Cal Spas Avalon Vs. Arctic Yukon?

[Altazi]

Hello Roger,

Thanks for the offer. Here's another (dumb?) question: how did you manage to have two separate quoted sections in your last post? I tried copying the quote header (quote name=. . .) and the footer (/quote), but the sections didn't show up as quoted blocks in the preview.

Thanks!

Altazi

[wesj53]

I guess I am just not ready to accept that FF could be as popular as it is, sold around the globe the way it is, and be a consistant source of trouble in cases of frozen tubs. I realize that there are going to be special cases where no tub could survive, and if that happens to you, it is a major deal.

Maybe, just maybe Chas, the thought of the TP system is beginning to gain more popularity as a superior system in terms of long term care, as well as POSSIBLY offering more benefit in terms of freeze-ups and lower energy costs. It's my understanding that FF is old technology; TP (or Heatlock) is newer technology that challenges the old belief that FF is the only way to build a tub. Those dealers selling FF understandably are going to have guarded opinions of the TP method, but I think debate is healthy and change is part of any industry. That is how technology moves all us forward to build better products.

[John Karna]

I think the FF freezing issue is overblown, otherwise we'd be seeing hundreds of thousands of spas destroyed in the winter, consumers up in arms and the technoligy would be obsolete. It's not.

In the event of a power outage, wouldn't the warm water in a full foam tub flow into the pumps and keep it from freezing?

I would assume in a FF tub, the water inside the shell, surrouded by the foam would be kept warmer longer than a TP design, and since this water is in contact with the pumps, also keep that from freezing?

Granted a TP design will be surrounded by the air being warmed by the cooling water, but it will cool quicker. Wouldn't the warmer water in a full foam tub that is flowing/in contact with the pumps through the pipes actually stay warmer longer?

[Glenn]

I think the FF freezing issue is overblown, otherwise we'd be seeing hundreds of thousands of spas destroyed in the winter, consumers up in arms and the technoligy would be obsolete. It's not.

In the event of a power outage, wouldn't the warm water in a full foam tub flow into the pumps and keep it from freezing?

I would assume in a FF tub, the water inside the shell, surrouded by the foam would be kept warmer longer than a TP design, and since this water is in contact with the pumps, also keep that from freezing?

Granted a TP design will be surrounded by the air being warmed by the cooling water, but it will cool quicker. Wouldn't the warmer water in a full foam tub that is flowing/in contact with the pumps through the pipes actually stay warmer longer?

How does the water "flow" if there is no power?? the pump area would freeze first, heater etc., it was a "what if" there was a power problem, what would happen, in the Arctic the underside of the tub is in common air as the motor, plumbing, control panel, heater therefore protected for some days using the "heat" that is "locked" in the tub area.

[dlynn]

Back to the original question. I like the Arctic Spa's insulation method, I like the Cal Spa's feel and layout. The Cal Spa is available with either insulation type, you can order it in with Thermal Foam or Full Foam. I would go with the Tub that feels best to you in a wet test. I was going to buy a Cal Spa over the Arctic Spa but ended up getting one at Costco at half the price with more features than the Cal Spa. I know the Costco spa (by Hydro-Spa) as not as good as either of these two, but for the money I think I got a good deal. My prefrence of these two is the Cal Spa, I did not like the feel of the Arctic. I was going to get a Cal Spa with full foam. I liked the Arctic Spa's Thermal Foam just as well however. I think either of these two would be as good a spa as you can get. (except for the internet kings spas Jim_the_Jim HA HA)

[Glenn]

Back to the original question. I like the Arctic Spa's insulation method, I like the Cal Spa's feel and layout. The Cal Spa is available with either insulation type, you can order it in with Thermal Foam or Full Foam. I would go with the Tub that feels best to you in a wet test. I was going to buy a Cal Spa over the Arctic Spa but ended up getting one at Costco at half the price with more features than the Cal Spa. I know the Costco spa (by Hydro-Spa) as not as good as either of these two, but for the money I think I got a good deal. My prefrence of these two is the Cal Spa, I did not like the feel of the Arctic. I was going to get a Cal Spa with full foam. I liked the Arctic Spa's Thermal Foam just as well however. I think either of these two would be as good a spa as you can get. (except for the internet kings spas Jim_the_Jim HA HA)

Out of curiousity, which Arctic did you not like the "feel" of, and maybe describe your structure tall, overweight maybe? skinny? short? did you try them all and they all suck? all the posts ive seen from you say you dont like the "feel" of them, just curious as what it is you didnt like, not trying to offend you, so don't take it personally.

