Considering Costco Cxi80 & Sundance Hawthorne

[cpuKEN]

We have been looking at getting a spa for the past 4 weeks or so and had pretty much settled on the Costco CXi80. The deck was just completed today so that leaves only having the 220 line run before we are ready.

Our local Costco had a Sundance Spa event that started today with the local dealer offering most of their Sundance line through Costco. Prices were OK but they were for tubs with minimum options. Visited the dealer showroom later in the day and they were willing to add many extras for slightly more then the Costco-Sundance offering.

We kinda liked the Sundance Hawthorne and the dealer will add lights, steps, cover, cover lift, ozinator, 24/7 circ. pump, setup and install and chemicals for $6,613 (plus tax).

Of course the Costco CXi80 would be $5,500 (plus setup fees , taxes and chemicals)

====================================

Here's my thought process:

Sundance Hawthorne

Pluses

+ Local dealer

+ Full foam insulation (potentially lower cost to operate)

+ extras (cover lift, 24/7 circ. pump

+ Sundance has a longer existence and reputation

Negatives

- Full foam insulation (harder to service)

- Only 3ry warranty

- No Costco satisfaction program

----------------------------------------------------------------

Costco CXi80

Pluses

+ Costco assurance (return if not satisfied)

+ 80 Jets

+ Lower cost to purchase

+ Potentially easier to service (perimeter insulation)

+ Lights, waterfall, steps, lots of jets standard

Negatives

- Curbside delivery (pay extra to have it moved and setup)

- No local dealer support

- Not a long history with company (Strong) or particular model

- No 24/7 circ. pump

========================================

unknown, how the jet power compares between the two models. Wife says she

doesn't really care if the jets are very strong and she refused to wet test any of them.

I'd like to hear your thoughts and ideas regarding this purchase.

I know there are those who are quick to dismiss The Costco CXi80 but there's always

the peace of mind knowing that if we are not happy... send it back for a full refund

(minus cost of putting curbside).

Thanks in advance.

Ken

[spatech (the unreal one)]

You'll get opinions from both sides but the Sundance will be the better quality spa IMO, cost less to operate IMO and comes with with service from a dealer. The Costco spa has the Costco return policy (assuming sending it back isn't a big hassle for you) and the lower price which I know is enticing because those spas are marketed to look good on paper but spread that price difference over the 10, 12, 15 years you'll want to won this and the price difference isn't big and worth settling on quality IMO. Besides, I know Sundance spas last that long but with Costco's history I'd need to see a spa sold by them consistently perform well for 4 or 5 years let alone a decade before I'd trust it and the current manufacturer selling spas through them has no real history in the industry to be judged by.

[arf1410]

You'll get opinions from both sides but the Sundance will be the better quality spa IMO, cost less to operate IMO and comes with with service from a dealer. The Costco spa has the Costco return policy (assuming sending it back isn't a big hassle for you) and the lower price which I know is enticing because those spas are marketed to look good on paper but spread that price difference over the 10, 12, 15 years you'll want to won this and the price difference isn't big and worth settling on quality IMO. Besides, I know Sundance spas last that long but with Costco's history I'd need to see a spa sold by them consistently perform well for 4 or 5 years let alone a decade before I'd trust it and the current manufacturer selling spas through them has no real history in the industry to be judged by.

By "costs less to operate" ? do you mean electricity costs, or other operational costs? For electricity, I would think almost for certain the CXi80 would use somewhat less electricity because its got 30% less water to heat - 400 v 545 gallons. I gotta believe 80%+ of the electrical costs are to heat water, rather than to run pumps

[hot_water]

Ken, I think you're looking at the tradeoff pretty objectively and have hit all the major points.

The Strong spa impresses me with its build quality, nice workmanship and solid feel. The cabinet is excellent... much better than I expected and IMO far better than anyone's standard offering that I've seen.

Sundance is a nice product but the bang for the buck is, IMO, a bit lacking compared to the CSXi80.

I strongly value serviceability and for that reason do not like full foam.

Strong Customer Support is great - as you can see we have Chad here on this board, as well as being available by phone. If you are a fairly self-sufficient type, you really shouldn't need a lot of support... maybe not any. It's not like you have to be an expert in computational fluid dynamics to run a hot tub.

The CSXi80's jetting is on the weak side. If you need Saturn-V thrust... this isn't it. I will eventually do something to modify mine for more oomph, but in the meantime it's ok because I actually run the jets very little and find I prefer 'quiet relaxation mode'. Chad helped owners out here by actually sending CSXi80 owners FREE replacement neck jets that shut off completely. It makes a HUGE improvement - so much quieter. Chad got the Company to start using those jets in production so if you choose a Strong it will almost surely come with them. I should point out that my comment on the jets being weak isn't shared by all... some think it's fine. This isn't my first spa, and my previous one had the aforementioned rocket thrust so I speak from that point of reference. It may be fine for you, but at least you're going in with your eyes open. I have no idea how the jets feel in the Sundance... did you wet test the model you're looking at?

