ht2020

Well I wasn't asking for perfection. I was simply trying to find the cover lifter that had the LEAST view obstruction of any other per its given rear clearance. For example, the cover caddy and cover shelf are extremely discrete in that sense but they require 36 inches and 43 inches clearance respectively. The covermate II requires 18 inches of clearance and sticks up about 24 inches. The covercradle requires 24 inches of clearance and sticks up about 18 inches. I was trying to find out if there are other models that I'm not aware of that would keep a low profile and not require too much room. I guess the answer is no.

I've been researching all the cover lifters available for a Vanguard hotsprings spa. I would like to have one which is the least obtrusive view blocker ie: sticks up the very least over the bar top. I have exactly 25 inches of clearance. I've looked at the CoverCradle, Covermate, Rock-it and a few others. It's been very difficult to get reliable info about how far up they stick out. Watkins has told me that the CoverCradle will stick up about 18 inches above the surface of a Vanguard (spa is 87 inches square, 36 inches high, folded cover 44 inches). Simple math would imply that if the cover is sitting directly behind the spa ON the ground it would stick up about 8 inches above the bartop. Therefore, the real issue with any cover lifter is how high above the floor will it have the cover resting when it's fully retracted behind the spa. If the CoverCradle keeps it 18 inches above the bartop it must imply that the cover is 10 inches above the ground in the back. I've been told that the Covermates I and II will be even worse ie: more view obstructing than this. Are there any lifters that ultimately get the cover lower than 10 inches from the ground? In other words, what is the lowest profile cover lifter available?

On my recent HS Vanguard purchase I was set up with the Nature 2 silver stick/MPS system ie: no or low chlorine recipe. The system is quite easy ie: MPS before and after every soak; shock with dichlor as needed. My only problem with this regimen is that it relies on testing wtih MPS strips to verify that it is being done correctly. Whereas if I use dichlor I can do more accurate testing with a reagent kit (I have the pool master one). Chlorine is easy to test and I suspect that the kits and strips are pretty accurate. Does anyone know if the Zodiac Nature2 MPS strips are accurate? The other thing I can test for with my kit is combined chlorine (test for chlorine first, then wait for 2 minutes and retake the reading to determine the combined chlorine ppm level). I suppose if the combined chlorine is high I can shock as needed. One other issue: I am shocking weekly with 1oz dichlor and have already done this 4 times. Therefore 4oz of dichlor in a 400gallon pool is equivalent to 36 ppm chlorine and 33 ppm CYA. Therefore, this would indicate that I am now ready to switch to 6% bleach for my weekly shock. How much 6% bleach would I need to use to be equivalent to 1 ounce dichlor? My calcs tell me about 8.5oz??

That's interesting. That's pretty close to what my dealer has advised (a hybrid type system). Mine goes one step further in the sense that there's a silver stick involved also. Anyway, it makes me feel better that the system is working well for you. The only downside is I definitely don't want to be changing water every 3 months (I was hoping to stretch that out if possible). One advantage of a low chlorine system is that there's not as much accumulation of combined chlorines and CYA. Therefore, even though daily MPS is more expensive (as chem geek pointed out), it may mean fewer changes over time.

I'm not sure what the reasoning is. As far as I'm concerned I don't care about how much a particular system costs; I'll do whatever is safest and easiest. Also, I really don't have anything against chlrorine and have happily encountered it in many swimming pools over my lifetime. To me it makes sense to have as many safeguards as possible ie: ozonator, silver sanitizer etc. However, I see your point about the redundancy of his system. I'll use it until my next fill and then I'll try the dichlor then bleach method.

I am currently using a hybrid system ie: daily MPS before the soak (1 oz) followed by 0.5 oz dichlor after the soak. THere is a freshwater silver sanitizing stick in the filter. I am assuming that since I am using a "low-chlorine" method there will be less CYA accumulation? In fact, would this kind of method even justify the dichlor then bleach method?

So after extensive reading I'm beginning to realize that my dealer is advocating a hybrid system using the Nature2 MPS PLUS adding chlorine . The spa has both the silver sanitizer and an ozonator. The dealer wants me to use MPS (Renew) every day before use, and chlorine after use. Interestingly, the test strips that he provided do not have any ability to test MPS levels. I will need to obtain a second test strip to make sure that MPS is at proper levels. I guess I will need to experiment with the amount of MPS and chlorine that I am using. One thing, however, that I have figured out is that this type of system allows for lower levels of FC (perhaps as low as 1ppm). I will probably aim for 2-3 ppm to play it safe.

