Flamers On This Site.

[Brent Hamm]

I never realized it tell i started a thread here recently, but there are people that do not want to post here because of all the attacks that go on.

I have had 5 private emails about my tub, all helpful, from people that have various reseaons for not wanting to post public...but mostly boils down to being attacked by the jerks that want to attack every post about certain spas.

Why do you guys do that? I mean, i am happy with my spa, and i hope everyone else is just as happy, with what ever spa they bought. If i can help someone with the same spa as me, or even a different spa, i would love to.

But i would never start crapping in some other thread, i mean, what is the point? What do you get out of that? Guess it makes you feel tough? I dunno.

Get a fricken life.

[D.P. Roberts]

Thanks for your post. Very constructive, and I'm sure it will help keep things civil around here.

Seriously. What, exactly, do you think that post will accomplish?

On one hand, you point out that many people are afraid to post here because they fear they will be "attacked". This is a valid criticism. There are too many attacks on this board. If people behaved in a more civil manner, more people would be willing to post, and this forum would benefit from a variety of different opinions.

Then, you call ALL THE POSTERS ON THIS FORUM "idiots" and "jerks" who "crap in some other thread" and need to "get a fricken life".

So, if someone who attacks other people is an "idiot", why did you turn around and attack those same people? What does that make you?

[tsand]

I never realized it tell i started a thread here recently, but there are people that do not want to post here because of all the attacks that go on.

I have had 5 private emails about my tub, all helpful, from people that have various reasons for not wanting to post public...but mostly boils down to being attacked by the jerks that want to attack every post about certain spas.

Why do you guys do that? I mean, i am happy with my spa, and i hope everyone else is just as happy, with what ever spa they bought. If i can help someone with the same spa as me, or even a different spa, i would love to.

But i would never start crapping in some other thread, i mean, what is the point? What do you get out of that? Guess it makes you feel tough? I dunno.

Get a fricken life.

Brent,

Sorry this has been a bad experience for you.

I am a newbie to spas and thought I would use this site and other sites to help me make up my mind between spending big bucks for a dealer provided spa or try to find an "apples to apples" less expensive alternative from either Costco, Sams club, HomeDepot or the internet.

Knowledge is king, or in most things these days, Knowledge is cash

IMHO, generally you can make major purchases in two ways.

First: Call in a pro and spend big bucks. For many people that is a good thing. Many people have the money to pay for peace of mind that a pro is going to give. It is a no effort, no worry solution to what you want.

Second: Use the Internet to research, research and research and safe tons of cash by doing it yourself.

There are risk for both methods but the risks are different.

Risk for the Pros: Someone has to pay a pro big bucks to get their experience and knowledge. The risk, if you call in a pro, they could be crook or have a bad product. Or they can just be charging for experience and knowledge you can aquire yourself so that you don't need to pay them for "it".

When I was planning for a new deck I got quotes for $30,000 to $40,000 and up. I ended up doing it with carpenter friend for about $10,000 and everyone raves about how great it looks. The risk here was we could have screwed it up so bad we have to do it twice (which thankfully we didn't). And my friend made some major money working after hours from his primary job. A win win for all.

I see the purchase of the spa in a similar fashion. We priced the size and features of the Costco (infinity) Sun Peak at a couple of local Spa dealers and they wanted $10,000 minumum. Costco wanted $3000.

Risk for Costco: I get an inferior product that will not let me use the spa causing me to return it, big hassles, work, time, frustration if it goes wrong. If I pay an expert $300 to install the spa. Now I have $6700 in the bank. I use it for a year, and the tub is a lemon, I pay someone another $300 to uninstall and costco will give me my $3000 back. It might be a $600 loss. Or, I might just rent a piano dolly call some friends and install the thing myself so little cost (or risk) to me.

If you are not a DIYer, then see a dealer and enjoy the peace of mind that money can buy. If you don't mind the risk and effort to save some serious cash, then give it whirl

As far as the bullies and smart a**es on this site, their rude behavior and caustic remarks only tell us that they either have an agenda (spa dealer afraid of a change in their marketplace) or they are just jerks with nothing else to do.

