cpuKEN Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Here is a set of rules outlined by a spa maker in my area. On the surface they make sense but as we all know, things that sometimes make sense on paper can turn out to be not so clear cut in reality. Here goes: ======================================================= #1 Always buy a spa that has a Non-Computer Control System * ·There is nothing on a spa that requires a computer to operate. * ·The only one who benefits from spa computers is the repairman. #2 Always buy a spa that circulates all of the time * Stagnant water is usually unhealthy. * Stagnant water requires more maintenance. (4 times more chemicals & 12 times more time) * Turning a pump off and on reduces the pump life. #3 Always avoid buying a spa with a 2-Speed pump * They are unacceptably noisy when you are trying to relax in the spa at night. They can also be heard inside the house. * They cause the water to overheat during the summer time unless turned off during the day. * They are expensive to operate. The newer technology in the spa industry is gradually phasing out the 2-speed pump with its high operating cost. #4 Always buy a spa that pushes the water through the filter * No correctly engineered water filtration system sucks through the filter. * Suction type filters require considerably more cleaning maintenance and expense. * Restricting the water coming to a pump reduces its pumping ability. (It’s called a pump not a sucker) ==================================================== Your thoughts? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Arctic Dealer Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Hi Ken, it sounds like this guy is simply selling his own product by bashing the competition. He is picking up on things his tub has and then telling you this is the only way it should be and any tub not like this is bad. I would prefer not to pick his arguement apart point by point because if i did then i would just sound like i was selling my product and this isnt what the board is for. My advice would be to visit different dealers, listen to what they all have to say and then make your own mind up as to what method of construction and what dealer you think is best. Also make sure you wet test anything before you buy it, remember you wouldnt buy a car without a test drive. Happy shopping. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ps558 Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Here is a set of rules outlined by a spa maker in my area. On the surface they make sense but as we all know, things that sometimes make sense on paper can turn out to be not so clear cut in reality. Here goes: ======================================================= #1 Always buy a spa that has a Non-Computer Control System * ·There is nothing on a spa that requires a computer to operate. * ·The only one who benefits from spa computers is the repairman. #2 Always buy a spa that circulates all of the time * Stagnant water is usually unhealthy. * Stagnant water requires more maintenance. (4 times more chemicals & 12 times more time) * Turning a pump off and on reduces the pump life. #3 Always avoid buying a spa with a 2-Speed pump * They are unacceptably noisy when you are trying to relax in the spa at night. They can also be heard inside the house. * They cause the water to overheat during the summer time unless turned off during the day. * They are expensive to operate. The newer technology in the spa industry is gradually phasing out the 2-speed pump with its high operating cost. #4 Always buy a spa that pushes the water through the filter * No correctly engineered water filtration system sucks through the filter. * Suction type filters require considerably more cleaning maintenance and expense. * Restricting the water coming to a pump reduces its pumping ability. (It’s called a pump not a sucker) ==================================================== Your thoughts? Ken 1. Non computer control system. All new spas from manufactures use a pc board to control the spa. I wonder if he is still using air operated sytem with relays and timers? 2. both types of filtering work wether its 24/7 circ or timed filter cylces 3 This one if cost for him Single speed pumps cost way less than a dual speed pump. this also does not give you a option of running the pump on low speed for a softer therapy. Its either on full power or off. Bad idea to me. Most spas come with at least 1 dual speed pump. If he using a 24/7 circ pump the big jet pumps should run at all or only 30 seconds or so when starting a filter cylce. the pump itself is not noisy it is the water movement that creates sound. Jet pumps depending on horsepower can use alot of electricity. 