Economy Spas

[Tom]

Earlier this month, there was a thread on what factors a consumer could use to distinguish between an inexpensive economy spa and a higher-end unit. I had thought this would be fairly straightforward. Silly me. Eventually, I suggested a list of objective criteria that people might look at, with the hope that we would get some facts to help people.

In this post, I wrote: "I stopped by and looked at the spa at Rona. It was a Hydrospa Mark 3 (Elite). It was not full foam at all, but I couldn't see the components because the thing was on its side with the equipment bay on the top. Insulation was skimpy - 1/8" of black foam rubber and 1/4" of poly bubble wrap. Will have another look, report in detail next week if the unit is still on display."

Unfortunately, before I could get to this, there was the usual brawl and eventually the sheriff shut the topic down.

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So, I wanted to report that I did go back and give the unit a close inspection, and took my camera. It was called an "Omni" (dang! I was sure the sign said 'Elite'!) I can't say whether or not this is similar to the models sold at Costco nor do I care; I offer this only as an example of a unit that is IMO an economy spa, and to point out some things that a shopper can easily see. BTW Where I compare with our product, that is only because it is the one with which I am most familiar and because we sell as a high-end line.

Jets 67 said the sign, didn't count 'em, lots of little 1" spinners but a couple of larger jets. 91" x 91", seating for 6. Two pumps plus circ per sign, but couldn't see 'em because displayed on side with equipment bay on top.

Here's the inside. Simple controls, with aux control on opposite side, nice feature. Looks not too bad, partly contoured seating with a variety of jet patterns that should give different therapy effects. Foot dome with what I guess is a volcano jet. Pillows look comfortable, feel okay. Obviously I can't sit on the seats to check.

Shell is 1/8" acrylic and 1/8" fiberglass (about half the thickness of an Arctic/Coyote shell). Handy gap between wall and cabinet lip that I was able to look into and stick my hand into, 2x2 bracing under lip, no foam or insulation under lip at all. Fit and finish didn't impress me but I actually thought overall appearance was okay - it's a decent looking spa, especially if you don't look too closely.

Cabinet is grey plastic, maybe 1/4" thick (estimated by feeling it with my fingertips), looks like Eon or something similar, maybe recycled plastic. Cabinet flexible but not flimsy, and I could feel what I assumed was interior bracing as places where the cabinet didn't flex. Compares favorably with our Coyote vertical vinyl cabinet overlay (it sits against 2" of foam) but not with the Arctic cabinet of 3/8" clear cedar or our zero-maintenance cabinet of 3/8" Eon.

Cabinet is bonded to what appears to be 1/8" heavy foam with a plastic backer about as thick as the cardboard used for cereal boxes. Glued to that is 1/4" bubble wrap, the kind used for packing. Probably faced with reflective layer but couldn't tell. Gap between cabinet and bottom allowed me to examine the insulation and also grope inside (couldn't feel anything more, looks like the insulation I could see is what there is, correct me if this is wrong). Sorry, discovered that my camera won't focus that closely to show the insulation. Anyway IMO this is adequate insulation for the local summer, but certainly not for a Canadian winter or even a cool spring or fall. Compare to any brand with full foam or to Coyote 2" sprayed polyurethane foam, Arctic's 3" sprayed foam.

Bottom seemed to be ABS, pretty durable, about the same as the plastic sleds Canadian kids slide on, and they (the sleds) usually hold up for a season or two. Though I don't think it's as tough or as pretty as Arctic's pressure moulded fiberglass, it didn't look too bad. I estimate 1/8" thick on sides and thinner in the center. Neat bottom, with intrusions under the seats for support. Bottom was not foamed and did not appear to be attached except at perimeter, as I could flex it as far as I could reach, which was how I could tell it was thinner under the spa than at the edges (also by the sound of thumping it). Seemed to be some kind of wood frame under the plastic.

Jets seemed normal, easy to turn and remove, looked fine. Couldn't tell the brand. Spinning jets had ball bearings, the kind that I used to find in the bottom of my first hot tub.

Cover seemed to be quite thick, as shown in the image where I have my hand against the center fold of the cover.

Equipment pack was on top so couldn't look inside. Will stop again, talk to sales staff, see if I can arrange wet test. Yeah, right.