I like everyone's opinion when it is expressed in good faith and not given at my expense. If someone can show me why I might take a different track without a hidden (or otherwise) agenda or rude remarks, then that is why I am reading these posts in first place.

Brent, I am glad you enjoy your spa. I can learn from you so don't stop posting your experiences. I may not do what you did, but I am going to learn and that's what the bullies don't want (I guess).

PS I still don't have a spa, Costco sold out or ran out of the Sun Peak. Back to the drawing board.

Thanks

Tsand

[Brent Hamm]

I am just fed up that is all. Yeah..maybe i was out of line posting this thread.....

I think it got the advice i need anyway, so, maybe its time for me to leave this site again until i have something to ask.

[Flyonthewall]

it cracks me up how people can think 2 identical products can be sold for $3000 or >$10000. do you think costco and their supplier get you that spa at no profit to themselves? i'll bet when all is said and done the difference in profit margin over manufacturing cost is closer than you think between big box and independant dealers. so what do you think the $3000 spa costs to make? (this isn't meant as an attack or affront to any persons, real or fictional)

[Shaamus]

I wasn't surprised to see the comment of the $3000 spa equalling the $10000 spa. People think that the spa industry is like the garmet industry. Buy 100,000 shirts for under a buck a piece from China and sell them over here on a 50% sale for $39.99. They don't realize how really small the spa industry is. There are only a handful of manufacturers that can truly tap into economies of scale and those companies are dumping money into big advertising budgets to keep the numbers up. If people knew how little the margin was on spas these days, they would be honestly surprised.

[biggz]

I am just fed up that is all. Yeah..maybe i was out of line posting this thread.....

I think it got the advice i need anyway, so, maybe its time for me to leave this site again until i have something to ask.

Brent Hamm, I happen to agree with you. I won't go so far to call anyone idiot or jerk though. I also came to this site for information on a spa that I purchased from Walmart, and I've had to defend my purchase every time I bring it up. It's always the same people with the same remarks. They seldom have anything to say worthwhile. Some try to give the impression that they are some great expert and what they say is the definitive answer. Most of the time it's just nonsense. You never read anything bad from these so called experts about Hotspring, D1, Nordic, etc.. They'll try to convince you that if you buy from a big box you're going to have nothing but problems. But when I read the different post on this site you'll see several post from people having problems with the so called "High End" spas. The fact is all tubs will have problems. Some will argue that the big box tub will only last 3-5 years but the "High End" tubs will last 10 - 15 years. Too me that's probably the biggest horse dung excuse for buying a "High End" tub imaginable. What they fail to tell us neophytes is some of those "High End" tubs can only use proprietary parts. The Cheaper tubs can use generic parts, so if your cheap tub breaks down you can probably get them fixed with quality parts that won't cost an arm or a leg. So much for the lame excuse for lasting only 3 - 5 years. If it breaks you fix it and keep on tubbin. They'll talk about all of the great support you'll get from the dealer. I would hope so. If I'm dropping up wards of $6K for anything you had better take my call when I have a problem. But what happens if the dealer goes out of business? I don't think the big box stores will be going anywhere in the near future. I can't say the same about the dealer. They'll talk about the finish is better on the "Hgh End" tubs. I say, it better be for the amounts of money they want.

This site is great and despite all that I said above, I will continue to use it for what it's worth. If you and others like us leave, this site will not have balance, and those mentioned above will win. If we own a tub that's constantly flamed but we know that our experience with the product is different, speak up and let your comments be heard. I bought my tub after doing a lot of research and reading post by Mader and Flibotte. They own my tub as well and have expressed much joy. It's not the best, but I don't need the best and I'm still holding $4K.

If you want to see who I'm talking about just wait and see who trys to flame this post. They can't help themselves.

[D.P. Roberts]

Personally, I like reading someone's posts about a particular brand being a "piece of junk" - as long as it's backed up with facts. For example, we get a lot of repair people on this forum stating how many leaks they're repairing in a particular brand, or they can't get support from the manufacturer from another brand. The more we get posts like that, the more information consumers have to make buying decisions.

