Cal Spas Avalon Vs. Arctic Yukon?

[Trigger]

Pin head Jim tries to make this comment....

"plugged in and run for 10 years with not problems."

Gee that's a funny statement since you haven't even been in business that long.

Kinda invaldates everything else you say. Why the hell can't you just tell the truth and stop your BS? Are you that full of it that it comes out in everything you say?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Pin head Jim tries to make this comment....

Gee that's a funny statement since you haven't even been in business that long.

Kinda invaldates everything else you say. Why the hell can't you just tell the truth and stop your BS? Are you that full of it that it comes out in everything you say?

Actually we have been in business for 10 years and we have spas from the first brand we offered that are still running on the original equipment.

You might want to give us the update on your POS spa you have after a few years. I doubt that you will ever tell anyone all the problems you are going to have.

I have plenty of friends who are service techs and they all say the same thing that I do.

[Chas]

In Arjuna-land, that means "friend".

I like it when I go into town and people don't throw things at me.

Jim, I'm sure you don't have a clue what you did to anger these folks, but if you could relax and laugh half as hard as I am, you might actually enjoy it. You have been quite a character on these various boards, and some of this humor is right on target.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Jim, I'm sure you don't have a clue what you did to anger these folks, but if you could relax and laugh half as hard as I am, you might actually enjoy it. You have been quite a character on these various boards, and some of this humor is right on target.

Actually I do have a clue. When you speak the truth to a bunch of people who believe in fairy tales, you get a lot of hate.

This has been shown throughout history. The person with the good information that goes against the ignorance of the time, is much hated.

I have said for years that the only thing that will get rid of full foam spas is for all the old fools who, believe in the nonsense to retire or die out in time.

After another 20 years there will be no full foam spas being made, because it is already out of date.

Then we have a person, you, who somehow comes up with the most concocted bull crap I have ever read to keep themselves in the dark and ignorant as can be. I could put 10,000 photos up of spas that are UL listed, and you still would be in heavy denial. That is really sad for you.

You do not have to continue to be a pupet for some ugly corporation who has ruined Jon Watkins products.

You need to start catching up to new technology. Your knowlege is about 10 years out of date at least.

[Brulan1]

Actually I do have a clue. When you speak the truth to a bunch of people who believe in fairy tales, you get a lot of hate.

This has been shown throughout history. The person with the good information that goes against the ignorance of the time, is much hated.

I have said for years that the only thing that will get rid of full foam spas is for all the old fools who, believe in the nonsense to retire or die out in time.

After another 20 years there will be no full foam spas being made, because it is already out of date.

Then we have a person, you, who somehow comes up with the most concocted bull crap I have ever read to keep themselves in the dark and ignorant as can be. I could put 10,000 photos up of spas that are UL listed, and you still would be in heavy denial. That is really sad for you.

You do not have to continue to be a pupet for some ugly corporation who has ruined Jon Watkins products.

You need to start catching up to new technology. Your knowlege is about 10 years out of date at least.

Do you really have that much debt outstanding that you cannot pay?

[Roger]

Actually I do have a clue. When you speak the truth to a bunch of people who believe in fairy tales, you get a lot of hate.

This has been shown throughout history. The person with the good information that goes against the ignorance of the time, is much hated.

Who on here hates Jim? I for one do not, heck I don't even know Jim except for his looney toons, sales tactics and opinions on these forums he is a speck of nothing in my life, sorry Jim that's all there is, no hate.

[Stevie]

Who on here hates Jim? I for one do not, heck I don't even know Jim except for his looney toons, sales tactics and opinions on these forums he is a speck of nothing in my life, sorry Jim that's all there is, no hate.

I don't hate him... I just feel sorry for him and his family...

Roger, would you mind if I called the "feds" on you? I've just ALWAYS wanted to use that threat on someone... It sounds so MANLY and all...

[Roger]

I don't hate him... I just feel sorry for him and his family...

Roger, would you mind if I called the "feds" on you? I've just ALWAYS wanted to use that threat on someone... It sounds so MANLY and all...

Go ahead Steve....no wait, can you wait 2 more years, cause my son will be out of college then with his associates in Law Enforcment. And maybe he can stop over and spend some time if he gets the call.

