Matt87109

THIS post WAS deleted as it WAS a DIRECT attack on a member. This is in DIRECT violation of the boards guidelines.

Hi Doc, I'm putting all my updates in the first post via edit, so the thread will remain viable no matter how much dissent goes on. The tumult will always be below the diary. Thank you.

For those of you that requested I continue the diary I'm sorry but I can no longer continue. I appreciated the information I shared with others while buying my tub, but due to constant interference I can no longer justify committing time to the endeavor.

Thanks.... I'm going through that post.

They don't mention what PPM is average in a pool. Does anybody know? Bummer.... I like Cl. It's just a preliminary study, but the results are bothersome. chlorine

Has anybody had the opportunity cost discussion when it comes to cheap and expensive tubs?

You're welcome Knucklez. Do your research and consider the advice you read on this forum. I would just shy away from generalized bashing with opinions based on psudo-statistics like "everybody that buys a costco tub has problems"..... sure many that come here do, but how many is that in relation to how many they sell?...... get my point? Besides I think most people don't have any desire to get on the internet and talk about how great their hot tub is like we do, particularly if they didn't over pay I'm sure some of the manufacturers are junk as the dealer advocates state, but I like my OC - Calspa just fine. For me the big costco question mark was insulation. I got the calspa made tub and it has plenty of insulation. Other things they do to get the cost down is less lighting and no diverted valves, all things I don't care about, but maybe you do. At least in my tub this is what I observed. I am so glad I did not spend 7k on a tub. I previously had a tub from costco that I returned. It was supposedly made by Sundance/Jacuzzi. It had an internal leak that messed up the inside badly after one month. No problems were evident until the level built up and it started running out (fully sealed abs pan). I called costco and they took care of it 100%. Some have complained that costco did not return their call immediately or that they were put on hold. When I returned my tub I was patient and they took care of it solid. In fact one of the reasons I bought a costco tub AGAIN is they were the ONLY place that I felt I could trust. That reminds me, it's time for my soak. Good luck.

Original Poster Update: It how now been four months of use. I am still very happy. In fact I'm thrilled at how simple this tub is because it does exactly what I want and it does it well. Electricity usage is impossible to quantify because I have changed so many things (add square footage, add A/C changes, add hot tub, add new family member, add permanent guest). All things considered my electric bills does not indicate I have a huge hog on the line, but I can't really tell you for sure...... plus it's summer. Upon inspection I noted that my tub has plenty of insulation. The cover is also thick. I specifically bought a tub that indicated full foam insulation and would not buy a costco tub that indicated otherwise. I'm going to venture to say that even if I have to have this thing fixed several times, I still won't be disappointed. Thumbs up!

I have now had the tub running for one month. I'm using Nitro/Chem Geek's Chlorine method and am very happy. I have used the tub about 27 out of the last 30 days for approximately thirty minutes. This tub continues to be exactly what I wanted/needed with no defects.

Thanks Pup. I bought a 1/2 gallon of sodium silicate (that's what the guy at the store said it was) and will use that http://www.lesliespool.com/browse/Home/Fil...:600030/I/14225. I'll switch to TSP once I use this up. I'm assuming TSP is a lot cheaper? What is the difference between clean and deep-clean? Thanks!

I searched around and did not seem to find a post dedicated to cleaning filters. I noted Trisodium Phosphate mentioned, but am a little confused. Can anybody give me the skinny on cleaning filters and or point me in the direction of a comprehensive post? I'm using Chem Geeks/Nitro's dichlor/bleach method and am quite happy, but now that it's time to clean the filter (spa up for about 2.5 weeks) I'm blown away that the chemicals to clean a filter are 10 bucks a pop and I'm suppose to clean the filter once every couple weeks! Thanks for any information. Matt

