reeffreak

That is clearly a female elbow fitting, and the flex is clearly smaller than the elbow. Looks to me like a pvc nipple inside the flex as strain relief to better support the joint. Clamp wouldn't help b/c the seal is between the outside of the flex and the inside of the elbow.

IMHO I'd either go ahead and start it up and get it hot, OR wait until you get back to fill it- especially if you are in an area where it's already dipping below freezing. You don't want cold water in the tub to freeze and bust something while you're away. If you plan to go the empty route (and it's cold where you live).... Check with the mfg to make sure they're comfortable with the tub sitting empty for a few days- they most likely leak test the tub at the plant, and they need to be confident that there isn't any residual water in the tub that could freeze up and bust something.

I really like the idea that you can soak with the lid down. It gives bathing suit options that I frankly don't have the confidence to try with my outdoor setup . I am worried that what appears to be floor materials and caulk will not last very long. FYI, the in ground vinyl pool mfg's will build a liner to your specs that is engineered for your application. They aren't that expensive, especially compared to flood restoration $$. Or look into an epoxyglass layup finished with a good 2-part epoxy paint. This is how some of the larger coral propogators build ginormous plywood aquariums.

Check this one out..

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HW- At risk of going off topic and actually adding something of substance to the thread.. My spa is not a strong, but similar Waterway exec pump and VS controller... The main pump failed in the first couple of months (bad capacitor). The tech replaced with a Waterway Ex2, which had a good bit more power at same labeled amperage. Flow diagrams of the exec vs ex2 are online. You could prob swap the wet end for not a lot of $$.

There are two issues here that folks aren't used to (and are driving the responses to the thread)... 1. If you only use the tub a couple of times / wk, it might make economic sense to heat on demand and not worry about the insulation. Most people keep their tubs hot all the time on this board (but there probably IS an economic argument to do exactly what you're doing from some usage patterns) 2. If the costs of LPG and/or Natural Gas is cheaper than the an equivalent amount of electric, given energy costs where you live, it makes sense to do the gas thing. It's rare that it works out that way in the US though. More on issue #1. A well insulated tub shouldn't cost much more than $10/wk in electricity that you're estimating as gas costs- to keep it warm all the time. And with the tropical plants I see on your patio I'm guessing that it doesn't get that cold wherever you are. But the costs of getting that insulation in that tub are probably more than the value of the tub itself. You're talking about 3-400 for a good cover, and more than that for a foam fill of the entire cavity (look for spray foam insulation contractors and get a quote to fill the whole cavity except for the area right around the motors / control equipment). More on issue #2. If you're interested in evaluating your energy decision further, it's more precise to look at it in terms of the physics of the energy that it takes to heat a given amount of water, and compare relative costs of different methods to provide that energy (electric, gas, etc.). This would give you a much better perspective than anecdotal observations on how many bottles of LPG you are using. I'm still skeptical that LPG is cheaper (and/or your ROI on the setup will take a very long time), but what you're telling me in terms of energy costs suggest that from a physics perspective the reltative costs are probably about the same or maybe favor a gas approach slightly. The reason you're saving money is because the insulation (mentioned in #1) is so poor that you're losing heat because the electric heater can barely overcome the loss of the tub from lack of insulation. Or to put it another way, You're "nuking" the tub with your gas setup to get it to temp FAST, and it rapidly cools due to lack of insulation. You could probably have done the same thing with a massive (10-15KW) electric heater, and enjoyed similar savings. Or you could have insulated the whole thing and saved the same amount of $$. So what you did was creative, and works well for your use case.. But is fairly unconventional b/c most folks go for the insulation route and just don't worry about it. Hope this helps.

congrats on your new hot tub- enjoy it! I am going to skip through some of the math and give you the answer.. A 20lb bottle of propane commonly filled to 18lb holds the equivalent of 110 KWh of electric heating potential (expressed in BTU equivalents, assuming both are 100% efficient). That 20Lb bottle is $20-$25 if you buy a Blue Rhino exchange, probably $15 if you have it refilled yourself at a station. Assuming $4/gal. That is the equiv of $0.18/KWh, assuming that 100% of the heat from that $20 bottle makes it to your tub's water column (which it won't). I pay $.09/KWh, so for me your solution would be 2x as expensive even if I captured every single BTU. I'd be curious what the flue efficiency of your water heater is (I think most tankless are 75%).. Assuming no losses through the garden hose setup you have, this means 25% of the heat you are producing goes up the water heater chimney. Which makes the electrical equivalent somewhere around $.24/KWh. Well above the Nat'l Average. For all practical purposes, electrical heating is 99-100% efficient in a hot tub application. Negligible loss there. So you are heating your tub faster, but you likely aren't saving any money, unless you get propane for very low $$ or your electricity is very high $$. Where you WILL save some money is by putting some insulation in that tub.