Although he is also persuing Forestry, and Conservation laws as he wants to be a Game Warden or Federal Foresty Enforcment.

Me see's a pettern here., when they were growing up, both my boys, we spent every minute we could in the woods, hunting and fishing, seems I have created a woodsman.

[Brulan1]

Go ahead Steve....no wait, can you wait 2 more years, cause my son will be out of college then with his associates in Law Enforcment. And maybe he can stop over and spend some time if he gets the call.

Although he is also persuing Forestry, and Conservation laws as he wants to be a Game Warden or Federal Foresty Enforcment.

Me see's a pettern here., when they were growing up, both my boys, we spent every minute we could in the woods, hunting and fishing, seems I have created a woodsman.

Oh no roger, you have created a woodpecker.

[SpaMan]

I hope I am not too late with my response to your question, but wife and I also were very interested in the Avalon series #A857B. It had fantastic seating and lots of jets with a center footjet well with volcano. Unfortunately, in a metro area of over 7mm (Chicago) neither dealer chain who are supposed to sell Cal Spas have even one to wet test. They barely even have any on their floors! I was told that there have been considerable problems with the product over the last few years with replacement parts hardly in existence. Jets are on indefinite backorder which means good luck getting them any time soon. So dealers pull back and avoid further headaches caused by the mfg. OR, Cal Spas pays less commission; therefore the dealers decide to sell one of their other brands. I do not know the truth for sure, but it is very discouraging not being able to test one of their spas in an area this size. If the problem is not with Cal Spas, why don't they appoint new dealers here or is the problem with the mfg. BBB gives them a satisfactory rating although they do have hundreds of complaints lodged against them. But CS is huge with many products other than spas so I discount the complaint size. I have heard from many though that jets popping out of their spas is a real problem. That has been corroborated even on this site. We are visiting an Arctic dealer within the next week to wet test their Tundra. I like their TP design as well and think it would do well here in Northern IL. We also would like to test the Vita Rendevous. Does anyone know anything about them?

All lies as its the dealer that has 17 locations, his lack of pushing Cal Spas has nothing to do with jets falling out a simple fact of the matter is that he is currently buying at better rates from another factory possibly getting some sort of flooring plan that costs nearly nothing. I tried to transfer a fifteen thousand dollar deal to him that I sold to one of the Broncos, who has a house in the Chicago area, and he was so arrogant he wouldnt even deliver it. So the Bronco had to go buy from him directly. I can surely imagine that the factory has got to have a plan to yank the line from this guy. The Avalon series is a rockin tub our response has been phenominal and people love it because theres so much to it yet the price is is a great value on every model. Hundreds of complaints about the factory or the dealer?

[TBK]

Everyone keeps talking about your studies done on energy efficiency. well now we have a goverment agency testing these spas. so none of you are very efficient check out this link from the energy council of california

http://xxx.energy.ca.gov/appliances/applia.../pool_products/

Everyone is overstating there efficiency just thought all of you should know you have been lying, don't even see arctic on this study????

[wesj53]

All lies as its the dealer that has 17 locations, his lack of pushing Cal Spas has nothing to do with jets falling out a simple fact of the matter is that he is currently buying at better rates from another factory possibly getting some sort of flooring plan that costs nearly nothing. I tried to transfer a fifteen thousand dollar deal to him that I sold to one of the Broncos, who has a house in the Chicago area, and he was so arrogant he wouldnt even deliver it. So the Bronco had to go buy from him directly. I can surely imagine that the factory has got to have a plan to yank the line from this guy. The Avalon series is a rockin tub our response has been phenominal and people love it because theres so much to it yet the price is is a great value on every model. Hundreds of complaints about the factory or the dealer?

I don't like to be called a liar, SpaMan. I specifically stated to the forum the exact reason one of the multi-location dealers told me as to why they are not actively selling the Cal Spa line. (problems with jets, lack of service, etc). I mentioned that either problems with Cal Spa OR more profitability from selling another line were the reasons why their dealers were literally inactive here. (You even admitted I think that the dealer may be getting a deal from another mfg.) I did not mention any names so you do not know which one of their multi-location dealers I was referring to. So how do you know what his reasons for not selling Cal Spas? Then you mention your customer bought from him directly. Does your poor writing mean he bought from Cal Spa directly? I called Cal Spa and asked if I could buy from them directly and they said no; that either one of their dealers here should be able to sell ANY model they make. But this is not the case, as the other dealer sells only 2 of their models.