4 both filtration systems work in spas wether its a non bypass system or filter and suctions. The only down fall to non bypass system is jet pump horsepower ratings are lower because of restricting water flow through a filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north_of_boston Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Here is a set of rules outlined by a spa maker in my area. On the surface they make sense but as we all know, things that sometimes make sense on paper can turn out to be not so clear cut in reality. Here goes: ======================================================= #1 Always buy a spa that has a Non-Computer Control System * ·There is nothing on a spa that requires a computer to operate. * ·The only one who benefits from spa computers is the repairman. #2 Always buy a spa that circulates all of the time * Stagnant water is usually unhealthy. * Stagnant water requires more maintenance. (4 times more chemicals & 12 times more time) * Turning a pump off and on reduces the pump life. #3 Always avoid buying a spa with a 2-Speed pump * They are unacceptably noisy when you are trying to relax in the spa at night. They can also be heard inside the house. * They cause the water to overheat during the summer time unless turned off during the day. * They are expensive to operate. The newer technology in the spa industry is gradually phasing out the 2-speed pump with its high operating cost. #4 Always buy a spa that pushes the water through the filter * No correctly engineered water filtration system sucks through the filter. * Suction type filters require considerably more cleaning maintenance and expense. * Restricting the water coming to a pump reduces its pumping ability. (It’s called a pump not a sucker) ==================================================== Your thoughts? Ken Sounds like your salesman only sells spas that don't have computer controls, don't have 2-speed pumps, only have pumps that circulate all the time and pushes water through the filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Royal Spas? ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavalier Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Royal Spas? ! Ken, What has been posted above to refute your initial post is a how great Spas are constructed today. Shop around and you will likely not purchase from whoever gave you that info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Here is a set of rules outlined by a spa maker in my area. On the surface they make sense but as we all know, things that sometimes make sense on paper can turn out to be not so clear cut in reality. Your thoughts? Ken He skipped the most obvious rule. Just before #1 it should have said "Rule #1: Always buy my spa" before he continues his list of the ways his spa is different as if there is something wrong with the other 99% of spas sold who don't follow his path. The list is part salesmanship and partly flat out B.S. such as "4 times more chemicals & 12 times more time" (totally untrue) or "No correctly engineered water filtration system sucks through the filter" when I've seen well Engineered filter systems but then again they aren't his so I guess it doesn't count if they're not done by his Engineer or Uncle or whoever designed theirs 20 years ago. If you like their spa and dealer then go ahead and purchase but don't buy it because it is "the answer". It's just a regional spa made by someone who thinks he has all the answers but we could just as easily argue he just froze his spas in time while others have progressed . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey_in_NY Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 #4 Always buy a spa that pushes the water through the filter * No correctly engineered water filtration system sucks through the filter. * Suction type filters require considerably more cleaning maintenance and expense. * Restricting the water coming to a pump reduces its pumping ability. (It’s called a pump not a sucker) ==================================================== All of the spa's I've seen (not too many to be fair) 'pull' (or suck) water through the filter(s) via the circ pump and/or main pumps, so to say that this system is not "correctly engineered" seems total BS to me. The reverse of this is to obviously push water through the filter(s), but the only way to do this is with a fully closed, pressurised system, which a hot tub clearly is not. At the end of the day it doesn't matter whether water is pushed or pulled through the filter - it's still being filtered either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poolman18 Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 I will have to agree with Arctic UK and make your own decisions and wet testing is a great idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE SPA GUY Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 wow. is he selling you a spa from the 80's , alot of old technology. I would go talk to other dealers and ask them about there tubs . find a dealer you are comfortable with. If you have read any posts here you should be able to see what is really going on with the spas made of today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
north_of_boston Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 I will add to that a bit, if it's OK. Every spa manufacturer has something unique about his spas. Not necessarily better or worse, but unique. The best thing to do is study out your situation. You're not buying a necessity of life ; the roof of your house won't cave in, your car engine won't fly apart or have its wheels fall off, and you won't starve to death if you don't purchase a spa right now. Research, research, research, wet test, plan, ask questions, research. Then decide and buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Ummmmmmm when you push water through a filter, wouldn't then all the crap (leaves, sticks, dirt, dead skin) in your water get sucked through your pump?......LOL Ouchkabbibles. Didn't see that comin did ya Royal Spas!