Actually, I just happened to read the manual that came with my silver sanitizer (freshwater Ag) and it gives a recipe for "Low Chlorine maintenance". In that recipe it also confirms daily use of MPS before and after using the tub. It also references a test strip to test for MPS level (although the test strip I received from the dealer does not test for MPS). This makes things really confusing as it is totally different than what Watkins advises or than what people on this forum are doing.

Just got a new Hot Springs Vanguard and am enjoying using it mainly in the evenings in the backyard. I noticed that it has a summer time mode and was wondering what the main usage of that would be. The explanation in the menu is that it totally shuts down the heating and the circulation pumps for 8 hours a day (eg: 7am to 3PM). At 3PM it would restart and would hopefully reach my preferred temp of 102F by evening time again. My question is would I use this setting to save energy? Or is this a method of having a cooler tub for use in the middle of the day? Or both? My understanding was that the circulation pump was very important in maintaining a clean tub and that it should be going 24/7. If it shuts down 8 hours a day would this compromise the cleanliness of the tub? Last point, I understand that obviously less energy is used during the 8 hours that heaters and pumps are off, but then the spa needs to get the water back to 102F by evening (doesn't this waste as much energy as was saved by shutting it off for 8 hours?) I live in Los Angeles where late spring and summer temps are in the 80-90F range most of the time; I like to use the tub at 102F.

Very cogent explanation about the dichlor then bleach method. It's slightly more involved but may be worth the effort if I don't need to change the water as often. How can you "prove" that this method reduces water changes by 50%? I don't mean to be super-geeky about it but what parameters do you use that indicates when the water has to be changed, and are those parameters demonstrably better when you do the dichlor then bleach method? I realize that CYA can be tested with strips and that the dichlor-then-bleach method would have a better chance of controlling residual CYA than the conventional methods, but does lowering this residual CYA necessarily reduce the frequency of water changes. Also, with regards to your point about muriatic acid: I assume that you could avoid sedimentation by dissolving it in a container of water before adding it to the spa? Last point: I fully understand that Hot Springs/Watkins has no great vested interest in selling their own products but I feel that they probably have a vested interest in supporting their dealers. Their dealers are counting on a lifetime of customer purchases of these products (whether or not the products are proprietary to Hot Springs) and would probably be significantly irritated if Hot Springs were to recommend buying bleach and muriatic acid from Home Depot (for 10-20X less cost than the branded stuff).

In the hotsprings manual they have a section in which they have bolded the word "DON'TS". Three of those items are routinely advocated in this forum eg: DON'T use household bleach; DON'T use muriatic acid to lower ph; DON'T broadcast or sprinkle the chemicals. I'm going to assume that the admonitions about bleach and muriatic acid are designed to have you purchase proprietary chemicals from the dealer or Hot Springs at 10X the price since it's obvious to me that many people on this forum have successfully ignored this.

The hotsprings manual specifically says not to use bleach. Yet this is widely recommended in this forum. Why the discrepancy?

I'm a bit confused about my dealer's chemical guidelines. They are using Leisure Time products: Here are their instructions: Before each Use: Add 1-2 oz of Renew (I think this is MPS) After each Use: Add 1/2 -2oz of Chlorine Weekly: Add 2 oz of Defender (I can't tell if this increases or decreases calcium hardness) Add 2-5oz of Renew depending on weekly use Use Test Strip to determine whether any adjustment to chlorine, PH or Alkalinity is necessary I'm not understanding why the extensive shocking with MPS? My understanding was that shocking is done in conjunction with heavy use, high bather load, high temperatures etc. According to these instructions I would be shocking the spa every day. The hot springs manual suggests "a weekly or monthly super chlorination 1.5 tsp dichlor/250 gal or double that amount for a shock". Incidentally, the hotsprings manual also advises against using bleach or muriatic acid.

Not sure I understand what you mean. If there are no appliances anywhere near the tub (and there won't be) what's the issue? Furthermore, even if somebody used an extension cord and dropped the radio into the tub wouldn't there be the same consequences? My question is whether or not the proximity to water splashing is somehow dangerous to the occupants in the tub. After all, even if water splashes on the outlet it's not as if the outlet is connected somehow to the tub (unless electricity arcs backwards into the tub).