No one has any real comparative data on energy use. I am in California. We've had a fairly cold winter (for CA, that is -- mid to upper 50s in the day, upper 30s to upper 40s overnight) and I believe I'm spending about $50-55. I use it three-four times a week and lately I've been in for over an hour at a time. I expect to spend $15-25 during Summer, and imagine my average monthly for the year would be around $30-40, maybe $45. I am a frugal type and use sleep mode, always turn off air control valves, etc. Cost is heavily dependent on your climate, and how much you use your spa. If it's really cold where you are and the spa costs too much to run, no big deal... send it back.

All the parts in the CSXi80 spa are industry standard stuff that you can buy, such as Waterway jets, Balboa controller/heater and Waterway Executive 56 pumps. Unless you have a catastrophic shell problem, you can keep your spa running as long as you would like to, just by replacing parts that may fail. As you point out, it's easy to do since there is no foam to excavate. I would bet dollars to donuts that you will be *very* pleased with the accessibility for service if you get a chance to see a CSXi80. If you do have a catastrophic shell problem - about the only thing that would be hard to repair, again.... send it back.

Sundance uses mostly proprietary parts that you have to buy from them. Some online sources have Sundance parts for sale, but I'm not sure if they have everything.... it's another consideration.

I do prefer the 24 hour circ pump. It's quieter, and the ozone is on 24 hours rather than only during filtration cycles. But really, it isn't a huge deal. I've had both systems now... they both work. I like the 24 hr system a bit better, though.

Too bad they haven't had the CSXi80 on sale for a while. I paid $4800, which really makes the price a strong (no pun intended) incentive.

I think Sundance is a very good spa, though. I shopped them before buying. I don't like foam, but otherwise it is a nicely made product. I'm sure you'll enjoy either one very much! It's a great luxury!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Strong Customer Support is great - as you can see we have Chad here on this board,

...and that's great but I doubt you'll ever see Chad come over to repair your spa under warranty. I have ALWAYS said that people who purchase spas from big box stores better be true DIYers because if you want to see your service person you'll just need to look into the bathroom mirror.

[hot_water]

By "costs less to operate" ? do you mean electricity costs, or other operational costs? For electricity, I would think almost for certain the CXi80 would use somewhat less electricity because its got 30% less water to heat - 400 v 545 gallons. I gotta believe 80%+ of the electrical costs are to heat water, rather than to run pumps

arf, the water volume isn't a big player in the energy use question. The water heater replaces the heat that is lost in order to keep the spa up to temperature. It's the loss that drives how much energy from the heater you need, not the volume. The volume of the spa does have a small effect on the loss, but it isn't much, not really significant. The only time the volume really hurts is when heating up the spa initially or after a refill. Clearly in that case it takes more energy to raise a larger volume up to temp than it takes to raise a smaller volume. But you're likeluy to refill only every 3-4 months.... not a huge deal.

You might also like to know that different manufacturers determine the volume of water in different ways... for instance, some use overflow volume rather than the volume when the tub is filled to the recommended level. It's hard to compare because the manufacturers might be measuring the volume differently. My first spa had the same volume rating as my current spa but I would say it held probably 20% more water!

[hot_water]

Strong Customer Support is great - as you can see we have Chad here on this board,

...and that's great but I doubt you'll ever see Chad come over to repair your spa under warranty. I have ALWAYS said that people who purchase spas from big box stores better be true DIYers because if you want to see your service person you'll just need to look into the bathroom mirror.

Well, I wouldn't expect Chad, or any factory CS manager, to make a service call.

But you can sure call him up and find out if Strong has a tech that they use in your area. If so, it's a non-issue. If not, you have to decide what that's worth to you.

Personally, I find it's often less hassle to repair stuff myself (as long as they send the parts!) rather than deal with service appointments and all that. Some may feel the same way, many may not operate on that wavelength and want a repair tech to take care of it. But you can't conclude that Strong doesn't have a tech that will support their products in any area until you call and ask.

[Roger]

No one has any real comparative data on energy use. I am in California. We've had a fairly cold winter (for CA, that is -- mid to upper 50s in the day, upper 30s to upper 40s overnight) and I believe I'm spending about $50-55. I use it three-four times a week and lately I've been in for over an hour at a time. I expect to spend $15-25 during Summer, and imagine my average monthly for the year would be around $30-40, maybe $45. I am a frugal type and use sleep mode, always turn off air control valves, etc. Cost is heavily dependent on your climate, and how much you use your spa. If it's really cold where you are and the spa costs too much to run, no big deal... send it back.

In Northern Minnesota expect 100-110 bucks a month or more if it's 50-55 in CA. Of course without a meter?????

[hot_water]

No one has any real comparative data on energy use. I am in California. We've had a fairly cold winter (for CA, that is -- mid to upper 50s in the day, upper 30s to upper 40s overnight) and I believe I'm spending about $50-55. I use it three-four times a week and lately I've been in for over an hour at a time. I expect to spend $15-25 during Summer, and imagine my average monthly for the year would be around $30-40, maybe $45. I am a frugal type and use sleep mode, always turn off air control valves, etc. Cost is heavily dependent on your climate, and how much you use your spa. If it's really cold where you are and the spa costs too much to run, no big deal... send it back.