In my opinion, the main reason for forums like these is for gathering facts & gaining knowledge. Brent, I think you're right - to an extent- that many dealers (or manufacturer's representatives) on this board rip on other brands without merit. Others, however, give valuable reasoning behind their posts, and I think it's unfair to lump them all together. I've noticed that most of the people who clearly identify themselves as representatives of a certain brand or company tend to avoid the inflammatory statements that get you & others so riled up, whereas others who "hide" their identities tend to take the cheap shots. I think identifying yourself & your affiliation should be mandatory on this board.

On the other hand, I'm not terribly impressed with how the "Costco brands" do business either. Take, for example, the Platinum Hot Tub that you and others have had good experiences with. Platinum is manufactured by Hydro Spas, which just went bankrupt. I have not seen anything on the Platinum site that explains they're bankrupt, or even that they're affiliated with Hydro Spas. One could say the same for "Discovery" spas, "Freedom" spas, or many of the other Costco/Internet brands out there. It seems like most of those brands are manufactured by one of three big companies: Keys Backyard, Hydro Spas, or Gulf Coast (Tatum Manufacturing). If they would just come out and say who made their tubs, it would clear up a lot of confusion.

[Spa-Zoro!]

To the cracks me up, and facts requesters, help me out please.

Costco's business model, according to Wiki, is to mark up a product no more then 15%, and relies on bulk sales and membership sales (which is pure profit) to run the business. Lets say they sell a spa for $4000, that means they are buying it for $3500ish. We have to assume that the manufacturer is making at least a little money on each unit, so lets just for the sake of arguement say $500 per unit, leaving a mfg cost of $3000.

Just how much does everyong think it costs to build a $10000 spa from the base spa above? Lets take that $3000 above, and beef up the electrical system (extra $100), stereo (extra $50), insulation (extra $75), "better" motors, blowers, heaters, etc (extra $200) - keep in mind, these "premium manufacturers" are buying in some serious bulk at the tune of 30k spas per year or more. So what do we have, an inflated mfg cost of $3420 with the super-duper version the top of the liners are using... Now lets say they get a little more then the "big-box" $500 per spa, Lets say they get $2000 per spa, bringing the cost to a dealer up to $5500ish. Thats still a very long stretch from $10k imho, but its not a bad thing either as noted below.

Quick note, 30,000 spas built x $5500 per unit = $165 MILLION dollars in sales, how many manufacturers are reporting these kinds of numbers? Nobody is thinking of this arguement in any rational sense. Costco isnt evil, its just not keeping its doors open selling or supporting spas. Lets say a dealer does make $5000 per spa, if they sell two per week thats still only $500k per year to pay overhead, employees, warranty, etc. There are families to feed, but that doesnt mean your getting 3x the spa, at least not in my book.

You have the two schools, if your mechanically inclined, or can follow what technical support is telling you (or you have some wrestlers as friends for a spa return), I really dont see how you can lose going to a Costco like store. If your not mechanically inclined, want to support local business, dont want the hassles, then a dealer is the way to go. Both have advantages and disadvantages, but this board gets way to caught up in the stupid ford vs. chevy arguement sometimes.

From a numbers point of view, a spa is a spa is a spa. It heats the water. If it has the seating, size, jet lay out, and warranty you can be happy with, all with a price you can afford, then sit and enjoy! A spa sale is a spa sale, and helps the industry as a whole.

[D.P. Roberts]

1. The fact is all tubs will have problems. Some will argue that the big box tub will only last 3-5 years but the "High End" tubs will last 10 - 15 years. Too me that's probably the biggest horse dung excuse for buying a "High End" tub imaginable.

2. What they fail to tell us neophytes is some of those "High End" tubs can only use proprietary parts. The Cheaper tubs can use generic parts, so if your cheap tub breaks down you can probably get them fixed with quality parts that won't cost an arm or a leg. So much for the lame excuse for lasting only 3 - 5 years. If it breaks you fix it and keep on tubbin.

3. They'll talk about all of the great support you'll get from the dealer. I would hope so. If I'm dropping up wards of $6K for anything you had better take my call when I have a problem. But what happens if the dealer goes out of business. I don't think the big box stores will be going anywhere in the near future. I can't say the same about the dealer.

