All Dealers And Consumers

[East TX Spa]

To all the fine folks that frequent this board, I would like to say this:

It is very obvious to anyone with common sense that there is a poster that lurks on this forum who is not credible. It is easily documented who he is and what he does.

In order to try and eke out a meager living by selling his re-branded generic spas to unsuspecting customers that fall prey to his self-created propoganda-laden website, he is reduced to spreading half-truths and outright lies about companies that are infinitely more successful than his. This is the typical "scare the sheep into buying from you" approach. Some unfortunate people will actually overpay for these run-of-the-mill spas that can be purchased for half of what he is selling them. These are the same people who see conspiracies lurking on every grassy knoll.

His sole mission on this board is to act as an agent provocateur. There is at least one on every board. His modus operandi is to project lies, fabrications, exaggerations, rhetoric in the hopes of eliciting a reaction from the professionals who have established themselves as leaders in the spa industry. The only way he can receive any acknowledgement is to do what infants do: cry at the top of his lungs while making a mess in the hope that someone will pacify him and engage him in mindless cooing and babbling. When adults present facts to him, he holds his breath and regurgitates the same drivel over and over and over and over..........ad nauseum.

I am going to adopt the same approach as I would towards any child that is manipulative, ill-tempered, immature, and deceitful: ignore him while laughing at his silly little antics while denying him the attention he craves. Sometimes you just have to hope that they can eventually grow into a trustful, honest, upstanding citizen.

Terminator

[Guzz]

Who on earth could you be talking about?

Good post!

[ClayC]

ClayC,

Is this the same person that sent me an email on 9/30/05, giving me links for the purchase of his spas. I thought was againest forum rules?

Clay

[spatech (the unreal one)]

ClayC,

Is this the same person that sent me the following email on 9/30/05, giving me links for the purchase of his spas. I thought was againest forum rules?

Looks like he's surfing the net for customers.

[Chas]

Normally I would agree. But now that he is a paid advertiser here, something or someone seems to be holding him on a tighter leash than normal. Perhaps it is the thought of how bad it would be to be banned from posting on a site for which you are paying for ads. Whatever it is, I think it might take him a bit longer to get himself banned here than usual. I don't even think anyone has a pool going this time- did I miss it?

But out of respect for a fellow web board helper who has the misfortune of having to live in Texas, I will scale back on responses. But when he posts an incorrect statment I will politely remind the shoppers how foolish it is to listen to somebody who sells a competing product. And I will post the correct info if I have it.

Shoppers: This man we are typing about does in fact sell hot tubs over the Internet. They might be just what you are looking for. But those of us who are here to help: those of us who give large amounts of time without the possibility of financial remuneration for it - spa owners and dealers alike - we would tell you that it is highly offensive to come here and read untruths and slams about the products which we believe in.

If he wants to type about the benefits of his product that is one thing. But it is entirely another thing to do the things he does.

[Chris H]

I didn't realize he was an advertiser. He won’t be banned anytime soon. The only reason why I come to this board is because of the crap he spews. I guess that is why he is around.

[Jim_The_Jim]

My sole reason for being here is because the consumers are at the mercy of sales people who really don't

know much about spas. They do know how to spew the sales pitches.

Somebody has to speak for the consumer.

[ClayC]

I'm sorry for my previous post, I thought the he may have been in violation of the following (quoted from the forum rules)

For obvious competitive reasons, individuals who operate forums or bulletin boards that compete with poolspaforum.com are not eligible to enroll. You agree to not leave signatures, URLs or text including blatant sales messages, solicitations, advertisements, derogatory comments about members, or self-promotion of any form encouraging members to visit a particular website or store. Poolspaforum.com editors will tend to error on the side of caution and delete questionable posts.

Sorry

Me Bad

[Chris H]

Oh he is in violation because he runs a competing web forum. I guess they don’t error on the side of caution. I guess they have a policy of, if you advertise with us you will not be banned.