Conclusions: At a quick glance, it seems to offer a lot of jets and features for the price. However, IMO it's clearly an economy spa. It's lightly insulated. Fit and finish didn't impress me. It looks okay if you don't look closely. I wondered if there was a good reason why it was equipment-end-up. I couldn't dry test it, let alone wet test.

No one who has shopped around a bit would confuse this with a high-end spa.

[Spamaster101]

Looks like a POS to me.

[soakerman]

That spa is overpriced by far for what you get it appears. The Costco Legend is a much better spa at 5k then the Omni that is at 7k!

The spa series you list is not in the same category as the Elite spa. it is like the Coyote level of spa as you say.

The Sterling Leisure line is what you need to compare apples to apples but I think you know that

What does a Arvtic Coyote sell for Vs. the Elite Spa for $3999.00 or the Legend at $4999.00 Vs. a Tundra?

Good pics though. to bad it is the wrong spa!

Tom, you are a smart guy so get the model and specs right before you compare to your Arctic please.

Let's keep it real

[Trigger]

Tom for you to suggest that Hydro and the spas they sell at costco are anything less than the best friggin ot tub ever built is so wrong.

Just ask Jwillard.

Jwillard will tell you.

[Roger]

Very consiese analysis Tom. Gives the general public a good idea of the differences that are not clear to alot of shoppers. When or if you do get to look at the equipment you will also find several differences in the lower inexpensive tubs and the higher more expensive tubs. And then we can add the value of dealer backing to the equation. But it will take several more years to add the value of longevity.

But if we keep debating it as we have we will still be seeing Costco threads 5-6 years from now. Still hot for now. I have a feeling a few years from now or even just a few months it will just be different owners as the ones here now are less than a year or a year or 2 max and most don't hang around for 5-6 years like some of us.

[Tom]

That spa is overpriced by far for what you get it appears. The Costco Legend is a much better spa at 5k then the Omni that is at 7k!

Could be. But $5K USD is about $6600 CAD and we're finding many of our prices inflated, so the prices are pretty close.

The spa series you list is not in the same category as the Elite spa.....

You really do like to beat that Costco drum, don't you? Please read my post. The original thread asked for specific differences between PE2 tubs and those going for a higher price but since I don't have a Costco nearby, I offered an alternative.

However, why not take some photos of your Elite to show the specifics of what you contend? Provide the measurements and facts that clearly show what you mean.

[Spamaster101]

That is $6999 Canadian dollars not real money.

[Trigger]

That is $6999 Canadian dollars not real money.

$6999.00 Canadian is $ 6,547.20 USD.

Pretty real in my book.

Is that a "Real" spa with "Real" Support is the question. After all, that's real money your'e spending.

And in case anyone missed it, the yellow tag in the first pic claims a 25 year warrenty on the structure. Man, thats so awsome to know this awesome spa will be around in 2032 and can be handed down to my children. It's an awesome familly heirloom.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Tom; I would like to see you go to the Jacuzzi store, the Sundance store, and the Hot Spring store then of course the D1 store and tell us how thick the shells are on those things. Take your camera. The last photos from the sundance factory I saw many pieces of PVC pipe placed in the foot well and all over the seats and such to keep it from falling down with water (it is an old trick to cut costs). Jacuzzi uses a ridiculous pyramidal shaped plastic bottom to hold up the shell. All that does in interfere with plumbing in a straight line. Compared to the "big boy" spa companies the Hydro is just as good, but for a lot less money. That is my point.

It is not an Arctic. I talked with Jim K and he is definitely on the same path as I am on shell strength.

By the way, I have seen spas with less fiberglass than that, over 20 years old and still look decent. There was a company in Colorado called FPI that made spas with fiberglass and acrylic back in the early to mid 80's (hand laid cloth). In some places the shell was one layer thick (1/16 inch of fiberglass) towards the top. If the shell is supported correctly on concrete, and the framework is adequate (which I don't think it is on Hydro or any of those "big boys") that spa will last longer than the current Sundance, Jacuzzi, Hot Spring, and D1 shells, but I know it will not last as long as the Arctic, unless they put seat supports under it and add stiffening to the more stressed parts.

The other part is that often times the fiberglass chopper gun operators are not going to put as much on the edge of the shell, where it is not needed, unless it is needed for the salesman on the floor to show thickness. We use the cutouts from the hole saw at different heights to show the thickness of our shells to customers. The strength needs to be in the foot well, and seat area and as it goes up less is needed. Something about the laws of physics.

