Permits Necessary For Installing Spa?

[ht2020]

I'm intending on installing a Hot Springs spa in my backyard and thought that I would check on the neccessity of acquiring a permit. I live in West Los Angeles and called the local building and safety office to make inquiries. I got the distinct impression that getting a permit would be quite cumbersome. The inspector I spoke to sounded very officious and was lecturing me on a self-locking cover, a 5 foot enclosure around the spa etc. I then asked what if I wanted to semi-vault the spa (ie: about 20 inches) and he said that the vaulting would have to be inspected before the spa was put into it etc. Do people actually go through all of this or is this routinely ignored? I spoke to an installer who does vaulting and he told me that he would charge me an extra $1000 to pull the permit and deal with all the issues relating to it. I prefer to do things above board but this sounds like a big fuss and a potential headache.

[NewNickels55]

Let's just say it may be required, but I may have skipped that step for my installation. I have done a ton of home improvements and have yet to get a permit for any of them. They are mainly for when you sell your property so the buyers know everything was done to code.

PS - I only hire people that I know and trust. Make sure that everything is done correctly!!!

[masanori]

I live in NY and I needed to get a permit one for the pad and one for electric

[north_of_boston]

Here in my area, I wasn't aware of "vaulting", structures around the tub, etc. so I don't think there were any.

HOWEVER -- BUT -- I did have an electrician pull a permit. And underwent inspection. And the town's electrical inspector came and examined EVERYTHING -- so it was on the up-and-up.

[SHOWEM]

I wouldn't pull a permit. I would just make sure you hire a competant spa dealer and electrician and any other contractor you may need.

[n1oty]

I wouldn't pull a permit. I would just make sure you hire a competant spa dealer and electrician and any other contractor you may need.

And what do you think may happen if he hires a low-bid electrician who does not perform a proper installation??? Last week, I averaged one tub a day that had MAJOR electrical code violations, one of which had the electricians conductors melt due to undersized and wrong conductor type that was exposed to the weather. Proper permitting and inspection serves to protect the homeowner most of all. A lot of electricians that are starving for work are deliberately under-bidding in order to get the job, then go through their material list to see where they can cut corners in order to squeeze profit out of the job. I am noticing this most in conductor size (bigger copper conductors are more expensive), but other cost cutting measures also get employed (not using conduit where required, not putting in a disconnect, etc.). Since I also do a fair amount of insurance company consultations when fire or freeze damage is involved, I can tell you that the insurance outfits are looking more closely at this when there is a loss. Some of them are beginning to walk away from claims where no electrical permit was pulled or an electrical inspection performed, at least in areas with permitting/inspection requirements. If you live in such an area, you are playing with fire (no pun intended).

I am on a committee here in Massachusetts that is studying and advising on a pending bill in the Mass legislature (Senate Bill 85). Our committee met a week ago with two representatives of the state inspectors association. I showed the inspectors a boat load of pictures that I've taken of major electrical code violations at various job sites recently to give them an idea of the scope of the problems in the field. We have more interaction with the inspectors before our licensing attempt moves forward, but their initial reaction was for servicers to "red tag" and shut down non-compliant equipment, followed by notification to the local building department. This problem is so pervasive in my area, that tub servicers may be assuming liability for not notifying local inspectors to code violations, since Massachusetts electric code has the force of law by regulation in this state.

I have observed much bad advice regarding installations over the years, but this ranks with the worst.

John

[SHOWEM]

You need to RELAX John. Put your granny glasses on and read what I said: Make sure you hire competant contractors to do the job. John you have a NICE day! I mean that!

[ht2020]

Very interesting post, n1oty. I was thinking of a hybrid solution ie: getting a licensed electrician who will do everything properly and not skimp on anything BUT not pull a permit. The problem with the permit is that once the city is involved the whole thing becomes a mess. I do recognize that insurance may be an issue here if there is a problem

[SHOWEM]

EXACTLY!! If you hire license competant contractors to do the job there will be no issues! Say you pull a wiring permit and the inspector comes out and says everything is up to code and signs off on it and down the road you have a fire and they determine it was related to the electrical work you had done, who do you think is responsible? Not the inspector!! He's off the HOOK! I am a license electrician,been doing electrical work close to 40 years now, I've pulled permits at times and the other times I have not and have not had any fires yet. If I insulted anyone I apologize,just my opinion,have a good one!

[ht2020]

I think that the point n1oty was making is that if something goes wrong ie: you electrocute someone, cause a fire etc you will file an insurance claim. Theoretically the insurance company could say that this was unpermitted work EVEN THOUGH it was done my a licensed electrician and was done "to code". I don't know whether this point is correct and if an insurance company can deny your claim because you failed to get a permit, even though the work was properly done. I have recently had some general liability issues in the properties that I own and I don't think that these are minor issues. However, having said that, I think the vast majority of people probably don't pull permits on this kind of work and it is most-likely a non-issue 99% of the time.

