*Filled weight: 3250 lbs.

Warranty:

10 years on structure

5 years on surface

5 years on plumbing

5 years on parts

1 year on labor

So to compare you need a spa that is bigger, more jets and features and these twp spas are not in any way close! Give me a Hotsprings spa that is the same spec wise and a price . We need to compare apples to apples which you are not.

[Roger]

So to compare you need a spa that is bigger, more jets and features and these twp spas are not in any way close! Give me a Hotsprings spa that is the same spec wise and a price . We need to compare apples to apples which you are not.

You forgot to mention one is backed by a manufacturer with a long standing reputation for building products that LAST, the other one isn't. One has about 30 bullet jets and 4-5 real jets that provide hydrotharepy, the rest...well there holes in the shell! The other has real jets, all of them. One has 2 POS 3 HP pumps. The other has a pump that has proven to last for 10 years or more. One has a morphidite plumbing system that does a fabulous job of making the GPM seem like the other which has smooth clean plumbing and makes due with 1 HP. One uses as much power as a light bulb, while the other has proven to use upwards of 100 bucks or more a month in electricity. I know you'll claim without substantiation it's allot less.

So I guess your right they aren't the same.

[soakerguy]

So to compare you need a spa that is bigger, more jets and features and these twp spas are not in any way close! Give me a Hotsprings spa that is the same spec wise and a price . We need to compare apples to apples which you are not.

You forgot to mention one is backed by a manufacturer with a long standing reputation for building products that LAST, the other one isn't. One has about 30 bullet jets and 4-5 real jets that provide hydrotharepy, the rest...well there holes in the shell! The other has real jets, all of them. One has 2 POS 3 HP pumps. The other has a pump that has proven to last for 10 years or more. One has a morphidite plumbing system that does a fabulous job of making the GPM seem like the other which has smooth clean plumbing and makes due with 1 HP. One uses as much power as a light bulb, while the other has proven to use upwards of 100 bucks or more a month in electricity. I know you'll claim without substantiation it's allot less.

So I guess your right they aren't the same.

that is your opinion Roger. My spa has been flawless as well as countless others. Why don't you compare it to Sundance Chelsea spa or a Envoy Hotsprings as you should, feature for feature and also that vast price gap that you seam to not see.

[Roger]

that is your opinion Roger. My spa has been flawless as well as countless others. Why don't you compare it to Sundance Chelsea spa or a Envoy Hotsprings as you should, feature for feature and also that vast price gap that you seam to not see.

The price gap is there for a reason. Sundance/Hot Springs are designed to last for 15+ years. Infinity is a 5-7 year throw away tub. 3-5 grand for a throw away tub that uses 3-4 times the electricity and have 5 times the problems. Or 7-9 grand. Many people choose both types and they get what they pay for.

You seem to always compare the two as equal and as long as you contiue to do that you WILL get chastizsed for it. Because the 2 aren't equal.

[soakerguy]

that is your opinion Roger. My spa has been flawless as well as countless others. Why don't you compare it to Sundance Chelsea spa or a Envoy Hotsprings as you should, feature for feature and also that vast price gap that you seam to not see.

The price gap is there for a reason. Sundance/Hot Springs are designed to last for 15+ years. Infinity is a 5-7 year throw away tub. 3-5 grand for a throw away tub that uses 3-4 times the electricity and have 5 times the problems. Or 7-9 grand. Many people choose both types and they get what they pay for.

You seem to always compare the two as equal and as long as you contiue to do that you WILL get chastizsed for it. Because the 2 aren't equal.

You cant qualify anything you have just stated as to energy usage, quality or longevity. You have admited that you have never worked on or even seen one of these spas yet you come accross as a authority on them?

[otis_skywalker]

I have a few years experience in both Sundance, Hotsprings and Infinity k/b, I can tell you that you will get a long lasting product from sundance spas, or hotsprings.

Infinity is out of bussiness for reason, I've seen those spas delivered missing parts, screws ran through plumbing lines, spa packs set up wrong from the factory, jet wall fittings loose and leaking, shells blistering in 2 years... ect...