4. If you want to see who I'm talking about just wait and see who trys to flame this post. They can't help themselves.

Okay, I'll bite. I numbered your ideas in this thread so that I can respond to them in order.

1. You claim, as others have, that dealers bash other brands without support. Yet you state that their longevity claims are "horse dung". Where's your proof for this? How is this any different than flaming the dealers are doing?

2. Expensive, proprietary parts? Again, I ask you for proof. You've shown none.

3. Dealer support- yes, dealer support is important, and it's undoubtedly more difficult to get support if your dealer goes out of business. But remember that it's the MANUFACTURER who offers the warranty, not the dealer. The "big box" stores may not be going anywhere, but the manufacturers who sell their tubs are certainly disappearing. Which is worse - buying a name brand tub from a dealer who goes out of business, or buying a Costco tub whose manufacturer goes out of business?

4. "Flames". Your entire thread is devoted to the idea that buying a tub from a big box store is a better value than buying a national brand, yet you give not ONE SHRED OF PROOF for any of it. All you've done is call dealers "flamers" who offer "horse dung". How is this ANY DIFFERENT than what the dealers have said about Costco tubs?

[TinyBubbles]

Brent, you probably feel beat up and frustrated, but come on. That was a real "do as I say, not as I do" post. If you don't like the mud slingers, don't become one. There are fair and honest people on this site. I understand how you feel. I feel insulted when someone implies that I was wrong to buy from a dealer. Therefore, I try not to make anyone feel that way from one of my posts. So, shake it off and try to stay above the fray. Remember, for every negative comment, there might be someone getting helpful information from one of your posts.

[powernoodle]

Ok, I just had a leg operation this past weekend and maybe its the meds talking....

Thats Koo-Koo talk Spa-Zoro.

$100 electrical, $50 stereo and $75 insulation.

According to your math the difference in warranty cost is maybe $10-15 bucks. Im thinking some of the big box stores give 6 MONTHS parts and the "top of the liners" have 3-5 YEARS.

[biggz]

1. The fact is all tubs will have problems. Some will argue that the big box tub will only last 3-5 years but the "High End" tubs will last 10 - 15 years. Too me that's probably the biggest horse dung excuse for buying a "High End" tub imaginable.

2. What they fail to tell us neophytes is some of those "High End" tubs can only use proprietary parts. The Cheaper tubs can use generic parts, so if your cheap tub breaks down you can probably get them fixed with quality parts that won't cost an arm or a leg. So much for the lame excuse for lasting only 3 - 5 years. If it breaks you fix it and keep on tubbin.

3. They'll talk about all of the great support you'll get from the dealer. I would hope so. If I'm dropping up wards of $6K for anything you had better take my call when I have a problem. But what happens if the dealer goes out of business. I don't think the big box stores will be going anywhere in the near future. I can't say the same about the dealer.

4. If you want to see who I'm talking about just wait and see who trys to flame this post. They can't help themselves.

Okay, I'll bite. I numbered your ideas in this thread so that I can respond to them in order.

1. You claim, as others have, that dealers bash other brands without support. Yet you state that their longevity claims are "horse dung". Where's your proof for this? How is this any different than flaming the dealers are doing?

2. Expensive, proprietary parts? Again, I ask you for proof. You've shown none.

3. Dealer support- yes, dealer support is important, and it's undoubtedly more difficult to get support if your dealer goes out of business. But remember that it's the MANUFACTURER who offers the warranty, not the dealer. The "big box" stores may not be going anywhere, but the manufacturers who sell their tubs are certainly disappearing. Which is worse - buying a name brand tub from a dealer who goes out of business, or buying a Costco tub whose manufacturer goes out of business?

4. "Flames". Your entire thread is devoted to the idea that buying a tub from a big box store is a better value than buying a national brand, yet you give not ONE SHRED OF PROOF for any of it. All you've done is call dealers "flamers" who offer "horse dung". How is this ANY DIFFERENT than what the dealers have said about Costco tubs?

'D.P. Roberts' I'm surprised that you would attempt to rebuke my opinion, considering that your post IMO have been some of the more honest this site has to offer. But you bit so, first I never at any time mentioned dealers with regards to the bashing that goes on at this site. You did. I take offense when someone tries to change my words to make a point.

