My Current Spa Search - Amazing Discovery!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Second, an unanswered question from the above dealer comments. What happens if I do move out of state? Would the closest HS dealer not do my warranty work? It is not my fault I didn't buy from them - I didn't live anywhere near them at the time of purchase. I know what my dealer's response would be but maybe she is unique in the industry.

That is a totally different scenario as you stated yourself. In that case you can call the manufacturer after your move or find the new local dealer where you move to and you should have no problem getting warranty service.

[Wannago]

Second, an unanswered question from the above dealer comments. What happens if I do move out of state? Would the closest HS dealer not do my warranty work? It is not my fault I didn't buy from them - I didn't live anywhere near them at the time of purchase. I know what my dealer's response would be but maybe she is unique in the industry.

That is a totally different scenario as you stated yourself. In that case you can call the manufacturer after your move or find the new local dealer where you move to and you should have no problem getting warranty service.

But spatech, as stressed in the previous posts, the new local dealer is in no way obligated to provide warranty service, as they did not sell this tub. Since providing warranty service is such a money-losing venture, which is why dealers NEED to build in such high profit margins, I would expect that he WOULD have a hard time getting warranty support from this dealer??

[spatech (the unreal one)]

But spatech, as stressed in the previous posts, the new local dealer is in no way obligated to provide warranty service, as they did not sell this tub. Since providing warranty service is such a money-losing venture, which is why dealers NEED to build in such high profit margins, I would expect that he WOULD have a hard time getting warranty support from this dealer??

No way, they would if they wanted to keep their dealership and I can't imagine a dealer actually saying "no" in such a case. Now there may be a few rouge dealers out there who might try to say that but while manufacturers understand a dealer refusing to provide warranty coverage for a spa where the customer chooses to go across town (or 2 hrs away) to get it cheaper it's a different story in the other scenario stated. The manufacturer would absouletly insist they cover a spa for someone who just moved into the area so you might have to leave that out of your "100 things wrong with spa dealers" handbook.

[Wannago]

meh...I see it differently. It would cost this "new" dealer no more money at all to provide service to me, who bought from 2 hours away (for whatever reason...let's just go with "for a much cheaper price"), than it would for this same dealer to provide service to an owner who moved in from another province. There is absolutely no difference at all, other than a word I used earlier...SPITE.

And...as previously clarified to me "Like many spa companies, D1 is starving for dealers. They aren't going to cancel a dealer's contract if they refuse to perform service on your spa." That said, if D1 (or anyone else) wouldn't cancel the dealerhsip for not honoring MY warranty, simply put, because I didn't buy from them, I would hardly think they would cancel the dealership for not honoring the warranty on any other customer's tub who didn't buy from them. It's the same thing.

You might argue that it is just morally wrong of me to pull such a sleazeball move on my local dealer. However, what is more sleazier....charging an exhorbitant amount higher than a dealer less than 2 hours away, or simply trying to be a somewhat thirfty consumer, buying a very expensive appliance, in the middle of a recession?

?

[JerimiahR]

I'd love to open up my own hot tub mega-store and emporium, carrying all the major brands, competing directly and fiercely with the local boys.

I really think you should consider calling a spa manufacturer (I'd say Master would be the right fit) to open up a showroom in your area so you can impliment your vision.

I hope that was a sarcastic joke.

I'll tell you all this. With Hot Spring dealers I've never seen this to be a problem. The reality is, even with as much as dealers generally charge for service calls, they generally are just trying to break even on their service departments. It's that simple. It's not a profit based service. Without having a good service staff, nobody will ever buy another hot tub from you, period. So you run your service staff and hope to break even, while keeping your customers as happy as possible. It's a tricky balance for sure.

As far as warranty service goes. I've had Hot Spring dealers in other states call us when one of our customers moved and took their spa with them. They'll usually get in touch with us and have us fax over copies of the original purchase documents and serial numbers so that they have the proper paperwork to submit to Hot Spring for warranty claims. I've not seen much of a problem before.

I can't imagine a good dealer outright refusing the averange customer's service requests (let alone warranty service). Simply put, if a manufacturer had lots of complaints that dealer 'Y' would never service anyone's spa that was under warranty, I think they'd find someone else who wanted to start a hot tub store...

