New Costco Model - Anyone Know More About It?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

keep your fingers crossed for me!

My fingers are crossed for anyone who purchases a spa and helps grow the industry.

A good spa maker may have 90% of its spas still operating after 10 years. While 90% may think their brand is great that still leaves 10% who may think their brand was just so-so (or worse) because it didn't last as long as they anticipated.

A very poor spa maker may only have 20% of their spas make it that far. However, if you tell that 20% whose spas are still running that their brand was not well made they will say "Nonsense, this is a great brand. I know because mine has worked very well for me."

Of course I made those numbers up to illustrate a point. The quality of individual spa brands are not judged by a single unit, either way.

[hot_water]

I will agree that jet feel is critically important... but I also think that pump performance is a consideration for many folks when comparison shopping. Underpowered spas are weak, particularly when lots of jets are open, and I think many shoppers don't want that. So while jet feel is critically important, I think most people will look favorably on units with higher performance pumps when shopping. My point was, if you are going to look at pump power as a point of comparison, look at a measure that means something, not an over-inflated marketing claim. If a friend comes over and sits in my spa and I tell him that I have two hp, then he sees one advertised as 6 hp.... well, he might be swayed by that... when in fact the 6 hp pumps could well be weaker. While not perfect, you get a much better comparison if you forget hp rating and look at the amperage draw. Of course none of this is as good as trying out the spa for a month to see if you like it, which you can't do.... oh, unless you get a cheap-a** Costco spa..... ;-).

Spatech, I agree with your statements... but the actual numbers are kind of important. If the numbers are 90% vs. 20%, well, then that says something. I will agree with that. What if the number are 80% v 50%? 70% v. 60%? Do you still reach the same conclusion regarding the merits of $4k spas compared to $10k spas? I don't. So looking at things as you have works, but different numbers lead to different conclusions. And we don't really have the correct numbers, do we? Just guesstimates. My problem with all these debates is that there is no real statistics or data, it's just anecdotal information and general statements about nebulous notions of goodness. If a buyer looks hard and decides on something with good parts, name brand controller, 56 frame motors instead of 48, thick CCA shell, decent cabinet, well... there's a good chance that it's a good unit and will serve that consumer's needs. If he/she decides that a Costco unit is worth a try, and it is a workmanship disaster or not good for whatever reason, he/she can take it back and be out only transportation fees. I'm NOT advising anyone to buy a Costco spa... or any brand. I'm only saying (and have always maintained) that you have to look at these products objectively and make your own choice based on your own objective assessment. If someone is more comfortable spending 50 to 100% more on a name brand, then that's what they should do. I only object to the argument that buying a name brand spa for the premium price is generally a better and safer option. You can't say that as a generalization. Is a Ferrari better than a Corolla? Well, of course it is! But is the Ferrari better if your objective is to get high gas mileage, run for 200,000 miles, have it start and get you to work every day, and leave you some money for other uses?

Peace.

[Biz]

Interestingly, there is no way that I am spending anything close to $40 a month extra in electricity. Of course I live in CA so I do have an advantage. I use my spa on average 3 times a week, and set it to sleep mode when I exit. This does save energy - despite the arguments to the contrary - and only means that you have to plan your soaks a few hours in advance... not a problem unless I get home from work a little late, which sadly sometimes happens. Even so, being a cheapskate I plan to modify the insulation a bit. I'm sure it will be a technological stretch to insulate a giant bucket of water, but since I am actually an engineer, hopefully Roger won't object too much ;-).

Hello Hotwater:

Just to let you know, we purchased our Infinity Sun Peak tub this past spring. On average our bills were running an extra $40-$50 for the past few months, which we were pleased with.

However, the month of November is awful. Our bill will most likely double from last year. During the past month, temps in our area (Vermont) have averaged in the 20's and 30's. We have our tub in the economy mode, but the temp in the tub is lowering to around 76 each day. In order to get the temp back up to around 98 degrees, we are having to run the heater an additional 3 hours daily more than we did in the spring/summer/fall. Our electric bills ran about $140 last winter, so we now anticipate them increasing to around $250.00.

We just added some rigid foam insulation to the floor of the tub and Hot Tub services will be wrapping the entire tub with some additional insulation (thermo foil I believe) soon. We are hopeful that this will keep the water warmer longer and lower our bills.

The tub is fine for spring/summer/fall, but because of our climate it appears that it is not so great in the winter. We are not even into winter yet when our temps get even lower, so we are hoping that these additional measures that we are taking will help.

It appears that you are happy with your tub which is great, however, if you were in a colder climate, you wiould not be so happy.

My question though still is, if we had purchased a $10,000 Hot spring tub, how much lower would our electric bills be. Afterall, our tub cost us only $3,000.00.

[KIALDA]

[quote name='Biz' date='Dec 4 2008, 01:10 PM

My question though still is, if we had purchased a $10,000 Hot spring tub, how much lower would our electric bills be. Afterall, our tub cost us only $3,000.00.