In terms of my statement that some manufacturers use proprietary parts, you have not shown a shred of evidence that my statement is incorrect. If you don't agree show me that I'm wrong.

You said the manufacturer offers the warranty not the dealer, so why do some use the warranty as an argument to buy from the dealer. Do the big box stores not sell tubs from the manufacturers that also offer warranties? They do but that's never the argument. Oh I know their warranties are no good right.

I again never called dealers flamers. You did. The argument that some will say big box tubs only last 3-5 years vs "High End" tubs lasting 10-15 years can be backed up on another thread that's currently posted called "Inherited Discovery Spa". That fellow is working on a tub that was purchased in 1996. 11 years ago. That's the same brand tub that Costco sells today that some will claim won't last more than 3-5 years. I say that argument is bupkus (horse dung, aka silly excuse).

You see DP, what the original poster wrote regarding the mud slinging that goes on is true if only by your response to this post. I won't hold it against you though. I still respect your opinion more then others. Your trying to make me seem like a bad guy for just writing the truth, but please don't misconstrue my words. I chose them very carefully.

[Spa-Zoro!]

Im not saying a spa pack costs a manufacturer $100, im saying lets add another $100 to what the mass-merchant base spa already covers to add "quality", because I am assuming that the Costco spas do use a spa pack, heater, motor, etc. Looking at some recent spas at Costco, lets look at Hydro Spa. The spa had a 2 year parts and labor, 10 year surface, same as the Sterling Leisure line that they build, thats fairly respectable (and before the "but they are out of business" stuff starts, they arent they are chapter 11 AND that isnt what this post is about). Is it really reasonable to assume that their spas that listed for $8000-9000, but sold at a dealer, had a whole different crew of oompa-loompa's that hit the manufacturing floor and drew from a different stock of parts? Are are we again arguing business philosophies instead of which spa is best bang for the buck? Regardless, lets say the figures to build in some "quality" were double, even triple what I put down loosely on paper, do you really think they are making a full $2k per spa? Its going to balance out either way.

You cant knock a business by volume model when its done correctly (IE Costco or the Walmartian juggernaut), just like you cant avoid the benefits (and costs that come with them) when purchasing from a dealer. You just cant knock a dealer based model when done correctly either. Both are sound, and depend 100% on your situation. Im not saying Hydro Spa didnt have their quality issues, and that may be what sets them apart from other "high enders", but that rarely gets argued. The discussion almost always devolves into your an idiot if you buy a spa at X price, here is what your not getting by not shopping local, blah blah blah.

You can build a quality spa for a mass merchant, if the quality is there, the warranty doesnt matter really does it? You really think Jacuzzi and Hot Springs are sacrificing their name at these big box stores by shaving quality or putting in shoddy equipment in their mass-merchant accounts or are they making a business decision for the future of the company? Lets say they move 100 spas through a dealer, but can move 10000 through a WalMart, thats a whole lot of customers that are going to be out of warranty in a short period of time (what 1-2 years?) and lets face it thats where the real money is in the spa industry. The aftermarket, afterwarranty, and chem/accessory sales and service. As stated somewhere else here today, there is no point in doing business to break even. We are all fooling ourselves if we think our manufacturer of choice isnt in this game to make money (regardless of their philosophies and business methods), so why argue about it constantly?

I can honestly say if I were shopping, and could identify half the people on this board I would go out of my way to NOT buy from them, so how is the constant attitude good for business? How many sales are you really netting by bullying over the internet? How do you know I even have a Sams, Costco, or hot tub dealer even in my town before you ALL spout off? To a degree I am very limited by where I live no?

[Pathfinder]

To Brent by starting this thread calling people idiots, it makes you no better than those you say are bad for the forum.

There's an old saying "if you dont like it you can leave" nobody ask you to join the forum for your advice. Internet forums are a way for people to express their ideas and opinions its basically only the strong survive. If these "people" are so bad they would have been banned from the forum. Once again if you dont like whats goin on start your own forum and be like Jim and have some court jester named greg and tell you everything you say is great.