Geez, some of you dealers are sure defensive about your brands. Plus, you don't read very carefully. I wanted to try and test a Cal Spa and specifically mentioned the Avalon series. I was writing to get opinions as to why one can't test a Cal Spa in a market the size of Chicago. I wasn't ripping them for lack of quality; just relaying what one of their dealers told me. Plus, Cal Spa does have hundreds of complaints against them on the BBB site, but I also stated I discounted them since Cal Spa is such a large company with multiple product lines. Why don't you re-read my post SpaMan and think about what I REALLY wrote?

[Roger]

Geez, some of you dealers are sure defensive about your brands. Plus, you don't read very carefully. I wanted to try and test a Cal Spa and specifically mentioned the Avalon series. I was writing to get opinions as to why one can't test a Cal Spa in a market the size of Chicago. I wasn't ripping them for lack of quality; just relaying what one of their dealers told me. Plus, Cal Spa does have hundreds of complaints against them on the BBB site, but I also stated I discounted them since Cal Spa is such a large company with multiple product lines. Why don't you re-read my post SpaMan and think about what I REALLY wrote?

I find consumers are a bit more defensive about justifying there decisions than most dealers are about there brand. But hey SPAMAN lighten up brother. If a consumer was convinced by a particular sales pitch that the brand they bought is the best out there, you will never convince them that there are others that have a better record for longevity and performance that may be better, or you will never convine them that theres is about the same as several others. This is just the way it is.

IMO if you want an independent evaluation of any brand including the one you have purchased, the dealer or a competing dealer is not the place to get it. You need to find an independent service person, a truely independent one that works for all the dealers in his area and services all brands and talk to them. Oh...I am one of those......LOL

[wesj53]

I find consumers are a bit more defensive about justifying there decisions than most dealers are about there brand. But hey SPAMAN lighten up brother. If a consumer was convinced by a particular sales pitch that the brand they bought is the best out there, you will never convince them that there are others that have a better record for longevity and performance that may be better, or you will never convine them that theres is about the same as several others. This is just the way it is.

IMO if you want an independent evaluation of any brand including the one you have purchased, the dealer or a competing dealer is not the place to get it. You need to find an independent service person, a truely independent one that works for all the dealers in his area and services all brands and talk to them. Oh...I am one of those......LOL

Good morning Roger. I'm not sure of the relevance of your post in response to mine. SpaMan totally misread my post, implying that I was attacking Cal Spa. I WAS NOT; rather voicing a complaint about their dealers here in Chicago. I was not defending the brand which I purchased nor do I think I "fell" for a sales pitch. I am an educated consumer who did a lot of research and then purchased what I thought was the best available product in the market. Maybe consumers are defensive because they have made a big ticket purchase which they will have to live with for many years. But I do agree with you about finding independent voices who have no biases or allegiances to one brand or another. Unfortunately, they are few and far between.

[Roger]

Good morning Roger. I'm not sure of the relevance of your post in response to mine. SpaMan totally misread my post, implying that I was attacking Cal Spa. I WAS NOT; rather voicing a complaint about their dealers here in Chicago. I was not defending the brand which I purchased nor do I think I "fell" for a sales pitch. I am an educated consumer who did a lot of research and then purchased what I thought was the best available product in the market. Maybe consumers are defensive because they have made a big ticket purchase which they will have to live with for many years. But I do agree with you about finding independent voices who have no biases or allegiances to one brand or another. Unfortunately, they are few and far between.

My post was not meant to belittle you or your opinion, my post was designed to even out the playing field. While I believe Arctic is a fine tub, there are many owners out there who are convinced they are the best tub on the market based on there research because they are educated consumers. And while you may feel it is the best tub on the market and that's why you bought it. I feel they are a fine tub but no better than several and not as good as a few. That is based on my experience and my research. Every time I try and level the playing feild for consumers somehow it is construed as bashing Arctic when that is truely not my intent. Arctic is represented by some fine people, there sales department has toned down the pitch a bit which has helped there reputation. There insulation style while unique is miles away from perfect. The product in general is top notch but not on the top of the heap. But it obviously was for you and that's fine.