Due to several private message requesting I continue, the diary lives on: The tub was delivered Last Thursday, or a couple weeks after placing my order. I had a friend bring over a pallet jack and with the help of the delivery guy (don't expect them to help I was just lucky) and his pallet jack we rolled the tub into my back yard on two pallet jacks with no problems. I gave the delivery guy a tip for his effort. If I was doing this again I'd get two friends and two pallet jacks with two sheets of plywood or OSB to get across soft spots in the yard. The tub was strapped and wrapped with cardboard/thin foam on a pallet, so it arrived with no damage and in good shape. The cover was in a separate box. Over the weekend I built a thin "pallet" using synthetic deck boards by laying down the 8ftx5.25x1 long boards on 1ft pitch and then laying additional boards across the first set with about 1/2 spacing in between. This created a very nice lifted surface for water run off. Previously I had a tub directly on concrete and didn't like it. I had one other friend help me lower the 600# tub onto the pallet. After it was down the abs bottom allowed it to slide around easily for repositioning. My first impression of the tub was that I was very happy with the aesthetics and lay out. Being a low cost tub, it does not have diverter valves and air valves, so as far as controls is pretty simple. I removed one of the jets by turning it counter clock wise with easy. The jets are designed so you can almost turn them off allowing you to redirect pressure to a particular seat if need be. Opening them all the way causes bubbles to form similar to an air valve. When they are half way off the pressure is about the same, but there are no bubbles. I pulled the sides off the tub and discovered a brown paper that was used as a backing (foam sprayed inbetween shell and paper) when the foam insulation was sprayed in. It appears to be approximately three or four inches thick or more in most places, but there are a few places were it is thinner around equipment. I was quite pleased with the amount of insulation I observed. The cover is 4" thick near the center and tapers off to 2.5 inches at the ends. I noted that the frame was typical 2x construction that was fabricated from treated wood. After the tub was in place I set a treated post in the ground, installed the disconnect box, and hooked up the 50amp GFCI breaker with the help of an electrician friend. We had already run 6ga wire from the house panel so it took about two hours. We ran the last 15ft with 8ga copper wire between the disconnect and tub. Before we turned on the juice, we filled the tub with water through the filter port. When we turned on the power the tub ran the pump (apparently for five min. before it kicks on the heater). It took a bit of messing around for about twenty seconds and bleeding the air out of the pump head before the water started to flow....not a big deal. Opening the equipment side of the spa reveled as expected, entry level spa equipment including: 1 ge motor w/ pump 1 balboa spa pack with flow through 5.5kw heater (simple 4button control up top) 1 balboa CD chip ozonator 2 gate valves 2" plumbing The 4-button control up top allows switching between standard, economy, and sleep mode. The specifications online have been updated to reflect what I suspected, that the tub is about 200 gallons, not 300. This was fine by me. The heater took about 2-3 hours getting up to 100 degrees. After installing the cover lifter and cover lock latches it was done. I then started messing with chemicals. Basically it arrived quickly, was not damaged, included all the parts, and was exactly what I envisioned. The set up was what I expected and went without issue. I was pleased to see industry branded components and plenty of insulation. I've used the tub the last two nights for a total of one hour. The seats are comfortable, the jets are surprisingly adequate, and the layout of each seat seems to work a different part of my back. I enjoy being in this tub! The Hot Spring tub is certainly the most intense of all the tubs I tested (beachcomber, marquis, hotsprings), but this tub compares nicely to the marquis and beachcomber from a wet testing perspective. In fact I found myself wanting to escape the high pressure in the Hot Spring. I certainly love the Hot Spring Moto message. I noted that the heater was capable of raising the temperature of the water while the tub was on high with ambient conditions of approximately 65F. The only thing that I could complain about is that it's louder on high speed due to pump noise than I would like. It's not waking the neighbors up, but it makes some noise. When in the tub you don't notice it over the water noise if that gives you a qualitative example. 72 hours with water in it and no signs of leaks. I'll pull all the sides off in two weeks and check again. Now that the tub has arrived and their quality control appears to have got the tub to me in working condition, the real question is will the insulation prove to be as effective as it appears it will be, and how long will it last. Since it has balboa parts I know I can likely get parts to fix the tub if I need. As of right now I'm extremely happy that I did not spend twice as much on a better tub, as this one looks like it will satisfy my requirements nicely. I'll report again if I have a problem or in a few months.

They weren't hijacked. The explanation is here. The domain expired without notifying the owner. So now tftestkits.net is the new permanent address though supposedly tftestkits.com will redirect there by Monday. Yeah that's what I meant when I said "hack site picked up their address", although I probably should not have said "hack". Anyway I just bought a TF100 kit. Thanks.

I just got back from the store and am a little confused. They have "spa" products and "pool" products. Does it really matter? The only product label I could find that had 99% "Sodium Dichlor-xxxxxxxxxxxx". Was pool shock. There was another pool shock that have 15% "Sodium Dichlor-xxxxxxxxxxxx". Do I just need to read in between the lines and get the chemical I need? I don't require that I'm buying the cheapest stuff, but I don't want to throw away dollars on marketing. What specific products do you guys use and how do you procure them? ThAnKs! TA increaser = baking soda CH increases = Calcium Chloride in nitro's write, but the store has Calcium Carbonate (I think the carbonate would increase TA too) Sanitizer = Dichlor (which one?) / Bleach (uncented 6% clorox) Sorry I need it spelled out to the Nth degree.