And I have seen my fair share of sundance/hot spring issues also.. But, Not even in the same ballpark. And every one of those issues were resolved to the customers satifaction. how good is your warranty today?

The number of jets don't mean much when they are useless. 45 jets means that I bought 12 that I'm going to actually enjoy, and 33 that I can say "Oh, my hot tub got way more jets than yours". It's sales hype.

And all those HP numbers on the pumps are straight B.S. That Chelsea uses a 2.5 hp pump that will outperform that 6hp pump all day long. Why? Because, you bought 33 useless jets in an inefficiently plumbed spa. It's not really an apples to apples thing here, it's like a Lexus GS to a Kia Rio with 20" rims and 7000 watt stereo.

If your happy with your Kia, Cool... drive it untill the wheels fall off.

[soakerguy]

I have a few years experience in both Sundance, Hotsprings and Infinity k/b, I can tell you that you will get a long lasting product from sundance spas, or hotsprings.

Infinity is out of bussiness for reason, I've seen those spas delivered missing parts, screws ran through plumbing lines, spa packs set up wrong from the factory, jet wall fittings loose and leaking, shells blistering in 2 years... ect...

And I have seen my fair share of sundance/hot spring issues also.. But, Not even in the same ballpark. And every one of those issues were resolved to the customers satifaction. how good is your warranty today?

The number of jets don't mean much when they are useless. 45 jets means that I bought 12 that I'm going to actually enjoy, and 33 that I can say "Oh, my hot tub got way more jets than yours". It's sales hype.

And all those HP numbers on the pumps are straight B.S. That Chelsea uses a 2.5 hp pump that will outperform that 6hp pump all day long. Why? Because, you bought 33 useless jets in an inefficiently plumbed spa. It's not really an apples to apples thing here, it's like a Lexus GS to a Kia Rio with 20" rims and 7000 watt stereo.

If your happy with your Kia, Cool... drive it untill the wheels fall off.

Actually we are comparing a box of hot water with a few pumps and jets. nothing more. We are not talking about cars or anything else. I don't see the value if a three year old Hotsprings or a Sundance spa being any more then any other make in Craigslist or the for sale adds in the local papers.

If the jets and pumps don't mean much then why would the higher end Hotsprings spas and Sundance spas contain more jets and multiple pumps? If thats the case then why doesn't Hotsprings use the same 2.5 hp pump from the Chelsea in the Grandee? They know better and use multiple pumps and have 39 jets rather then the 12 that you say are good enough. Evidently Hotsprings nor Sundance does not agree with your mantra . The consumers like myself and many others agree that more pumps and jets area good thing and so does every spa manufacturer around but i guess that's all sales hype right?

[Roger]

If the jets and pumps don't mean much then why would the higher end Hotsprings spas and Sundance spas contain more jets and multiple pumps? If thats the case then why doesn't Hotsprings use the same 2.5 hp pump from the Chelsea in the Grandee? They know better and use multiple pumps and have 39 jets rather then the 12 that you say are good enough. Evidently Hotsprings nor Sundance does not agree with your mantra . The consumers like myself and many others agree that more pumps and jets area good thing and so does every spa manufacturer around but i guess that's all sales hype right?

Now I'm lost....oh well. Soaker you seem like the kinda guy that will buy 3 of something your whole life and think they are all the same while your neighbor owned one.

[Chas]

People -

The title of this thread is "Diary, The Purchase Of A Costco Tub." I would think that would let us know what the post is about, and help us stay on task. A person bought a tub at Costco, and they are posting about the experience. I find that to be valuable, useful information on a board like this, and I would ask that we keep other topics in other threads.

I hope the spa works well for you - I know you had trouble with one some years back - but owning a hot tub can be a great addition to any home. Enjoy it, and please keep us posted as time goes by.