I guess my question is always this. Why does everyone compare a 3k spa to a 10K spa. Many of the Major brands sold thru local dealers have models in the 3-6K range today. Those spas come delivered with a warranty, service, installation etc. I feel all of these spas are of a higher quality and offer so much more than the lower end brands. Why does everyone feel the need to compare the lowest price to the highest price spa. There are so many models inbetween that have a huge quality difference between them.

I honestly feel a customer that buys a spa from a mass merchant for 3-5.5 K could have found a better quality spa in the same price range from a local dealer. Does it just make them feel better about there decision that they need to compare there purchase to the highest end spa available?

If You buy a Yugo and You are happy with that, than good for you. But to say you bought a 10,000 car because your only other choice was a Rolls for 400K is crazy. There are many good choices for around the same cost or slightly more.

I also see the same thing when people buy a 6 or 8 year old spa. They compare it to a new spa of a higher quality. That spa most likely sold for half what they are actually comparing it to and it was new at the time..

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Spatech, I agree with your statements... but the actual numbers are kind of important. If the numbers are 90% vs. 20%, well, then that says something. I will agree with that. What if the number are 80% v 50%? 70% v. 60%? Do you still reach the same conclusion regarding the merits of $4k spas compared to $10k spas? I don't.

Certainly things like how long a spa will last, what problems occurred during that span and what was their cost to keep in operation (time and $) are all huge factors. The reason I made up numbers is none exist. In reality I'll bet the chances of a brand reaching 10 years is something like 90% (top of the line spa maker) versus 30% (more than a few spa makers) but that doesn't account for what it takes to keep it alive and that’s just based on my experience. Roger has his, you have yours and others have theirs. You obviously understand the concept.

Some people have experience and thier views are formed by a large sample of spas. Others make up their own mind based on what they own. Some are swayed by what they want to believe in when shopping because sometimes $ signs blind them (sometimes in both directions, i.e. I’d buy a Costco spa before I’d buy an expensive Master or Thermospa). I think Costco type spas are priced reasonably but are best for DIYers and warm climates (IMO of course).

[John Karna]

However, the month of November is awful. Our bill will most likely double from last year. During the past month, temps in our area (Vermont) have averaged in the 20's and 30's. We have our tub in the economy mode, but the temp in the tub is lowering to around 76 each day. In order to get the temp back up to around 98 degrees, we are having to run the heater an additional 3 hours daily more than we did in the spring/summer/fall. Our electric bills ran about $140 last winter, so we now anticipate them increasing to around $250.00.

We just added some rigid foam insulation to the floor of the tub and Hot Tub services will be wrapping the entire tub with some additional insulation (thermo foil I believe) soon. We are hopeful that this will keep the water warmer longer and lower our bills.

The tub is fine for spring/summer/fall, but because of our climate it appears that it is not so great in the winter. We are not even into winter yet when our temps get even lower, so we are hoping that these additional measures that we are taking will help.

I would recomend taking the tub out of Economy mode. Despite it's name, "Economy Mode" isn't necessarly the most efficent mode. It's actually ment for very warm weather. In the colder months, you want to run your tub in "normal" mode...if you can set filter cycle times, this is the time of year to increase them. Keep the water temp up at what you soak at.

[sandi]

Many of the Major brands sold thru local dealers have models in the 3-6K range today.

Kialda,

PLEASE tell me the name of one Major brand that sells a 350 gallon capacity, 78" X 84" X 36" spa that seats 6 people for $3000. If you can, I'll be on the phone tomorrow calling Costco to arrange for them to pick up my Infinity! I'm serious - we would have loved to buy a major brand spa from one of the local spa places, but everything we looked at that was comparable in size was at least $10000 which we didn't have to spend!

Sandi

[hot_water]

Hi again,

I fully agree with Biz that if my local climate was colder I might not be so happy..... but then again if that was the case I might have elected to make another choice. Or I might have already gotten off my lazy butt and modified my tub to improve its insulation. I can't comment on the efficiency of a Sun Peak, since that isn't what I have. I also think you are quite correct in asking "just how much better would a name brand spa do?". Getting true comparative power consumption figures on these things is difficult. Even if you put a meter on the main lines, you would somehow have to account for differences in climate. As you correctly point out, your situation is much more demanding than mine is, so the insulation performance is (rightly) much more important to you. My point has always been (and will always be) that it doesn't make much sense to make sweeping general comments about nebulous notions of goodness and quality. I have a whole different set of criteria based on my application, including the climate where I live. Goodness and quality only have meaning in the context of s specific set of requirements. Now, if we could say something here like, "You have to be careful about those Sun Peaks because the shells have a chronic blistering problem" or "The pumps in those things are really bad and have a poor service history" or "that model has a strong history of leaking", well, then that would be some useful info. I don't mean to be disrespectful, and I do truly appreciate all the help that the leaders here provide.... but the quality arguments don't make a lot of sense to me.