Thanks everybody..... that all makes sense. Does all "sodium dichlor......" have CYA? Paul you mentioned you use trichlor when you need to raise CYA, but I think dichlor has it as well. Maybe tri has more? I'm going to start off the the dichlor/bleach/no minerals method. It sounds challenging to learn as far as controlling ppm accurately. I'll just look at it like a game and try to have fun. Now that I've read a bit about this I dread to think about all those times I went into the gym's hot tub. I wonder if all the chlorine smell was combined chlorine and really how much of it was FC as person after person got in..... eiiick! I bet there are a lot of people that indicate they can't tolerate chlorine in a spa that are grossly mistaken. I don't really know for sure but I'll experiment first hand. I never really had any reactions before other than some itching from time to time, but that might of just been bacteria.....Niiiiiccce. Thanks for all the info.

Is it possible their site has gone down? It looks like one of those hack sites has picked up their address.

Thanks Nitro. I had not considered the more precise control of chlorine vs. bromine but it makes sense. I had read your transmission analogy a couple times but not in the context of understanding the bromine bank concept. That definitely makes sense now that I've read about bromine. I'm going to go with Chlorine and see how it pans out. I guess if I wanted to try Nature 2 the only real difference is that I have a lower goal for FC and or I can let it slide a little longer? That or minerals are basically a waste of money is what I've heard proposed a few times as well. Thanks again for putting an excellent summary out for us to read. Matt

Thanks for taking the time to write up your's/chem geek's protocol. I've read through it and understand that you prefer to just keep your FC and CC in check with basic chemicals forgoing minerals or floaters. I understand that you add dichlor until CYA is correct and then switching to bleach followed by shocking with bleach, MPS, or dichlor (depending on your CYA levels). This basic understanding leads me to a few questions if you don't mind: 1. Why would one not use a floater with chlorine tablets (sort of like a 3-part bromine). I assume the answer is that that chlorine dissolves too quickly and or floaters provide very poor FC control. I've noted that N2 does not offer a chlorine cart like spa frog offers bromine cart, so there has to be some reason I'm not finding. 2. It seems to me that a three-part bromine system, which spa frog appears to be, would be a great system compared to chlorine, but I know you feel otherwise. Can you point out what's missing in my consideration that causes me to find bromine to be the obvious choice? I have not been able to find any spa frog instructions, but from what I've read I'm betting they expect you to start off with balancing, sodium bromide, shock, and then plop in the floater w/ bromine cart. When I try to balance the 50 different variables in my head it seems like this would be superior to constantly checking chlorine. Maybe Bromine is too expensive? Maybe with a three part system after a shock you get high ppm bromine and cant use the tub for a while? That fact that oxidizers regenerate the bromine seems too good to be true so I'm wondering what the catch is. I'm getting all of this I think, but I'm struggling with needing to check ppm before/after/daily with chlorine. Thanks for your sharing your passion for perfect spa water. Matt

Matt will disapear before a year of ownership goes by, they almost all do. Keep up the diary if you feel it's of use to you. I doudt anyone else will get much out of it except your opinion. Hey moderator that deleted my post requesting rogers negative post be removed. I'm not sure what your agenda is, but it certainly has me wondering about the integrity of this forum. Feel free to delete this entire post because I won't be adding anything additional. EDIT ADD: After getting several personal message from others saying they valued my post I've decided to add additional comments. If you are reading this to get my story you will have to scroll though all the other comments as I'm just posting for other potential costco buyers that come in the future, not to have the same old debate. Thanks.

I there a link to this? It only makes sense based on the quality of spas from Costco over the past couple years along with the fact that most every spa maker they've done business with has gone belly up. hi spatech. if you follow the link to costco's site, scroll down to the bottom left and click on that link. a pdf with the delivery instructions will come up. the "returns" note at the bottom is not present on the form I was asked to sign but it's similar otherwise.

No they do not charge the fee. The "1000 fee" was on a linked document on costco's site. The link went to the manufacturers site, so it's not even costco saying that. It was the manufacturer sticking that small print in, but as I said the actual document signed does not have that small print and costco has told me that short of trying to return it after it's heavily used they would take care of me. I can't make comment about what "defective" is defined as. I can say that five years ago after having a costco tub for one month I noticed water dripping out of the side. Upon opening the mechanical compartment I noted standing water and separated plywood. I called costco and they had it extracted from the very place I installed it and refunded all of my money. Anyway so far so good. I'll post as milestones are passed or not. Costco haters please don't run with this and hijack the post. Thanks.