Just responding to your acusation of the dealers defensiveness regarding there brands, I truely find consumers to be more defensive of the brand they own, no matter what brand it is. You are the perfect example of this, you say you didn't fall for a sales pitch yet you bought the best tub on the market. I am however glad you did say "you feel it is" Because that part is true.

Again no hard feelings, it's a box of hot water and its pretty easy to make.

[grahamtasia]

My post was not meant to belittle you or your opinion, my post was designed to even out the playing field. While I believe Arctic is a fine tub, there are many owners out there who are convinced they are the best tub on the market based on there research because they are educated consumers. And while you may feel it is the best tub on the market and that's why you bought it. I feel they are a fine tub but no better than several and not as good as a few. That is based on my experience and my research. Every time I try and level the playing feild for consumers somehow it is construed as bashing Arctic when that is truely not my intent. Arctic is represented by some fine people, there sales department has toned down the pitch a bit which has helped there reputation. There insulation style while unique is miles away from perfect. The product in general is top notch but not on the top of the heap. But it obviously was for you and that's fine.

Just responding to your acusation of the dealers defensiveness regarding there brands, I truely find consumers to be more defensive of the brand they own, no matter what brand it is. You are the perfect example of this, you say you didn't fall for a sales pitch yet you bought the best tub on the market. I am however glad you did say "you feel it is" Because that part is true.

Again no hard feelings, it's a box of hot water and its pretty easy to make.

Thats a nice way of stating your opinion.

[wesj53]

My post was not meant to belittle you or your opinion, my post was designed to even out the playing field. While I believe Arctic is a fine tub, there are many owners out there who are convinced they are the best tub on the market based on there research because they are educated consumers. And while you may feel it is the best tub on the market and that's why you bought it. I feel they are a fine tub but no better than several and not as good as a few. That is based on my experience and my research. Every time I try and level the playing feild for consumers somehow it is construed as bashing Arctic when that is truely not my intent. Arctic is represented by some fine people, there sales department has toned down the pitch a bit which has helped there reputation. There insulation style while unique is miles away from perfect. The product in general is top notch but not on the top of the heap. But it obviously was for you and that's fine.

Just responding to your acusation of the dealers defensiveness regarding there brands, I truely find consumers to be more defensive of the brand they own, no matter what brand it is. You are the perfect example of this, you say you didn't fall for a sales pitch yet you bought the best tub on the market. I am however glad you did say "you feel it is" Because that part is true.

Again no hard feelings, it's a box of hot water and its pretty easy to make.

I appreciate your imput so I will ask you to tell me in your opinion who makes a better product in the market than Arctic and the reasons for your thoughts. Also, I'm curious as to why you think people believe you are bashing Arctic when you "level the playing field" by injecting your comments. Is that only true for Arctic or do you receive the same reactions from owners of other brands? Here's another take I have on the industry and the "players" who have been on this site for years. It seems to me that there are about 5 mfgs. who don't seem to critique each other; they being Hot Springs(Caldera), Dimension One, Sundance, and Jacuzzi. Does my observation have any merit? I know they are probably the biggest, but are they necessarily the best? Besides Jim, I don't recall any of you industry-types ever mentioning any problems with any of these brands. They also can't be perfect. Your thoughts?

[SpaMan]

I appreciate your imput so I will ask you to tell me in your opinion who makes a better product in the market than Arctic and the reasons for your thoughts. Also, I'm curious as to why you think people believe you are bashing Arctic when you "level the playing field" by injecting your comments. Is that only true for Arctic or do you receive the same reactions from owners of other brands? Here's another take I have on the industry and the "players" who have been on this site for years. It seems to me that there are about 5 mfgs. who don't seem to critique each other; they being Hot Springs(Caldera), Dimension One, Sundance, and Jacuzzi. Does my observation have any merit? I know they are probably the biggest, but are they necessarily the best? Besides Jim, I don't recall any of you industry-types ever mentioning any problems with any of these brands. They also can't be perfect. Your thoughts?

They have all had problems at one time or another, the difference is how each company deals with and takes care of the problems. Some companies get right on it , others deny and hide their problems. Thats the difference.

