Economy Spas

[Trigger]

..... I noticed there is a serious anti-Costco movement and a "buy from a dealer or you will be sorry" factor here so I thought I'd shed some thoughts on the matter....

the arguments for buying from a dealer generally come back to support and better quality merchandise. Better quality is questionable for many of the reasons stated above, but even more questionable is the value of service.

Some of you may fully grasp what I am telling you and others won't but the bottom line is that, just like any other business, this one will have to reinvent itself due to the impact of the internet - welcome to the club, and good luck with that!

Not necessaryl "Anti-Costco" but more trying to measure the "costco product and package" to other tubs that have been pretty well documented. There are positives (price) and negatives (servcie, delivery and questionable quality). If mentioning those negatives is "anti-costco....well, we just went through a pantload of posts back and forth on that. I don't think it's anti-costco, but those that have purchased via costco despite the problems, feel attacked.. Some posters have compared their tubs to being equivlant to tubs costing 2 times as much. That's a bold statement, espically so when the "anti costco" statement being posted by owners are poor insulation, design flaws, pump issues, service quality and seasoned owners rate the tub as mediocre.

Btw, I bought one of those Pilates H2Os from Costco. $7K, had it about 1 month - loving it so far.

Ah. I understand the anti costco statment. you have a vested interest in the product.

I had another spa that lasted 20 years and was time for a new one0

Curious, what brand was that? did you consider purchasing from thata manufactuer again? Why? Why not?

I looked a several spas and read everything I could on the one I bought and I am convinced that from a pure value standpoint I made the right choice, hands down. The entire electronics package is produced by AeWare - nice quality stuff. I will take some pictures and post them, it really is a nice machine. I saw a lot of nice spas in the dealers here in the Bay Area, as well. Based on my observations this spa would have sold for between 10 and 14K in the dealers. I never once saw a spa that had as many features.

You're not the first to say that or make price comparisons in that range. Which honestly has sparked many people to wonder if thats true. I understand you believe it to be, I remain skeptical, and hope to see more objective (if that's possible) data and expereinces.

One of the best ways to evelauate your purchase is to stay with us. Everybody loves thier tub for the first few months. Hopefully we can track these purchases down the road several years so we can gather solid expereinces. I hope you stick around and post about your tub more.

What did you think about the warranty?

[Jim_The_Jim]

The foam supports the shell.

In case it wasn't clear from my description, the Omni shell appeared to be supported, under the seats, by intrusions moulded in the base. As Roger points out, this permits a thinner shell to be used.

Given the cost of FRP, does this not also represents a cost saving to the manufacturer?

It is the same type of shell used on Sundance with a lot of supports underneath. The spa is better made with more features and decent parts, but the Sundance sells for 4K to 6 k more.

A shopper would be very lazy, and subject themselves to only sales rhetoric, to not take the time to understand how these spas are made.

Most of the spas from the major manufacuturers are not well made any more. The can't afford to build quality any longer. Their food chain is too long to make the products high quality.

In 1988 the Sundance Cameo was a fantastic machine, with a super thick shell and the strongest equipment. It sold for about $9k. It is 2007 and they are still selling it for $9K what does that tell you about the quality?

The price of commodities, and petroleum (spas are mostly petroleum) has gone up almost 4 times since 1988. The pump that was in the 1988 Cameo sells for over $1000 today. Just the pump. Go look it up StaRite 2 HP Two speed 2 inch intake, 1.5 inch pressure side, 230V with service factor of 1.4.

http://www.soundclick.com/havenhead

[Spamaster101]

Here is may take on it. First I am only a service person, I do not sell new spas. A spa for the most part is not one of those plug in a play items from fill up, understanding the controls, water chemistry...I do not care how well the manuals are written most people choose not the read them completely. These issues can be taken care by a local dealer and a lot of dealers will give a complete orientation on the spa at the first fill.

Let's say you got past fill up with no problems and all is going well, two weeks later the spa stops running. You will have to call the factory and they will have to find an independent to come fix your. Maybe they have a good local person and maybe they do not. I have two people I know that asked me to service the Home Depot tub they bought as it has been weeks since they called the factory. I had to tell them the only way I will do it if they pay me. Neither wanted to do that and now have their broke spas up for sale.

Can you have a good experience from a Costco, Home Depot... purchase, of course you can, but as much as I have looked into this the odds are low that you will.

Can you have a bad experience from a local dealer, of course you can but the odds are you will not.

If you are do it yourself kind of person then a cheap, lower quality tub from Costco maybe right for.

Also you can buy cheap low quality from a dealer, but at least you will have local support.

I think there will be a time that buying from the discount places over the net will be fine for the masses but we are not there yet.