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Posted February 5, 2010 Report Share Posted February 5, 2010 Here is a set of rules outlined by a spa maker in my area. On the surface they make sense but as we all know, things that sometimes make sense on paper can turn out to be not so clear cut in reality. Here goes: ======================================================= #1 Always buy a spa that has a Non-Computer Control System * ·There is nothing on a spa that requires a computer to operate. * ·The only one who benefits from spa computers is the repairman. #2 Always buy a spa that circulates all of the time * Stagnant water is usually unhealthy. * Stagnant water requires more maintenance. (4 times more chemicals & 12 times more time) * Turning a pump off and on reduces the pump life. #3 Always avoid buying a spa with a 2-Speed pump * They are unacceptably noisy when you are trying to relax in the spa at night. They can also be heard inside the house. * They cause the water to overheat during the summer time unless turned off during the day. * They are expensive to operate. The newer technology in the spa industry is gradually phasing out the 2-speed pump with its high operating cost. #4 Always buy a spa that pushes the water through the filter * No correctly engineered water filtration system sucks through the filter. * Suction type filters require considerably more cleaning maintenance and expense. * Restricting the water coming to a pump reduces its pumping ability. (It’s called a pump not a sucker) ==================================================== Your thoughts? Ken Lemme guess, these 4 rules describe thier exclusive product to a "T" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpuKEN Posted February 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2010 Even though I probably will not be purchasing the spa described with these 4 rules, let me play Devils Advocate for a moment and rather then automatically just dismiss these points (like most replies have), I was expecting some honest discussion of the various points. Let me start with these two below: #1 Always buy a spa that has a Non-Computer Control System * ·There is nothing on a spa that requires a computer to operate. * ·The only one who benefits from spa computers is the repairman. To me a part of this actually makes sense. The more bells and whistles you have the more chances that something can eventually break. Having never owned a spa, I don't know the reliability nor the cost of these computer controllers... are they $600, $800, more? If there exist some basic components that can be used instead of fancy computer controlled ones, at some level doesn't it make sense that these more basic components will, over the life of a spa, be more reliable? Certainly less costly to replace. #2 Always buy a spa that circulates all of the time * Stagnant water is usually unhealthy. * Stagnant water requires more maintenance. (4 times more chemicals & 12 times more time) * Turning a pump off and on reduces the pump life. This spa company is not the only one to employ the 24/7 water circulation technique. Again, to a newbie like myself, when I first heard this... it sort of made sense. Use a low power pump dedicated to just circulating the water (to enhance filtration). Since it is a small motor, it's less costly to operate and you are getting more effective filtration since the spa is always filtering. With regard to the less chemicals... Maybe it's only 2-4 times less. I'm sure they will tend to over state this. The other point of having a pump turn on and off, on and off... seems logical to me that this would shorten the life span. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 5, 2010 Report Share Posted February 5, 2010 Even though I probably will not be purchasing the spa described with these 4 rules, let me play Devils Advocate for a moment and rather then automatically just dismiss these points (like most replies have), I was expecting some honest discussion of the various points. Let me start with these two below: #1 Always buy a spa that has a Non-Computer Control System * ·There is nothing on a spa that requires a computer to operate. * ·The only one who benefits from spa computers is the repairman. To me a part of this actually makes sense. The more bells and whistles you have the more chances that something can eventually break. Having never owned a spa, I don't know the reliability nor the cost of these computer controllers... are they $600, $800, more? If there exist some basic components that can be used instead of fancy computer controlled ones, at some level doesn't it make sense that these more basic components will, over the life of a spa, be more reliable? Certainly less costly to replace. #2 Always buy a spa that circulates all of the time * Stagnant water is usually unhealthy. * Stagnant water requires more maintenance. (4 times more chemicals & 12 times more time) * Turning a pump off and on reduces the pump life. This spa company is not the only one to employ the 24/7 water circulation technique. Again, to a newbie like myself, when I first heard this... it sort of made sense. Use a low power pump dedicated to just circulating the water (to enhance filtration). Since it is a small motor, it's less costly to operate and you are getting more effective filtration since the spa is always filtering. With regard to the less chemicals... Maybe it's only 2-4 times less. I'm sure they will tend to over state this. The other point of having a pump turn on and off, on and off... seems logical to me that this would shorten the life span. Ken The reliability of a computer micro proccessor controller has passed air controled relays as they have progressed in reliability. A small 24/7 filtration pump that moves 8-10 GPM for 24 hours moves 12,960 gallons. A 90GPM jet pump running for 4 hours moves 21,600 gallons. Which