In Northern Minnesota expect 100-110 bucks a month or more if it's 50-55 in CA. Of course without a meter?????

I was wondering how long it would take you to pop in.... you haven't missed a "Costco thread" that I know of .

It's clearly a lot colder, and a tub will thus consume more power, in a place like Wisconsin. Let's take a look.

From "average-temeraturedotcom" the average annual temp in San Jose, CA (where I live) for 2009 was 61.3F.

In Green Bay WI last year the average annual temp was 44.4F. No surprise, it's way colder in Cheeseland.

If you keep your water at 102F, you have to overcome a 102-61.3 = 40.7F air to water difference in San Jose,

compared to a 57.6F air-to-water difference in Green Bay. The difference between the two areas, as far as the spa heater is concerned, is 16.9F as an annual average.

That amounts to 100* 16.9/40.7 = 42% more severe in Green Bay compared to San Jose.

Heat transfer physics being what it is, you expect the heat loss to scale pretty much linearly with temperature. So you will expect to consume, over a year, 42% more electricity in Green Bay than you would in San Jose.

It will be a little lower than that, actually, because the pumps and such don't consume significantly more in the cold weather. But let's ignore that, since some people use the pumps a lot, and others much less so.

So if I'm paying $30 to $40 per month on yearly average (all that matters, really), and the utility rates were the same, then you would pay 1.42 times as much, or $43 to $57 annualized monthly cost in Green Bay.

But the rates aren't the same. My rates in CA are 22 cents per kW-hr, compared to rates in WI (or the national average, for that matter) of about half that... 11 cents. Actually in San Jose our friends at PG&E give us a tiered rate structure. So if your spa usage falls in a higher tier (almost always the case) then you are paying a heck of a lot more than 22 cents....I am, and my reported estimates include that... but let's forget that for the moment since I don't know if they have a similar tiered rate structure in Wisconsin. I'll just use the averages, to be safe.

So while you consume 42% more power, on average, in GB, that power costs you half as much as we pay in San Jose. In other words, you will probably actually PAY LESS to heat your spa in GB as compared to San Jose.

Those are the numbers. We get screwed on the cost of power in California. Even if you have a tiered structure in Wisconsin, I will guarantee you that CA rates are at least DOUBLE. But based on actual temperature data, you are not consuming twice as much power.

Again, these are annual averages, which is the only thing that makes sense to talk about when discussing spa operating costs.

But for fun, consider that January in Green Bay is the coldest month... average temp 15.6F. Here in San Jose, December is the coldest, average temp 50F. For the same 102F tub, SJ fights a 52F delta while in GB they have to heat against a whopping 86.4F delta. The difference is 62%. But again, the electricity, which is 50% as much, in GB more than makes up for it.

Obviously your climate is a big factor in the energy use of your outdoor hot tub. But the numbers are the numbers. Based on the real temperature data and electric rates, you're not going to see a 2x increase in costs over California. In fact, you will probably pay less in Green Bay since your rates are much better.

I say "probably" because, remember, the biggest factors are the cover and how much you use your spa. The rate of heat loss when the cover is off is huge. When the cover is off, there is about NO difference between spas... the heat loss happens at the water's surface.

[Mikey_in_NY]

Been reading this post with interest, and feel obliged to give my two penny's worth as I have the Sundance Hawthorne...

Ken - first of all I wouldn't let the Costco's 80 jets sway you over the Sundance's 44 jets. In the end how many jets do you really need? For me personally I find 44 plenty. You need to also consider the pump / jet ratio is factored in by the manufacturer when designing any particular tub to optimize jet performance. I don't know what the HP rating of the Costco pump(s) is/are, but the Sundance is listed as "Two 2.5 hp (1 @ 4.5 bhp*, 1 @ 4.8 bhp)" - for 'real world' power use the 2.5 hp figures.

You also mentioned the Sundance dealer would throw-in the LED lights and steps, and yet you list these as a "plus" for the Costco? Also, the Hawthorne does contain a waterfall, but the value of that is questionnable IMO.

Regarding full foam vs perimeter insulation I don't know. This is my first tub, and it hasn't yet sprung a leak (hopefully it never will!). From what more experienced posters say modern FF insulated tubs rarely leak, but the point on perimeter insulation in such an event is well taken.

Electric - I keep my tub at 97, and turn it up to 101 around an hour before using. Tub is used every day for around 30-40 minutes. I use a thermal blanket and turn off the air intakes when finished. Main pumps are programmed to cycle for 30 mins every 12 hours, but that can be adjusted up or down. Kwh prices here in NY are around $0.15. Last August/September my bill rose around $25 vs the previous (non-tub) year. The biggest increase I saw was January's bill which went up $70, but winters are cold here (average temp below freezing), and the tub is used every day. As others have said the volume of water is not directly proportional the the energy required to maintain the temperature, but is proportional to the energy required to heat up on the initial fill. One advantage of higher volume is that in cold conditions the water will stay warmer longer, assuming the surface area is similar that is.

If you do go for the Sundance then consider having a 60A circuit installed, as this will allow you to run both jet pumps and the heater all at once.