[Altazi]

They have all had problems at one time or another, the difference is how each company deals with and takes care of the problems. Some companies get right on it , others deny and hide their problems. Thats the difference.

Hello All,

Perhaps a customer vigorously defends his choice in part to reinforce his own belief that it was, in fact, a good choice. Unfortunately, "belief" plays a major part in the choice, since it seems nearly impossible to base his decision on any unbiased, factual information.

As a consumer who has yet to purchase a spa, I have found it difficult to find unbiased information on this (and other) websites. There are no truly independent ratings or evaluations to be found (*see note), as far as I can see. There are clear divides between groups supporting TP vs. FF, fiberglass/acrylic vs. ABS/acrylic, with almost religious levels of fervor. If a consumer tries to educate himself about anything on the INSIDE of the spa, may God have mercy on his lost soul!

I have tried to find information from repair technicians, and in fact posted a series of questions about the same - and got little in the way of replies.

So, once again, I ask you impartial repair techs: what do you see in the spas you repair? Which spas seem to have robust designs, and which seem to be "bug-prone"? Which manufacturers are easy to work with, have good service reputations, and have readily available repair parts? Which manufacturers give you fits? Come on, guys - cough up!

Regards,

Altazi

(*Note: I did see one third-party test of energy use of Arctic Spas with some of the major competition. The study was done by a reputable test facility. Even so, there are debates about whether the test was done fairly, as the Arctic Spa cover is thicker than most standard covers provided with the other tested spas.)

[Roger]

I appreciate your imput so I will ask you to tell me in your opinion who makes a better product in the market than Arctic and the reasons for your thoughts. Also, I'm curious as to why you think people believe you are bashing Arctic when you "level the playing field" by injecting your comments. Is that only true for Arctic or do you receive the same reactions from owners of other brands? Here's another take I have on the industry and the "players" who have been on this site for years. It seems to me that there are about 5 mfgs. who don't seem to critique each other; they being Hot Springs(Caldera), Dimension One, Sundance, and Jacuzzi. Does my observation have any merit? I know they are probably the biggest, but are they necessarily the best? Besides Jim, I don't recall any of you industry-types ever mentioning any problems with any of these brands. They also can't be perfect. Your thoughts?

Yes your observation has merit and IMHO is right on the money, and I can also tell you why. Because all those mentioned know there tubs will last for 15-20 years with very little problems relative to how many they sell. In other words good quality. I however would put Sundance and Jacuzzi slightly below HS and D1 and I am not a big HS fan (as everyone here knows) but there is no denying there longevity. I have dispposed of over 20 year old HS that were still solid, and repairable. I am not one to state which brands I think are the best or the worst except in private, one reason is there are several I call great tubs and anyone of them could be the right tub for certain people, just as Arctic was right for you. And I am not here to offend owners. My opinion is based on my repair experience which includes 20-30 brands and just about all the major brands. FYI I have only seen 2 Arctics in my area, one about 4 years old I replaced a pump in and another my neighbor owns and he fixes it himself, I have soaked in his before and several other models in MPLS/STP, theres no dealer in my area. I think Marquis makes a great product. There are several great value brands (bang for the buck) I think Beachcomber makes a great tub Dynasty, Saratoga, Catalina, Emerald, you want to see a quality cabinet check out Diamante and there are several from this list that again can be a great value and may give 10-15 years for half the money of some of the better known brands.