Kialda, I guess that the answer to your question, at least from my pov, is that I don't see a lot of difference at least in ways that matter to me. I saw some really crummy spas at Home Depot, but I didn't buy one of those. I spent $5k on mine and feel that it was a good buy, more cost effective than the much more expensive ones from the traditional spa dealers. You don't have to agree, and that is perfectly fine. We all have different criteria that define our notion of what constitutes goodness or quality. I looked at the guts, and feel that while there are differences between a Sundance and what I bought, they don't strike me as all that important. So far so good with that theory. If the thing does blow up tomorrow, it will go back. Maybe I'll have a different opinion when I get the next one. I am not stubborn enough not to admit that such opinions can change.

There's enough price difference between spas that even if there is a shorter life expectancy of a Sun Peak over a Sundance, it might make sense to simply plan that you might have to buy TWO to get to ten years. You would get the latest model after 5 or so years, a new warranty, and you hang onto some of your bucks a little longer. Not to mention that it's always fun to get new stuff. Plus who knows, you might be one of the lucky ones that gets to ten years, in which case I think you should buy the beer!

Peace.

-hot_water

[Roger]

Hi again,

I fully agree with Biz that if my local climate was colder I might not be so happy..... but then again if that was the case I might have elected to make another choice. Or I might have already gotten off my lazy butt and modified my tub to improve its insulation. I can't comment on the efficiency of a Sun Peak, since that isn't what I have. I also think you are quite correct in asking "just how much better would a name brand spa do?". Getting true comparative power consumption figures on these things is difficult. Even if you put a meter on the main lines, you would somehow have to account for differences in climate. As you correctly point out, your situation is much more demanding than mine is, so the insulation performance is (rightly) much more important to you. My point has always been (and will always be) that it doesn't make much sense to make sweeping general comments about nebulous notions of goodness and quality. I have a whole different set of criteria based on my application, including the climate where I live. Goodness and quality only have meaning in the context of s specific set of requirements. Now, if we could say something here like, "You have to be careful about those Sun Peaks because the shells have a chronic blistering problem" or "The pumps in those things are really bad and have a poor service history" or "that model has a strong history of leaking", well, then that would be some useful info. I don't mean to be disrespectful, and I do truly appreciate all the help that the leaders here provide.... but the quality arguments don't make a lot of sense to me.

Kialda, I guess that the answer to your question, at least from my pov, is that I don't see a lot of difference at least in ways that matter to me. I saw some really crummy spas at Home Depot, but I didn't buy one of those. I spent $5k on mine and feel that it was a good buy, more cost effective than the much more expensive ones from the traditional spa dealers. You don't have to agree, and that is perfectly fine. We all have different criteria that define our notion of what constitutes goodness or quality. I looked at the guts, and feel that while there are differences between a Sundance and what I bought, they don't strike me as all that important. So far so good with that theory. If the thing does blow up tomorrow, it will go back. Maybe I'll have a different opinion when I get the next one. I am not stubborn enough not to admit that such opinions can change.

There's enough price difference between spas that even if there is a shorter life expectancy of a Sun Peak over a Sundance, it might make sense to simply plan that you might have to buy TWO to get to ten years. You would get the latest model after 5 or so years, a new warranty, and you hang onto some of your bucks a little longer. Not to mention that it's always fun to get new stuff. Plus who knows, you might be one of the lucky ones that gets to ten years, in which case I think you should buy the beer!

Peace.

-hot_water

Does the experience of someone who has seen hundreds of tubs just like yours and hundreds of tubs that were alot more expensive mean anything? Or is your 2 years experience with one tub more valuable?

[hot_water]

Hi Roger,

Seems like we've had this debate before.

Experience is extremely valuable. Its value is that it should enable one to provide some specific information rather than nebulous generalizations about goodness and quality. If one chooses to say, "I have lots of experience, therefore you should listen to my opinions without question"..... well, then, yes... that isn't really a very useful application of valuable experience IMHO.

I make no bones about it. I have exactly one spa and I've had it for two years. I claim only that it's been good so far and only in light of what I expect it to do. I am in no way trying to equate my knowledge to yours or anyone else's.... just sharing my experiences. You, on the other hand, have no idea what I know. It so happens that I make my living as a mechanical engineer. I have thirty years experience in the design and analysis of mechanical devices. I don't design spas, but I design other gizmos involving pumps plumbing, thermal systems, structures, and plastics... and other stuff, too. Your experience is very impressive, I'm sure... but I deal with very impressive people all day every day,and in my business we ask questions and expect to see the details to back up assertions. There is no "trust me", and there is no "I've done more of this than you have so don't question me". So please forgive me if I am not willing to accept all of your comments based on your acknowledged copious experience. Nor should you accept my comments if they sound wrong to you.