[Matt87109]

Due to several private message requesting I continue, the diary lives on:

The tub was delivered Last Thursday, or a couple weeks after placing my order. I had a friend bring over a pallet jack and with the help of the delivery guy (don't expect them to help I was just lucky) and his pallet jack we rolled the tub into my back yard on two pallet jacks with no problems. I gave the delivery guy a tip for his effort. If I was doing this again I'd get two friends and two pallet jacks with two sheets of plywood or OSB to get across soft spots in the yard.

The tub was strapped and wrapped with cardboard/thin foam on a pallet, so it arrived with no damage and in good shape. The cover was in a separate box.

Over the weekend I built a thin "pallet" using synthetic deck boards by laying down the 8ftx5.25x1 long boards on 1ft pitch and then laying additional boards across the first set with about 1/2 spacing in between. This created a very nice lifted surface for water run off. Previously I had a tub directly on concrete and didn't like it. I had one other friend help me lower the 600# tub onto the pallet. After it was down the abs bottom allowed it to slide around easily for repositioning.

My first impression of the tub was that I was very happy with the aesthetics and lay out. Being a low cost tub, it does not have diverter valves and air valves, so as far as controls is pretty simple. I removed one of the jets by turning it counter clock wise with easy. The jets are designed so you can almost turn them off allowing you to redirect pressure to a particular seat if need be. Opening them all the way causes bubbles to form similar to an air valve. When they are half way off the pressure is about the same, but there are no bubbles.

I pulled the sides off the tub and discovered a brown paper that was used as a backing (foam sprayed inbetween shell and paper) when the foam insulation was sprayed in. It appears to be approximately three or four inches thick or more in most places, but there are a few places were it is thinner around equipment. I was quite pleased with the amount of insulation I observed. The cover is 4" thick near the center and tapers off to 2.5 inches at the ends.

I noted that the frame was typical 2x construction that was fabricated from treated wood.

After the tub was in place I set a treated post in the ground, installed the disconnect box, and hooked up the 50amp GFCI breaker with the help of an electrician friend. We had already run 6ga wire from the house panel so it took about two hours. We ran the last 15ft with 8ga copper wire between the disconnect and tub.

Before we turned on the juice, we filled the tub with water through the filter port. When we turned on the power the tub ran the pump (apparently for five min. before it kicks on the heater). It took a bit of messing around for about twenty seconds and bleeding the air out of the pump head before the water started to flow....not a big deal.

Opening the equipment side of the spa reveled as expected, entry level spa equipment including:

1 ge motor w/ pump

1 balboa spa pack with flow through 5.5kw heater (simple 4button control up top)

1 balboa CD chip ozonator

2 gate valves

2" plumbing

The 4-button control up top allows switching between standard, economy, and sleep mode.

The specifications online have been updated to reflect what I suspected, that the tub is about 200 gallons, not 300. This was fine by me. The heater took about 2-3 hours getting up to 100 degrees.

After installing the cover lifter and cover lock latches it was done. I then started messing with chemicals.

Basically it arrived quickly, was not damaged, included all the parts, and was exactly what I envisioned. The set up was what I expected and went without issue. I was pleased to see industry branded components and plenty of insulation.

I've used the tub the last two nights for a total of one hour. The seats are comfortable, the jets are surprisingly adequate, and the layout of each seat seems to work a different part of my back. I enjoy being in this tub! The Hot Spring tub is certainly the most intense of all the tubs I tested (beachcomber, marquis, hotsprings), but this tub compares nicely to the marquis and beachcomber from a wet testing perspective. In fact I found myself wanting to escape the high pressure in the Hot Spring. I certainly love the Hot Spring Moto message.

I noted that the heater was capable of raising the temperature of the water while the tub was on high with ambient conditions of approximately 65F.

The only thing that I could complain about is that it's louder on high speed due to pump noise than I would like. It's not waking the neighbors up, but it makes some noise. When in the tub you don't notice it over the water noise if that gives you a qualitative example.

72 hours with water in it and no signs of leaks. I'll pull all the sides off in two weeks and check again.

Now that the tub has arrived and their quality control appears to have got the tub to me in working condition, the real question is will the insulation prove to be as effective as it appears it will be, and how long will it last. Since it has balboa parts I know I can likely get parts to fix the tub if I need.