Artesian Spas

Atera AnyTemp Spas

Bradford Spas

Charisma Spas

Easy Life Spas

Great Lakes Spas

Hydropool Spas

PDC Spas

Royal Spas

Sonoma Spas

Sunbelt Spas Affordable Spas

Apollo Spas

Aries Spas

Baja Spas

BullFrog Spas

Comfort Line

Coleman Spas

Galaxy Aquatics Inc

Gatsby Spas

Honey Tubs

Morgan Spas

Nordic Hot Tubs

North West Spas

QCA Spas

Sedona Spas

Soft Tub

Sweetwater Spas

Aber Hot Tub Mfg

Action Spas Inc

Creative Design

Diamondback Spas

Freeflow Spas

Honey Spas

Hydro Wave Spas

Millennium Spas

Moon Water Spas

Quantum Products

Rocky Mountain Spas

Southland Spa

Spas and Such 4U

Sunrise Spas

Viking Spas Almost Heaven Tubs

Arizona Pacific Spas

Astra Spas

Adventure Spas

Blueridge Spas

BPS Spas

Canadian Hot Tubs

Crestline Spas

Dolphin Spas

Great Northern

Holiday Spas

Hydro-Health Spas

Shore Line Leisure

Streamline Mfg

Sunset Spas

Waters Edge Spa

Barefoot Spas

Caldera Spas

Clearwater Spas

Coast Spas

Dimension One Spas

Dynasty Spas

Gulf Coast Spas

Garden Leisure Spas

Hot Spot Spas

Hawkeye Spas

Hydro Spas

Master Spas

Phoenix Spas

Reflections Spas

Sundance Spas

Solana Spa

Tiger River Spas

Vita Spa

If a particular person wants advice on a particular brand if I have either wet tested it or worked on it or know someone who owns one than I can give my advice based on my knowledge and the durability of the components used for that brand.

If I left anyone out I apoligize in advance or your not worth mentioning....whatever!!!!!

So, once again, I ask you impartial repair techs: what do you see in the spas you repair? Which spas seem to have robust designs, and which seem to be "bug-prone"? Which manufacturers are easy to work with, have good service reputations, and have readily available repair parts? Which manufacturers give you fits? Come on, guys - cough up!

Regards,

Altazi

(*Note: I did see one third-party test of energy use of Arctic Spas with some of the major competition. The study was done by a reputable test facility. Even so, there are debates about whether the test was done fairly, as the Arctic Spa cover is thicker than most standard covers provided with the other tested spas.)

Al...LOL you keep asking this and your not getting anywhere. I have a few that I consider not good values but they all have dealers and customers that may have good luck or are happy with there tubs. And offending anyoe here is not my style. PM me and I can tell you a couple to avoid, because I am married to them and repair them consistantly. They are my bread and butter.

[Dr. Spa]

(*Note: I did see one third-party test of energy use of Arctic Spas with some of the major competition. The study was done by a reputable test facility. Even so, there are debates about whether the test was done fairly, as the Arctic Spa cover is thicker than most standard covers provided with the other tested spas.)

I haven't commented on this in a while, but feel the need once again. This "study" was discussed adnausium(I spelled that so bad my spell check has no sugestions ) when the results of the "study" were first made public.

First, I should say I commend Arctic for having this study performed. I also respect them for using it in their marketing........... I do though question the results and how they pertain to the real world.

The study, as it was done, was done quite well. Take a number of spas, right "off the shelf", and compare them in a controlled environment. It makes for a test that not only gives hard cold results, but is also easy to duplicate in the future with other spas. There's no need to retest spas that have already been tested, assuming they haven't changed in design........... By the way, Hot Spring Spas has done similar testing, but only on their own models.

That said, the test is all well and fine for what it is. A test in a controlled, non-real world environment...... The results of which quite possibly have NO real world application. The test was missing the two most important aspects that pertain to the real world.

The first is actual usage of the spa. Regardless of how well a spa might be sealed up, once you take the cover off, your going to lose heat like mad. Possibly more heat loss in the time you use it, than in the time it's not being used. Different spas will lose different amounts of heat while being used, and it may not be in relationship only to the exposed surface area.

The second, and probably most important, was the test was lacking in any air movement. i.e wind. In the real world wind is the biggest theft of heat that exists. It's called air infiltration. And "wind" is really much too strong of a word to use, the word(s) should be "ever so slight breeze"........ it doesn't take much air movement to rob something of heat. The slightest breeze blowing against an object will cause a high pressure on one side and a low pressure on the other. Any cracks, holes, separation in the siding, anything caused by settling (possibly over time) is going to give that heat a place to come rushing out at great speed.

Had there been a fan in the testing chamber, the results may have been significantly different. In what way I haven't a clue It's possible that Arctic could have come out further ahead. While there are some aspects of their spas that make them less impervious to air infiltration than others, there's significantly more unknowns

[Stevie]

I haven't commented on this in a while, but feel the need once again. This "study" was discussed adnausium(I spelled that so bad my spell check has no sugestions ) when the results of the "study" were first made public.