Experience should give you the tools to argue your point. It doesn't guarantee that your points are always right, nor does it exempt your arguments from scrutiny.

hot_water

[KIALDA]

Hi again,

Kialda, I guess that the answer to your question, at least from my pov, is that I don't see a lot of difference at least in ways that matter to me. I saw some really crummy spas at Home Depot, but I didn't buy one of those. I spent $5k on mine and feel that it was a good buy, more cost effective than the much more expensive ones from the traditional spa dealers. You don't have to agree, and that is perfectly fine. We all have different criteria that define our notion of what constitutes goodness or quality. I looked at the guts, and feel that while there are differences between a Sundance and what I bought, they don't strike me as all that important. So far so good with that theory. If the thing does blow up tomorrow, it will go back. Maybe I'll have a different opinion when I get the next one. I am not stubborn enough not to admit that such opinions can change.

There's enough price difference between spas that even if there is a shorter life expectancy of a Sun Peak over a Sundance, it might make sense to simply plan that you might have to buy TWO to get to ten years. You would get the latest model after 5 or so years, a new warranty, and you hang onto some of your bucks a little longer. Not to mention that it's always fun to get new stuff. Plus who knows, you might be one of the lucky ones that gets to ten years, in which case I think you should buy the beer!

Peace.

-hot_water

Ah, but you are level headed and not trying to convince yourself that you bought something better than you did. There is nothing wrong with lower priced lower quality spas, and if that is all someone can afford so be it. I have nothing against that. I do however think if someone shops around a little they do not have to take that course, but thats besides the point.

You are intelligent enough to not take the same route as I was disscussing. My comments were about these folks that buy a 5K spa and compare it to a 10 K spa. Its not, its a 5K spa infact I think they are overpriced for what they offer. They try to tell themselves there only other option is a 10K spa and they saved thousands...

You used Sundance as an example. I have a friend that had a Sundance 92"x 92" 36" spa delivered this week with 2 pumps, an upgraded filtration system with 24hr ozone, chemicals cover and other accessories. She has a warranty, a dealer to back her up, the spa was delivered filled and instructions given. That tub was under 5600 complete... Yes her family is happy and I think she got a better deal than at costco.

A neighbor of mine got a Watkins spa about a month ago for around the same price and all the same accys, They are also pleased and I am happy for them.

Both these people didnt try to compare there spa to the high end models that the same companies make. They were happy to say they bought a spa with less features but felt quality was important.

Even though these spas are not decked out like the 10K spas in there line, I think they are more decked out than the spa that started this thread. Thats why I say, these are the spas people should compare these lower end spas to. This Costco spa would not hold a candle to the quality and service provided buy the dealers that sold the two spas I was just talking about.

I appreciate the comments though, my first post was not directed at you, I just used a line from your post to make a point. You seem to realise what you have and are not trying to convince yourself otherwise.

Oh and I would expect a spa to last a minumum of 15 years with proper care..

[KIALDA]

Many of the Major brands sold thru local dealers have models in the 3-6K range today.

Kialda,

PLEASE tell me the name of one Major brand that sells a 350 gallon capacity, 78" X 84" X 36" spa that seats 6 people for $3000. If you can, I'll be on the phone tomorrow calling Costco to arrange for them to pick up my Infinity! I'm serious - we would have loved to buy a major brand spa from one of the local spa places, but everything we looked at that was comparable in size was at least $10000 which we didn't have to spend!

Sandi

Sandi, as I said there are many quality brand spas from 3-6K that are available right now from dealers. You may also be able to work out a better discount on year end close-out spas.

Now Honestly, I have never seen a spa this is 78x84 or a spa with a gallon capacity of 350 true useable gallons that could accept 6 adults and not have water coming out over the sides. There may be 6 seats in the spa, but it will not honestly sit 6 adults correctly. I would consider that a 3-4 person spa max.

Again, I think 3K to 10 K is a big jump. There are many many spas inbetween..

[hot_water]

>> "Ah, but you are level headed and not trying to convince yourself that you bought something better than you did."

I am realistic, nothing more or less. I bought exactly what I bought. My entire point is (often!) that nebulous references to better or worse mean nothing. I don't want to make judgements for other people. But I am also not afraid to say that I don't drink the Kool-Aid that says if you buy a tub from a dealer and it has a fat price tag then it must be better. It might be. It might not be. Neither the dealer nor the price tag is conclusive proof of this either way.

We've all hear the old saying, "You get what you pay for", right? Well, I am of the considered opinion that this is TOTAL NONSENSE. It is absolutely not true that there is any sort of natural force or law, or even any evidence, that ensures you will get what you pay for. People overpay for things every day. Spas are no different. What is true far more often is the converse statement... "You won't get what you don't pay for". In my humble and inexperienced view, a tub - even a hallowed Sundance or Hotsprings, simply doesn't have the content to justify a $10k price tag. That's a pile of loot! There just isn't that much to these things. You should be able to, by careful shopping and investing a little time in research, get a spa with pretty good guts for much less than dealer prices. You probably can't get a decent quality machine (new) for $2K because the cost of parts, materials and labor to get the thing together probably precludes this price. You might be able to get a decent machine from Costco for $3-5k considering that Costco has large buying power, low overhead and no commission to the sales folks. It all depends on the actual hardware you get, and each buyer should research that before making a choice. For $10k, though..... you might be getting a pretty good spa, but you're also getting a glitzy showroom and sales people on commission and advertising in the newspaper every day. None of which has a bloody thing to do with pumps and motors and shells and heaters. It all depends on what you want to spend your money on.