As of right now I'm extremely happy that I did not spend twice as much on a better tub, as this one looks like it will satisfy my requirements nicely.

I'll report again if I have a problem or in a few months.

[Matt87109]

I have now had the tub running for one month. I'm using Nitro/Chem Geek's Chlorine method and am very happy.

I have used the tub about 27 out of the last 30 days for approximately thirty minutes.

This tub continues to be exactly what I wanted/needed with no defects.

[dummary]

I have now had the tub running for one month. I'm using Nitro/Chem Geek's Chlorine method and am very happy.

I have used the tub about 27 out of the last 30 days for approximately thirty minutes.

This tub continues to be exactly what I wanted/needed with no defects.

So, Matt, how much has your tub added to your electric bill so far? I realize that we may be in very different climates etc, but as another person considering a Costco tub, it would be helpful...

Thanks!

[imnay]

I can't believe I have no life and read through all the posts that had nothing to do with the intent of the originator forum member.

Silly me, I'm looking forward to following the continuing story.

[Fatlip]

So whats te latest update, we have been waiting?

Thanks for doing this.

Rick

[sandi]

So whats te latest update, we have been waiting?

Thanks for doing this.

Rick

I don't have this particular spa but purchased an Infinity Sunpeak 6-person spa from Costco in July 0f 2007. Two years later, it's running fine, we have had no problems, and we're still satisfied with our purchase. When/if we do have trouble with it, I'll contact Costco's customer service since Infinity is now out of business.

Sandi

[Matt87109]

Original Poster Update:

It how now been four months of use. I am still very happy. In fact I'm thrilled at how simple this tub is because it does exactly what I want and it does it well. Electricity usage is impossible to quantify because I have changed so many things (add square footage, add A/C changes, add hot tub, add new family member, add permanent guest). All things considered my electric bills does not indicate I have a huge hog on the line, but I can't really tell you for sure...... plus it's summer. Upon inspection I noted that my tub has plenty of insulation. The cover is also thick. I specifically bought a tub that indicated full foam insulation and would not buy a costco tub that indicated otherwise.

I'm going to venture to say that even if I have to have this thing fixed several times, I still won't be disappointed.

Thumbs up!

[Knucklez]

hi matt,

i really appreciate your diary. i am thinking of purchasing a hottub through costco, so this thread is really helpful for me. i am still in the VERY early stages of my research, but this website seems like a great place to get started.

thx for your time & postings,

Knucklez

[Matt87109]

hi matt,

i really appreciate your diary. i am thinking of purchasing a hottub through costco, so this thread is really helpful for me. i am still in the VERY early stages of my research, but this website seems like a great place to get started.

thx for your time & postings,

Knucklez

You're welcome Knucklez. Do your research and consider the advice you read on this forum. I would just shy away from generalized bashing with opinions based on psudo-statistics like "everybody that buys a costco tub has problems"..... sure many that come here do, but how many is that in relation to how many they sell?...... get my point? Besides I think most people don't have any desire to get on the internet and talk about how great their hot tub is like we do, particularly if they didn't over pay

I'm sure some of the manufacturers are junk as the dealer advocates state, but I like my OC - Calspa just fine.

For me the big costco question mark was insulation. I got the calspa made tub and it has plenty of insulation. Other things they do to get the cost down is less lighting and no diverted valves, all things I don't care about, but maybe you do. At least in my tub this is what I observed. I am so glad I did not spend 7k on a tub.

I previously had a tub from costco that I returned. It was supposedly made by Sundance/Jacuzzi. It had an internal leak that messed up the inside badly after one month. No problems were evident until the level built up and it started running out (fully sealed abs pan). I called costco and they took care of it 100%. Some have complained that costco did not return their call immediately or that they were put on hold. When I returned my tub I was patient and they took care of it solid. In fact one of the reasons I bought a costco tub AGAIN is they were the ONLY place that I felt I could trust.

That reminds me, it's time for my soak. Good luck.