First, I should say I commend Arctic for having this study performed. I also respect them for using it in their marketing........... I do though question the results and how they pertain to the real world.

The study, as it was done, was done quite well. Take a number of spas, right "off the shelf", and compare them in a controlled environment. It makes for a test that not only gives hard cold results, but is also easy to duplicate in the future with other spas. There's no need to retest spas that have already been tested, assuming they haven't changed in design........... By the way, Hot Spring Spas has done similar testing, but only on their own models.

That said, the test is all well and fine for what it is. A test in a controlled, non-real world environment...... The results of which quite possibly have NO real world application. The test was missing the two most important aspects that pertain to the real world.

The first is actual usage of the spa. Regardless of how well a spa might be sealed up, once you take the cover off, your going to lose heat like mad. Possibly more heat loss in the time you use it, than in the time it's not being used. Different spas will lose different amounts of heat while being used, and it may not be in relationship only to the exposed surface area.

The second, and probably most important, was the test was lacking in any air movement. i.e wind. In the real world wind is the biggest theft of heat that exists. It's called air infiltration. And "wind" is really much too strong of a word to use, the word(s) should be "ever so slight breeze"........ it doesn't take much air movement to rob something of heat. The slightest breeze blowing against an object will cause a high pressure on one side and a low pressure on the other. Any cracks, holes, separation in the siding, anything caused by settling (possibly over time) is going to give that heat a place to come rushing out at great speed.

Had there been a fan in the testing chamber, the results may have been significantly different. In what way I haven't a clue It's possible that Arctic could have come out further ahead. While there are some aspects of their spas that make them less impervious to air infiltration than others, there's significantly more unknowns

Interesting insight and observations.

What would make one spa more suceptable to heat loss from the surface with the cover off taking surface area out of the equation? For eample; would a spa running a circ pump expose more heat loss due to churning? Would a spa not breaking the surface tension (not filtering) hold heat better even with the cover off? Thought provoking...

Steve

[Dr. Spa]

Evaporative cooling can be a pretty powerful "thief of heat". I would imagine that the more surface churning you have, and the more air that is inject through the jets (or blower), the more evaporative cooling there will be.

Interesting insight and observations.

What would make one spa more suceptable to heat loss from the surface with the cover off taking surface area out of the equation? For eample; would a spa running a circ pump expose more heat loss due to churning? Would a spa not breaking the surface tension (not filtering) hold heat better even with the cover off? Thought provoking...

Steve

[Glenn]

Evaporative cooling can be a pretty powerful "thief of heat". I would imagine that the more surface churning you have, and the more air that is inject through the jets (or blower), the more evaporative cooling there will be.

More importantly as part of the sales pitch is that it will stay unfrozen for 5 days at -20c, maybe thats exagerated somewhat i dont know, but my brothers Catalina will trip the breaker when the power flickers, hes had it go funky on him a couple of times when they havent used it for a few days and didnt notice the breaker had tripped, im waiting to see if it happens in the winter in a FF tub i guess you would end up buying a new tub? (be gentle)

[Chas]

in a FF tub i guess you would end up buying a new tub? (be gentle)

Other than sales rhetoric, I don't know where that idea comes from. I know dealers who sell FF tubs of various brands in some of the coldest parts of this country, and in other icy countries around the globe.

When the power goes down, the things stay warm as long or longer than TP. The heat bleeds into the motor compartment on the ones I am most familiar with - through areas around the light lens and by virtue of the fact that the wall between the motor compartment and spa is not usually as thick as the rest of the tub. This latter point will vary greatly from maker to maker. Again, on the ones I handle, the sides, bottom and top of the motor compartment are all insulated well.

But the tubs I sell also have an optional insulation kit for the equipment compartment door, and I have spoken to dealers in cold climates who put them on every spa without a thought. Here in Southern Cal, I have only seen these add-ons in the books.

If the power is going to be off for a week or more, the tub can be drained, or a very samll generator could power a simple worklight in the motor compartment.

I guess I am just not ready to accept that FF could be as popular as it is, sold around the globe the way it is, and be a consistant source of trouble in cases of frozen tubs. I realize that there are going to be special cases where no tub could survive, and if that happens to you, it is a major deal.