News Flash

[Jim_The_Jim]

News Flash. Consumers Reports just announced that the best prices and the best service is available only from Internet shopping sites.

That is not news to me. I buy most all of my stuff on line and the service is always better than "brick and mortar" stores.

The convenience alone should be the final decision maker. I hate going out and being barraged by sales people on commission.

[jmendoza17]

News Flash. Consumers Digest just announced that the best prices and the best service is available only from Internet shopping sites.

That is not news to me. I buy most all of my stuff on line and the service is always better than "brick and mortar" stores.

The convenience alone should be the final decision maker. I hate going out and being barraged by sales people on commission.

Thanks for the tips

[Stevie]

News Flash. Consumers Digest just announced that the best prices and the best service is available only from Internet shopping sites.

That is not news to me. I buy most all of my stuff on line and the service is always better than "brick and mortar" stores.

The convenience alone should be the final decision maker. I hate going out and being barraged by sales people on commission.

Pretty "broad statement" once again from Mr.Gruver. Is this with regards to any item ever sold or directly targeted at spas? Do you have a specific link to this opinion?

"I hate going out and being barraged by sales people on commission."

Can you explain Jim how this statement above is any different than a potential spa shopper going to any spa forum that you are not banned from yet or your own website and being attacked there? Personally, I don't see a difference other than one I have to drive to and one I need to go to my computer for?

[jmendoza17]

Pretty "broad statement" once again from Mr.Gruver. Is this with regards to any item ever sold or directly targeted at spas? Do you have a specific link to this opinion?

"I hate going out and being barraged by sales people on commission."

Can you explain Jim how this statement above is any different than a potential spa shopper going to any spa forum that you are not banned from yet or your own website and being attacked there? Personally, I don't see a difference other than one I have to drive to and one I need to go to my computer for?

Not sure I'd be brave enough to buy online after my last experience.

[Roger]

Not sure I'd be brave enough to buy online after my last experience.

Didn't Jim say last week and hasn't he been saying all along that Consumers Digest was a crock. Any rating that they did on anything was bought and payed for and so it was bogus.

[flibotte]

"News Flash. Consumers Digest just announced that the best prices and the best service is available only from Internet shopping sites."

That's a very broad statement. I wonder if that is a direct quote or if someone is paraphrasing. I like how it is in the form of a news flash, like something just happened and there was a tipping point and now eBusiness is better. Jim, do you have a link to the article, I would like to read it.

[Dr. Spa]

Actually, since at least February 2004, he's called it "consumer fraud".

Didn't Jim say last week and hasn't he been saying all along that Consumers Digest was a crock. Any rating that they did on anything was bought and payed for and so it was bogus.

[Trigger]

There is no doubt that there are good business's on the internet. There are also some very poor quality operations out there. Folks who are considering making internet purchase should research the company.

Say for example a hot tub, (personaly, I'd stay away from the internet for somehting like this), but if one was to shop on the internet, I'd google them for bad reveiws. If you new the owners name, you should include that too, say for example using a completely made up name, you would google

"bad customer service Tim Orjuma" Or whatever name

Also, if you google a business, pay attention to the URL address, some deceptive sites will pepper the searchengines with thier product, but if you pay attention, they bring you all to the same company run website.

[Stevie]

Didn't Jim say last week and hasn't he been saying all along that Consumers Digest was a crock. Any rating that they did on anything was bought and payed for and so it was bogus.

I was saving that for his rebuttal... Seems he picks and chooses to fit his stance don't ya think?

[Guzz]

I don't understand why anyone would buy a big ticket item sight unseen. A photograph of an item can be very misleading. Thats why I also don't understand why anyone would buy a Thermospa, they see a good presentation, that is very misleading, but do not actually see the spa until it is in their backyard.

[Stevie]

I don't understand why anyone would buy a big ticket item sight unseen. A photograph of an item can be very misleading. Thats why I also don't understand why anyone would buy a Thermospa, they see a good presentation, that is very misleading, but do not actually see the spa until it is in their backyard.

Laziness / wealthy / uncaring / unknowing...the ability to sit in front of their screens without having to get up. That's my best guess...

[Brulan1]

Laziness / wealthy / uncaring / unknowing...the ability to sit in front of their screens without having to get up. That's my best guess...