[n1oty]

hi matt,

i really appreciate your diary. i am thinking of purchasing a hottub through costco, so this thread is really helpful for me. i am still in the VERY early stages of my research, but this website seems like a great place to get started.

thx for your time & postings,

Knucklez

You're welcome Knucklez. Do your research and consider the advice you read on this forum. I would just shy away from generalized bashing with opinions based on psudo-statistics like "everybody that buys a costco tub has problems"..... sure many that come here do, but how many is that in relation to how many they sell?...... get my point? Besides I think most people don't have any desire to get on the internet and talk about how great their hot tub is like we do, particularly if they didn't over pay

I'm sure some of the manufacturers are junk as the dealer advocates state, but I like my OC - Calspa just fine.

For me the big costco question mark was insulation. I got the calspa made tub and it has plenty of insulation. Other things they do to get the cost down is less lighting and no diverted valves, all things I don't care about, but maybe you do. At least in my tub this is what I observed. I am so glad I did not spend 7k on a tub.

I previously had a tub from costco that I returned. It was supposedly made by Sundance/Jacuzzi. It had an internal leak that messed up the inside badly after one month. No problems were evident until the level built up and it started running out (fully sealed abs pan). I called costco and they took care of it 100%. Some have complained that costco did not return their call immediately or that they were put on hold. When I returned my tub I was patient and they took care of it solid. In fact one of the reasons I bought a costco tub AGAIN is they were the ONLY place that I felt I could trust.

That reminds me, it's time for my soak. Good luck.

Please bear in mind that the pro's on this board, and on other board's, do not engage in generalized bashing nor are our opinions based on pseudo-statistics. As others like Roger have mentioned, this "diary" can have merit once it has accumulated 5 or 6 years of posting. Unfortunately, many folks make purchase decisions based on cost or on short term ownership stories such as this one, not on long term ownership goals.

Frankly, as an independent service company, it warms my heart and lines my pockets having this flood of cheaply made tubs come on the market. Why? Because no one will go through the hassle to return a tub to Costco (or any other big box merchant) for the sake of a repair that will cost them a few hundred dollars. I have customers who routinely pay for motor replacements or heater replacements because they had a failure due to low cost, crappy components. And there are a LOT of these types of repairs with these tubs specifically because they use low quality, cheap motors and heaters. Ask any pro on this board about how many plain steel heater elements with tiny o-rings that seal the bulkhead area of the heater tube that he's had to replace on these cheap tubs and he'll probably tell you it is one of his bread-and-butter repairs. It is for me. How many of these cheap heaters have failed due to galvanic corrosion at the bulkhead as compared to failures in a quality heater.

I've been in the hot tub, sauna and pool heater repair business for 25 years, having started in the fall of 1984. I've seen this industry change a lot over the years, with the move to big-box store retailing having the most deleterious effect on quality, as the merchants squeeze the manufacturers for more and more price drops. I call it the Wal-Mart effect. And the manufacturers have responded in the only way they can with ever cheaper components and construction methods. For someone like myself who will only own quality, it has been very sad to watch, but as a result, I also have no sympathy for the customer as they moan about the cost of repair. For it is ultimately the consumer who is responsible for this state of affairs. The merchants and manufacturers know the buying public better than the buying public knows themselves. For now, the average consumer is quite willing to convince themselves that somehow these big-box sold tubs are nearly as good in quality as some of the brands that are generally considered better by the pro's. Even in the face of multiple pro's on this board cautioning otherwise, many folks (yourself included) are willing to dismiss the collective experiences of the pro's as bashing. So be it.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to make my money.

For the record, I have a 1989 Jacuzzi Vectra II that is outdoors and has been in continuous operation for 20 years. In that time, I have had one motor failure (at 7 years), a heater element went open (16 years) and I've replaced the flow switch a couple of times. That's it. I fully expect this tub to last another 20 years. Yes, quality tubs can last that long. It is amazing just how inexpensive a quality tub actually is when amortized over the life of the tub. Also for the record, I do not sell tubs and I never have sold tubs. I only fix them. I work for some factories as a direct warranty servicer and as an independent for numerous dealers in my area, so I have no axe to grind regarding any specific brand. If anything, my advice here, if followed by everyone, would probably result in less work for me. I guess I'm lucky that no one wants to listen to me!!!