The logic behind my markup claim is that whatever "smoking deal" a cash and carry consumer can get is still more than the wholesale cost of the spa to the dealers. Otherwise the factory is undercutting the dealer sales model and/or you'd see dealers selling the blems as markdowns and there would not be a factory direct-to-consumer option. So you can assume that the wholesale to retail markup is higher than any direct option, possibly substantially so. This is part of the reason why spas, motorcycles, furniture, good bicycles, etc. have such a low trade-in value. It is more profitable for the merchant to acquire new product from the factory than to consign and/or resell used product. If you study any retail model (especially those that are sales commission based), you'll see that my markup claims are in line. High end furniture is another great example. $25k of brand-name furniture at a commissioned, reputable dealer is about $8k wholesale. That is not saying that the consumer is getting ripped off, it means that the value prop of full service, after-sale support has costs.

For a short period a couple of years ago, there were some dealer invoices circulating that showed an appx 80-100% markup for a major brand of value line spas (less freight). This was shut down pretty quick on the net. Before totally freaking out about getting hosed as a consumer, note this is in-line with low volume high $$ product in most retail settings selling discretionary product.. Be it furniture, hot tubs, aquariums, bicycles, high end home theater, etc. It takes that kind of margin to keep the employees paid, doors open, and the lights on. There is also a spa factory near me that sells customer direct / on Craigslist right off the factory floor.. I have compared factory direct prices (cash and carry) against retail internet sellers.. Assuming they don't undercut their dealers and sell direct somewhere between wholesale and retail, the near 100% markup holds true here too. So to answer your original question, I'm going to put the bookends of the cost of that $10k tub somewhere between $4-6k dealer cost + shipping + whatever accessories and startup services the dealer chooses to throw in. Nobody is getting rich with that markup though.

Bob, I answered your question in my very first reply. I don't know how you missed that in chopping every post up for a line by line rebuttal. I'll make it easier on you to quote me.. Yes, a carbon block filter will remove excess bromine based sanitizer from your water. I said that yesterday. However, like the rest of this thread it is a solution looking for a problem. I can tell you are a guy who likes to tinker. That is very cool. Your tinkering has solved a problem a problem for you- maybe your "problem" was the existing filter is busted, and your goal was to build a filter with parts from Home Depot. Maybe you had the stuff lying around and just wanted to play. Maybe you are trying to revolutionize water filtration technology in hot tubs. Whatever your problem/goal was doesn't really matter, but don't come on the net trying to defend your brand new solution as better in every way. You are taking an idea a couple of days old and confronting decades of industry best practice. If this idea had mass appeal, the manufactures would be using this approach already. Because it's cheaper, better, easier, etc.. For some reason they haven't. We are giving you suggestions why. Back to the carbon.. It is an inefficient, expensive way to do remove excess sanitizer. You would be quicker and/or save $$ with a partial water change, or leave the cover off to let the sun get to it, or neutralize with sodium thiosulfate (or maybe even household peroxide- our chemistry experts would know). Or you could just tee tee in your tub. Good luck, I am back to lurking.

Your initial question and follow-ups reveal that you are either unaware of, or ignoring the significant engineering and design differences between tap water and pool/spa filtration concepts. So I say go for the carbon block filter. It removes bad stuff from your tap water, so it must be better for your spa. And regarding your filter rating... 10 micron is good. 5 micron is better. 1 micron is best. Find the most effective filter you can get your hands on. If there is a 0.1 micron cartridge that will fit your cans, that would be ideal. Be sure to add a couple of cans of deionizing resin to the system to bring the TDS of your water absolutely to zero to have the most effective filter possible. And a can or two of dessicant will help too.. Because nothing in your system will remove that pesky di-hydrogen monoxide that even the best water filtration technologies won't get. Inhale a cup or two of that stuff and it will kill you. Be sure to post back results.

If I am hearing you correctly, you are using a drinking water purification system as part of a hot tub filtration system? If so, understand that a whole house system is designed for a single pass application, it is not going to work for very long on a hot tub.. Here is some math... 10k gallons/month whole house usage, 6 month life of these filters = 60k gallons life purifying mostly clean water. Your 24 hr circ pump system, guessing @ 3 gallons / min would move the equivalent water through these filters in 333 hours, or exhaust and/or clog the media somewhere around 14 days. You are trying to use a filter technology that just isn't appropriate for the application. Regarding your chlorine filter- that is a carbon block filter, which would capture organics, including bromine or most other sanitizers. Very bad idea there. You will quickly exhaust the media fighting sanitizer levels topside, then the filter will be doing nothing but restricting flow. What is wrong with built in / standard filtration in your tub?