Bottom line if you are paying $7000 for a bigger tub that has all the bells and whistles it is a low quality tub.

[Trigger]

....In 1988 the Sundance Cameo was a fantastic machine, with a super thick shell and the strongest equipment. It sold for about $9k. It is 2007 and they are still selling it for $9K what does that tell you about the quality?

Absolutley nothing.

What does it tell us about your understanding of business, manufactuering and production,(as well as your sales stlye and technique)? Quite a bit.

[Jim_The_Jim]

One thing I noticed as you plugged "your" spa was that there is no mention of price difference. People in here seem very worried about how much insulation a particular hot tub contains as if that is some measure of quality. Insulation is the least expensive component and easiest issue to remedy. So, why would I want to pay 4 to 6K more for a hot tub that has another inch of insulation? Is it just the implied quality that more insulation gives?

I've never posted here before and I don't usually post unless compelled to. I noticed there is a serious anti-Costco movement and a "buy from a dealer or you will be sorry" factor here so I thought I'd shed some thoughts on the matter. A few people have touched on the fact that dealers of any consumer item better get used to competition like you have never seen before. We have all seen this in many industries. Amazon revenues have reached $10B. Any market in which the retail price versus the cost to produce (margin) is significantly disparate is a target for an e-commerce solution. Dealers should be afraid. It's a fight or flight scenario that is irreversible. Consumers are learning that e-commerce is relatively safe, if dealing with organizations that have a reputation to protect. I have had more issues with my bank compromising my credit card numbers than I have had on-line and I purchase a lot on line (reputable orgs only). These oganizations (Amazon, Costco, Home Depot, etc.) have enormous leverage over their suppliers. Contracts given to suppliers offer potentially huge volumes and massive increases in revenues. At the same time, the Costco's of the world beat the heck out of a supplier on price, customer satisfaction, quality, and return policy. This is why there are almost no questions asked upon return of goods to the store. The supplier is under full liability to take back any item in any condition returned from the customer. Now a spa might be harder to get to the store, but I would fully engage Costco's e-commerce division to get problems solved for me before I'd lug my 1000 lbs. spa back to the store.

The arguments for buying from a dealer generally come back to support and better quality merchandise. Better quality is questionable for many of the reasons stated above, but even more questionable is the value of service. I understand cost models of businesses and when you walk into a spa showroom with all the pretty lights, air conditioning, and general atmosphere of wonderfulness, remember - you are going to pay for that too. These are not lean organizations with streamlined operational supply chain and logistics processes and you will pay for every inefficiency, not to mention profit margins have to be much higher due to a lack of market reach.

Some of you may fully grasp what I am telling you and others won't but the bottom line is that, just like any other business, this one will have to reinvent itself due to the impact of the internet - welcome to the club, and good luck with that!

Btw, I bought one of those Pilates H2Os from Costco. $7K, had it about 1 month - loving it so far. I had another spa that lasted 20 years and was time for a new one. I looked a several spas and read everything I could on the one I bought and I am convinced that from a pure value standpoint I made the right choice, hands down. The entire electronics package is produced by AeWare - nice quality stuff. I will take some pictures and post them, it really is a nice machine. I saw a lot of nice spas in the dealers here in the Bay Area, as well. Based on my observations this spa would have sold for between 10 and 14K in the dealers. I never once saw a spa that had as many features.

Dusty

Your evaluation is pretty close, and astute!

This is what I have been saying for years, and that is why I am so disliked in the spa industry. They can't fool a seasoned shopper, and people who have owned before and gotten ripped off. We hear from them all the time.

The industry has to change, because the internet is now and has been, the best place to buy, if you want a good deal.

I am getting email from China every day now, and the photos of the spas are looking good. There is a Chinese spa on Ebay and I took a look in detal at the photos. Not bad for $2200.

Times are changing, boys!

Buying from a, high overhead, dealer is not a good idea. They are dropping like flies across this country, so they are not there to serve their own customers any more. The "bug spray" of a terrible economy, in which people are in debt up to their eyebrows, and the price of fuel is putting fear in people to spend any money on a "luxury item". When you add the terrible reputation of the industry, people are going to wait or they are going to go to Costco. These are facts.

Hot Spring is not loyal to their dealers either, putting a model at Costco for $2500 less than the same model offered at the dealer. They are only concerned about money. Understand?

Hot tubs are on the "top of the pyrimid" of things that people buy, after the car, the home, the kids, the utilities, and if there is any money left over on intertainment. When the average consumer is, right now $1000-$2000 paying more per year than they earn and they are using credit to buy groceries and gasoline, something is not right. These are statistics on the news.

Shoppers have to be smarter than sales people and these forums are full of some sales people, with a lot of fear, trying to protect what little income they have, because "it aint working like it used to".