filters the water better? Both methods of filtration work fine with 24/7 falling behind in volume of water actualy filtered, but getting back even with slightly less power (it runs all day versus 4 hours) and 24/7 Ozone if the tub is so equiped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpuKEN Posted February 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2010 The reliability of a computer micro proccessor controller has passed air controled relays as they have progressed in reliability. A small 24/7 filtration pump that moves 8-10 GPM for 24 hours moves 12,960 gallons. A 90GPM jet pump running for 4 hours moves 21,600 gallons. Which filters the water better? Both methods of filtration work fine with 24/7 falling behind in volume of water actualy filtered, but getting back even with slightly less power (it runs all day versus 4 hours) and 24/7 Ozone if the tub is so equiped. Thanks for the detailed reply, that's the sort of information I was hoping to get. It helps me and I sure others, better understand what's going on and educates many other's new to the spa world, how different systems actually work and equips us with details that will help us better evaluate competitive approaches. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spawn Posted February 5, 2010 Report Share Posted February 5, 2010 A small 24/7 filtration pump that moves 8-10 GPM for 24 hours moves 12,960 gallons. A 90GPM jet pump running for 4 hours moves 21,600 gallons. Which filters the water better? Both methods of filtration work fine with 24/7 falling behind in volume of water actualy filtered, but getting back even with slightly less power (it runs all day versus 4 hours) and 24/7 Ozone if the tub is so equiped. Thinking about 24/7 filtration circ pump vs no circ pump I have read that another advantage is that you avoid additional on/off cycles for the jet pumps. On the other hand, I have read that even with a 24/7 circ pump you should cycle the jet pump on a couple of times per day anyway to clear out water that could otherwise become stagnant in the lines to the jets. So in the second case, you still have the same number of on/off cycles, it is just that the jet pump is running less since the circ pump is doing the filtering. How reliable are circ pumps? Are they pretty much bullet proof or do they go bad and have to be replaced over time? I am know it "depends", but do you tech guys ever have to replace circ pumps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 The reliability of a computer micro proccessor controller has passed air controled relays as they have progressed in reliability. I gotta question this one Rog.buddy, pal. The controls for my own hot tub are old fashion air switch controls. I built them almost 20 years ago. I think I've had a $10 latching relay go out in all that time (if a relay goes out on the newer digital controls you can be looking at hundreds $). Oh, and I built it out of used parts. Course, I'm switching over to electronic digital in the next week or two :-) . Finally found something that will work, properly, on a wooden hot tub. The big advantage is the possible programming it will allow me...and I'm hoping the thermostat will have tighter tolerances...seem to recall I might be able to program that too. Circ pump vs. low speed seems to be a wash. Yes it's harder on the on the 2 speed pump turning on and off, but I've haven't experience circ pump lasting as long. The "fewer chemicals line is a "crock"! Even if a pump is only filtering 2 hours a day, there isn't enough time for the water to get even close to something that could be called stagnant.....hey wait, my own tub only filters 2 hours a day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted February 6, 2010 Report Share Posted February 6, 2010 The reliability of a computer micro proccessor controller has passed air controled relays as they have progressed in reliability. I gotta question this one Rog.buddy, pal. The controls for my own hot tub are old fashion air switch controls. I built them almost 20 years ago. I think I've had a $10 latching relay go out in all that time (if a relay goes out on the newer digital controls you can be looking at hundreds $). Oh, and I built it out of used parts. Course, I'm switching over to electronic digital in the next week or two :-) . Finally found something that will work, properly, on a wooden hot tub. The big advantage is the possible programming it will allow me...and I'm hoping the thermostat will have tighter tolerances...seem to recall I might be able to program that too. Circ pump vs. low speed seems to be a wash. Yes it's harder on the on the 2 speed pump turning on and off, but I've haven't experience circ pump lasting as long. The "fewer chemicals line is a "crock"! Even if a pump is only filtering 2 hours a day, there isn't enough time for the water to get even close to something that could be called stagnant.....hey wait, my own tub only filters 2 hours a day OK Doc, i'm gona give you this but, the reliability of chip controlled spa pacs has come a long ways. And the problems with air controlls seems to be as numerous as electronic. But this could also be the air controlled systems I work on are all very old, obsolete and just plain wore out. I replace a controll panel once in a while but not that often and yes they do cost more than some air line and a few fittings and or relay. But air stuff is harder to get seems like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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