Please understand I'm not bashing the Costco - I have no experience with this tub, in fact I've never even seen one, and in the final analysis it may be just as good as the Sundance. I can only objectively comment on the Sundance, which I've only had for 7 months.

[DK117]

.22 in CA and .15 in NY? Wow does that explain a lot.

http://www.clarkpublicutilities.com/yourho...s/electricRates

.0765 for me. Thank cheap hydro power. Google even moved their server farm up to Hood River to leverage cheap electricity. But it wasn't until this thread that it clicked for me. I've been wondering ... waiting for that obscene electrical bill post hot tub purchase. It just hasn't happened ... maybe 10 to 15 bucks a month (no meter, just opinion observation.) Triple that bill, by virtue of cheaper electricity and I get similar numbers to hot_water.

A little off topic, but good discussion.

cpuKEN, if you could get the CSXi80 for $4800 it would be a no brainer. As it stands you'd probably be happy with either tub.

DK117

[cpuKEN]

.22 in CA and .15 in NY? Wow does that explain a lot.

http://www.clarkpublicutilities.com/yourho...s/electricRates

.0765 for me. Thank cheap hydro power. Google even moved their server farm up to Hood River to leverage cheap electricity. But it wasn't until this thread that it clicked for me. I've been wondering ... waiting for that obscene electrical bill post hot tub purchase. It just hasn't happened ... maybe 10 to 15 bucks a month (no meter, just opinion observation.) Triple that bill, by virtue of cheaper electricity and I get similar numbers to hot_water.

A little off topic, but good discussion.

cpuKEN, if you could get the CSXi80 for $4800 it would be a no brainer. As it stands you'd probably be happy with either tub.

DK117

Just put a $500 deposit on the Sundance Hawthorne (Cover, cover lifter, steps, ozonator, 24/7 Circ. pump, lights, stereo, startup chemicals, additional chemicals, delivery and setup.

I can say the entire spa purchasing experience was not a pleasant one. Hopefully I'll feel better with a little time passing and the joy of soon to be able to enjoy the purchase. I do hope the industry does change somehow where one doesn't feel like they are trying to buy a used car... lots of promises and bending of the truth...

Ken

[Mikey_in_NY]

.22 in CA and .15 in NY? Wow does that explain a lot.

http://www.clarkpublicutilities.com/yourho...s/electricRates

.0765 for me. Thank cheap hydro power. Google even moved their server farm up to Hood River to leverage cheap electricity. But it wasn't until this thread that it clicked for me. I've been wondering ... waiting for that obscene electrical bill post hot tub purchase. It just hasn't happened ... maybe 10 to 15 bucks a month (no meter, just opinion observation.) Triple that bill, by virtue of cheaper electricity and I get similar numbers to hot_water.

A little off topic, but good discussion.

cpuKEN, if you could get the CSXi80 for $4800 it would be a no brainer. As it stands you'd probably be happy with either tub.

DK117

Yeah - we get shafted on electric prices here, and the sad thing is I'm only about 15 miles away from the Niagara Falls hydro power plant!

[spawn]

.22 in CA and .15 in NY? Wow does that explain a lot.

http://www.clarkpublicutilities.com/yourho...s/electricRates

.0765 for me. Thank cheap hydro power. Google even moved their server farm up to Hood River to leverage cheap electricity. But it wasn't until this thread that it clicked for me. I've been wondering ... waiting for that obscene electrical bill post hot tub purchase. It just hasn't happened ... maybe 10 to 15 bucks a month (no meter, just opinion observation.) Triple that bill, by virtue of cheaper electricity and I get similar numbers to hot_water.

A little off topic, but good discussion.

cpuKEN, if you could get the CSXi80 for $4800 it would be a no brainer. As it stands you'd probably be happy with either tub.

DK117

Just put a $500 deposit on the Sundance Hawthorne (Cover, cover lifter, steps, ozonator, 24/7 Circ. pump, lights, stereo, startup chemicals, additional chemicals, delivery and setup.

I can say the entire spa purchasing experience was not a pleasant one. Hopefully I'll feel better with a little time passing and the joy of soon to be able to enjoy the purchase. I do hope the industry does change somehow where one doesn't feel like they are trying to buy a used car... lots of promises and bending of the truth...

Ken

Congrats Ken - The Hawthorne is a great spa - you will love it!

[hot_water]

.22 in CA and .15 in NY? Wow does that explain a lot.

http://www.clarkpublicutilities.com/yourho...s/electricRates

.0765 for me. Thank cheap hydro power. Google even moved their server farm up to Hood River to leverage cheap electricity. But it wasn't until this thread that it clicked for me. I've been wondering ... waiting for that obscene electrical bill post hot tub purchase. It just hasn't happened ... maybe 10 to 15 bucks a month (no meter, just opinion observation.) Triple that bill, by virtue of cheaper electricity and I get similar numbers to hot_water.

A little off topic, but good discussion.

cpuKEN, if you could get the CSXi80 for $4800 it would be a no brainer. As it stands you'd probably be happy with either tub.

