lighthouse206

This is the best post I have seen in a while. There are names on here that even I dont think about, and you are new and just looking. Geeez You think these people are stupid!! I cannot believe your office let you post this, Ok this made me laugh - as I have been known to be paranoid about shills. Usually I can spot them from a mile, but I never thought I'd be acused of being one - showed this to my wife as she knows I have been obsessing over research since our spa broke. I take it as a compliment! Seriously though, when I was on the phone with them they mentioned Costco, and I found some other info through searches on this website - I then was able to pull up their press release on their site - which listed out the other brands they manufacture.I typed them up in order - but I couldn't read my own writing and left off Shoreline. So Don't be so quick to pull the "shill" trigger! I'm a normal guy living in the foothills of Colorado with a broken Hotsprings Highlife! Thank you for the info regarding the existing technologies Roger - I thought as much. I had read Arctic had salt systems, but I did not know that other companies had tried variable speed motors and sequential jets. Do you know which companies use this? How do they work? I I have done a fair amount of research on Tatum / Living Waters. What I've found is that a good number of industry insiders (not just on this board) despise them for lots of reasons. I've also interacted with some actual satisfied customers. If you do searching I think you'll find very few posts on here or any other board with an actual Tatum customer agreeing that the product they received is junk (as the dealers and techs on here will tell you). If you look at the online reviews of Costco tubs made by Tatum you'll see plenty of positive reviews and some not so positive ones. Be sure to look at both Costco.ca (Canada) and Costco.com (US) as both sell Pilates, which looks like near twins to these Lazyboy models... The biggest con I found (and the sole reason I didn't purchase the Pilates/Tatum product) is that there seems to be general agreement that these tubs aren't as well insulated as other brands. I live in a northern-ish climate and energy efficiency is very important to me, even if the power here is pretty cheap. Like you, I haven't found any other tub with the sequential pump massage chair system featured on these tubs. This is a fascinating feature and very interesting technology. The only thing I've found that even sort of compares is the MotoMassage on HotSprings. Of course, I'd assume that this feature is reason to suspect a greater likelyhood of mechanical issues in the future as it probably involves moving parts...

I think you are over reacting Deuss. A lot of the heated discussions around the "budget" tubs comes when someone tries to convince the world (or maybe just themselves?) that the $3000 costco tub is just as good as $9000+ quality tub from say Watkins, Sundance or Artic etc. I get the impression that you agree they are not. I believe you understand what you have and what you don't have and are satsified with it. However some folks have gotten into heated arguments with very expericed techs, users and other respected industry proffesionals arguing that the tubs are indeed the same and the dealers are simply misleading and ripping people off. Here in this thread we have a third hand quote from the manf. rep even admiting that the budget tubs are less quality. Latley it seems the insulation debate has also been put to rest with many of the lower end tub owners posting high electric bills, and the need for additonal insualtion. Are the budget tubs a good deal? That's opinion. Mine is that they are not, but I belive that resonable people can agree that there is a significant quality difference. Nothing more. nothing less. My main point is that a budget tub from Costco is comparable to a generic budget tub through a dealer and that while $3,500 is budget at Costco, factoring in MUCH higher dealer MARKUP (which nobody seems to be questioning) a $4,500 - $5,000 tub of similar size at a dealer likely cost THAT dealer about the same as what Costco is paying for the one they sell at $3,500. The difference is markup, or profit on the sale. Costco = very low profit on individual sales (10-14% is well documented) vs 40-50% minimum at dealers, at least the ones in my area. It should also be pointed out that Costco DOES sell non-budget tubs. The Pilates brand isn't intended to be a budget brand. It features technology not seen on ANY other tub that I can find! Check out the jet system! The XP1 is being sold for $7,000. Figure 14% markup and that tells you Costco is probably buying these tubs for about $6,000, perhaps a hair less with shipping factored in. To me that equals a $9,000 out the door tub at a dealer (comparable to upper middle end to high end tubs in my area). The list could be as high as $12,000. The same rep I talked to said he felt that the XP1 would MSRP for $14,000 if sold through traditional channels. Costco also has other brands that are not being sold as budget. I don't think these are built by Tatum/Gulf Coast. Yet I'm sure the "experts" on here will tell you they are junk without even determining who builds them - just like none of these "experts" have stated they've actually examined a recently built Tatum product like this spa or the Pilates line.... They will probably find some line in the spec sheet and use that as argument that the whole product is junk.. watch and see.