Ultimately, business model & attitude come from the top down. Be it manufacturer to dealer, or dealer to employees. This is the case in any business type.

Our dealer tries to go above and beyond when we can, simply because we know it's the service end of things that brings us customers. Word of mouth advertising is worth a ton more than anything else. We do free water analysis (at a tune of something like $5 a pop for our cost) with a computer system. We try to make sure our staff is always much more knowledgeable than our competitors about not only our product, but water chemistry issues and such. Simply put, we've sold new hot tubs to folks who originally bought their first spas elsewhere. Simply because in the end, they felt we served them better, and wanted to give us their business.

I know our chemicals are more expensive than some of the stuff our competition sells. But I guarantee you we sell loads more product than they do. Just walking into their stores you can tell this. We've got shelves covered in different products, they just display spas, stoves, exercise equipment, etc.

In the end, whomever you buy a spa from Wannago, expect to get from them no more than you get from them before the sale.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

You might argue that it is just morally wrong of me to pull such a sleazeball move on my local dealer. However, what is more sleazier....charging an exhorbitant amount higher than a dealer less than 2 hours away, or simply trying to be a somewhat thirfty consumer, buying a very expensive appliance, in the middle of a recession?

I don't blame you for wanting to buy it from the cheaper dealer as its not like you're talking about $300 but if you can't understand why the local dealer isn't going to service you then you are either not listening to the reasons given (because they don't fit your agenda) or you're lacking in business sense.

If I were you I would probably buy from the distant dealer ($5k is a huge difference, regardless of whether its US$ or Cndn$) and then pay him a travel fee for any warranty service needed. The amount you are saving will more than make up for any fee he charges but he will have to be the one who services it.

[Wannago]

I think that's what I intend to do.

I know I can sound quite obstinate, but I was just trying to make the point, and highlight the real reason why the local guy would be reluctant to honor my warranty. While you guys did clarify the costs and logistics associated with a warranty call - any warranty call, the real reason, in my scenario, would be based on a more "personal" motive. I DO understand it, and wish the manufacturers would somehow get more involved or do things differently to either address the warranty expenses/issues, or the price gouging issues. I am confident I will be taken care of, no matter which dealer I buy from. One dealer (per brand) per city is the root of this. I bought my car from a nearby dealer, but take it to another dealer in another part of the city for warranty work, simply because I like them better. It should be the same with tubs.

If I were a dealer, I would probably feel the same way. Still isn't right though.

[Dr. Spa]

meh...I see it differently. It would cost this "new" dealer no more money at all to provide service to me, who bought from 2 hours away (for whatever reason...let's just go with "for a much cheaper price"), than it would for this same dealer to provide service to an owner who moved in from another province. There is absolutely no difference at all, other than a word I used earlier...SPITE.

There's a huge difference. It's called a dealership contract. A dealer is generally obligated, by contract, to do warranty service for a customer that moves into his area. He is NOT obligated to do warranty work for someone that "went down the road" and bought a spa.

The odds of someone moving into your area and the dealer getting "stuck" with doing the warranty work are about equal with a customer moving OUT of his area, and he being relieved of the responsibility. Balances out.

Also, there's been talk here about putting two dealers of the same brand near each other, for more competitive pricing. WONT EVER HAPPEN!!!! The LAST thing a manufacturer wants is for a dealer to go out of business. Location, or lack of location, for dealers is generally figured out by the manufacturer, determined by general population statistics and the number of spas that they feel can be sold. Again, the manufacturers WILL SUPPORT their dealers and make every attempt to make it so that they succeed. When a dealer goes out of business, it hurts the manufacture just as much (and they could probably give a convincing argument that they're actually hurt more).

[Dr. Spa]

wish the manufacturers would somehow get more involved or do things differently to either address the warranty expenses/issues,

ummmmmmmm, you really don't get? Ok, so lets say the manufacture doubles what they pay for warranty work. You do realize this wouldn't have ANY effect on the price you pay for the spa? No, obviously not. I'll splain it fer ya.