[John Karna]

How does the water "flow" if there is no power?? the pump area would freeze first, heater etc., it was a "what if" there was a power problem, what would happen, in the Arctic the underside of the tub is in common air as the motor, plumbing, control panel, heater therefore protected for some days using the "heat" that is "locked" in the tub area.

Perhaps "flow" was not the best word.

The FF will hold heat longer than a TP, but keeps it isolated from the pumps. Will there be any thermal transfer via the water in the tub-pipe-pump?

Despite the term "Heet lock" the heat is far from locked. It's just a word.

[Glenn]

Perhaps "flow" was not the best word.

The FF will hold heat longer than a TP, but keeps it isolated from the pumps. Will there be any thermal transfer via the water in the tub-pipe-pump?

Despite the term "Heet lock" the heat is far from locked. It's just a word.

According to whom does the ff hold the heat longer, Arctic has done tests with there 5" cast-core cover, 5 days at -20 celcius, no freezing, that would be probably no wind, Im just trying to say the Arctic method you would less likely lose any equiptment in the case of winter power anomally, they also have posted tests at an independant lab of effieciency's under diferent conditions with a few brands of tubs and seemed to come out on top, you might want to look on there web site, I didnt buy it for effieciency, I bought one because of its construction qualitys, all the good qualitys they claim is just bonus to me and I liked the seating arrangement, the Tundra is a perfect family tub.

[John Karna]

According to common sense. A box fully foamed with insulation will keep the water warmer than a box with less insulation. In the event of power loss and freezing temps, a TP design will transfer the heat from the water to cabinet, thus keeping the pumps warmer. However the cabinet will be loosing heat faster than the FF because the cabinet has less insulation. The ff water will remain hotter longer, but transfer less heat to the equipment.

But that's all side chatter. I was just curious if there would be any significant heat transfer from the water to pumps in a ff tub via the pipes. Although the water isn't flowing, it is transfering heat from hot to cold along the pipes and to the pump, no? My question was, how much and would it make any difference?

[wesj53]

Back to the original question. I like the Arctic Spa's insulation method, I like the Cal Spa's feel and layout. The Cal Spa is available with either insulation type, you can order it in with Thermal Foam or Full Foam. I would go with the Tub that feels best to you in a wet test. I was going to buy a Cal Spa over the Arctic Spa but ended up getting one at Costco at half the price with more features than the Cal Spa. I know the Costco spa (by Hydro-Spa) as not as good as either of these two, but for the money I think I got a good deal. My prefrence of these two is the Cal Spa, I did not like the feel of the Arctic. I was going to get a Cal Spa with full foam. I liked the Arctic Spa's Thermal Foam just as well however. I think either of these two would be as good a spa as you can get. (except for the internet kings spas Jim_the_Jim HA HA)

I am VERY sorry to tell you dlynn that you may have made one of the poorest choices of spas. I checked out HydroSpa early in my search process and while I found their Omni to be almost exactly what I wanted, I found the company to be unsatisfactorily rated by BBB with many complaints lodged against them. Secondly, both dealers here in metro Chicago have recently dropped the company's line due to quality and service problems. Thirdly, pls refer to the thread Costco Platinum elite spas which will give you some idea of what problems people have had with the HydroSpa line. If I were you, I would cancel my order with Costco or return the unit immediately. Just my thoughts - buyer be aware in the spa industry like most others!

p.s. I agree with Glenn, albeit biased as a fellow Tundra owner, what did you not like about the line? IMO, the corner seats are second to none in terms of comfort. The backs are slightly reclined, they all have armrests, and each one has full sets of jets including either dedicated or shared foot jets. Then there are 3 more "cool down" seats all at various depths. In fact, no one seat in the Tundra is the same size nor sits at the same level so there should be choices for every body size and type.

[Chas]

Easy guys - we're friendly board here....

I have a hard and fast rule about discussing FF vs. TP and it's this:

There are no hard and fast rules.