While you are there evaluate the plastic "stuff" on the Hot Spring and Jacuzzi. Grab the handles and tell me how solid they feel to you? Look at the

cheap junk plastic control boxes on Hot Spring and how "quality" that looks? On my site I wrote an article on control boxes and show a couple of photos and give some examples of fires started by hot tubs with plastic boxes.

http://www.soundclick.com/havenhead

[Chris H]

Before you waste your time going to the Hotspring store, Hotspring will have the thinnest shell. I am sure someone on here will tell you why it is thin and why it actually works. I don't know enough about it to explain.

[Roger]

Before you waist your time going to the Hotspring store, Hotspring will have the thinnest shell. I am sure someone on here will tell you why it is thin and why it actually works. I don't know enough about it to explain.

They use a completly different design. The foam supports the shell. It works awesome as there track record for longevity shows. I have removed 25 YO HS tubs that the shell was fine in. I did one the other day that was 14 YO and still looked as good as the day it was purchased.

Just because one person thinks fiberglass backed acrylic is the best way to go does not make it so. There are several exceptable ways to make a shell. But skimping in any manufacturing method makes a bad shell, no matter what the design or material used to manufacture.

[Spamaster101]

They use a completly different design. The foam supports the shell. It works awesome as there track record for longevity shows. I have removed 25 YO HS tubs that the shell was fine in. I did one the other day that was 14 YO and still looked as good as the day it was purchased.

I guess you have not seen to many older HS, I have nothing against HS and they made great strides in their shells but they had a huge cracking problem through the 80's & 90's. Anyone that has worked on HS for a few years have fixed cracks around fittings and on the steps. If you ever get a chance to see their bone-yard at their plant it would make your mouth drop.

This is not a Hot Spring bash but the comment they have had awesome shells for the last 25 years is completely false.

[JohnInSJ]

well... the 80s could be up to 27 years ago. So it's at least plausible, as they say on mythbusters...

[flibotte]

"Since when is it a "waist" of time to go look at the competition."

LOL, Jim_The_Jim correcting someones spelling.

People who live in glass houses.......

"There is nothing new in what I am saying."

You can say that again Jim!

[cokenbeer]

[removed by moderator]

[Spamaster101]

[edited by moderator]

[Chris H]

This is me venting so I don’t know where this post really belongs or who I am responding to but I felt like venting.

Sorry I used the wrong “waist” in a sentence. I changed it. I make mistakes. Sometimes that $100,000 education doesn’t work.

Actually, many larger manufacturers are taking notes from Hotspring’s leadership position. I count 3 new manufacturers producing spas for the mass merchants in the last year. Take a look at Costco’s website, you will see spas manufactured by Jacuzzi, Cal, Hotspring, and Softub. This is not the end of the world, but a way for the manufacturers to gain market share and sell in a market that has very little effect on the dealers. Selling spas in markets that were previously untapped makes the parent companies much stronger. It also gives these manufacturers economic advantages as well.

Think about it this way; let’s assume Hotspring sells 1000 spas from Costco. I think that is a conservative number and I don’t think they are selling that many. That is an average of 1 spa for each of their dealers. Are the dealers really going out of business because that one person did not purchase that one spa from them? Seriously, lets be real here.

As we all know most large purchases are not made over the internet because most people don’t want to purchase something and not see it, feel it, or touch it. It is one thing if the purchase is $50 bucks, but not $5,000. That is a fact and it is not changing anytime soon. Dealers are here to stay if you like it or not.

[Tom]

Tom; I would like to see you go to the Jacuzzi store, the Sundance store, and the Hot Spring store then of course the D1 store and tell us how thick the shells are on those things. Take your camera.

Sounds like fun, and I know it would improve my knowledge of the industry, but no time.

We use the cutouts from the hole saw at different heights to show the thickness of our shells to customers.

We do that too, as part of our quality checks. Probably all manufacturers do, I wouldn't know.

[Trigger]

Tom; I would like to see you go to the Jacuzzi store, the Sundance store, and the Hot Spring store then of course the D1 store and tell us how thick the shells are on those things. Take your camera.

Sounds like fun, but no time.

We use the cutouts from the hole saw at different heights to show the thickness of our shells to customers.

W

We do that too, as part of our quality checks. Probably all manufacturers do, I wouldn't know.

Comerade Jim, why don't you go the stores and take pics? Start with Master.

[Tom]

The foam supports the shell.