DK117

Yeah - we get shafted on electric prices here, and the sad thing is I'm only about 15 miles away from the Niagara Falls hydro power plant!

Count yourselves lucky, gents.

I just looked up the PG&E tier structure that I pay here in CA. I mentioned that it was worse than 22 cents average figure I used.

It is. The top tier I pay, which is basically the spa, is costing me 40.577 cents per kW-hr. Yikes.

This sucks, but it does point out that that the spa is really not out of line in terms of energy consumption. If the utility company weren't criminals, it would be dirt cheap to run that thing here.

I am a little ticked-off that my rates are so nuts compared to yours. But happy for you.

I have to go make sure the lights are off now and unplug the unused chargers and parasitic appliances.

[Roger]

I was wondering how long it would take you to pop in.... you haven't missed a "Costco thread" that I know of .

It's clearly a lot colder, and a tub will thus consume more power, in a place like Wisconsin.

The only problem with your calculations is for some reason you used balmy Green Bay instead of Duluth Minnesota!!! Normaly I'd take offense being labeled as a cheese head. But I spose to you Californians over there is over there no matter where it is.

In order to facilitate more acurate data, I actualy looked it up a little different than you Hot. The average temperature for Nov-Mar in Duluth is 16.6 The average temp in San Jose is 51.2 Thats 3 times cooler here. Assuming the same tub in both locations could be as high as 3 times the cost to operate. But if you have double the cost per KWH............OK never mind. The reason I used just those 5 months is we have an average over the remaining 7 months closer to yours at 53.8 compared to 61 in San Jose. So even though the yearly average is closer the number is skeewed as the winter months drop to 3 times as cool. So I don't think you could calculate it on yearly average and be fair.

You said 50-55 there. I said 100-110 here. I think thats pretty close even with double the cost per KWH there for the 5 months beginning in Nov and going through Mar. Or at least closer than 13-17 bucks difference as you stated.

[Trigger]

====================================

Here's my thought process:

Sundance Hawthorne

Pluses

+ Local dealer

+ Full foam insulation (potentially lower cost to operate)

+ extras (cover lift, 24/7 circ. pump

+ Sundance has a longer existence and reputation

Negatives

- Full foam insulation (harder to service)

- Only 3ry warranty

- No Costco satisfaction program

----------------------------------------------------------------

Costco CXi80

Pluses

+ Costco assurance (return if not satisfied)

+ 80 Jets

+ Lower cost to purchase

+ Potentially easier to service (perimeter insulation)

+ Lights, waterfall, steps, lots of jets standard

Negatives

- Curbside delivery (pay extra to have it moved and setup)

- No local dealer support

- Not a long history with company (Strong) or particular model

- No 24/7 circ. pump

========================================

Ken,

I would not list jet count as a positive (or a negative). Jet count is useless. It's how the jets feel, thier placement and variety. I would go with the tub that gives you the greatest variety of jets.

Also, in a quality tub, full foamed is not a negative. If you are in a freezing climate I wouldn't consider anything but a quality full foamed tub.

Sundance is the better tub here.

[hot_water]

I was wondering how long it would take you to pop in.... you haven't missed a "Costco thread" that I know of .

It's clearly a lot colder, and a tub will thus consume more power, in a place like Wisconsin.

The only problem with your calculations is for some reason you used balmy Green Bay instead of Duluth Minnesota!!! Normaly I'd take offense being labeled as a cheese head. But I spose to you Californians over there is over there no matter where it is.

In order to facilitate more acurate data, I actualy looked it up a little different than you Hot. The average temperature for Nov-Mar in Duluth is 16.6 The average temp in San Jose is 51.2 Thats 3 times cooler here. Assuming the same tub in both locations could be as high as 3 times the cost to operate. But if you have double the cost per KWH............OK never mind. The reason I used just those 5 months is we have an average over the remaining 7 months closer to yours at 53.8 compared to 61 in San Jose. So even though the yearly average is closer the number is skeewed as the winter months drop to 3 times as cool. So I don't think you could calculate it on yearly average and be fair.

You said 50-55 there. I said 100-110 here. I think thats pretty close even with double the cost per KWH there for the 5 months beginning in Nov and going through Mar. Or at least closer than 13-17 bucks difference as you stated.

Hi Roger,

Sorry, I don't know why I fixated on Wisconsin instead of Minnesota. They do make some mean cheese, and you know how we Californians like to have wine and cheese out in the patio, under umbrellas for shade, in January.

The average annual Duluth temp is cooler than Green Bay (Cooler than GB!! My gawd man, I would move!) at 39.1F.

But your supposition that Duluth's temp is 1/3 of San Jose's and therefore the cost will be triple is not correct. The rate of heat loss is related to the difference between the hot water and the ambient, not just the ambient. I suspect you know this... but please let's not waste bandwidth arguing it... just look it up... it's fundamental.