The Arctic system may very well last two weeks at -20 but look at it, it has close to four inches on the inside of the cabinet, full foam up around the lip of the spa, and I bet it's got close to 6" at the base. That, my friends, is Full Foam. Yes, they have left a gap for the plumbing, and yes, the motors are in that gap. That means that the motors will stay warm.

But - getting back to the 'hard and fast' bit, not all TP spas have that much foam. Many of them have FAR less foam, so when the power dies, the heat loss is much faster. It, as was said above, is common sense that a tub with very little insulation will cool faster when the power is off.

As to the heat bleeding or transfering or whatever, again, there are no hard and fast rules. Some tubs have designs which allow the tub to keep the motor compartment safely warm in a power outage even though there is some insulation between the motor compartment and the spa shell - HotSpring is one of those - while others purposely leave off any and all insulation on the spa shell right in the motor area. Caldera is one of those.

But those two makers are lumped into the FF camp - so again I say -

Be nice. And allow for the fact that not all FF tubs are created equal, and not all TP tubs are created equal.

BTW - I would politely ask that people refrain from making disparaging remarks about a spa that somebody just plunked down money on. They have worked through a tough process, and taken the big step. If you have a personal story to tell (I had one and it was nothing but trouble, or I had one and it was great) that's fine, but otherwise where is the value in telling them that 'you chose the worst...'

OK?

[Roger]

Easy guys - we're friendly board here....

I have a hard and fast rule about discussing FF vs. TP and it's this:

There are no hard and fast rules.

The Arctic system may very well last two weeks at -20 but look at it, it has close to four inches on the inside of the cabinet, full foam up around the lip of the spa, and I bet it's got close to 6" at the base. That, my friends, is Full Foam. Yes, they have left a gap for the plumbing, and yes, the motors are in that gap. That means that the motors will stay warm.

But - getting back to the 'hard and fast' bit, not all TP spas have that much foam. Many of them have FAR less foam, so when the power dies, the heat loss is much faster. It, as was said above, is common sense that a tub with very little insulation will cool faster when the power is off.

As to the heat bleeding or transfering or whatever, again, there are no hard and fast rules. Some tubs have designs which allow the tub to keep the motor compartment safely warm in a power outage even though there is some insulation between the motor compartment and the spa shell - HotSpring is one of those - while others purposely leave off any and all insulation on the spa shell right in the motor area. Caldera is one of those.

But those two makers are lumped into the FF camp - so again I say -

Be nice. And allow for the fact that not all FF tubs are created equal, and not all TP tubs are created equal.

BTW - I would politely ask that people refrain from making disparaging remarks about a spa that somebody just plunked down money on. They have worked through a tough process, and taken the big step. If you have a personal story to tell (I had one and it was nothing but trouble, or I had one and it was great) that's fine, but otherwise where is the value in telling them that 'you chose the worst...'

OK?

Ok Chas....but then wouldn't a design that had adjusted foam on the shell (by adjusted I mean thinner by the equipment and thicker everywhere else) but not fully foamed so there was air space and the warmth generated by the motor could transfer into the vessel and back in a power outage situation be a better design than both?..........

Not sure how to make 2 quotes Al Sometimes when I edit a post it then puts my next post in the same post, which works for me.

[Chas]

Ok Chas....but then wouldn't a design... ...better design than both?

I think there is no best design. There are systems which work slightly better than others, but there are trade-offs and compromises in all of them.

[Roger]

I think there is no best design. There are systems which work slightly better than others, but there are trade-offs and compromises in all of them.

Wow....a politician also. Good work.

[dlynn]

I am VERY sorry to tell you dlynn that you may have made one of the poorest choices of spas. I checked out HydroSpa early in my search process and while I found their Omni to be almost exactly what I wanted, I found the company to be unsatisfactorily rated by BBB with many complaints lodged against them. Secondly, both dealers here in metro Chicago have recently dropped the company's line due to quality and service problems. Thirdly, pls refer to the thread Costco Platinum elite spas which will give you some idea of what problems people have had with the HydroSpa line. If I were you, I would cancel my order with Costco or return the unit immediately. Just my thoughts - buyer be aware in the spa industry like most others!

p.s. I agree with Glenn, albeit biased as a fellow Tundra owner, what did you not like about the line? IMO, the corner seats are second to none in terms of comfort. The backs are slightly reclined, they all have armrests, and each one has full sets of jets including either dedicated or shared foot jets. Then there are 3 more "cool down" seats all at various depths. In fact, no one seat in the Tundra is the same size nor sits at the same level so there should be choices for every body size and type.