In case it wasn't clear from my description, the Omni shell appeared to be supported, under the seats, by intrusions moulded in the base. As Roger points out, this permits a thinner shell to be used.

Given the cost of FRP, does this not also represents a cost saving to the manufacturer?

[Tom]

Take a look at Costco’s website, you will see spas manufactured by Jacuzzi, Cal, Hotspring, and Softub.

The lineup is different for Costco Canada, which carries Aruba, Infinity and Pilates brands. A Canadian company ( Ridgewood Ent.) is making their Aruba line exclusively for Costco Canada, so there are no dealers to contend with.

[Richs100]

Is that Che Gruvner?

I saw the movie about the hot tub trips through South America in his youth.

"Hot Tub Motor, Filtration-Cycle Diaries".

Good flick.

[Jim_The_Jim]

They use a completly different design. The foam supports the shell. It works awesome as there track record for longevity shows. I have removed 25 YO HS tubs that the shell was fine in. I did one the other day that was 14 YO and still looked as good as the day it was purchased.

I guess you have not seen to many older HS, I have nothing against HS and they made great strides in their shells but they had a huge cracking problem through the 80's & 90's. Anyone that has worked on HS for a few years have fixed cracks around fittings and on the steps. If you ever get a chance to see their bone-yard at their plant it would make your mouth drop.

This is not a Hot Spring bash but the comment they have had awesome shells for the last 25 years is completely false.

For many years they made crap, and today it is worse.

http://www.soundclick.com/havenhead

[Dusty]

One thing I noticed as you plugged "your" spa was that there is no mention of price difference. People in here seem very worried about how much insulation a particular hot tub contains as if that is some measure of quality. Insulation is the least expensive component and easiest issue to remedy. So, why would I want to pay 4 to 6K more for a hot tub that has another inch of insulation? Is it just the implied quality that more insulation gives?

I've never posted here before and I don't usually post unless compelled to. I noticed there is a serious anti-Costco movement and a "buy from a dealer or you will be sorry" factor here so I thought I'd shed some thoughts on the matter. A few people have touched on the fact that dealers of any consumer item better get used to competition like you have never seen before. We have all seen this in many industries. Amazon revenues have reached $10B. Any market in which the retail price versus the cost to produce (margin) is significantly disparate is a target for an e-commerce solution. Dealers should be afraid. It's a fight or flight scenario that is irreversible. Consumers are learning that e-commerce is relatively safe, if dealing with organizations that have a reputation to protect. I have had more issues with my bank compromising my credit card numbers than I have had on-line and I purchase a lot on line (reputable orgs only). These oganizations (Amazon, Costco, Home Depot, etc.) have enormous leverage over their suppliers. Contracts given to suppliers offer potentially huge volumes and massive increases in revenues. At the same time, the Costco's of the world beat the heck out of a supplier on price, customer satisfaction, quality, and return policy. This is why there are almost no questions asked upon return of goods to the store. The supplier is under full liability to take back any item in any condition returned from the customer. Now a spa might be harder to get to the store, but I would fully engage Costco's e-commerce division to get problems solved for me before I'd lug my 1000 lbs. spa back to the store.

The arguments for buying from a dealer generally come back to support and better quality merchandise. Better quality is questionable for many of the reasons stated above, but even more questionable is the value of service. I understand cost models of businesses and when you walk into a spa showroom with all the pretty lights, air conditioning, and general atmosphere of wonderfulness, remember - you are going to pay for that too. These are not lean organizations with streamlined operational supply chain and logistics processes and you will pay for every inefficiency, not to mention profit margins have to be much higher due to a lack of market reach.

Some of you may fully grasp what I am telling you and others won't but the bottom line is that, just like any other business, this one will have to reinvent itself due to the impact of the internet - welcome to the club, and good luck with that!

Btw, I bought one of those Pilates H2Os from Costco. $7K, had it about 1 month - loving it so far. I had another spa that lasted 20 years and was time for a new one. I looked a several spas and read everything I could on the one I bought and I am convinced that from a pure value standpoint I made the right choice, hands down. The entire electronics package is produced by AeWare - nice quality stuff. I will take some pictures and post them, it really is a nice machine. I saw a lot of nice spas in the dealers here in the Bay Area, as well. Based on my observations this spa would have sold for between 10 and 14K in the dealers. I never once saw a spa that had as many features.

Dusty

[jwillard]

Well said!!!!...let the flame war begin