Thanks for all the input. The situation at present is that the GFCI 110V outlet is about 2 feet away from the spa (directly at the conduit junction where the 230V wires came out. If I don't use any appliances near the spa while I'm in it can I assume that I will be safe? For example, I may plug in a radio or a lamp into that outlet but those applicance would certainly be 5-6 feet away from the spa. Is there any danger if water accidentally splashes onto that outlet? For example, if one of my kids is splashing around in the spa and water hits the 110 V outlet, is that dangerous? Even in the worse case scenario, if one drops the applicance in the tub isn't' there protection secondary to the GFCI nature of the outlet? After all, I'm sure there are plenty of idiots who use an extension cord and put their radios or lamps on the edge of the tub anyway. Those people are probably in as much danger whether the outlet is 2 feet or 6 feet away? Alternatively, I could simply turn that outlet off by shutting down its 20 amp breaker in the subpanel and only use it when I'm draining the tub with a sump pump. My final alternative is to hire another electrician to conduit it another 4-5 feet away from the tub. The only advantage of doing that is that water will not splash on it from the tub (not sure if that matters either way since its GFCI).

Well, if this is the case it would imply that not only do you have to dig a trench from the main panel to the spa but you have to dig a separate 10 foot trench from the spa to the outlet. I'm not sure what it costs in different parts of the country but here in So.Cal trenching for 10 feet can add hundreds of dollars to the final bill. A totally useless provision especially if you have no need for an outlet at all. Personally I intend to turn the breaker off and not to even use it.

Interesting. I have always heard that a outlet cant be within 6 feet, but I have never heard that part of them being required.... What is the reasoning for why a outlet would be required past 6 feet but no farther then 20 when there is a pool or spa there?? This is not "permanently installed". This is a portable hot tub. I think the permanently in the sentence included pool, outdoor spa or outdoor hot tub. Therefore, this section of the code seems irrelevant.

I'm Installing a 240Vspa and doing it with a permit. Concrete pad has been built and conduit trench dug from main electrical panel to the spa. The spa subpanel is adjacent to main panel. Inspector came out to inspect the trench and said that it was OK but that I must "Provide electrical GFCI outlet near spa". When I asked what "near" meant, he said that it didn't matter how close it was to the spa. My electrician was horrified at this and said he couldn't understand why he was being forced to provide this outlet. He pointed out that it's easy enough to run another wire through the conduit but he was against placing it right near the spa. He insisted the outlet should be at least 10 feet away from the spa and this would mean that he would need to dig another 10 foot trench (along the side of the yard where the spa is) with an additional cost of $500. I put him on the phone with the inspector and the inspector verified that the outlet could be right near the spa; in fact, at the exact spot that the conduit emerges on the side of the spa. The electrician ultimately complied but told me that it was dangerous to have a GFCI outlet so near to the water and that he had never heard of such stupidity. Who is right here? Is there a danger to having the outlet there? How could there be such a difference of opinon between these two. I'm happy to have an outlet near the spa in case I want to use a radio or light, but I'm a little hesitant after being scared by the electrician.

Update on the permit. The permit itself cost me $590. They're making me move both my gate latches another 4 inches higher up because the requirements changed from 56 inches to 60 inches above ground. Furthermore, they didn't like the way my gate doesn't swing shut by itself so I'm being asked to install new hinges. The gate work will cost me $150. I have also had to purchase an alarm for my french doors that lead outside ($40). I had to have the electricians dig the trench and then leave it for inspection (so they charged me $200 more to come back another day). During the inspection I was told that i needed an additional 110V GFCI outlet near the hot tub. My electrician claims that he will need to dig a separate 10 foot trench for this since the outlet should not be anywhere near the water. He wants to charge another $500. Keep in mind that this is a 230V tub and there is absolutely no reason to have a 110V outlet adjacent to it. As of now I have paid him an additional $100 simply to run the extra 110V wire and am wondering what to do next (subject of a separate post). I appreciate spa guru's observation about law suits, liability etc etc BUT make sure you know what you're getting into before pulling a permit. In addition to the extra costs I have had to take out time to have a pre-inspection, a trench inspection and a post-inspection (and that's assuming that I pass the post-inspection).

I forgot to mention that I had to go and do this permit myself because if I had had the electrician go and waste his day there he would have charged me a lot more. However, I realized once I got there that there is a problem when you do it myself. They made me sign a form in which it very clearly stated that I am the "Owner-Contractor" on this project and that if there is ever a problem I am the one that is ultimately liable. The form had about 10 lines in which I had to initial each line eg: "You certify that you understand that you are legally responsible for any loss of life, limb etc resulting from this project....". What this means is that even though I used a certified electrician, pulled a permit and did this "to code", it is I who will be sued if any mishap occurs. I think that people need to keep this in mind in case they think the buck stops with the person who did the work...it does not, it stops with you.