So, let's compare service histories when your tub hits 20 years of age.

John

[Roger]

generalized bashing with opinions based on psudo-statistics like "everybody that buys a costco tub has problems".....

You should enjoy your first few years of soaking. Our "psudo-statistics" will bet money on your tubs ultimate demise in a few years. I wonder if your inexperience will take that bet?

[reeffreak]

So, let's compare service histories when your tub hits 20 years of age.

John

I don't think the typical shopper looking for a pricepoint tub is buying with a 20 yr outlook. Let's face it, after 5-6 years, ALL of these tubs are worth $1k on craigslist, whether you're buying a $15k top-of-the-line, or a Costco special. So the amortization arguments are just a little off- residual value of the tub is in play here. At end of life, if the low $$ tub is in the landfill, you've not lost a whole lot of cash.

I have relatives that are IRT's in the HVAC industry. Their view of value is all about serviceability and longevity. It makes sense- that's what they think about all day long. And we see a lot of that on this forum. But for the consumer, the value equation is different. I don't buy anything at Costco that I expect to last 10 yr, much less 20. And if the industry is really building premium tubs that last this long and remain in service- you're selling yourself short. There should be technology, features, efficiency, etc. that render a tub obsolete and ready for the landfill long before 20 years. Translation: you sell another unit.

These premium versus value arguments are pointless. There is a market for both. The IRT's on the board can continue to digg the big box tubs at every opportunity- often rightly so. The real risk is when the big box folks figure out how to build and sell quality - and they're not going away. Imports will play here. Have a look at the domestic auto industry. Even the Koreans are turning out decent product now at every pricepoint. The challenge for the mfg's is to adapt in this transition, and figure out why consumers shop big box (hint: It's not all price).

[n1oty]

So, let's compare service histories when your tub hits 20 years of age.

John

I don't think the typical shopper looking for a pricepoint tub is buying with a 20 yr outlook. Let's face it, after 5-6 years, ALL of these tubs are worth $1k on craigslist, whether you're buying a $15k top-of-the-line, or a Costco special. So the amortization arguments are just a little off- residual value of the tub is in play here. At end of life, if the low $$ tub is in the landfill, you've not lost a whole lot of cash.

I have relatives that are IRT's in the HVAC industry. Their view of value is all about serviceability and longevity. It makes sense- that's what they think about all day long. And we see a lot of that on this forum. But for the consumer, the value equation is different. I don't buy anything at Costco that I expect to last 10 yr, much less 20. And if the industry is really building premium tubs that last this long and remain in service- you're selling yourself short. There should be technology, features, efficiency, etc. that render a tub obsolete and ready for the landfill long before 20 years. Translation: you sell another unit.

These premium versus value arguments are pointless. There is a market for both. The IRT's on the board can continue to digg the big box tubs at every opportunity- often rightly so. The real risk is when the big box folks figure out how to build and sell quality - and they're not going away. Imports will play here. Have a look at the domestic auto industry. Even the Koreans are turning out decent product now at every pricepoint. The challenge for the mfg's is to adapt in this transition, and figure out why consumers shop big box (hint: It's not all price).

I disagree that amortization arguments are not meaningful. The majority of hot tub purchasers do not make a buying decision with the thought in the back of their mind that they will ultimately turn this over on Craigslist and fret about residual value. The average hot tub is not easily installed, de-installed or moved. The majority of folks run the tub until its not worth repairing anymore.

My tub has now cost me $200 for each year of ownership, plus the repair and operating expenses. In today's dollars, my tub would be equivalent to what is being sold in the $8000 range, so a 20 year ownership equates to $400 per year ownership costs now. Compare that amount to the customer I had last week with a three year old Keys Backyard hot tub whose frame literally fell apart, resulting in enough settling to damage the vessel and crack a lot of plumbing. Trust me, he won't sell that on Craigslist. So, his three year old purchase just amortized out to just under $2000 per year plus prior repairs and operating costs. And let's not forget that he now has the hassle of having that one disposed of, purchasing a replacement and installing it. He will have to completely rewire from the house because of code changes since this installation occurred.