First off, a warranty is NOT free to you. YOU PAY FOR IT! It's figured into the price of the spa. Ok, so lets say the manufacturer pays double the current rate for warranty work. Now the dealer doesn't need to add in any upfront costs for possible warranty work, and drops his price, say $300. But, the manufacturer is now PAYING out more for warranty work, so they raise the wholsale cost of the spa $300......... the spa's ghonna cost YOU the same exact $'s

[reeffreak]

You guys are all making this a pricing game. If you're only attracting price shoppers, you're not marketing correctly. Customers are looking for a consistent experience. As a customer I don't care if the hot tub is a $3k model or a $10k model. I DO care if it's $10k at dealer A and $3k at dealer B. This hurts BOTH dealers AND the manufacturer. This devalues the product (hurts mfg's reputation) and makes dealers fight for price to make a sale. All while the customer has to constantly watch his back to make sure he's not being screwed. NOBODY wins. In my original "rant" I did not characterize this as a price play, but rather pitched msrp / map pricing concepts that would eliminate territory and price differentials. I don't think anybody got that.

Unbundling the costs of sale and service elements would increase competition among dealers both within and between product lines. Net result is that the customer wins, dealers are made whole on both sales and service elements, and nobody gets stuck in a finger pointing match looking for help because they bought a spa somewhere else. These ideas create a model that has an obsessive focus on the customer experience at every step in the mfg / sales process. And it works.. Look at Apple, Saturn, Carmax, and many other high-profile examples.

Elements of the direct model are also closing in on the full-service channel model. Endless Pools has succeeded with a mfg direct concept in a sister industry. They have built a high margin business, selling a $3k 7x14 vinyl pool with a hydraulic pump from Grainger and a little stainless work for $20k+. And they have a referral network of fanatical customers that get a back-end just for opening their pool to new prospects. They have great customer support and they sell 1000's of them. Costco is taking the direct approach too, and although they've sold crap in the past, one day they will have a hit, cutting out the dealer network altogether. Everybody slams Costco because they think of them simply as a price play. What you overlook is that many, many customers would gladly give up local service for a simple, no-frills, no hassle approach. Price is a bonus here.

Now I think local service is a very important part of the value proposition to many customers, and I don't dispute that many of the folks on this board take the higher road in their business. But customers transfer perceptions of a dealer to an industry.. That's why I said you're all in this together. It starts at the mfg with pricing and support models that end the battles and territories. Chevy doesn't have a single dealer in town, and neither should a spa vendor. The mfg's goal should be to get the product in front of as many buyers as possible. PERIOD. And structure it so customers have choice in both their sales and support options. Put your consumer hat on. What major discretionary purchase have you made $5k or more that keeps you at the mercy of a single vendor for support, in an industry with an extremely high turnover? It certainly gives me pause. And when that sale puts bread on the table, you NEED to eliminate as many of these unknowns so the customer has a worry-free experience. And yes that involves competition.

No, I'm not a spa dealer. No, I'm not going to open one to show you. And No, I'm not an academic. I am successful at what I do, and it starts by putting my customer absolutely, positively at the very, very top of the list. In the spa industry one day someone is going to have the light bulb come on, will acquire the capital and vision to pull this off, and they will NOT be selling their life's work for 6 months salary....

[Dan.The.Spa.Man]

That's why I said you're all in this together. It starts at the mfg with pricing and support models that end the battles and territories. Chevy doesn't have a single dealer in town, and neither should a spa vendor. The mfg's goal should be to get the product in front of as many buyers as possible. PERIOD. And structure it so customers have choice in both their sales and support options. Put your consumer hat on. What major discretionary purchase have you made $5k or more that keeps you at the mercy of a single

How many people have cars vs how many people have hot tubs? No way most of the cities out there can support two businesses that sell the same hot tub brand. If they could, they would.

I think people lose sight of the fact that a hot tub is one of the utmost luxury items. When it comes down to it completely unnessesary. Many people come across as if they are entitled to getting one but at the same time don't want to pay what they are worth and cost for a quality one from a quality place.

Maybe we can get Obama to pass a cash for clunkers hot tub initiative. $4500 for your old blown out mosquito-larvae infested burnt-orange colored 1984 hot tub.

On another note, I went to a Burger King Drive-Thru in another town on my way home tonight and they messed up the whole order. I was thinking I'll just go to the one in my town and yell at them for the other Burger King messing up my order and demand that they give me more food for free. It's the same company, right?