Thermospa advertisement would seem pretty darn convincing from a consumer point of veiw. That TV commercial sure sucked me in. Anyhow being a more knowledeable dealer I would know better.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Thermospa advertisement would seem pretty darn convincing from a consumer point of veiw. That TV commercial sure sucked me in. Anyhow being a more knowledeable dealer I would know better.

If you as a spa retailer are not getting in on the Internet and learning how to do service across the country, you are going to go bye bye.

I am sorry, it is Consumer Reports and they discussed the survey that they took and the research involved. Consumer Reports is legit. CD is not.

I had a "senior moment". I am allowed one or two of those once in a while.

It is impossible for brick and mortar stores to offer both service and price, because something has to give to afford the physical space of a store.

A warehouse out in the country, away from high population costs nothing compared to a showroom and you have to pay those commissions to those sales guys. Thermo "IS NOT AN INTERNET STORE". They follow the Kirby Vacuum cleaner sales methods from 40 years ago. The advertising alone is an immense cost that they are charging with the spas, then they pay huge commissions to the sales people. They are overpriced because of the huge costs they have decieded to use in their "experimental marketing".

Let me tell you about hot tub advertising. It is nothing like advertising for a liquor store or a furnature store.

It is like taking a huge shot gun to try and hit a very small target. You still pay for all the "impressions" , the "pellets" and the means to get the word out, but at any one time there are like 1/1000 of spa shoppers to furnature store shoppers. spa/furnature. The cost for spa advertising is very high per unit. When I was using normal advertising I bugeted in $300 to $500 per spa for total advertising. With the net is is more like $50 per spa. The store I had was 5300 sq ft, but it was no longer needed as the Internet sales took over.

Are you getting the picture? So, if you can put in much better service in the picture and even pay a premium for out of state service, you are still costing less than any regular brick and mortar style of business. That is why the Internet is taking over on the sales of most items. We are the oldest Internet spa and hot tub store still running, and that is not by accident. We are the original pioneers of this and we did it by superior products and superior service. As much as you guys try to paint a story of two people who we got rid of as customers and being of any meaning, we have our customers supporting us in every way because of the report we have with them. We still have the best customers service, not perfect, because I realize that is impossible, but it is better than most brick and mortar stores can afford to do.

To give a value comparison. We just sold a Super Custom Magnum Timberlake to an customer who dumped his Manhattan from TS. He paid an enormouns amount of money for the Manhattan with lots of cheap bullet jets and three smaller pumps. It was like $18,000 for not even half the spa compared to the Magnum: $14,300 for the highest end spa made today. Nobody can compete with that, NOBODY.

If you had any idea the level of quality componenets and the total cost to manufacture that spa, you would understand. It takes 4 days of work at 10 hours per day, to finsish it and fine tune it. Our rep Neal was just here and found out first hand just how amazing that product is and how hard it is to produce.

If it was sold in a store it would have to sell for at least $23,000 on special sale relative to a Hot Spring, Jacuzzi or Sundance markup. Stores have to make money to pay the overhead.

By reducing overhead and increasing volume, the mom and pop stores are getting more and more sparse, and in many small communities they are all gone. Eventually, the major manufacturers will be selling through a few super larger Internet retailers, because that is where all this is heading and the service will be just as good or better as the Consumer Reports was stating.

It is a very different market these days.

I don't understand why anyone would buy a big ticket item sight unseen. A photograph of an item can be very misleading. Thats why I also don't understand why anyone would buy a Thermospa, they see a good presentation, that is very misleading, but do not actually see the spa until it is in their backyard.

Since you asked.

That is where we come in. We have found ways around that, site unseen, problem. The biggest way is to offer the product in a way so that when the customers get it, it is better than they imagined. It is more comfortable than they imagined, and has better therapy. That is something we do all the time. The other thing is to understand your product and all the competitive products better than anyone else. I don't know why sales people are so lazy that they don't do that. How on earth do you compare your products in a way that you can sell against them?

There are other issues that we have overcome, but I ain't gonna give that away. Having experience with every body type and every type of install has something to do with it and having a return policy that is more than generous.