[SpaMan]

Oh he is in violation because he runs a competing web forum. I guess they don’t error on the side of caution. I guess they have a policy of, if you advertise with us you will not be banned.

In all fairness to this forum rest assured that the mods are not in any bound to the rule of "if you advertise here you stay here" as one of our very close friends may be a mod here soon!

[Chris H]

In all fairness to this forum rest assured that the mods are not in any bound to the rule of "if you advertise here you stay here" as one of our very close friends may be a mod here soon!

You have close friends? Who may that be?

[SpaMan]

You have close friends? Who may that be?

GGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!! Hard to believ but yes I do and I cant tell you as its classified! LOL

and you guys are so mean to me Im thinkin I may need more hugs From Veronica and Amanda.

[Chas]

My sole reason for being here is because the consumers are at the mercy of sales people who really don't

know much about spas. They do know how to spew the sales pitches.

Somebody has to speak for the consumer.

Jim, You ARE a spa salesman.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Spaman,

You got your group hugs. One more cyber incident and your wife gets an anonymous call!!

[Veronica]

GGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!! Hard to believ but yes I do and I cant tell you as its classified! LOL

and you guys are so mean to me Im thinkin I may need more hugs From Veronica and Amanda.

BIG HUGGS to you!!!!! AND THE MRS. for good measure.....

ClayC,

Is this the same person that sent me an email on 9/30/05, giving me links for the purchase of his spas. I thought was againest forum rules?

Clay

Clay, I'm interested if you've made a decision or ruled any out in your spa purchase? I'm still deciding, but want desperately to get back in a tub, any observations in the last spa search days? Wet tests? etc...

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim, You ARE a spa salesman.

And you are a person who simple can't understand the full meaning of a sentence written in the English language. Try reading the whole sentence next time.

The board is full of sales people who don't have any understanding of spas, that includes guess who?

And that does include anyone who doesn't understand the full basics of the laws of physics.

As my friends who are engineers have stated in the past. "Don't worry Jim, there are still those of us who understand common sense."

My points are that consumers are suseptable to sales pitches, because they are written to evoke emotion that leads to a "close". Isn't that the words that sales people use? If a consumer buys strictly on emotion, then they are not seasoned shoppers who have been burned before.

If you are going to spend thousands of dollars of hard earned money, you might want to know exactly what it is that you are buying. Never trust what is on the surface with sales people, you need to know more than the sales person or you are going to be fooled by the tricks they know to extract your money.

A spa is not something that a spa owner is going to get rid of soon, because of the prices. It is going to be hanging around for some time, so you as a consumer might want to find out before you buy, not find out later that you made a huge mistake.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Normally I would agree. But now that he is a paid advertiser here, something or someone seems to be holding him on a tighter leash than normal. Perhaps it is the thought of how bad it would be to be banned from posting on a site for which you are paying for ads. Whatever it is, I think it might take him a bit longer to get himself banned here than usual. I don't even think anyone has a pool going this time- did I miss it?

But out of respect for a fellow web board helper who has the misfortune of having to live in Texas, I will scale back on responses. But when he posts an incorrect statment I will politely remind the shoppers how foolish it is to listen to somebody who sells a competing product. And I will post the correct info if I have it.

Shoppers: This man we are typing about does in fact sell hot tubs over the Internet. They might be just what you are looking for. But those of us who are here to help: those of us who give large amounts of time without the possibility of financial remuneration for it - spa owners and dealers alike - we would tell you that it is highly offensive to come here and read untruths and slams about the products which we believe in.

If he wants to type about the benefits of his product that is one thing. But it is entirely another thing to do the things he does.

I see that "he" has upset you to no end. Maybe that is because he is telling the truth.

Here is what I have found on the net. When people are unable to answer a question or to state any thing that makes any sense in contradiction to the facts presented, they always resort to the crap that you just posted. Why not offer some of your standard defenses?

You are resorting to the same crap that other have finally resorted to because they are so angry and they have no logical response to the truth that this "person" presents to the public.