OK, so I went against my better judgment and actually decided that I would go through with the permit process (as a civic experiment). I went down to the Los Angeles Dept of Building and Safety about half an hour before they opened and waited outside. I was the first person through the door and received a ticket stub that read "001". Nonetheless, I still waited about 40 minutes before I was called. I was interviewed by someone who told me that my hot tub is actually regarded as a full fledged pool and I would have to go back home and prepare a "plan". I didn't go back home but simply went to another part of the building and prepared the "plan" (basically a schematic of my house with an illustration of the hot tub in the back yard). I then went back and was told to draw another number ("007") and cooled my heels for another hour. I was then sent back to the same man who told me that to approve my plan I had to pay a plan approval fee of $185. I was sent to a cashier counter where I waited for 20 minutes and paid. I was then sent back the same man and was now asked how much my entire project would cost including the cost of the hot tub. I told him that the hot tub would cost $8000 and the labor to install electrical and concrete pad would cost $2000. He sent me right back to the cashier where I paid a permit fee of $380. Thus far, I have paid $565. A few days later an inspector appeared at my house for a "pre-site inspection". At this time he told me that some mistake had been made by his colleagues back at the office because there was no reason for him to be there ie: he thought that the work had already been completed and didn't understand why he was sent there simply to see a backyard. He acted quite annoyed and told me to call him back when the electrical trench had been dug. He didn't give a damn about the concrete pad or whether or not the hot tub would actually be there on the day that he came back. This means that my electrician will have to come back another day to fill the trench and complete the connection to the spa (probably another charge for me since he now needs to extend the project). In the meanwhile I need to go around my "enclosure" and make sure that everything else will pass the inspection. So far I'm out about $800, lost a half day at the LABSD, another half day waiting for the inspector and will lose yet another half day when he returns. For those who contemplate pulling a permit for this, be warned.

My problem with getting a permit is not the cost or the inconvenience, but the fact that a lot of their stipulations are just plain stupid. For example, I would need to have both my backyard gates open outwards instead of inwards (in case a wayward child stumbles into my yard through this gate and drowns himself in the spa). My gate doors face the "wrong" way and I may need to change this if I pull a permit. The spa cannot be a certain distance from the fence in case a child hurls himself over the fence and drowns in my spa. This last provision is especially retarded since I am compelled by the permit to have a cover with a latch! I also need to have an unbroken fence all around the perimeter of at least 5 feet (I think I can comply with this one). I need to have an alarm installed over the French doors that lead into the yard in case a child goes through these doors and drowns himself in my spa. I was told by the electrician that they have one portable alarm that they simply move from job to job to comply with this provision. There may be other required imbecilities that I'm not even aware of at this time but would surely find out to my great detriment. I have no problem complying with reasonable requests but this stuff does not merit my compliance. I have hired a team that does tons of spas, are licensed for electricity and will do the job without a permit.

I just purchased a Vanguard and was given a 50 amp subpanel with it (30+20). For some reason, the guy who is installing the spa is telling me that he prefers the 60amp subpanel. I called the dealer and they told me that they "Never" use anything other than the 50amp one with the Vanguard. I got the 30+20 for free from the dealer but they refuse to dispense a 60amp one. Obviously I could purchase the 60amp from some other place, but is it worth it? I definitely want to do what's best and I don't care at all about the cost if it's going to provide a more reliable experience going forward. Also, is it a problem that the 50amp is split into 20+30 but the 60 amp would not? I don't know much about electrical installations. Any advice appreciated.

I finally pulled the trigger and purchased a Vanguard HS spa. The dealer asked me if I wanted "chlorine or bromine". I know nothing about either one of these options and was hoping that I could simply be told what to do ie: which one is best. I don't really want to become a spa water chemistry expert and was hoping that some knowledgeable forum members could simply direct me on this one. I do know that the Vanguard comes with a built-in Ozonater and a silver rod in one of its filters. I am willing to purchase whatever it takes to keep the spa clean and healthy. Any advice appreciated.

Dave, I live in a part of the country where "starter homes" cost over a million. How much can a spa add to your property taxes? This may be a significant concern in areas where the entire cost of a home is 65K and you are buying a spa for 10K. I doubt this is a real issue otherwise (not to say you didn't make me a little nervous with this!)