[reeffreak]

If a market won't support multiple dealers of the same product, there is still incentive for the mfg to adopt price maintenance strategies so that a potential customer doesn't find a materially different price structure for the same product in an adjacent territory. As this thread shows, it still creates competition, devalues the product, and turns the customer away from the brand altogether. Nobody wins. There are simple, effective contractual measures that would fix this for all, and minimize price in the value equation.

And Burger King would have taken care of you. So would Costco. That's the problem. And as more direct models come to market (and they will come), the value proposition of the full service model with all of it's baggage will continue to be under fire. If this industry doesn't shed that baggage, the BK drive thru will be an increasingly common sight. Last post, I'm done.

[Firemedic]

And Burger King would have taken care of you. So would Costco. That's the problem. And as more direct models come to market (and they will come), the value proposition of the full service model with all of it's baggage will continue to be under fire. If this industry doesn't shed that baggage, the BK drive thru will be an increasingly common sight. Last post, I'm done.

You are bang on. Well said.

[Wannago]

wish the manufacturers would somehow get more involved or do things differently to either address the warranty expenses/issues,

ummmmmmmm, you really don't get? Ok, so lets say the manufacture doubles what they pay for warranty work. You do realize this wouldn't have ANY effect on the price you pay for the spa? No, obviously not. I'll splain it fer ya.

First off, a warranty is NOT free to you. YOU PAY FOR IT! It's figured into the price of the spa. Ok, so lets say the manufacturer pays double the current rate for warranty work. Now the dealer doesn't need to add in any upfront costs for possible warranty work, and drops his price, say $300. But, the manufacturer is now PAYING out more for warranty work, so they raise the wholsale cost of the spa $300......... the spa's ghonna cost YOU the same exact $'s

No, I think I do understand.

I do realize that the price I pay also pays for my warranty, and the vicious circle you described.

Given the price differences I have found at my rural dealer, I came on here and asked for comments, primarily asking about the warranty thing. I received plenty of helpful feedback:

I think you better call you "city" dealer to verify all of this, as I have a feeling you may be hung out to dry if there's any warranty issues. Heck ,you may even be hung if you EVER have ANY problems and need a factory trained tech to fix.

The only subject matter of your post that is actually addressable would be about dealer B servicing a tub that was sold by dealer A. If the tub is under warranty, dealer B would break even or lose money by doing the repair on the tub sold by dealer A so why would they do it? How's that call going to go..."oh, you bought the tub from a store that's 60 miles away an you live 5 minutes up the road from me and you want me to fix it? Oh yeah, I'll be right over to fix that right up for you free of charge!!!

Your local dealer is not obligated to service your spa. In fact, if I was a local dealer and I knew you bought a spa from a dealer that was 2 hours away, I would tell you to get lost and have them service it. The truth is, there is no money to be made in warranty repairs. If a dealer has to work on your spa under warranty, chances are they are losing money. They can justify this loss of income by the profit they made upfront on the sale.

As far as the warranty work, yes the spa manufacturer compensates you for the part, so this is a slight loss because you have paid for the shipping to have the part in inventory.

Yes they also pay a fee close to the $50 that you suggested for the technicians time. When you factor in that the dealer needs to pay the tech for a few hours work, insurance on the vehicle, liability insurance, gas, etc. you are breaking even at the very best.

Then you factor in all of the bogus calls where the customer didn't realize that the breaker was tripped, high-limit button on the heater was tripped, the duck thermometer said the tub was 60 degrees so that's what I thought the temp was (only to find out the temp was 102), filter was dirty so it wasn't allowing the heater to come on, daughter's Barbie doll was stuck in the filter tube, power is inside the house and unaccessable to service because nobody is home, "I'm not sure anything is wrong, but I thougt it would be a good idea for you to come out and just check it out for me" (that's one of my favorites). All of these and a million more and how do you get compensted by the manufacturer when nothing was wrong with the tub? Well, you don't.

A lot of manufacturers only pay a FLAT FEE per service call, regardless of the problem, INCLUDING travel time. $50 is not even break even. Dan, you forgot a bit :-) employee taxes, vacation and sick pay, rent on the space for the service department, utilities for that space, cost of the vehicle, maintenance of the vehicle, tires, oil, tune ups, someone had to call the place for service? There's phone costs. What about the person answering the phone? Someone has to do the billing and bookkeeping on the call (more wages, taxes, rent for their desk space), probably on a computer. It goes on and on and on.