[Apollo217]

I think that the point n1oty was making is that if something goes wrong ie: you electrocute someone, cause a fire etc you will file an insurance claim. Theoretically the insurance company could say that this was unpermitted work EVEN THOUGH it was done my a licensed electrician and was done "to code". I don't know whether this point is correct and if an insurance company can deny your claim because you failed to get a permit, even though the work was properly done. I have recently had some general liability issues in the properties that I own and I don't think that these are minor issues. However, having said that, I think the vast majority of people probably don't pull permits on this kind of work and it is most-likely a non-issue 99% of the time.

John is 100% correct. Permits aren't to protect the contractor they protect the homeowner. Of course the insurance company would not cover it if there was no permit pulled. How are you the homeowner going to know if it was done to code? Because the electrician who didn't want to pull a permit says it is? Other then the cost of the permit it shouldn't cost anymore

[Apollo217]

I sold a good amount of tubs last year and I would say 75% of them used the electrician I recommended and he pulls permits on all hot tub wiring jobs. I would as the majority do get permits and those are the people who never have a problem. The others you never know what you are going to get. Some maybe competent and others typically the cheapest bid guys are nothing but hacks and there is a reason why they are the cheapest

[Dr. Spa]

How does a homeowner determine the competency of a contractor??? And how do they determine that this "competent, licensed" contractor actually did the job correctly, without cutting any corners?

IF, a licensed contractor* fails to pull the required permit, how competent is he, really?

*In California, a licensed contractor is REQUIRED by LAW to either pull a permit, or be sure that there is a valid permit for the job (such as if he a subcontractor, and the general pulled the permit)

[n1oty]

I think that the point n1oty was making is that if something goes wrong ie: you electrocute someone, cause a fire etc you will file an insurance claim. Theoretically the insurance company could say that this was unpermitted work EVEN THOUGH it was done my a licensed electrician and was done "to code". I don't know whether this point is correct and if an insurance company can deny your claim because you failed to get a permit, even though the work was properly done. I have recently had some general liability issues in the properties that I own and I don't think that these are minor issues. However, having said that, I think the vast majority of people probably don't pull permits on this kind of work and it is most-likely a non-issue 99% of the time.

I am really addressing two main points in my post. You do grasp one of my points regarding insurance though. Dr Spa addressed my second point and did it far better than I did. All electricians will claim to be highly competent, yet the problems I see in the field reveal that some of them must be dishonest, incompetent or a combination of the two. Permitting and inspections ensure that the homeowner has a TRAINED pair of eyes overseeing the electrical portion of the installation. The vast majority of homeowners are unable to discern the difference between a good installation and a hack job, even though their very life depends on it.

John

[Dnepr Dave]

Though safety is an important part of permitting and inspection, it is mostly so that the local government is aware of your spa and can tax you for it.

Dave

[ht2020]

Dave,

I live in a part of the country where "starter homes" cost over a million. How much can a spa add to your property taxes? This may be a significant concern in areas where the entire cost of a home is 65K and you are buying a spa for 10K. I doubt this is a real issue otherwise (not to say you didn't make me a little nervous with this!)

[Apollo217]

I hae never heard of being taxed on a hot tub. Around here only inground pools increase your property taxes.

[SHOWEM]

The best way of finding a good electrician that cares and does quality work is word of mouth. Talk to friends, coworkers and see if they have had work done and go from there. You don't get taxed on a portable tub. My main concern about pulling a permit is you are allowing the inspector into your home,property and he is taking notes as far as what other work/improvements you may have done. I am not anti inspector, last fall I had my inground pool filled in. I pulled a permit so it will be recorded that the pool is indeed filled in so I can take it off my taxes. Also my liability insurance will be lowered.

[north_of_boston]

I'll relate my experience.

Three years ago I went to replace my Sequoia Spa with a new Arctic Yukon. I was moving the tub around 10 feet (let's call it 3 meters) further away from the house, inside the fence.

I could not get the electrician I had that did the old spa back in '99. So my mother calls and says "why don't you hire Billy? He's a master electrician. He's very good." Billy is a cousin's son (name changed).

So I hire him. You always trust your mother, right?

Things start to go wrong when I tell him -- "look, I want this all above board. We got all that water, 220 volts and peoples' a$$es in water. Have you ever done this before?"

"Well, I know how to do it." OK, mrs north and I look at each other...

"OK, you are going to have to pull a permit, I want this legal, covered, all of that."

"Yup." Now my dealer is not an electrician, but knows what to tell the electrician so they get on the phone, exchange notes.