In our business we have adapted. We are helping people with all of these spas breaking down, and we are helping people who have bought Costco spas in our store. We have always helped people with other brands of spas.

Because so many dealers are going out of business, that makes it smart to buy from an internet company who is already helping "dealerless" abandoned spa owners. That is why a fellow in Colorado can do more help than a "technical illiterate" dealer or a dealer who is out of business.

http://www.soundclick.com/havenhead

[Spamaster101]

They are dropping like flies across this country, so they are not there to serve their own customers any more.

And the guy selling over the net sitting California or wherever can help a guy in New York better. What kind of crack do you smoke?

And the BS that these folks say they have service people all over the nation is BS.

[East TX Spa]

[flibotte]

"Btw, I bought one of those Pilates H2Os from Costco."

I would love to do a wet test on that tub. It looks pretty cool, I like the idea of the "programmable hydrotherapy sequence profiles offering a variety of specific massaging options."

Seems like a pretty cool tub.

[Trigger]

these forums are full of some sales people, with a lot of fear

There sure are Jim. You make the top of that list.

[egbert]

In 1988 the Sundance Cameo was a fantastic machine, with a super thick shell and the strongest equipment. It sold for about $9k. It is 2007 and they are still selling it for $9K what does that tell you about the quality?

Absolutly nothing. What are there manufacturing cost compared to 1988?

[Spamaster101]

In 1988 the Sundance Cameo was a fantastic machine, with a super thick shell and the strongest equipment. It sold for about $9k. It is 2007 and they are still selling it for $9K what does that tell you about the quality?

Absolutly nothing. What are there manufacturing cost compared to 1988?

A Cameo did not cost 9K back in 1988, but I do know that profit margins are not what they use to be. If the manufactures and dealers kept up with the same margins they got back in the 80's the current Cameo would be well over 10K.

Now if for some rare occurrence someone did get 9K for a Cameo back in 1988 more power to them. If they could get 9K why sell it for less.

Products are priced at what the market will bare, no less.

[Chris H]

From what I have read and understood, the margin on the Sundance line was between 300% and 400% in the late 1980’s. This would mean a spa that cost the dealer $3,000 would retail in the area of $10,000. Those were the good old days. Trust me; the margins are no where near that now.

[Jim_The_Jim]

They are dropping like flies across this country, so they are not there to serve their own customers any more.

And the guy selling over the net sitting California or wherever can help a guy in New York better. What kind of crack do you smoke?

And the BS that these folks say they have service people all over the nation is BS.

Actually, I have personally helped people who have no dealer any more, and served them better, because of my knowledge than what the dealer was able to give. I have also helped them to find qualified service people.

I have a whole set of self help pages that I am working on and will have video some time soon.

Anybody who can change a spark plug can fix a spa, with correct information. It is what people need that we offer.

We have most of the parts for average spas and for junky spas like Hot Spring we offer upgraded equipment.

http://www.soundclick.com/havenhead

[Trigger]

Kind of a going out of buisness Care package for your stranded customers, eh?

How many days until ...forclos...errr "Retirement" ?

When will the video be out?

[Dusty]

"Btw, I bought one of those Pilates H2Os from Costco."

I would love to do a wet test on that tub. It looks pretty cool, I like the idea of the "programmable hydrotherapy sequence profiles offering a variety of specific massaging options."

Seems like a pretty cool tub.

http://www.pilatesh2o.com/

I don't know where you could wet test it - it is only available over the internet.

Costco e-comm Pilates Spa

I love the massagers. There are two seats that have programmable massage sequencers. There are 7 types of pre-programmed sequencing and you can vary the speed (3 settings) in four zones up and down your back. Each of the massage chairs has an individual pump running it. There are two sequencer control packs inside the tub connected to four servo valves on each chair. It has a lot of pressure behind it and when you add air it is more than most people feel comfortable with. I kind of build up to greater and greater pressure. Bottom line, the features versus price place this as a great value. I've read the posts about "yeah, but what are you going to do when it breaks?". My answer would be "fix it". Plumbing is easy and it's above ground. The electrical is elementary, the motors are simple and if the electronics get fried, I would figure out why and likely replace them. It's the same thing any "professional" spa service guy would try to do. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to run a and maintain a spa, there are very few moving parts (just that a few of them move very fast).

But, so far I am loving the spa. I don't think that getting this is for everybody. For that matter, if you can't afford what you are buying - don't buy it. That includes maintenance and/or replacement if you gotta have it. I have an old Porsche my kids would just love to have. It's not worth that much, but the cost of ownership is relatively high ($2000 for a clutch etc.) Spa's can be like to a lesser degree and the ignorant think a spa doesn't require any maintenance.