[Jim_The_Jim]

If you don't think that consumers aren't buying over the net, take a look a the Costco link in this list.

It has over 7,000 reads. The Costco spas are Internet spas. This is what is happening.

http://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?showforum=7

[Roger]

I am sorry, it is Consumer Reports and they discussed the survey that they took and the research involved. Consumer Reports is legit. CD is not.

I had a "senior moment". I am allowed one or two of those once in a while.

I'm sorry this is a far a I made it, the rest was jus blah,blah,blah!!!!

[pg_rider]

Jim_The_Jim wrote "We are the oldest Internet spa and hot tub store still running, and that is not by accident."

May I ask how many spas, ballpark, you sell in a year? Not to say that more is better, I'm just curious how your business model compares to, say, an average size brick-and-mortar spa company.

Jim_The_Jim also wrote "We just sold a Super Custom Magnum Timberlake to an customer who dumped his Manhattan from TS. It was like $18,000 for not even half the spa compared to the Magnum: $14,300 for the highest end spa made today. If it was sold in a store it would have to sell for at least $23,000 on special sale relative to a Hot Spring, Jacuzzi or Sundance markup."

So you're saying that if you sold your spa in a traditional store you'd retail it at $23k, more than twice a comparably sized and equipped Sundance, Hot Spring, Caldera, etc sitting right next to it? Holy moly! How can you HONESTLY say your tubs are more than twice as good? Not trying to pick a fight -- I just think it's kind of ludicrous to make such a claim. I've read your site and I do believe you offer some good information, but I just can't grasp how you think your tub would be worth TWICE a comparable tub...

I know you're going to say your tubs have no comparison but let's be honest -- a bunch of fiberglass and electric pumps assembled together just don't differ THAT much!

[Stevie]

"Having experience with every body type ..."

Nahhhh, I'm not going there.....

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim_The_Jim wrote "We are the oldest Internet spa and hot tub store still running, and that is not by accident."

May I ask how many spas, ballpark, you sell in a year? Not to say that more is better, I'm just curious how your business model compares to, say, an average size brick-and-mortar spa company.

Jim_The_Jim also wrote "We just sold a Super Custom Magnum Timberlake to an customer who dumped his Manhattan from TS. It was like $18,000 for not even half the spa compared to the Magnum: $14,300 for the highest end spa made today. If it was sold in a store it would have to sell for at least $23,000 on special sale relative to a Hot Spring, Jacuzzi or Sundance markup."

So you're saying that if you sold your spa in a traditional store you'd retail it at $23k, more than twice a comparably sized and equipped Sundance, Hot Spring, Caldera, etc sitting right next to it? Holy moly! How can you HONESTLY say your tubs are more than twice as good? Not trying to pick a fight -- I just think it's kind of ludicrous to make such a claim. I've read your site and I do believe you offer some good information, but I just can't grasp how you think your tub would be worth TWICE a comparable tub...

I know you're going to say your tubs have no comparison but let's be honest -- a bunch of fiberglass and electric pumps assembled together just don't differ THAT much!

You are not too far away, why don't you come up and see for yourself? Then you can post for all to read. It would be a very open way for someone who owns a Sundance to see the difference. I have a SCF M ready to test. I will also show you the difference in design and all the things that we do extra to our products. Seeing is believing. The Sundance doesn't really compare at all. What is in the Sundance is very different. It is not "comparably equipped", not even close. We are always honest and that is the secrete to our success.

Give me a call and come on up and I'll take you to lunch. It will be fun for you to visit our humble facilities and see first hand. If somebody told you otherwise, I think it would be good for you to give an outside and biased towards the Sundance report. I think you will understand the difference really fast after a wet test and seeing what we do in person.

I am going on a trip really soon, right on Thanksgiving to pick up 10 spas and visit my mother. Be back by Friday of next week. So, come before or after.

We have had people drive over 2000 miles round trip to come and wet test and buy, because they wanted to see first hand. What we have is nothing like any competitive product. We don't have any competition with the SC spas at all. Many people have flown in to wet test and buy. It is nothing like what these "spa professionals" have led you to believe.