Dr Spa, Spa_Guru, have a beer. You're both right. Dr Spa is showing line to neutral readings on a 3 phase 240v delta [stinger] circuit. Spa_Guru, you are showing line to line on a 3 phase circuit without a stinger leg. Both are used in different parts of the country. Non stinger circuits will show line to line of +/- 208v because the line to line legs are 120 degree offset, not 180 degrees like a single phase household circuit. That's why you can't add the leg voltage to get 240 volts. you'll get 1.78x the leg voltage when you go leg to leg (working from memory here- look it up). With that out of the way, and to bring an idea that the OP can acutally use.. Wellspring: Pay the current owner $20 to fill the tub up and let it sit overnight. If you have freeze damage, you're prob going to see water on the ground the next day around the tub. If that's the case, cut your loss and let the owner pay for a haul off. If not, I'd feel better taking a chance with it if I were you. The electrical guts can be replaced DIY if you're up to it. Plumbing repair is where the PITA will be. Hope all this helps.

fitness mats (without holes in them) like what you'd find at a sporting goods store / target / wallie world.

Search "equipotential bonding grid hot tub" on google. Enforced in some jurisdictions now. Highly, HIGHLY unlikely your patio was bonded when poured. An alternative to the bonding grid that will pass in some jurisdictions is to use 1/2" or thicker rubber mats around the perim of the spa where there is a finished walkway (e.g. concrete, pavers, etc.) to prevent a grounding differential as your guests step out of the tub. Or build a wooden / triax deck / stair structure around the tub. You can decide for yourself if you want those mats to cover up your beautiful stamped concrete.. Of course after the inspector is gone .

What is the foam density? I'd be worried I'm getting a 1# density cover which will raise my utlility bill. Covers routinely last more than 3 years so that "bumper to bumper" warranty doesn't wow me. Shop your other choices and compare, the best deal often isn't the one with the lowest up front cost. Not much detail on the Costco website or the ordering web site. Meets all ASTM safety standards Rugged 30 oz. marine grade vinyl top Tapered Virgin Foam Insulation: 4" - 2": Allows moisture/rain/snow to drift off the cover eliminating a “pooling” issue that many flat covers encounter 6 mil double-ply poly-laminate underneath Exclusive moisture lock heat seal Sturdy, four layer hinge #93 Dacron Polyester, UV thread throughout Super-strength recessed handles 37 different stress point reinforcements 20 gauge steel, non-corrosive reinforced center bar Locking, extra strong tie-down straps Cold crack tested down to -20F Hidden zipper design and corrosion resistant Mildew and UV inhibitors Grommeted drain holes Premium commercial grade skirt with custom made split corners to seal the heat in and protect shell Warranty: 3 year (bumper to bumper). NON-PRO RATED. DK117 Talking points look identical to: http://www.hottubworks.com/SpaCovers/SpaCoverFeatures.php

Welcome to the board. Short answer: Yes. Just like you can have your car serviced by a 3rd party dealer without affecting the warranty (as long as such service does not give rise to the claim itself, i.e. improper repairs). For the legal basis, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act. Now, I don't know that this solves the dilemma for you though.. If you're dis-satisfied with after-the-sale service of the dealer (for routine maintenance/non warranty repair), you're really going to be put off when you DO need a warranty repair and have to work with the dealer. Many spa brands have exclusive sale/service territories, and the warranty service is goign to be that much worse than regular service because the $$ margin on warranty work will be less than retail service work. So you'll be stuck in the relationship. if I were you, I'd stop planning to patronize a dealer that sucks, and figuring out how to work around their poor service. Find a dealer that gets clean reviews (BBB is a good resource), or if you're DIY, look into good used deals on Craigslist, or some of the big box retailers- skip the dealer altogether (if you must have a tub and can't find one you trust). Hope this helps!

filter cycles aside my first questions would be re: the parts in bold above...if chemicals are "on target" why would you have floating scum in the spa? and by on target do you mean just TA, pH, and Calcium Hardness or are you including your sanitizer as being on target as well? Reason I ask is because rule of thumb is, if the water is stinky, cloudy, slimy it usually relates to low or no sanitizer in the water (not always but usually) With the exception of a few cases where I've let the total bromine get to 0 (2 days within the last 30) the TBr, TA, pH, and CH have been relatively good. My recent measurements over the last 3 days have been... TBr TA pH CH 10 80 7.6 100 10 80 7.6 100 5 40 7.6 100 Ever since I filled the spa, the CH levels have been at 100 and haven't moved. Neither has the pH level of 7.6. About 3 days ago I shocked with Brominating Concentrate (Sodium Bromide) to get the TBr levels up. I figured some of the scum was caused by the TBr levels dropping but I was hoping the filtering, along with sanitizer, would help clear that up - it hasn't yet. I'm also beginning to think my weir skimmer is floating too high and the filter suction isn't enough to pull it down during the filter cycle. Is it possible to get air bubbles inside the weir assembly such that it floats higher than it should? The skimming system on a tub is only there to remove floating particulate matter (leaves, hair, lint, etc.). Scum is accumulation of dissolved organics on the surface of the water. I bet when you turn the jets on with air, you get some nasty film / bubbles. This is because you are greatly increasing the surface area of the water by adding billions of bubbles that carry the dissolved organics in your water to the surface. This is called protein skimming in aquarium / pond hobbies. What you need is better sanitation, NOT better filtration / surface skimming. I'm not a chemistry expert, but I'm taking a clue from your shocking comment above. Bromine in a hot tub is useful when it's in the form of hypobromous acid. It is the addition of an oxidizer (NOT adding more bromine) that generally makes this form available in a tub. The oxidizer is typically either MPS or a form of chlorine. If you aren't adding one of these (and your note above says you're "shocking" with "brominating concentrate" so I worry), you probably haven't shocked your tub sufficiently to burn off the scum. I'd study up on bromine sanitation methods, and the role that an oxidizer plays.. That will probably solve your problem. It has nothing to do with "better" tub or design as Roger pointed out. This is pure chemistry. Enjoy your new tub!