[Dusty]

"Btw, I bought one of those Pilates H2Os from Costco."

I would love to do a wet test on that tub. It looks pretty cool, I like the idea of the "programmable hydrotherapy sequence profiles offering a variety of specific massaging options."

Seems like a pretty cool tub.

I found the link to the dynamic jet sequencer manufacturer (Gecko). http://www.metapacks.com/a_djs1.htm

There are 2 jet sequencers and sets of 2 controls for the massage seats. Gecko also makes the remote control for the tub. Remote Control for Pilates H2O I'd rather have an RF remote, but this is pretty nice for the audio and spa control.

[flibotte]

I just checked out the web page. I think these are actually made by Gulf Coast Spas (same address as GC). I have a freind with one and the insulation isn't very good and her electric bill is very high in the winter (over $100 a month). Do you live in a cold climate?

My guess is this tub is similar quality to the Keys and Hydro tubs they sell at Costco and other big box stores.

[flibotte]

Do you like the removable massage balls?

[Trigger]

Do you like the removable massage balls?

That's a very personal question!

[Dusty]

Do you like the removable massage balls?

That's a very personal question!

It is very personal, but I will go ahead and answer since my real name isn't Dusty. The massage balls don't add anything, IMHO. Now, if they were vibrating, I could see real application for them . It's funny though, they seem to make a bigger deal out of them than they warrant - I guess I just don't get it.

[Jim_The_Jim]

In 1988 the Sundance Cameo was a fantastic machine, with a super thick shell and the strongest equipment. It sold for about $9k. It is 2007 and they are still selling it for $9K what does that tell you about the quality?

Absolutly nothing. What are there manufacturing cost compared to 1988?

The manufacturing costs are at least 185% more, because of the fact that most of the spa is made from petroleum. Copper has gone up 4 or 400% times since 1988. Steel at least double. You think about it. Go look at a 1988 Sundance, then look at a 2007 and tell me what you see?

[Chris H]

The manufacturing costs are at least 185% more, because of the fact that most of the spa is made from petroleum. Copper has gone up 4 or 400% times since 1988. Steel at least double. You think about it. Go look at a 1988 Sundance, then look at a 2007 and tell me what you see?

As much as it has to do with increased costs you seem to forget that in the late 1980’s the retail margins for the Sundance line were usually over 300%. The retail margin has drastically decreased since that time and you know that. Please stop stating that it is because of them using cheap parts. There are a few other reasons as well, improved efficiency in the manufacturing process and increased production both lead to lower manufacturing costs as well.

[Jim_The_Jim]

In 1988 the Sundance Cameo was a fantastic machine, with a super thick shell and the strongest equipment. It sold for about $9k. It is 2007 and they are still selling it for $9K what does that tell you about the quality?

Absolutly nothing. What are there manufacturing cost compared to 1988?

A Cameo did not cost 9K back in 1988, but I do know that profit margins are not what they use to be. If the manufactures and dealers kept up with the same margins they got back in the 80's the current Cameo would be well over 10K.

Now if for some rare occurrence someone did get 9K for a Cameo back in 1988 more power to them. If they could get 9K why sell it for less.

Products are priced at what the market will bare, no less.

The point is obvious. The Cameo of 1988 is four times the product they make now. If you go look at them and compare you will see the new ones are really bad and it shows the desparation to try and make money on a dying brand.

[Trigger]

In 1988 the Sundance Cameo was a fantastic machine, with a super thick shell and the strongest equipment. It sold for about $9k. It is 2007 and they are still selling it for $9K what does that tell you about the quality?

Absolutly nothing. What are there manufacturing cost compared to 1988?

A Cameo did not cost 9K back in 1988, but I do know that profit margins are not what they use to be. If the manufactures and dealers kept up with the same margins they got back in the 80's the current Cameo would be well over 10K.

Now if for some rare occurrence someone did get 9K for a Cameo back in 1988 more power to them. If they could get 9K why sell it for less.

Products are priced at what the market will bare, no less.

The point is obvious. The Cameo of 1988 is four times the product they make now. If you go look at them and compare you will see the new ones are really bad and it shows the desparation to try and make money on a dying brand.

My friend said they saw one of YOUR Tubs and it was a piece of crap. The owners said dealing with you was like dealing with a speacial needs pre schooler. (Thier words, not mine).

[Roger]

My friend said they saw one of YOUR Tubs and it was a piece of crap. The oners said dealing with you was like dealing with a speacial needs pre schooler. (Thier words, not mine).

I've seen all kinds of Phoenix tubs and imagining shiny bubble wrap surrounding the perimeter and a few holes drilled in the cabinet is pretty easy. I say the same thing, middle of the road tub at high end pricing with poor customer support.