And, of course you should calculate your costs on a yearly average basis! It's the only thing that makes sense. Your logic isn't sound. During your warmest 7 months, MY average is a lot higher than 61, which is a 12 month figure. What you're doing is shading the numbers to make your point... give me more credit than that. What if hypothetically, we considered a place where the temp was 102F for 11 months of the year, and 0F for the one remaining month? Does it make any sense to compute your energy cost based on the cold month? Of course not, you have to look at the yearly average, because the seasons, and hence the temperature pattern, repeats an annual basis. Anything other than annual averages skews the results.

We'll look at the coldest month, too. But first the annual average.

For 102F water and 39.1F Duluth, this difference is 61.9F Again, in San Jose, the temp is 61.3 so the difference is 40.7. There is then 1.52 times the average temp difference between the two areas. This means that the same spa in Duluth will lose 52% more heat than one in San Jose, over a year. My previous figure for Green Bay (another unreal cold place) was 42%, so you should expect about 10% more heat loss in Duluth compared to Green Bay.

It's not double, and it's not triple, Roger. It's 1.52 -- about 1-1/2 -- times as much in Duluth compared to San Jose. The numbers don't lie.

Now let's look at the electric rates. The Minnesota Power website shows that the rate there, as of mid-2009, is only 8.094 cents per kilowatt hour. My AVERAGE power rate is 22 cents... but my actual top tier rate (what I pay for my spa) is 40.577. I am paying 5 times what you pay. But again, Duluth MIGHT have a tiered rate structure, I don't know. So let's stick to the average rates ok? It helps your argument.

If I pay $x over a year to heat my spa, the bottom line is that you in Duluth will pay 1.52 x (0.08094/0.22) = 0.56 0r 56% of what I pay.

Your paying just over HALF AS MUCH as I pay, Roger. Not double, not triple. You pay LESS in actual dollars.

The coldest month in Duluth is 8.4F (brrrrrrrr) compared to 50F (aaahhhh) in SJ . The difference from water to air is 93.6F in Duluth v. 52F in SJ. That would be a ratio of 1.8, or 80% more energy use in Duluth. No surprise there.

But your COST in Duluth, considering the 22 cents I pay on average for electricity relative to your 8.094 cents, will be 1.8 x (.08094/.22) = 66% of what I pay.

66%. That's about 2/3 of what I pay. Again, not double. Duluth residents would pay LESS than I do.

Just for a laugh, let's look at the impact of my real 40.577 cent rate.

And let's also say that my AVERAGE annual cost isn't the $30-40 that I think it is. Let's say it REALLY IS $100 per month, just like some of you guys claim that my inexpensive, mediocre quality perimeter spa should be. Is that fair? Can you agree with $100 as my absolute max electric bill average increase over an entire year? It would be a lot more in the winter... but I'm not talking PEAK, I'm saying AVERAGE, $100 per month. $1200 per year.

So would that be fair?

Well in Duluth we established that the spa would consume 1.52 times the energy on an annual basis. But the actual rate I pay for those kilowatt hours is (8.094/40.577) or 19.9% as much!! So if I moved my spa to Duluth I would pay $100 x 1.52 x 0.199 = $30 to heat that horribly inefficient, mediocre, energy hog of a spa.

My spa. $30 per month. On average. $360 per year. In DULUTH. Isn't that more or less about what you claim your "good" spas cost on average?

Of course my average costs are not $100 per month. I have natural gas space heating, water heating, clothes dryer and cooktop. No AC installed here. Most of the year my total electric bill is barely $100.

Hmmm.... maybe those mediocre perimeter spas from Strong aren't so bad after all .

Numbers Roger, numbers... Not asking you to become a fan of perimeter spas or Costco or Strong... but can you at least try to temper the exaggerated claims about operating costs that just can't possibly be true?? Just a little bit??

[Roger]

Numbers Roger, numbers... Not asking you to become a fan of perimeter spas or Costco or Strong... but can you at least try to temper the exaggerated claims about operating costs that just can't possibly be true?? Just a little bit??

I still think your off. You have to consider the coldest 5 months of the year where the average is 16 not 30 or 40 but 16. Your power draw during those months would drive your yearly average KWH consumption up. Lets assume in San Jose you use 100 bucks a month all year to heat your spa, times 12 is 1200 bucks. In Duluth for the same tub you use 2 times that for 5 months and the same for 7 months assuming the price per KWH is the same, Thats 1700 bucks? Those 5 months happen to be the best for tubbin and argument could be made that it may even be more than double as we don't tub much in June, July, or August. which I will concede may not be double but at 500 per year, a more energy effecient tub here may well be why Costco and the like don't sell many, as the dealers sell on the fact that a few years is all it will take to offset a better tubs extra cost.

Who says I am not a fan of perimeter spas? There are a few out there that do a fine job of it and are comparable to a fully insulated tub. But I would never ever buy a poorly designed one, seen to many cost a hundred or more per month here. And I would never let that sway my desicion because it's easier to service, never.

Oh and I am on Lake Country Power, 40 miles west of that big ole lake that keeps Duluth allot warmer than here in the winter!! 10 degrees cooler is a pretty close average we use. Unless it freezes over which happens every 20 years or so.

[hot_water]

Numbers Roger, numbers... Not asking you to become a fan of perimeter spas or Costco or Strong... but can you at least try to temper the exaggerated claims about operating costs that just can't possibly be true?? Just a little bit??