Rather than attacking me, how about attacking my facts? And before you do that, you might check out this article which mentions that Costco's maximum product markup is 14% with most items at 10%: http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/r...23-costco_x.htm Costco's business model, practices, and policies aren't rocket science. They are well documented and studied both by the mainstream media and by business schools (MBA programs) all across the country.

A few points about this model (I'm the guy that posted originally asking about it and spurred another boring debate between the same people about Costco vs. non-Costco... as opposed to getting much real information about this model as I requested...) Special thanks to the nice lady that compared the specs of her tub to this tub in an attempt to compare them! But anyway, I did learn some things about this model from helpful Costco folks and a nice rep of the actual manufacturer. Here's some info I can relay to those interested in this tub (and not wanting to start another debate about the general characteristics of costco vs dealer products): ONE.... this is NOT the Infinity tub. TWO... this tub is NOT being manufactured by Infinity or a successor company to Infinity or by "the same people" who manufactured the Infinity tubs. THREE.. this tub IS intended to replace the Infinity models in the Costco lineup as a budget tub. FOUR... this tub is somewhat based upon the design of Infinity but it is its own design. FIVE... the manufacturer is Gulf Coast Spas. These are the same people who manufacture the Pilates brand, which according to Costco (who any reasonable business expert would conclude is a good company that takes good care of its employees AND customers) gets very very positive reviews from its customers. Some of these positive Pilates reviews are posted on the Costco website. SIX... Costco's Buyers have personally inspected this tub for quality assurance. According to the factory rep I spoke with (I know, a biased source but nevertheless), the Costco Buyers went over this tub aggressively and where amazed at the quality differences between it and their past "budget" line... SEVEN... Yes apparently Gulf Coast is rebranding itself into different product names and quality levels, this involves new names. That's hardly a sign they are unstable. MANY companies have lots of product lines and names, including my own (Yes, I own a medium sized business). Gulf Coast appears to be an innovator in a lot of ways (i.e. they are investing in research) as they have jet systems that I haven't found anyplace else (particularly on the Pilates models) and other unique things they are doing. They are NOT focused on simply being a budget manufacturer, and their partnership with Costco seems pretty stable and long lasting. NONE of us truly know how lucrative that deal is, and whether Costco is, in fact, forcing them to cut major corners in order to make money selling these tubs through Coscto. Anyone suggesting this is speculating as the last thing Costco wants is a lot of returns on ANY product, particularly these! All the data I could uncover on this particular tub indicated to me that it probably is a pretty darn good VALUE. Meaning for $3,500 plus tax you are getting a lot for your money. HOWEVER, the factory rep himself reminded me that this is intended to be a budget tub and that we should all keep that in mind. It does not feature the highest quality components, the thickest insulation, or the best cover (where lots of heat escapes). The warranty is VERY short. I think this could be a great option for a value shopper willing to accept those risks, and particularly for people not looking to stay in their current residence for more than a couple of years and still want a tub. For example, my last tub was a Costco-bought Imperial which was actually built by Jacuzzi. It served its purpose amazingly well (I only wanted it for two years since I knew I was moving).. One last point I'll make about Costco. When you buy from Costco you know you are getting a good deal. I live in the Seattle area where Costco is based and am familiar with its founders, Jim Sinegal, etc. No, I don't work for Costco and never have, while my company HAS done a limited amount of business with them. The bottom line is that Costco pretty much sells products at cost. Plain and simple. Costco makes money (its profit margin) off of membership fees. Aside from selling memberships, everything else about them is pretty much a break even operation. So while there is markup on Costco products, the markup funds the basic operation and does not derive any profit. Hot Tub dealers on the other hand (and I'm actually going to be buying my next tub from a dealer so I'm not against dealers or small business people in general)... do add pretty major markup onto these tubs, the Seattle-area ones I'm dealing with are adding 40-50% on whenever they can. They have to, they are trying to run a business themselves and don't have Costco membership fees or volume to keep themselves afloat. My point? My best guess is that Costco is paying about $3K for these tubs, factor in shipping and add in some profit margin and that's where you get to $3,500. At a dealer, I strongly suspect these are $4,500 - $5,000 tubs "out the door". They might actually "list" for $6K. I have two sources for this information, including one factory rep and another store owner who decided to tell me how it "really" works... Another example would be the Costco Pilates XP1 model that would very likely sell at a dealer for around $11K and be "list" at $13-14K - very much the same as a higher end Hotsprings or Jacuzzi in price. So the reality is that the Costco tubs are very near wholesale prices (what a dealer would pay before he sold it to you). Obviously the dealers don't like this very much and would rather offer you a quality argument (these tubs are junk) over the argument I just made. That's not to say there aren't differences - major brands can be comparable but different. Sony vs. Panasonic or even Mazda vs. Hyundai. The warranty on Costco tubs IS shorter and this does reduce their wholesale cost, as well. Again, I'm not trying to flair another argument with the same people (many of whom prefer the existing spa sales hierarchy and have friends in the business if they arent in it themselves, etc and have good reasons to try to limit the Costco sales model in the spa business as much as possible)... The reality is that is a classic buy local vs. buy online type argument. I just want to pass on what several weeks of pretty heavy duty research on this has taught me, that when comparing Costco tubs to dealer models you need to ask yourself, what would this Costco tub cost at a dealer and factor in the much higher dealer markup in order to make a true apples to apples comparison. Depending upon what you want and can afford, the dealers have a lot more variety and can offer longer warranties. But keep in mind hot tub dealers can go out of business too, and if yours does, you are in the same boat as if you bought from Costco (calling an 800 number, praying your manufacturer is still in business, etc). Ultimately I decided I wanted a super energy efficient AND high tech model, with an ipod compatible stereo and lounger, and Costco just doesn't offer that. Also, especially when you are going higher end in particular it makes a lot of sense to at least sit in the tub and make sure it fits you. This is something else you can't do with Costco, and these are reasons to pay the extra money and go dealer. I luckily found a dealer willing to do some serious bargaining and wound up paying (I'd guess) about $9.5K for a model that typically goes out the door at $12K and "lists" at $14K - about equal to what the Costco Pilates XP1 would have cost me installed. This took a lot of negotiating, however!