I do feel sorry for you, but that is all, and it is not enough to stop the truth.

The facts is I don't sell anything on this forum, I simply tell the truth.

Here is some more truth:

Any consumer who purhases a hot tub without finding out what they heck they are doing can become a victim of needy and greedy sales people. The spa industry is full of absolute nonsense and consumers want what spas can do, so you need to find out what exactly it is that you are buying.

As an example, just lately I built four computers from parts. I researched mother boards, hard drives, ram chips, cases, monitors and all the parts until I was done. The end result is four computers that are excellent values with extremely powerful features. They are extremely stable and they all network well togther. It was not an accident, like some of the spa shoppers who wind up with decent spas by some random act of fait. It was because I am a seasoned shopper and have gained knowledge based upon my research.

By the way, I purchase all of my computer stuff over the net, and the customer service I have gotten is excellent. It just so happens that the Internet computer parts companies must service the customers better, because they do sell on the net. Isn't that obvious? These computer parts companies would not survive for a month if they didn't offer superior service. Does that sound familiar?

[Chas]

I got a message from a member here asking about paid advertising - and it caused me to look closer. Now I am confused.

Jim, are you paying for advertising on this site - either here or on spa search? You said, "click on the add(sic) below if you want more info" once, but there was no ad on my screen. However, I use Mozilla Firefox, and have popup ads blocked, so I made the assumption that there was an ad I simpy wasn't seeing.

Could you clear this up for us? I don't want to go around thinking you are a paid supporter of this site if you are not, and it would be unfair to the owners of this site for me to make any statements like that if it were not true.

My apologies for commenting on this without checking facts first, I generally don't like to do that...

Thanks

Chas

[Amanda]

The board is full of sales people who don't have any understanding of spas, that includes guess who?

And that does include anyone who doesn't understand the full basics of the laws of physics.

As my friends who are engineers have stated in the past. "Don't worry Jim, there are still those of us who understand common sense."

My points are that consumers are suseptable to sales pitches, because they are written to evoke emotion that leads to a "close". Isn't that the words that sales people use? If a consumer buys strictly on emotion, then they are not seasoned shoppers who have been burned before.

If you are going to spend thousands of dollars of hard earned money, you might want to know exactly what it is that you are buying. Never trust what is on the surface with sales people, you need to know more than the sales person or you are going to be fooled by the tricks they know to extract your money.

A spa is not something that a spa owner is going to get rid of soon, because of the prices. It is going to be hanging around for some time, so you as a consumer might want to find out before you buy, not find out later that you made a huge mistake.

Jim,

Once again you've elicited a response from me.

"And you are a person who simple can't understand the full meaning of a sentence written in the English language. Try reading the whole sentence next time." (Jim the Jim)

"That's not nice." (Amanda)

So.... um, enough of that.

I am really glad this forum is here for people to see how diverse their choices really are when choosing a spa from a company. There are a lot of slippery slopes to overcome... BUT not everyone is like the "scary monster salespeople" Jim speaks of. There are MANY reputable folks exited to help you when getting something as special as a spa. Unfortunatley there are SOME who are sharks/wolves/snakes... but

I think with todays technological advancement (getting a wealth of information to a person within minutes through their fingertips) and word of mouth, the scammers are being exposed. I hope they will be eliminated entirely but that I know is an uphill battle we can only do together across the entire industry.

I had NO IDEA I was supposed to be a physics major to be in spa sales postion!!!! Wow, I guess I've been pretty lucky lasting this long in the industry just listening to what people want and simply matching it up with what a company has to offer. But believe me when I say, I'm learning as much as I can- as fast as possible- to understand (and be able to answer questions about) anything and everything regarding many spas and the companies that offer them. My search for knowledge has nothing to do with "knowing more than a customer" so I can take advantage of them nor is it to slam the other company and belittle what they make. My quest for brainfood is so I can serve people faster, better, more efficiently and with modern grace and style. This includes not only the physics of a spa but a having compassion and understanding of a persons needs in adding a spa to their private sanctuary. And most importantly to me is respecting that need and nurturing it the best way I know how- with truth and a sense of humor.