>> "There is nothing wrong with lower priced lower quality spas, and if that is all someone can afford so be it."

Well, your opinion is as valid as anyone elses. But words "lower priced" and "lower quality" do not necessarily come in a set. I am 100% convinced that my spa, worthless pile of garbage that it may be in some people's view, is much more cost effective than the Sundance that was the runner up. I can easily afford either. But I am not an idiot in the world of things mechanical and there just isn't enough difference between Sundance hardware and my hardware to justify the huge price differential. I will agree that there was a HUGE difference betwen the Sundance and some of the really junky stuff I saw. That means that the junk was really bad.... it doesn't make the Sundance worth $10k.

No one has to agree with my judgement or choices. But, it seems like I see lots of threads on this forum about people that are having problems with their Sundance or other name spas. I'm not having problems so far, and I have several thousand bucks left in my pocket. Next summer, Spain! And I will still be able to soak when I get back. Life is good, especially if you don't waste your moolah.

Finally, I shopped all the majors before I bought. I negotiated with the Sundance dealer and, like Sandi, they just wouldn't cough up any sort of deal that seemed reasonable to me. If they had, I would have a Sundance, since I liked the spa and I think having a dealer for support does have some merit. With some products, you get more for your money; with others, you get a little less. Sometimes you can supply a little sweat equity and really do well for yourself. That's the deal... it's not quite as simple as "lower price, lower quality".

[Roger]

Hi Roger,

Seems like we've had this debate before.

Experience is extremely valuable. Its value is that it should enable one to provide some specific information rather than nebulous generalizations about goodness and quality. If one chooses to say, "I have lots of experience, therefore you should listen to my opinions without question"..... well, then, yes... that isn't really a very useful application of valuable experience IMHO.

I make no bones about it. I have exactly one spa and I've had it for two years. I claim only that it's been good so far and only in light of what I expect it to do. I am in no way trying to equate my knowledge to yours or anyone else's.... just sharing my experiences. You, on the other hand, have no idea what I know. It so happens that I make my living as a mechanical engineer. I have thirty years experience in the design and analysis of mechanical devices. I don't design spas, but I design other gizmos involving pumps plumbing, thermal systems, structures, and plastics... and other stuff, too. Your experience is very impressive, I'm sure... but I deal with very impressive people all day every day,and in my business we ask questions and expect to see the details to back up assertions. There is no "trust me", and there is no "I've done more of this than you have so don't question me". So please forgive me if I am not willing to accept all of your comments based on your acknowledged copious experience. Nor should you accept my comments if they sound wrong to you.

Experience should give you the tools to argue your point. It doesn't guarantee that your points are always right, nor does it exempt your arguments from scrutiny.

hot_water

I think we talked about this before. now it is coming back to me and because your a mechnical engineer I now understand alot more. As a plumber/pipe fitter with 30 years experience who has dealt with numerous mechanical engineers. I can now see more clearly why you need the explination as to why. At the company I work for we design build all the time because of the variables in the industrial market. And design build means build/design because of the fast paced environment. Our communication with engineering is everyday, every hour as we go, and the drawings follow the build most times. And I know you know the reason why.

I also know you can see the quality difference and you can see the plumbing difference inside of both types of tubs (at least I hope you can). But you are correct in your assumption that it is good enough for you, maybe not your neighbor though. That morphidited cobbled together conglomeration of plumbing inside those tubs should make you want to redesign it. Can't believe you haven't, and then hired a plumber to put it together for you, but he would probably have to do it different than the plan sorry, the plan won't work.

[sandi]

Many of the Major brands sold thru local dealers have models in the 3-6K range today.

Kialda,

PLEASE tell me the name of one Major brand that sells a 350 gallon capacity, 78" X 84" X 36" spa that seats 6 people for $3000. If you can, I'll be on the phone tomorrow calling Costco to arrange for them to pick up my Infinity! I'm serious - we would have loved to buy a major brand spa from one of the local spa places, but everything we looked at that was comparable in size was at least $10000 which we didn't have to spend!

Sandi

Sandi, as I said there are many quality brand spas from 3-6K that are available right now from dealers. You may also be able to work out a better discount on year end close-out spas.

Now Honestly, I have never seen a spa this is 78x84 or a spa with a gallon capacity of 350 true useable gallons that could accept 6 adults and not have water coming out over the sides. There may be 6 seats in the spa, but it will not honestly sit 6 adults correctly. I would consider that a 3-4 person spa max.

Again, I think 3K to 10 K is a big jump. There are many many spas inbetween..