No, there are distinct advantages to having a tub that lasts a long time.

As regards the foreign hot tubs, the Chinese made stuff in particular (I've worked on some), some of which showed up on Ebay the past couple of years. Every one that I've seen does not comply with UL1563 and is not certified by either UL or ETL, which makes them illegal to install in any state that has incorporated the NEC into law by regulation (See Article 110.3 in its entirety). Many states do. The homeowner and installing electrician run a grave risk in such cases should there be a catastrophic event such as a fire or electrocution. I always have the homeowner sign a waiver prior to working on uncertified tubs whereby they acknowledge that I have informed them that they have an uncertified tub and that its continued use by the customer may be illegal.

John

[reeffreak]

As regards the foreign hot tubs, the Chinese made stuff in particular (I've worked on some), some of which showed up on Ebay the past couple of years. Every one that I've seen does not comply with UL1563 and is not certified by either UL or ETL, which makes them illegal to install in any state that has incorporated the NEC into law by regulation (See Article 110.3 in its entirety). Many states do. The homeowner and installing electrician run a grave risk in such cases should there be a catastrophic event such as a fire or electrocution. I always have the homeowner sign a waiver prior to working on uncertified tubs whereby they acknowledge that I have informed them that they have an uncertified tub and that its continued use by the customer may be illegal.

John

My assertion is that the imports will eventually get it right. They enter the market with low priced crap. Then they build better and better products, eventually eclipsing that of the onshore mfg's. We'll see the shift from the "crap" phase to the "pretty good stuff" phase one day. Maybe we're seeing it now. It's very predictable, has shuttered dozens of onshore industries, and has gutted our nation's ability to produce.

This is where I think Strong (i.e. Costco Evolution) has done something interesting. They've scrapped the wood frame concept in favor of a rotomold process (read high volume, cheap, minimal labor, sturdy). It's ideas like this, coupled with inexpensive offshore labor and an ultra-efficient big box supply chain that will create a commodity market. I don't know Keys, Infinity, etc. because I'm not a hot tub guy. But when I look at what Costco has on the market today, they're mainly selling Calspa (which I'd regard as a neutral brand on this forum), and Strong (which has been slammed PURELY on guilt by association with Costco's "former" brands, despite the fact that they seem to have been built with components acceptable in this forum in other entry level spas (Balboa VS, Waterway 56 frame pumps, etc.).

I respect the experience and opinions on this board. I think the IRT's will always have spas to work on. But some of the critiques of the current big-box offerings are silly, and the attacks of folks that simply want to share their experiences are juvenile. These are your CUSTOMERS.

The question is, when the big box stores prove they can bring a Lexus to the market at a Toyota price, are you going to welcome them?

And you're telling me there are no technology, efficiency, or style differences between a 20yr old Jac and a new $8k tub made today? That tells me there is no innovation, and makes globalization with the new ideas it brings that much more of a risk.

[Dr. Spa]

Couple problems there.

1. It's unlikely there's really enough spa business for the imports to make much of a go at it. And as shipping costs continue to rise, it's even more unlikely.

2. The rotomold process is quite slow at making a shell, and the molds are VERY expensive...make that very Very VERY expensive.

A lot of the furniture in my home is over 100 years old. If I had the room, I'd have a 1950's wedgewood stove.

Technology differences? Sure there are. In today's spas, when a relay goes out, you replace a $400 circuit board. In a 20 year old spa when a relay goes out, you replace a $20 relay. Efficiency? Not really. Well built older spas tend to be built better (labor was cheaper back then)...kind of like old houses. No one builds craftsman style homes these days...unless you want to pay through the nose. Style? What is style? Style is what YOU like....or what the marketing executives TELL YOU you like...besides, keep it long enough, and it'll come back into style