I still think your off. You have to consider the coldest 5 months of the year where the average is 16 not 30 or 40 but 16. Your power draw during those months would drive your yearly average KWH consumption up. Lets assume in San Jose you use 100 bucks a month all year to heat your spa, times 12 is 1200 bucks. In Duluth for the same tub you use 2 times that for 5 months and the same for 7 months assuming the price per KWH is the same, Thats 1700 bucks? Those 5 months happen to be the best for tubbin and argument could be made that it may even be more than double as we don't tub much in June, July, or August. which I will concede may not be double but at 500 per year, a more energy effecient tub here may well be why Costco and the like don't sell many, as the dealers sell on the fact that a few years is all it will take to offset a better tubs extra cost.

Who says I am not a fan of perimeter spas? There are a few out there that do a fine job of it and are comparable to a fully insulated tub. But I would never ever buy a poorly designed one, seen to many cost a hundred or more per month here. And I would never let that sway my desicion because it's easier to service, never.

Oh and I am on Lake Country Power, 40 miles west of that big ole lake that keeps Duluth allot warmer than here in the winter!! 10 degrees cooler is a pretty close average we use. Unless it freezes over which happens every 20 years or so.

Too late. You said Duluth, I used Duluth. You wanna figure things for wherever you are, go ahead!

But it really isn't going to change the bottom line result, which is that you pay LESS in the frozen North than I do in Sunny CA. And the numbers I'm paying, even if I GIVE you an outrageous average cost of $100/month, are right in line with what you or anyone else claim to see with a "quality" spa where you live.

What else do I gotta do here???

As far as the use of averages, 5 months and 7 months and all that: Huh? Your math is screwy, you can't do that. Yearly cost is yearly cost. The effect of higher power draw during the coldest months is already acounted for in the averages. You cannot debate your way around the math. I hope you don't try that kind of "mathematical logic" with your monthly income on your taxes .

Roger, please re-read my post. If we put my spa in YOUR area, you would *never* pay twice what I pay. You would never even pay equal to what I pay. You always - -*always* -- would PAY LESS than I pay. Every month. No matter what. Your energy use is not quite double, in the worst month, and on average is 1-1/2 times mine. Your rates are much less, so you pay less. What's hard to understand?

I'm sure you have seen spas that cost $100 to operate in your neck of the woods. If you want to name names and encourage people NOT to buy one of those, I have no problem there. It deos seem outrageous, though. Are you sure someone didn't leave the cover off? Or perhaps take a bit of poetic license with that figure? If you're convinced it's good info, I'm sure folks would appreciate knowing what spa(s) these were. Based on the numbers though, I can tell you that it wasn't a Strong or a HydroSpa. Neither of those cost me that much here in CA and as you see, spas are significantly more expensive to run here than where you are.

So.... can I expect that you try to temper your propensity to toss out giant estimates and such, as you did on this thread, that are easily shown to be gross exaggerations? You're giving people wrong info and potentially causing them to make a choice that's not the best for them. Despite butting heads with you often, I don't think that's what you intend. It's what I call FUD and I hope you are starting to see why.

[Roger]

I'm sure you have seen spas that cost $100 to operate in your neck of the woods. If you want to name names and encourage people NOT to buy one of those, I have no problem there. It deos seem outrageous, though. Are you sure someone didn't leave the cover off? Or perhaps take a bit of poetic license with that figure? If you're convinced it's good info, I'm sure folks would appreciate knowing what spa(s) these were. Based on the numbers though, I can tell you that it wasn't a Strong or a HydroSpa. Neither of those cost me that much here in CA and as you see, spas are significantly more expensive to run here than where you are.

So.... can I expect that you try to temper your propensity to toss out giant estimates and such, as you did on this thread, that are easily shown to be gross exaggerations? You're giving people wrong info and potentially causing them to make a choice that's not the best for them. Despite butting heads with you often, I don't think that's what you intend. It's what I call FUD and I hope you are starting to see why.

They were a big box (like Costco) brand with a Jacuzzi name on them made by a company called Keys that went out of business that used to sell through Costco and a Master Spa and a few other brands. The store was Menards, a hardware building supply chain with the same business model. Buy old bulk, left over, seconds, manufactured specific products and sell cheap.

And no you can't expect me to change my opinion or attitude of telling and influencing people towords anything other than steering them away from box store purchasing of a product box stores have no right selling!! If it's sold at a big box chain it is JUNK....period!!

[hot_water]

And no you can't expect me to change my opinion or attitude of telling and influencing people towords anything other than steering them away from box store purchasing of a product box stores have no right selling!! If it's sold at a big box chain it is JUNK....period!!

I didn't ask to change you opinion. The spas you don't like might all fall apart tomorrow (I don't see how, but I guess it's possible). I asked you to try to scale back your misleading and blatantly incorrect claims regarding energy use, after showing you very clearly that your claims were unreasonable. I take it your answer is "no", and that really no argument will stop you from your shameless exaggeration and in some cases complete misinformation as you grind your axe. Ok... as long as we're clear.