Also... I will NEVER EVER "use a sales pitch". I happen to find that repulsive and the exact opposite of what I am doing with my chosen profession. I absolutely am NOT a "salesperson that will trick a suseptable consumer", but I am trustworthy not only on the surface but to the core. Please test me on this... I will pass with flying colors. I consider myself more of a teacher and student companion than a "salesperson". This is what I will always strive for and expect nothing less from others. For the regulars concerned about certain folks "tainting" the industry with "old school sales pitches"... I wouldn't worry too much about it. I see the change already happening. People research on the net, there are awsome folks in forums helping others watchout for the pitfalls that still exist... and I believe if someone simply takes the time to look around before they make a purchase, they will see clearly and be able to decide easily who they do not want to deal with.

I agree whole heartedly that people should know exactly what they are buying. It's not "just a spa", it's a way of life. A spa is a pretty amazing contraption that has the magic of taking water and making you feel better and be healthier in many ways. I hear all the time about people bing more relaxed, feeling better, healthier, more satisfied, less stressed, romanticly enhanced , and a ton of other stuff! They change your life... period! The people you purchase your spa from should know this and look forward to a long relationship with you. If you feel a company doesn't project an understanding of ALL of your needs... goquickly out the door till you find someone that does! A person isn't just buying the spa... it's the whole package (company and employees included). I also feel that the major reason a person should not get rid of their spa soon isn't because of the prices and being stuck with it, but rather keeping it because it makes them feel good, relaxed and happy.

And last but not least... I think things would be a whole lot more pleasant for EVERYBODY if we could focus on the positive, eliminate silly little insults, and show some respect. There are many of you that do this already, many that are still trying, and a few that simply don't get it. Amazingly intelligent people that simply just don't get it.

I'll close with... treat people like they already are the best they can be, and in time their best will be shown.

Patience is definately a virtue!

[Roger]

Jim,

Once again you've elicited a response from me.

Patience is definately a virtue!

Alot of us have been trying for several years Amanda to convince Jim his PR skills need serious improving. But he seems to think everyone else in this world is wrong and he's the only right person. His condencending attitude towards all the other salespeople except himself has been going on to long for him to change. You know what they say and even though Jim is no older than many of us here, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, unless it's a talented dog like me.

[ClayC]

Clay, I'm interested if you've made a decision or ruled any out in your spa purchase? I'm still deciding, but want desperately to get back in a tub, any observations in the last spa search days? Wet tests? etc...

Veronica,

I'm still trying to weed through all the BS and back stabing. I am very close to buying the Envoy by Hot Springs. I like the idea of washable filters that last for years (a true $ saver). But I think it all comes down to a "Wet Test" from local dealers. I think a local dealer is a key point (for warranty, parts etc.). With all the trouble you had, I see buying something over ther net or without a wet test could possibly become a big mistake and a true nightmare. I've already talked to local Hot Springs and Sundance dealers and plan on taking a wet test in both units (hopefully about the same time, to compare). I also plan on visting a couple other dealers. There is Home show in the area this weekend and if I get a chance I may go. There is a local dealer there that sells Caldera Spas (owned by the Watkins same company that makes Hot Springs). Whatwever you do just don't take one "Wet Test" with just one dealer, take several with different dealers. You need a basis to compare to. If you need to re-test then do it. We the comsumer's sould take all the time we need to decide. If a salesperson trys to push a spa down your throat, maybe you should not buy from them. Take your time, visit the manufacturer's sites, have questions post them in forums like this, do the research... the web is a great thing.

Read this guide, I found it very helpful.

http://www.spabuyingguide.com/spa-buying-g...ing%20Guide.pdf

Let me know if you find anything.