Kialda,

I have been on this forum for almost a year and a half and have made 138 posts (including this one). I have NEVER posted a lie - not once, not ever. In my post above, I copied the gallon capacity and the dimensions of my spa directly from the spec. sheet that came with it. Perhaps those statistics are inaccurate but I didn't lie when I typed them. Since you don't seem to believe me about 6 adults fitting in the spa without water coming out, I'll tell you what. The next time you are in Bethany Beach, DE on a Friday or Saturday evening, why don't you stop by my house and tell my 25 year old son and 5 of his friends, who will be sitting in the spa drinking beer, that 2 of them need to get out because they can't all fit! I'm sure they'll have an answer for you! While you're there, please note whether or not water is sloshing out of the spa. The ONLY time we have EVER had to refill our spa after people got out of it was when there were 3 adults and 2 small children, and the children were splashing around like they were in a swimming pool! And oh, by the way, when you stop by, how about loading that major brand spa of a comparable size that you sell at your store for $3000 onto a truck and bringing it with you?? Surely you must have one that you'd like to sell - I'll buy it from you on the spot!!! In one of your recent posts, you quoted a figure of $5600 that someone recently spent for a major brand spa. You didn't mention the size of the spa plus $5600 isn't $3000. So who's not being honest here???

Sandi

[KIALDA]

Many of the Major brands sold thru local dealers have models in the 3-6K range today.

Kialda,

PLEASE tell me the name of one Major brand that sells a 350 gallon capacity, 78" X 84" X 36" spa that seats 6 people for $3000. If you can, I'll be on the phone tomorrow calling Costco to arrange for them to pick up my Infinity! I'm serious - we would have loved to buy a major brand spa from one of the local spa places, but everything we looked at that was comparable in size was at least $10000 which we didn't have to spend!

Sandi

Sandi, as I said there are many quality brand spas from 3-6K that are available right now from dealers. You may also be able to work out a better discount on year end close-out spas.

Now Honestly, I have never seen a spa this is 78x84 or a spa with a gallon capacity of 350 true useable gallons that could accept 6 adults and not have water coming out over the sides. There may be 6 seats in the spa, but it will not honestly sit 6 adults correctly. I would consider that a 3-4 person spa max.

Again, I think 3K to 10 K is a big jump. There are many many spas inbetween..

Kialda,

I have been on this forum for almost a year and a half and have made 138 posts (including this one). I have NEVER posted a lie - not once, not ever. In my post above, I copied the gallon capacity and the dimensions of my spa directly from the spec. sheet that came with it. Perhaps those statistics are inaccurate but I didn't lie when I typed them. Since you don't seem to believe me about 6 adults fitting in the spa without water coming out, I'll tell you what. The next time you are in Bethany Beach, DE on a Friday or Saturday evening, why don't you stop by my house and tell my 25 year old son and 5 of his friends, who will be sitting in the spa drinking beer, that 2 of them need to get out because they can't all fit! I'm sure they'll have an answer for you! While you're there, please note whether or not water is sloshing out of the spa. The ONLY time we have EVER had to refill our spa after people got out of it was when there were 3 adults and 2 small children, and the children were splashing around like they were in a swimming pool! And oh, by the way, when you stop by, how about loading that major brand spa of a comparable size that you sell at your store for $3000 onto a truck and bringing it with you?? Surely you must have one that you'd like to sell - I'll buy it from you on the spot!!! In one of your recent posts, you quoted a figure of $5600 that someone recently spent for a major brand spa. You didn't mention the size of the spa plus $5600 isn't $3000. So who's not being honest here???

Sandi

Oh you best check your facts about who said what,,,, I will be happy to have fun and answer your post this evening when I am home...

[hot_water]

This is so entertaining! It's better than a fiction novel.

Interesting how all roads here lead to the same place - "You should get a dealer spa". Well, not all roads... but quite a few. Let me see if I can summarize the points:

* "You have to pay dealer prices to get anything of good quality"

** "You are delusional if you think you can get a more cost effective spa by going to other than a dealer"

* "Since you aren't a repair tech your experience and point of view means nothing (unless you agree with me)"

* " Since you haven't got (insert large number) years in the spa industry, you opinions & experience mean nothing"

** "You're an engineer? Well, you don't know anything, the plumbers make your crap work anyway"

* "$100 insulation mods you made to your tub, which I've never seen or evaluated, aren't engineered in, like they are on the dealer tubs"

* "Costco spas have no warranty support compared to dealers -Never mind the unlimited full satisfation return policy at Costco"

* "You get what you pay for"

* "You have to be a DIYer to support a non-dealer spa

** <silence> when it's suggested that you can most always find a tech in the yellow pages to service your non-dealer spa

* "The dealer will sell you something in the same price range that is better than what you can get elsewhere"

* "What? Your non-dealer spa has been good? Jeez you've been lucky."

* "What? Your non-dealer spa has been good? Just you wait."