The shell on average is over twice as thick as the Sundance, The pumps are twice as strong and there are three main jet pumps and one smaller jet pump. The air injection and turbo air is not on the Sundance, The control box is super strong and has a 7 year warranty. The framing is twice as strong, the jetting is more than twice as expensive to put in. The insulation is 5 times the cost of a Sundance, and the Ozone system is much stronger and better. But putting it on a forum is one thing; having a Sundance owner come and see first hand, especially after owning a current Sundance model would be very enlightening for you and for the readers when you post your evaluation.

I have made this "challenge" available to lots of people including many dealers who have never showed up. They always balk at the "showdown". Why not be different and show up. It is less than a two hour drive and you can combine it with an evening in Denver or something.

[pg_rider]

I will certainly take you up on the offer as I'm just a big fan of tubs in general and like to try as many as I can. And FWIW, I'm not a Sundance fanboy at all -- in fact, I think it's one of the more "boring" tubs out there for the price in terms of jet variety. Of course, it has other qualities that made it the right tub for me, but I do wonder about how good other types of seats/jets might feel...

[Brulan1]

You are not too far away, why don't you come up and see for yourself? Then you can post for all to read. It would be a very open way for someone who owns a Sundance to see the difference. I have a SCF M ready to test. I will also show you the difference in design and all the things that we do extra to our products. Seeing is believing. The Sundance doesn't really compare at all. What is in the Sundance is very different. It is not "comparably equipped", not even close. We are always honest and that is the secrete to our success.

Give me a call and come on up and I'll take you to lunch. It will be fun for you to visit our humble facilities and see first hand. If somebody told you otherwise, I think it would be good for you to give an outside and biased towards the Sundance report. I think you will understand the difference really fast after a wet test and seeing what we do in person.

I am going on a trip really soon, right on Thanksgiving to pick up 10 spas and visit my mother. Be back by Friday of next week. So, come before or after.

We have had people drive over 2000 miles round trip to come and wet test and buy, because they wanted to see first hand. What we have is nothing like any competitive product. We don't have any competition with the SC spas at all. Many people have flown in to wet test and buy. It is nothing like what these "spa professionals" have led you to believe.

The shell on average is over twice as thick as the Sundance, The pumps are twice as strong and there are three main jet pumps and one smaller jet pump. The air injection and turbo air is not on the Sundance, The control box is super strong and has a 7 year warranty. The framing is twice as strong, the jetting is more than twice as expensive to put in. The insulation is 5 times the cost of a Sundance, and the Ozone system is much stronger and better. But putting it on a forum is one thing; having a Sundance owner come and see first hand, especially after owning a current Sundance model would be very enlightening for you and for the readers when you post your evaluation.

I have made this "challenge" available to lots of people including many dealers who have never showed up. They always balk at the "showdown". Why not be different and show up. It is less than a two hour drive and you can combine it with an evening in Denver or something.

Can you post sum pictures up before I travel 2000 miles? I want pictures of every aspect.

[Trigger]

Can you post sum pictures up before I travel 2000 miles? I want pictures of every aspect.

well first off you'll get top rate packing and delivery like this:

Jim, in this forum calls a lot of spas crap. Well, to be fair, Jim.this looks like the biggest pair of floaters in the bowl.

Want a two bit tub, and a two bit operation? he's your guy.

That's not duct tape and trash bags neithier. That's a super high end packing.

[Brulan1]

well first off you'll get top rate packing and delivery like this:

Jim, in this forum calls a lot of spas crap. Well, to be fair, Jim.this looks like the biggest pair of floaters in the bowl.

Want a two bit tub, and a two bit operation? he's your guy.

That's not duct tape and trash bags neithier. That's a super high end packing.

OMG LOL is he going to do what I think he is?

[Trigger]

OMG LOL is he going to do what I think he is?

It's okay. He saw it done in a Roadrunner cartoon once and it worked great!

[Brulan1]

It's okay. He saw it done in a Roadrunner cartoon once and it worked great!

Hopefully he represents the coyote and he doesn't die doing this.

[Tom]

News Flash. Consumers Reports just announced that the best prices and the best service is available only from Internet shopping sites.

A search of CosumersReports.org gave no hits on hot tubs. Jim, please cite your reference.

Moderators: in the event that this claim is not substantiated within a reasonable period (24 hours), I suggest we delete the topic.