Day comes -- I hire his two brothers to dig the pit for the new conduit. He says "I'll go up to the city hall to pull the permit." Great.

Coincidentally - I get an e-mail from the electrician I was originally trying to reach - "Sorry but I was working on a big job out-of-state." Regretfully I told him I had to go in another direction because I couldn't reach him.

Billy comes back.

"I can't pull the permit."

"Why not?"

"I don't have a license."

WHAT THE @#$%^!

"but I have a friend who has one, he can pull one, but you have to sign an insurance waiver...."

So I gave him some money -- said this isn't gonna work, thanks... paid his brothers for the ditch digging, and then....

I called the original electrician and said "can you get over here? The direction has changed back." His reply = "Sure, as long as there's coffee!"

[north_of_boston]

duplicate message.

[n1oty]

And this is why you cannot properly judge the quality of an electricians work simply from word of mouth. The average consumer, friend or family member does not know enough about the electrical trade to make informed judgements as to the quality of the work, or in this case, whether the guy really is an electrician. Many folks make their judgement of an electrician simply based on who is the cheapest. That could mean that he is simply a home handyman type and not what he purports to be. An electrical inspector is not going to base his judgement on meaningless metrics, but on the actual licensing of the "electrician" and the ACTUAL code compliance of the installation.

John

[Dr. Spa]

The other thing to consider is that the electrical wiring for a spa is somewhat of a specialty. There's a number of codes and regulations very specific to pools and spas. A general electrician don't necessarily know these (and frequently has enough of a god complex that they wont ask...or think they know it all). Personally, I've seen more spas messed up by electricians, than by homeowners that wire it themselves.

[north_of_boston]

And this is why you cannot properly judge the quality of an electricians work simply from word of mouth. The average consumer, friend or family member does not know enough about the electrical trade to make informed judgements as to the quality of the work, or in this case, whether the guy really is an electrician. Many folks make their judgement of an electrician simply based on who is the cheapest. That could mean that he is simply a home handyman type and not what he purports to be. An electrical inspector is not going to base his judgement on meaningless metrics, but on the actual licensing of the "electrician" and the ACTUAL code compliance of the installation.

John

The guy I wanted does a lot of hot tubs and pools in my area (Merrimack Valley and southern New Hampshire) and is recommended by many hot tub and pool places. They know him by name.

The inspector even looked at the work and said "I can guess who did this...." and he was right.

[ht2020]

My problem with getting a permit is not the cost or the inconvenience, but the fact that a lot of their stipulations are just plain stupid. For example, I would need to have both my backyard gates open outwards instead of inwards (in case a wayward child stumbles into my yard through this gate and drowns himself in the spa). My gate doors face the "wrong" way and I may need to change this if I pull a permit. The spa cannot be a certain distance from the fence in case a child hurls himself over the fence and drowns in my spa. This last provision is especially retarded since I am compelled by the permit to have a cover with a latch! I also need to have an unbroken fence all around the perimeter of at least 5 feet (I think I can comply with this one). I need to have an alarm installed over the French doors that lead into the yard in case a child goes through these doors and drowns himself in my spa. I was told by the electrician that they have one portable alarm that they simply move from job to job to comply with this provision. There may be other required imbecilities that I'm not even aware of at this time but would surely find out to my great detriment. I have no problem complying with reasonable requests but this stuff does not merit my compliance. I have hired a team that does tons of spas, are licensed for electricity and will do the job without a permit.

[n1oty]

My problem with getting a permit is not the cost or the inconvenience, but the fact that a lot of their stipulations are just plain stupid. For example, I would need to have both my backyard gates open outwards instead of inwards (in case a wayward child stumbles into my yard through this gate and drowns himself in the spa). My gate doors face the "wrong" way and I may need to change this if I pull a permit. The spa cannot be a certain distance from the fence in case a child hurls himself over the fence and drowns in my spa. This last provision is especially retarded since I am compelled by the permit to have a cover with a latch! I also need to have an unbroken fence all around the perimeter of at least 5 feet (I think I can comply with this one). I need to have an alarm installed over the French doors that lead into the yard in case a child goes through these doors and drowns himself in my spa. I was told by the electrician that they have one portable alarm that they simply move from job to job to comply with this provision. There may be other required imbecilities that I'm not even aware of at this time but would surely find out to my great detriment. I have no problem complying with reasonable requests but this stuff does not merit my compliance. I have hired a team that does tons of spas, are licensed for electricity and will do the job without a permit.

Sorry to hear about that. Your area apparently has adopted many additional regulations beyond the national model code. If you actually do install without the permit or permits, be especially careful about who you hire to do the work. I agree with Dr Spa and have observed more screwed up electrical installations from electricians than anyone else.

John