Wow very good info. Did you have to negotiate this or did they just offer it to you? What store if you don't mind me asking? Was this a special order or did they have the tub in stock? Thanks much!

I am thinking of purchasing a J-465 prior to the end of the year. I'm also considering some much less expensive models, included the dreaded Costco tubs. The J-465 appeals to me because I suspect it has far superior insulation and higher quality components (can anyone comment on the stereo)? I've also bought my fair share of other big ticket items (such as cars) and have found it's quite possible to typically pay about $500 - $1000 over wholesale cost for such items, including most luxury cars with the primary challenge being to determine the real "invoice" price. Given the status of the economy I suspect such deals are possible for higher end tubs right now, as well. At the Jacuzzi dealer yesterday it was quite obvious they are extremely desperate to make a sale. They initially quoted me something in the ballpark of $14K for this tub with stereo, ozone, coverlifter, etc. Then offered me a "sale" price of $12K. When I said I wouldn't go higher than $10K the dealer basically accepted (said he needed to check with his boss). Note I didn't make an offer, just said what my current maximum would likely be. They do not have any in stock and would have to order my unit. So basically we went from $14K to $10K in about five minutes. They are big regional store with I suspect large volume discounts and their own electricians on staff. Anyone know what these tubs actually cost these guys? I'm thinking about half of the "list" price of $14K, so in the neighborhood of $7-$8K. If so, then I'm thinking I could get one for $9K for less? Appreciate any thoughts on this. BTW, I fully realize spa dealers are trying to make a living just like anyone else, I also think that in a market where very little luxury items are selling that a profit of $500 - $1000 is fair and appropriate. I'm a business owner myself and I'm certainly accepting lower profits in light the economy...

Costco is offering a new model at a very low price. I'm looking for information on it. Here is a link: http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11314128 It is the St. Lucia by Home and Garden Spas. An another note, I have bought a spa from Costco in the past and thoroughly understand the pros and cons of doing so. I do not want a used spa, and $3,500 is about all I can spend right now (not counting installation costs). The seating configuration and options on this spa are **exactly** what I am looking for.... even the color scheme is perfect. Does anyone know who actually manufactures this spa or know anything about its general quality? I'd be happy and satisfied if it lasted for 2-3 years (after which I will be selling my home anyway) without major problems and didn't cost more than double in energy costs as compared to a "high quality" spa... Appreciate anyone's thoughts on **this** spa in particular (as opposed to Costco spas in general...) Thank you!

Anyone have Aquatremor? We LOVE to listen to music while in the tub and I want a good system. I've heard some mixed reviews on Aquatremor and am wondering if anyone here has some first hand experience with it? Good system? My spouse likes to listen to classical music in the tub - any experience with that? Also, I am aware of an Aquatremor Deluxe system that includes additional speakers, does anyone have any real info on the deluxe system? The Arctic rep I talked to basically implied the Deluxe system wasn't worth it...