Keys is out of business for a few years now, so that one doesn't really matter to new buyers. Since you mentioned Costco, have you seen any CURRENT Costco spas that show the energy use you claim? The reports from owners of the Strong all seem to indicate that no one is dissatisfied with their electric bill. Haven't seen any complaints from Calspa users (also from Costco) on energy use, either. As we've discussed, if you're seeing high bills in your area I would expect that most would be seeing high bills too, since your electric rates are among the least expensive in the Country and much cheaper than even the national average (about 11-12 cents).

Big box stores have "...no right selling"?? no RIGHT? That's a good one....

[Roger]

And no you can't expect me to change my opinion or attitude of telling and influencing people towords anything other than steering them away from box store purchasing of a product box stores have no right selling!! If it's sold at a big box chain it is JUNK....period!!

I didn't ask to change you opinion. The spas you don't like might all fall apart tomorrow (I don't see how, but I guess it's possible). I asked you to try to scale back your misleading and blatantly incorrect claims regarding energy use, after showing you very clearly that your claims were unreasonable. I take it your answer is "no", and that really no argument will stop you from your shameless exaggeration and in some cases complete misinformation as you grind your axe. Ok... as long as we're clear.

Keys is out of business for a few years now, so that one doesn't really matter to new buyers. Since you mentioned Costco, have you seen any CURRENT Costco spas that show the energy use you claim? The reports from owners of the Strong all seem to indicate that no one is dissatisfied with their electric bill. Haven't seen any complaints from Calspa users (also from Costco) on energy use, either. As we've discussed, if you're seeing high bills in your area I would expect that most would be seeing high bills too, since your electric rates are among the least expensive in the Country and much cheaper than even the national average (about 11-12 cents).

Big box stores have "...no right selling"?? no RIGHT? That's a good one....

I also have seen no data supporting anything other than what all box stores spas in the past have reported in this area for energy usage. Those past claims have been extremly high energy usage, most times more than double a high quality dealer tub. Untill someone reports different here in this area I have no choice but to continue and believe past reports. The business model hasn't changed so I dout the tubs will be much different if at all.

You can call it shameless exageration, baltantly incorrect or missleading if you'd like, I prefer to call it, using past history and local experience to influence my opinion and not speculation where no history exsists. Have you seen any current Costco spas energy reports for Northern Minnesota? I am getting some data and so far it's not looking good. This one is in the southern part of the state.

[hot_water]

And no you can't expect me to change my opinion or attitude of telling and influencing people towords anything other than steering them away from box store purchasing of a product box stores have no right selling!! If it's sold at a big box chain it is JUNK....period!!

I didn't ask to change you opinion. The spas you don't like might all fall apart tomorrow (I don't see how, but I guess it's possible). I asked you to try to scale back your misleading and blatantly incorrect claims regarding energy use, after showing you very clearly that your claims were unreasonable. I take it your answer is "no", and that really no argument will stop you from your shameless exaggeration and in some cases complete misinformation as you grind your axe. Ok... as long as we're clear.

Keys is out of business for a few years now, so that one doesn't really matter to new buyers. Since you mentioned Costco, have you seen any CURRENT Costco spas that show the energy use you claim? The reports from owners of the Strong all seem to indicate that no one is dissatisfied with their electric bill. Haven't seen any complaints from Calspa users (also from Costco) on energy use, either. As we've discussed, if you're seeing high bills in your area I would expect that most would be seeing high bills too, since your electric rates are among the least expensive in the Country and much cheaper than even the national average (about 11-12 cents).

Big box stores have "...no right selling"?? no RIGHT? That's a good one....

I also have seen no data supporting anything other than what all box stores spas in the past have reported in this area for energy usage. Those past claims have been extremly high energy usage, most times more than double a high quality dealer tub. Untill someone reports different here in this area I have no choice but to continue and believe past reports. The business model hasn't changed so I dout the tubs will be much different if at all.

You can call it shameless exageration, baltantly incorrect or missleading if you'd like, I prefer to call it, using past history and local experience to influence my opinion and not speculation where no history exsists. Have you seen any current Costco spas energy reports for Northern Minnesota? I am getting some data and so far it's not looking good. This one is in the southern part of the state.

There's plenty of comments from Strong spa owners in the other mega threads, Roger. You just continue to ignore it, or discount it. Just like your math... if it doesn't support your point it's not legit.

Very disappointing. I guess I expected too much.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

There's plenty of comments from Strong spa owners in the other mega threads, Roger. You just continue to ignore it, or discount it. Just like your math... if it doesn't support your point it's not legit.

Very disappointing. I guess I expected too much.

When Infinity was selling through Costco Roger, myself and others said the same things we are now due to the spa entries through Costco that preceded Infinity. The new Infinity owner's response was the SAME things the Strong owners are saying now. After they were out a couple years the tune changed. It'll take a couple years before I put much stock in the claims the Strong owners are making. You of course will dispute that logic saying Strong shouldn't be lumped in with the rest but I'm not going to ignore Costco spa history. Time will tell (and its not like Strong had a real history to stand on before Costco) and I'll stay skeptical until there is reason not to be.