I did a lot of research when I bought my tub, and you are wrong about the BBB (You have already apoligized to the readers once for making this false claim, why do you repeat it again). I read the Florida BBB report and there were only a few complaints in the past 3 years, all resolved to some degree. I read every complaint and resolution posted on the BBB site. I did read the forums and saw lots of happy and sad consumers, the same is true on the forums of every brand, dealer support is always the biggest complaint of evey brand. Every company has complaints and for the size of the company Hydro Spa is no worse than any other. I knew all the good an bad about my spa before I purchased it and I am still very happy with my purchase. I am sorry you had a bad experience with the local dealers.

As far as comfort in the Arctic, it was not what I was looking for. I don't want my grand kids tripping on those arm rests, and I just didn't like the layout or the feel. Comfort and likes are different for different people and I think the Arctic would be a great choice for someone if they like its layout. It is probably the best insulated spa idea out there. (I know you FF guys won't agree, that is why it is such a big topic item)

[wesj53]

I didn't mean to offend dlynn as I mentioned; rather just wanted to pass along my findings. Yes, I did retract my statement about "hundreds" of complaints against Hydro Spa, but they are still rated as "unsatisfactory" by BBB, a rating that a company really has to "work at" to attain. And unlike most other companies who have complaints but resolve them amicably with their customers, Hydro has many that were "resolved" without customer agreement. Look, I mentioned that I really wanted to buy their Omni but couldn't find it or wet test in a market of 7MM people. When their only 2 dealers drop them, it was an omen to me of bad things to follow my purchase. But like I said before, I wish you the very best and hope you get a good unit.

[Chas]

Yes, I did retract my statement about "hundreds" of complaints against Hydro Spa, but they are still rated as "unsatisfactory" by BBB, a rating that a company really has to "work at" to attain.

Thanks for taking time to clarify this.

[dlynn]

I didn't mean to offend dlynn as I mentioned; rather just wanted to pass along my findings. Yes, I did retract my statement about "hundreds" of complaints against Hydro Spa, but they are still rated as "unsatisfactory" by BBB, a rating that a company really has to "work at" to attain. And unlike most other companies who have complaints but resolve them amicably with their customers, Hydro has many that were "resolved" without customer agreement. Look, I mentioned that I really wanted to buy their Omni but couldn't find it or wet test in a market of 7MM people. When their only 2 dealers drop them, it was an omen to me of bad things to follow my purchase. But like I said before, I wish you the very best and hope you get a good unit.

You are still mis-representing the BBB report. I just read the entire BBBsouthflorida report on Hydro-Spa and there is no where in the report that gives them an unsatisfactory rating. Please give us your source, I would like to see it if you are right. They have had 14 complaints filed against them in the past 3 years, all resolved, yes some customers may not be happy, but some customers can not be satisfied no matter what you do. I do not think 14 complaints is bad for the size of the company. Are you sure you are not looking at a dealers rating. Of the 14 complaints only one did the BBB state that the company failed to resolve the issue, 3 the BBB agreed that the company made a reasonable offer to resolve but the customers were still unhappy, all the rest were either listed as resolved to the customers satisfaction or the customers did not respond back to BBB after the company resolution. As a comparison Cal Spa had 91 complaints in the same period of time (8 where BBB stated that Cal Spa refused to honor their agreement), but they are bigger.

[wesj53]

You are still mis-representing the BBB report. I just read the entire BBBsouthflorida report on Hydro-Spa and there is no where in the report that gives them an unsatisfactory rating. Please give us your source, I would like to see it if you are right. They have had 14 complaints filed against them in the past 3 years, all resolved, yes some customers may not be happy, but some customers can not be satisfied no matter what you do. I do not think 14 complaints is bad for the size of the company. Are you sure you are not looking at a dealers rating. Of the 14 complaints only one did the BBB state that the company failed to resolve the issue, 3 the BBB agreed that the company made a reasonable offer to resolve but the customers were still unhappy, all the rest were either listed as resolved to the customers satisfaction or the customers did not respond back to BBB after the company resolution. As a comparison Cal Spa had 91 complaints in the same period of time (8 where BBB stated that Cal Spa refused to honor their agreement), but they are bigger.