It's a strategy to increase market share or sell through alternate brands without creating a consumer perception of competition.. Just like Evolution : Costco :: Strong : Dealer. Or Ford/Lincoln/Mercury GMC/Chevy Sears Craftsman etc.

Dutch- help me with the kwh cost- Is the 16,53 euro ct / kwh = $0.22 US$ / kwh? That would explain part of the high cost. That's almost 3x the cost around here! I'm not sure if I got the translation right.. Mine is negligible $$ in the summer (dark shell, actually ahve to work to keep it cool). I'm going to guess 50-70 in the coldest winter months depending on use. Middle TN climate. Avg prob $35 or so year round.

We have one, I live in the Smyrna area and bought directly from the factory. Honest folks at the factory that I felt I could trust. I've only had two issues in the last couple of years- start capacitor on pump #1, and the check valve for the ozonator failed. Insulation is OK, it's not foamed as full as some of the topshelf brands, but there is a good heaping in the cavity. We added a little in the equipment area. As the other poster mentioned, it is a little loud. Our pumps are mounted on rubber isolations, but you can still hear it when running. I don't claim that it's the same quality tub as some of the bigger brands (but it was about 1/2 the price that the clown dealers around here seem to expect for a six seater). I have no regrets. I'd give them a B, which is what I expected for my $$. 2 yrs later, used it's worth about the same as the big $$ tubs on craigslist around here. I'll prob keep it for another year or two, and then look for another backyard toy. In talking to the guys at the factory, they seem to sell quite a few locally, and have some US distribution. The ship quite a bit of product to Europe. They had several spas with the TV options in them in various build stages, all for european customers. As far as problems that the other poster experienced, several of them looked like issues with the radio.. I'm a big fan of the KISS principle.. All that electronic stuff and water don't mix real well- there's a reason the major mfg's put a 90 day warranty on the radios / tv's / etc.. They're failure prone.. Keep it simple, put some nice patio speakers in and create your sound stage from your home audio system.. Much more reliable (and higher quality). Finally- They're also in a squabble with a supplier over acrylobond (sp?)- this is a spray-on backing that gives the shell it's structure. There was a period in 2009 when they allege supplier problems and delamination of some spas. There was a lawsuit filed against the supplier- I don't know the status of the litigation- I haven't followed it, and I haven't seen any issues with my unit. If you're going mail order, Costco is hard to beat with the return policy. I was heading that way, but jumped on 4W because they had one we liked on the shop floor, I literally picked it out it at lunch, had it delivered, set up, and took my first soak later that night.. Nobody else in town had that kind of price or prompt service. Hope all of this helps.

A 20lb cylinder has roughly 360k btu in it. You'll go through half to all of that heating a tub on first fill, depending upon efficiency of the heater and tub size. You might get a few days to a wk out of a std. propane tank. Very expensive way to heat a tub IMHO, unless you have access to bulk pricing- the blue rhino and amerigas people will love you. As far as converting to propane, it will require a new orifice at a minimum- this is something that will need to be provided by the mfg, if it is even available. otherwise you're playing with fire (literally).

303 protectant. Marine stores, hot tub shops should sell. Bass pro prob even has it.

The concepts of "opportunity cost" and "net present value" are common sense for most people. 99.99999% of the folks out there would rather have the cash than trade a hot tub for a tennis racket. The easiest way to have that cash is never to have spent it in the first place . Roger, your post reminds me of the line in Blues Brothers where Dan Akroyd traded the caddy in for a microphone. Or for classic comedy, just watch this video and think "D1" every time you hear "Bears" and "Hot Springs" every time you hear "Bulls." That's how it is around here . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d32OeqbYbHg It's all comedy.