* "Your non-dealer spa will be just fine - for a couple of years"

** "It's been running for a couple years with no poblems? Well the odds are it won't last much longer"

** "Oh, so two years of no problems makes you an expert like me?"

* "Quality of your non-dealer tub isn't good. I don't need to elaborate, you should be able to see it."

** "What, you can't see any meaningful quality differences that justify the price difference? You must be blind/stupid"

** "You want to know what is low quality about (insert non dealer model)? How dare you question me"

** "You want to know what is low quality about (insert non dealer model)? Well, you can't get a good spa for that price."

* "That non-dealer model you're asking about is cheap junk. Oh, I've never actually seen one of those"

* "I've never actually seen one of those, but I've seen plenty like it and they're not good"

* "All non-dealer spas are the same, don't bother with the specifics - they aren't as good as dealer models"

* "Non-dealer tubs are great as long as you recognize that you're getting a clearly inferior product"

* "Non-dealer spas are fine if you can't afford anything of decent quality"

* "Large dealer markups, commission salespersons and high overhead are not the reason the spas cost more, it's because they are better"

* "Low markups and overhead are not the reason non-dealer spas are cheaper, it's because they are inferior"

* "What do you mean your non-dealer spa seems to run as well as your friend's name brand spa? You are blind to the facts"

* "I don't actually have any objective data to back up any of my quality or longevity claims, but I have loads of experience"

I probably missed a few, but you get the idea.

Spa shoppers: I'm not in the spa industry. My sense is that I found this forum to be quite useful if you have a specific problem or question about your spa, but nearly worthless if you are trying to decide what to buy. The exception is if you find comments from actual owners of the model you are looking at.

[Roger]

This is so entertaining! It's better than a fiction novel.

Interesting how all roads here lead to the same place - "You should get a dealer spa". Well, not all roads... but quite a few. Let me see if I can summarize the points:

* "You have to pay dealer prices to get anything of good quality"

** "You are delusional if you think you can get a more cost effective spa by going to other than a dealer"

* "Since you aren't a repair tech your experience and point of view means nothing (unless you agree with me)"

* " Since you haven't got (insert large number) years in the spa industry, you opinions & experience mean nothing"

** "You're an engineer? Well, you don't know anything, the plumbers make your crap work anyway"

* "$100 insulation mods you made to your tub, which I've never seen or evaluated, aren't engineered in, like they are on the dealer tubs"

* "Costco spas have no warranty support compared to dealers -Never mind the unlimited full satisfation return policy at Costco"

* "You get what you pay for"

* "You have to be a DIYer to support a non-dealer spa

** <silence> when it's suggested that you can most always find a tech in the yellow pages to service your non-dealer spa

* "The dealer will sell you something in the same price range that is better than what you can get elsewhere"

* "What? Your non-dealer spa has been good? Jeez you've been lucky."

* "What? Your non-dealer spa has been good? Just you wait."

* "Your non-dealer spa will be just fine - for a couple of years"

** "It's been running for a couple years with no poblems? Well the odds are it won't last much longer"

** "Oh, so two years of no problems makes you an expert like me?"

* "Quality of your non-dealer tub isn't good. I don't need to elaborate, you should be able to see it."

** "What, you can't see any meaningful quality differences that justify the price difference? You must be blind/stupid"

** "You want to know what is low quality about (insert non dealer model)? How dare you question me"

** "You want to know what is low quality about (insert non dealer model)? Well, you can't get a good spa for that price."

* "That non-dealer model you're asking about is cheap junk. Oh, I've never actually seen one of those"

* "I've never actually seen one of those, but I've seen plenty like it and they're not good"

* "All dealer spas are the same, don't bother with the specifics - they aren't as good as dealer models"

* "Non-dealer tubs are great as long as you recognize that you're getting a clearly inferior product"

* "Non-dealer spas are fine if you can't afford anything of decent quality"

* "Large dealer markups, commission salespersons and high overhead are not the reason the spas cost more, it's because they are better"

* "Low markups and overhead are not the reason non-dealer spas are cheaper, it's because they are inferior"

* "What do you mean your non-dealer spa seems to run as well as your friend's name brand spa? You are blind to the facts"

* "I don't actually have any objective data to back up any of my quality or longevity claims, but I have loads of experience"

I probably missed a few, but you get the idea.

Spa shoppers: I'm not in the spa industry. My sense is that I found this forum to be quite useful if you have a specific problem or question about your spa, but nearly worthless if you are trying to decide what to buy. The exception is if you find comments from actual owners of the model you are looking at.

This is so off base it is real close to not worth the time to respond to all points. I'll just address one for now. "you get what you pay for" Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding only themselves.

Spa shoppers: please investigate more than a year or 2 of someones experience and get real data on manufacturers reputation for reliability, energy effieciency and longevity. Actual owners tend to be unexperienced and biased towords there brand to justify there purchase.