Clay

[stl-rex]

That guide is pretty good. Just remember it was written by a company that promotes Sundance and as I read it could see that fact in what was written.

[SpaMan]

To all the fine folks that frequent this board, I would like to say this:

It is very obvious to anyone with common sense that there is a poster that lurks on this forum who is not credible. It is easily documented who he is and what he does.

In order to try and eke out a meager living by selling his re-branded generic spas to unsuspecting customers that fall prey to his self-created propoganda-laden website, he is reduced to spreading half-truths and outright lies about companies that are infinitely more successful than his. This is the typical "scare the sheep into buying from you" approach. Some unfortunate people will actually overpay for these run-of-the-mill spas that can be purchased for half of what he is selling them. These are the same people who see conspiracies lurking on every grassy knoll.

His sole mission on this board is to act as an agent provocateur. There is at least one on every board. His modus operandi is to project lies, fabrications, exaggerations, rhetoric in the hopes of eliciting a reaction from the professionals who have established themselves as leaders in the spa industry. The only way he can receive any acknowledgement is to do what infants do: cry at the top of his lungs while making a mess in the hope that someone will pacify him and engage him in mindless cooing and babbling. When adults present facts to him, he holds his breath and regurgitates the same drivel over and over and over and over..........ad nauseum.

I am going to adopt the same approach as I would towards any child that is manipulative, ill-tempered, immature, and deceitful: ignore him while laughing at his silly little antics while denying him the attention he craves. Sometimes you just have to hope that they can eventually grow into a trustful, honest, upstanding citizen.

Terminator

Terminator,

Your absoloutely correct on this subject theres alot more to the story though, I strongly urge people do do a little research. I hope this stays on the board and our freedoms of speach upheld as I have posted my BUYER BEWARE 4 times and over 1000 people have read it I can verify to the moderator that all the information is current and correct and there's even more to the story since then. So I hope your point is well taken by every reader coming to this board. "the battle is over all we gotta do is pick up the pieces" (some wise guy once said that) Thanks for posting.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim,

Once again you've elicited a response from me.

"And you are a person who simple can't understand the full meaning of a sentence written in the English language. Try reading the whole sentence next time." (Jim the Jim)

"That's not nice." (Amanda)

So.... um, enough of that.

I am really glad this forum is here for people to see how diverse their choices really are when choosing a spa from a company. There are a lot of slippery slopes to overcome... BUT not everyone is like the "scary monster salespeople" Jim speaks of. There are MANY reputable folks exited to help you when getting something as special as a spa. Unfortunatley there are SOME who are sharks/wolves/snakes... but

I think with todays technological advancement (getting a wealth of information to a person within minutes through their fingertips) and word of mouth, the scammers are being exposed. I hope they will be eliminated entirely but that I know is an uphill battle we can only do together across the entire industry.

I had NO IDEA I was supposed to be a physics major to be in spa sales postion!!!! Wow, I guess I've been pretty lucky lasting this long in the industry just listening to what people want and simply matching it up with what a company has to offer. But believe me when I say, I'm learning as much as I can- as fast as possible- to understand (and be able to answer questions about) anything and everything regarding many spas and the companies that offer them. My search for knowledge has nothing to do with "knowing more than a customer" so I can take advantage of them nor is it to slam the other company and belittle what they make. My quest for brainfood is so I can serve people faster, better, more efficiently and with modern grace and style. This includes not only the physics of a spa but a having compassion and understanding of a persons needs in adding a spa to their private sanctuary. And most importantly to me is respecting that need and nurturing it the best way I know how- with truth and a sense of humor.

Also... I will NEVER EVER "use a sales pitch". I happen to find that repulsive and the exact opposite of what I am doing with my chosen profession. I absolutely am NOT a "salesperson that will trick a suseptable consumer", but I am trustworthy not only on the surface but to the core. Please test me on this... I will pass with flying colors. I consider myself more of a teacher and student companion than a "salesperson". This is what I will always strive for and expect nothing less from others. For the regulars concerned about certain folks "tainting" the industry with "old school sales pitches"... I wouldn't worry too much about it. I see the change already happening. People research on the net, there are awsome folks in forums helping others watchout for the pitfalls that still exist... and I believe if someone simply takes the time to look around before they make a purchase, they will see clearly and be able to decide easily who they do not want to deal with.