When I was doing my research on all companies dlynn (about a month ago), the rating for HydroSpa WAS unsatisfactory with 15 complaints. I looked them up again this am after reading your message and they now have NO rating, neither satisfactory or unsatisfactory. So BBB must have changed it recently, but they still show the 14 complaints. Hydro Spa is also NOT a BBB member, which may be of concern to some.

[Dr. Spa]

Hydro Spa is also NOT a BBB member, which may be of concern to some.

Why would this be of concern? What do you "think" the BBB offers to the consumer any differently if a company is, or is not, a member?

There's a lot of this out there if you look for it

http://www.thebluesmokeband.com/bbb.php

I'd dig up some more for you, but I have to go serve my civic duty........... Juror Dr. Spa reporting as ordered your honor.

[Dr. Spa]

Search google for;

bbb sucks

[wesj53]

Why would this be of concern? What do you "think" the BBB offers to the consumer any differently if a company is, or is not, a member?

There's a lot of this out there if you look for it

http://www.thebluesmokeband.com/bbb.php

I'd dig up some more for you, but I have to go serve my civic duty........... Juror Dr. Spa reporting as ordered your honor.

I'm not sure I put a lot of credence in the reliability of the "blue smoke band" (whoever they are) and I don't have the time nor the ambition to debate the merits of the BBB. My only point is that they offer some consumer information that may be of value when making a buying decision about hot tubs, used cars, or whatever. Something is better than nothing if it helps consumers make educated decisions. Of course, one needs to understand the rating system and to keep the number of complaints in perspective based on the size of the company being reported. Re: membership, I think any mfg of product would want to be a BBB member, for no other reason than good PR. I think for most people, this represents a company that is ethical and responsive to the needs of their customers.

[Trigger]

Search google for;

bbb sucks

That's a good tip. Thanks. Like many consumers I felt the BBB was something a wise consumer would look for, but as I get wiser, I have to agree. That's not to say the BBB can do some good, but I don't think it carries too much weight. In addition to the info a consumer can find via google, I'm finding some buisness that make a huge issue about being a memebr of the BBB are in fact completely untrustworhy and run by uscrupelous folks. I also find the BBB does not activiely police it's members. I know of one company that sells hot tubs and has time and time again been shown to have false advertising, misleading information, and unfounded technical information allowed to show the BBB logo. It's ironic, because the company I am thinking about also advertises it refuses to participate in organizations that promote products and awards based on membership and $$, but yet, shove the BBB logo in your face despite mountians of information showing they are lying thieves.

FOlks Google BBB Sucks.

[dlynn]

Hydro Spa is also NOT a BBB member, which may be of concern to some.

It apears from my Google Search of "BBB Sucks" that being a BBB member is a concern. BBB is a orginazation that makes its money by membership and they don't give negative ratings to their members without lots of complaints, but they do give negative ratings eaiser to non member businesses. So joining the BBB will get you a better rating, they don't want to loose their $$$ by giving a bad rating to members. So buyer beware if they post BBB Membership. The BBB is not much more than a paid advertising service. A Google Search of "BBB Sucks" gives 283,000 Hits. Hummm, lots of people are mad at the BBB for giving good ratings to its members.

[wesj53]

It apears from my Google Search of "BBB Sucks" that being a BBB member is a concern. BBB is a orginazation that makes its money by membership and they don't give negative ratings to their members without lots of complaints, but they do give negative ratings eaiser to non member businesses. So joining the BBB will get you a better rating, they don't want to loose their $$$ by giving a bad rating to members. So buyer beware if they post BBB Membership. The BBB is not much more than a paid advertising service. A Google Search of "BBB Sucks" gives 283,000 Hits. Hummm, lots of people are mad at the BBB for giving good ratings to its members.

If you want to believe posts on a site called "BBB Sucks" that is your perogative. All I'm saying is that a BBB is another tool a consumer can use to try and judge the reliability of a company in taking care of it's customer. But if you have the time to really research BBB and how it conducts it's affairs, why don't you contact them directly and report back to us "uninformed" about it's practices, rather than relying on a questionable website?