Hot Water, please supply us with your data regarding the longevity, energy effieciency, reliability and fit and finish of the type of spa you are promoting before you ask for our data. Our data is in many many years of experience with hundreds of brands and there reliability.

It's also not fair to make assumptions regarding the meaning of someones post and filling in the blanks to your liking.

"Oh, so two years of no problems makes you an expert like me?"

Tell us why they are not?

"Large dealer markups, commission salespersons and high overhead are not the reason the spas cost more, it's because they are better"

Your asking us for data and yet your not supplying any......ahhhh never mind!! Oh wait, you are supplying 2 years worth. Please stick around for 2 more and fill us in.

[Tom]

This is so entertaining! It's better than a fiction novel.

It's a merry-go-round and around and around.

In one of the earlier go-rounds, I took a camera to my local Rona (Canadian big-box store) and took photographs of the entry-level spa illustrating construction defects and design weaknesses. I was as specific as I could be. I even gave a detailed list of features that people could use for comparison. As far as I can recall, that thread wound up in the usual brou-ha-ha.

[hot_water]

I stand by my post. I am not off base.

If you truly believe that you get what you pay for is an incontrovertable fact, you must waste a lot of money.

I am not promoting any type of spa, and I don't hide behind my years of experience. I state my experience. You will never find a SINGLE post of mine advising anyone to buy any particular type or brand of spa. If I was making claims or saying that this spa was better than that one, I would be pleased to show my backup data. But I don't make such claims - precisely because I don't have any backup data. I only have experience with my spa (happens to be a non-dealer model). You don't have any data either, but you make claims!

You said: "please investigate more than a year or 2 of someones experience and get real data on manufacturers reputation for reliability, energy effieciency and longevity. Actual owners tend to be unexperienced and biased towords there brand to justify there purchase." Your comments are an example of the point from my post above:

* " Since you haven't got (insert large number) years in the spa industry, you opinions & experience mean nothing"

Thank you for providing a data point to justify my statement.

[hot_water]

This is so entertaining! It's better than a fiction novel.

It's a merry-go-round and around and around.

In one of the earlier go-rounds, I took a camera to my local Rona (Canadian big-box store) and took photographs of the entry-level spa illustrating construction defects and design weaknesses. I was as specific as I could be. I even gave a detailed list of features that people could use for comparison. As far as I can recall, that thread wound up in the usual brou-ha-ha.

Tom, I didn't see that post. But what you did sounds like it would be useful. I have no problem AT ALL with that. It's educational and fact-based. Thank you. That's the kind of thing that would be useful to shoppers. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen very often.

[Dr. Spa]

Given the choice of a consumers experience with the one product they've owned for a relatively short period of time , and the experience of a person that's been servicing the product for many years....I would give infinity more credit to the service person.

[hot_water]

Bingo. We have another match from my earlier post:

* "Since you aren't a repair tech your experience and point of view means nothing (unless you agree with me)"

Of course, you're a spa dealer, right Dr? I don't suppose there's any bias there.

[Roger]

This is so entertaining! It's better than a fiction novel.

It's a merry-go-round and around and around.

In one of the earlier go-rounds, I took a camera to my local Rona (Canadian big-box store) and took photographs of the entry-level spa illustrating construction defects and design weaknesses. I was as specific as I could be. I even gave a detailed list of features that people could use for comparison. As far as I can recall, that thread wound up in the usual brou-ha-ha.

Tom, I didn't see that post. But what you did sounds like it would be useful. I have no problem AT ALL with that. It's educational and fact-based. Thank you. That's the kind of thing that would be useful to shoppers. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen very often.

It happens all the time, over and over again. Most don't pay much attention or are blinded by the price tag. Sigh....just the way it is and the way it will stay. After 2300 posts and 7-8 years giving free advice on this board I can't even remember the hundreds of times the comparision with facts has been presented to one member or another, regard one inexpensive brand or another. But, I enjoy the thrill of it and am glad that whether my advice is taken or not it is always factual and will show itself to all over time.

Serviced a 7 YO Emerald Tues. that was 2800 new 7 years ago. Not it to bad a shape well taken care of, but on it's last leg. The pumps will have another year I replaced them after about 4. The heater and board was almost a year later. so may go another couple. But the frame, shell, tubing and all the other little things are getting very very tired. I still think Emerald is one of the better VALUE tubs.

Did a 18 YO Hot Springs 2 weeks ago. Guy said he though it was around 5 grand new. Still ran great with the same pump but 3 circ pumps have been put in and a heater. Problem is the thing is very dated. The owner is thinking about a new one and wonders if HS is a good brand or if he should try another. I gave him a list of 4 that will last that long and none are available at a box store.

[Dr. Spa]

Of course, you're a spa dealer, right Dr? I don't suppose there's any bias there.

Nope, not a spa dealer.

Roger, remember the 1994 Sundance Suntub I picked up used a few months ago. Put in a new thermostat, got a new cover, and just recently restained it. The thing runs like new!

Picture of new cover, before restain -