I agree whole heartedly that people should know exactly what they are buying. It's not "just a spa", it's a way of life. A spa is a pretty amazing contraption that has the magic of taking water and making you feel better and be healthier in many ways. I hear all the time about people bing more relaxed, feeling better, healthier, more satisfied, less stressed, romanticly enhanced , and a ton of other stuff! They change your life... period! The people you purchase your spa from should know this and look forward to a long relationship with you. If you feel a company doesn't project an understanding of ALL of your needs... goquickly out the door till you find someone that does! A person isn't just buying the spa... it's the whole package (company and employees included). I also feel that the major reason a person should not get rid of their spa soon isn't because of the prices and being stuck with it, but rather keeping it because it makes them feel good, relaxed and happy.

And last but not least... I think things would be a whole lot more pleasant for EVERYBODY if we could focus on the positive, eliminate silly little insults, and show some respect. There are many of you that do this already, many that are still trying, and a few that simply don't get it. Amazingly intelligent people that simply just don't get it.

I'll close with... treat people like they already are the best they can be, and in time their best will be shown.

Patience is definately a virtue!

I thought I was being polite to a "salesman" who is on the list.

I was not referring to you. The consumers can figure that out as easily as I have.

I think it is clear as can be to anyone with a brain that the fellow who is disliked the most by all

these sales people is the one who is telling the truth and trying to reform this industry from it's old crappy roots. A reformer is never ever going to be liked by the people who need to be reformed.

I find it to be much better to simply state the truth.

I do focus on the positive. I positively dislike slippery sales people who sell archaic products to unsuspecting and un-spa-educated consumers for outrageous profits. I positively back up everything I say with facts. I also have "insider" information on these companies from people who are connected to them.

I am (apparently) the only voice on here for getting consumers to "think" and not "fall for concocted sales pitches", that sound so wonderful. The only way this emotional driven market is going to change is by education. We are a nation of good people, and we need to treat each other with what is due them. I totally believe in following the Golden Rule, and giving to others what I have learned and not for the purpose of selling, but for the purpose of being who I am. I can't simply set back and allow what I know to be true to be held back. This is like having a gift from God and not using it and sharing it.

Luckily for the world there are more and more people who are weaned on desktops and laptops from childhood. The computer is familiar and freindly to them. Doing research on the net is going to be second nature to them, because that is what they are taught to do. Also, buying on the "net" is not scary to them as it is to people who are unfamiliar with what is going on today. I have found that the best values on anything can be found on the net, but you do need to know what it is that you are buying. You need to get an education on these things to get the industry to respond to what consumers really want.

The old fashoined, slippery, side stepping, sales pitches are just that. Going out of date.

I actually had high hopes for the one salesman, but he has totally disappointed me. I just have a very difficult time with someone who is that lost and is that blind.

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge. "

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."

Flannery O'Connor (1925-1964)

I am going to be on the road, delivering spas for a while, and only able to share intermittently.

I strongly suggest to you Amanda that you read what I have written in all the articles on hot tubs and spas.

You will benefit from it greatly, because of your attitude.

[Roger]

I strongly suggest to you Amanda that you read what I have written in all the articles on hot tubs and spas.

You will benefit from it greatly, because of your attitude.

There is alot of good information on Jims site, I will agree. But when you read it, as long as you are aware that it is his opinion, and there are others out there just as viable, you will get good value from it. You can not close your mind to thinking one mans thoughts are the only real truth because you then loose the proper approach to any investigation into a well rounded decision.

Life is Tough, and it's alot tougher if your Stupid.........Roger Daoust 2006