Anyone else sensing a theme here?

Owing to the above, it was made blatantly clear to me that the primary reason why I should not expect my local dealer to support me with my tub that I bought somewhere else, is that he is losing money with each and every service call he makes to me. How am I doing so far?

Also, you quoted me out of context. I suggested that if the manufacturer could somehow address the money-losing nature of warranty support, OR address the price gouging, my current issue would pretty much be resolved. However, I also realize that addressing this from the warranty reimbursement perspective is not feasible for a multitude of reasons, including your above example.

What is more doable is retail price control. I don't think you would disagree that the price difference here is significant. I KNOW each of you would feel the same way I do if you were looking at purchasing something like this and had the opportunity to save this amount of money. It simply shouldn't happen. I get the impression that most dealers in here probably feel that this rural dealer should be shot and pissed on, and their membership to the secret brotherhood of hot tub dealers be revoked - how dare they break "the code" and sell at these prices! If the manufacturers set more rigid pricing guidelines, this whole thing wouldn't even be an issue. I think that was essentially the point reefreak was making in his first post, as he appears to be far better versed in this type of stuff than I.

If I could buy here locally for anywhere near what I can buy it for at the other dealer, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

I'm just a guy who doesn't mind spending a decent buck for a decent product. At the same time, I don't like being ripped off. Knowing what I know now, if I bought locally at the original quoted price, I would be getting ripped off. Plain and simple.

Tanks fer 'splainin' it to me doh!

[Dan.The.Spa.Man]

It's not price gouging if you don't need the item and/or you can get it cheaper somewhere else.

Wannago...can you find out how long both of these dealers have been in business?...just curious.

Also, you really think Burger King B would give you a complete order for free because Burger King A two hours away screwed up your order?

[Eric W.]

I own a different business in home improvements, specifically windows and doors. I'm not under any contract to service my brands sold by other dealers, but the fact is we typically won't, as the other dealer made the profit from the sale. The customer took his bid over mine because he was cheaper, but now he either won't service your product to your satisfaction, or more commonly (especially now) he's out of business. I'll get parts, but when you service something the other dealers shoddy work becomes your problem. I've been in business 60 years (2nd generation family business) and the low ball guys come and go.

When I bought my spa I didn't look for a rock bottom price. I bought from the guy that really knew his product, sold a brand that I've researched, and has been around a few years. I got a fair price, and because of that I expect he'll be around for awhile to service my product. I know if I get the absolute lowest price possible, that guy probably won't be around next year, and I can't expect the other, more expensive guy to save my ass now that I didn't buy from him.

BTW, to the Hot Springs dealers here... it was a HS model that got us started on our quest for a spa, but the dealer didn't seem interested in talking to us, directed us to his website because they don't have any brochures, and the port for what I now know is the ozonator on his Grandee was covered in yellow gunk. It was a poor dealer, not the spa, but because of his laziness I ended up at a dealer for a different brand that taught me a lot about spas and differences in models, and he got the sale.

[Wannago]

Ok...maybe "gouging" isn't the correct term...but to me, it seemed apropos. Again, to your point, I CAN obviously get it cheaper somewhere else...apparently if I am willing to accept the fact that I may have to sacrifice warranty / service.

I'm not sure how long the rural dealer has been in business, but they have been carrying D1 spas for 17 years. The city dealer is a huge appliance store, been in business for over 30 years - not sure how long they have been carrying hot tubs or D1 spas. I am comfortable that my warranty will be honored no matter which dealer I buy from. Ideally, I could buy form the rural guy, and be serviced by the city guy, although that very well may not be the way it goes.

Burger King does not provide a specific warranty on their burgers, at least I have never seen their warranty. It is well known that customer satisfaction is their number one priority. But I do agree with reeffreak's response to your BK question and know that if you felt strongly enough about the screw up made by another BK restaurant in another town, your local restaurant would make you whole. I really don't think you can accurately compare the customer service focus entrenched in the fast food industry with the hot tub industry. A restaurant WILL take a loss if required for the sake of customer satisfaction / service, to defend their brand.

Either way I go, I am confident that my warranty issues will be addressed, one way or another. I still have some more legwork to do..and if this gets too messy, I will just walk away from the D1 brand completely and buy something else.