Today I received confirmation from the suppler. They requested that I read, sign, and fax back the delivery instructions. The delivery instructions indicated that my tub may arrive in one week rather than the 4-6 weeks. I noted that the 1000 dollar return fee note that was present in the delivery instructions from costco's website is not present on the form they are asking me to sign. I'll note that costco also told me that the fee would not be charged if the tub was defective. That is fine by me because I'm only interested in the product arriving safely and not having any early failures. At this point I have a lot of faith that costco will take care of me short of me trying to rip them off by sending back a well used tub. So far so good.

Today I ordered the following tub from costco. I am generating this post to document my experiences in real time. I'm hoping for smooth sailing, but I promise to accurately document the process so both views in the whole costco tub argument can have a simple post to read. I'm wasting my time doing this because I want to give back to this community and provide some real data as many here have helped me. Please DO NOT post denigrating text that offers no technical value (that includes you Roger ) as we all know the general consensus. Thanks, Matt To give you perspective: -I have a technical background -have wet tested a number of leading spas -returned one tub to costco about five years ago after a month due to a leak that damaged the interior of the tub badly -want just an adequate tub as a starter. If this tub lasts five years and I can prove to myself that I'm dedicated to the process than maybe I'll consider a more expensive tub. http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?...〈=en-US http://calspas.net/images/swf/oc-hot-tubs-m534-video.html because this link will eventually go inactive I'll copy and paste the specifications below. -I noted that some of the specifications on the costco site and the "watch demo" link that goes to calspas (link above) site don't agree. One difference being that costco site indicates 1 year labor while the OC pdf indicates no labor coverage. Another is 1 pump on costco's site and two pumps on cal's site. Also the control has a different specification. This is bothersome, but for a low cost tub I don't really care as long as it operates. Specs from costco's site: Majestic Series – MOC-534L: Standard Features: · Seating: 3 Person · Dimensions: 64” x 84” x 32” · Total # of Jets: 34 Stainless Steel Spoke Jets · 16 Micro Flow Directional Jets (ED) · 13 Euro Less Eyeball Jets (ELE) · 4 Euro Directional Jets (ED) · 1 Ozone Jet (OZ) · Full Foam Insulation · Water Treatment: Ozonator Installed · High Performance Pump: 1 x 6.0BHP 240V · Pump Voltage: 240V (Electrical connections must be made by qualified and licensed personnel. Improper installation present Hazards, which can result in personal injury or property damage. Please contact a licensed residential electrician for these services) · 2” Plumbing · Gate Valves · Lighting: 12V Spa Light · Filter Screw In with Weir Gate: 50 sq. ft. · 3 Comfort Pillows · Weight: Dry: 600lbs Filled: 3,307 lbs · Water Capacity: 325 USG · Equipment: "V300 Control with Digital Top Side" · Flow-Through Heater · Low Profile Drain (LPFD) · Wall Drain · Cabinet Accessible Drain Valve · Pressure Treated Cabinet Frame · Standard Bottom Tray · Shell Color: Snow White · Synthetic Cabinet Panels: Mist · Cover: Gray Warranty: · 5 Years - Structural · 2 Years - Finish · 2 Years - Parts · 1 Year - Labor

I called and asked costco's customer service. The CS rep said there was no small print and that I could return it ten years later (geeeeze). Anyway after I pointed out the link to the sheet that indicated a 1000 dollar return fee she said she wanted to investigate and would call me in a day or two. She gave me her name and extension. That's reasonable to me... I'll let you know what happens.

It will be interesting to see if/when Costco changes their return policy on spas much as they've done on some other items. They've been stuck with a bill now for a good number of returns as previous big box suppliers like Hydrospa, Keys, Infinity and now Living Waters all went down the tubes leaving Costco holding the bag. Of course we know they'll make good on their return policy for those who've already purchased so I'm not trying to start a stampede but at some point I gotta think they'll either change their approach and start to carry true quality spas to avoid the problems/returns or limit the no questions asked return to a set time. I agree. Go to the bottom of this link and click on the buyer delivery instructions. It looks like they are claiming there is a 1000 dollar return fee. I'll call costco and find out what that means as it's from the manufacturer. http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11380623