[JerimiahR]

BTW, to the Hot Springs dealers here... it was a HS model that got us started on our quest for a spa, but the dealer didn't seem interested in talking to us, directed us to his website because they don't have any brochures, and the port for what I now know is the ozonator on his Grandee was covered in yellow gunk. It was a poor dealer, not the spa, but because of his laziness I ended up at a dealer for a different brand that taught me a lot about spas and differences in models, and he got the sale.

Sorry to hear that Eric W. Reality is, the dealer who supports you is a big deal. A poor quality dealer, with the best product possible, may not have very happy/satisfied customers. Where as, a very good quality dealer, with a mediocre product, will probably have happier customers.

Ultimately, you want a high quality dealer with a high quality product to match. Generally speaking, in my personal experience, most Hot Spring dealers are pretty above average. Ultimately though, a manufacturer can't control every interaction between every dealer and every customer.

It's to bad your Hot Spring dealer didn't offer to mail you a brochure when they got some more in stock. I know that's the least of what we offer to do. In my opinion though, pictures online and in brochures really only tell about 30% of the story anyhow. Seeing and feeling is where you have to make your real decision.

[spaboy62]

I can appreciate the fact that people don't want to be ripped off, but in all honesty I purchased our spa in less time than it took to read this entire post. I did my research up front, had a clue regarding price, loved my dealer, and voila we've had our spa for a year and have been totally satisfied.

I sell for the most expensive heating and cooling company in our city. We're not for everyone, but our customers love us. I tell my clients that showing up is 95% of life, when you have a problem the little guy may not.

In our business the factory warranty is a parts warranty only. The labour portion is provided by a " factory authorized dealer". As a result, no one will fix a brand new furnace for free even if it's under warranty unless a factory extended warranty was purchased. This may be the apples and oranges thing but I believe that everyone needs to earn a profit and remain a viable entity to their customers as well as their staff. I personally believe it's easier to appologize for price once than bad quality and service forever.

That's just my two cents, Woodie

[Wannago]

Update....

So, I followed up on the rural dealer's offer, and it was indeed legitimate....5K cheaper than the price here in the city. The only snag was that my wife and I ultimately decided that this particular model was not right for us.

The rural dealer had a blem'd Sarena Bay for a very decent price as well, and I was very seriously considering that, however after more careful review, the Sarena Bay would be a bit too big for our site/yard. It's 10 feet long! Regarding the warranty / service issues, I was assured that any problems I might encounter would be taken care of, and I would have been comfortable had I dealt with the rural dealer.

We went back to the Jacuzzi shop and I ended up buying a J-480; a beautiful tub - "fully loaded": stone cabinet, exterior accent lighting, J-1000 stereo, cover, cover mate III, and all the usual goodies. I got it for 1000.00 less than the local dealer quoted me for a Lotus Bay, so I feel I did pretty good (still a sh!tload of cash though!) Hopefully it serves us well for many years...

Should be delivered next weekend, so now its time to upgrade to the 60 amp service.

Thanks to all for your comments and feedback.

[shovelhd]

Congratulations. I love my Jacuzzi and you are going to love yours.

[Firemedic]

We went back to the Jacuzzi shop and I ended up buying a J-480; a beautiful tub - "fully loaded": stone cabinet, exterior accent lighting, J-1000 stereo, cover, cover mate III, and all the usual goodies. I got it for 1000.00 less than the local dealer quoted me for a Lotus Bay, so I feel I did pretty good (still a sh!tload of cash though!) Hopefully it serves us well for many years...

Should be delivered next weekend, so now its time to upgrade to the 60 amp service.

Wannago, post some pictures when you get the 480... sounds like a great unit. I'm getting my deck reinforced and electrical upgrade done, hope to be soaking in my 470 by the end of Sept.

[D Jenks]

OK,

So I am finalizing my own spa shopping.

I have a few questions for wannago or anyone else:

1. I get the impression that 'list' pricing at traditional dealers is 2X the dealers cost for the spa. True?

2. What is a reasonable mark up for a spa at a traditional dealer?

My gut tells me the answer for #2 should be about $1,000 this is probably more than the markup on a new car.

I would appreciate peoples thoughts.