[D.P. Roberts]

1. 'D.P. Roberts' I'm surprised that you would attempt to rebuke my opinion, considering that your post IMO have been some of the more honest this site has to offer. But you bit so, first I never at any time mentioned dealers with regards to the bashing that goes on at this site. You did. I take offense when someone tries to change my words to make a point.

2. In terms of my statement that some manufacturers use proprietary parts, you have not shown a shred of evidence that my statement is incorrect. If you don't agree show me that I'm wrong.

3. You said the manufacturer offers the warranty not the dealer, so why do some use the warranty as an argument to buy from the dealer. Do the big box stores not sell tubs from the manufacturers that also offer warranties? They do but that's never the argument. Oh I know their warranties are no good right.

4. I again never called dealers flamers. You did. The argument that some will say big box tubs only last 3-5 years vs "High End" tubs lasting 10-15 years can be backed up on another thread that's currently posted called "Inherited Discovery Spa". That fellow is working on a tub that was purchased in 1996. 11 years ago. That's the same brand tub that Costco sells today that some will claim won't last more than 3-5 years. I say that argument is bupkus (horse dung, aka silly excuse).

5. You see DP, what the original poster wrote regarding the mud slinging that goes on is true if only by your response to this post. I won't hold it against you though. I still respect your opinion more then others. Your trying to make me seem like a bad guy for just writing the truth, but please don't misconstrue my words. I chose them very carefully.

1. Thank you for the kind words. I know you didn't mention "dealers" specifically, I assume you were talking about the dealers who have bashed Costco - and we all know what happens when you assume. I think many (most?) of the people who tend to bash Costco tubs are dealers, though.

2. You're right - I have absolutely no hard evidence (i.e. quantitative data) that "name brand" tubs outlast "big box" tubs. On the other hand, there's no evidence that the big box tubs last as long (or longer) than the name brand tubs.

So, there's no real evidence we can use to say that one is definitively better than the other. On the other hand, there's lots of qualitative data on the subject. I do believe that if you read these forums long enough you get an idea of who is making stuff up, and who is telling the truth. I think you can then use that data to get a good idea as to which tubs will generally last longer. Because of the nature of this data, I really don't see how anyone on either side can claim a "smoking gun" of proof on the subject.

3. As for warranties - at least for the tubs I've looked at, the name brands tend to have longer warranties than the big box stores. Secondly, you can't ignore the fact that the manufacturers of the name brands have been around longer. This is my OPINION, but I would not trust a company to stand behind their warranty until they've been in business for at least as long as the warranty will be in effect. Costco also has their great return policyt - I also said "Which is worse - buying a name brand tub from a dealer who goes out of business, or buying a Costco tub whose manufacturer goes out of business?" I don't think that's a rhetorical question - everyone who is shopping for a tub needs to answer that question for themselves.

4. You're right, I assumed that you were referring dealers when you mentioned "flamers". And I'm sure there are many tubs from big box stores that are still going strong after 5, 10, or 15 years. The real question is how long most tubs last - if you bought a tub from a big box store, how long is it likely to last? Again, there's no quantitative data on that, but I think the qualitative data will give a good summary.

5. I apologize again for misconstruing your words. You chose your words carefully, something that many posters do not do. I think if we all chose our words more carefully there would be fewer flame wars on this board.

[Roger]

1. Thank you for the kind words. I know you didn't mention "dealers" specifically, I assume you were talking about the dealers who have bashed Costco - and we all know what happens when you assume. I think many (most?) of the people who tend to bash Costco tubs are dealers, though.

What amazes me is that all of us "regulars" are being discribed as bashers and flamers for our opinion on Big Box tubs because it is different from the new buyers of said tubs.

If you go back and read you will see that it started because of the comparision to a 10,000 dollar tub as being equal to the Big Box tub. Not a 7-8 thousand dollar tub but a 10,000 dollar tub. Dealers defending that comparision are right. And as everyone knows here in my opinion they are not the same and I work on more low end tubs than high end tubs. This alone should tell you something.

Go ahead, call me a flamer and a basher, defending our opinion as proffesionals should not be in issue. As newbies to the hot tub world, diy'er or not you can't make statements like that a year or so of research under your belt as your only experience. Most here have been doing this and been around this business for 10-20 even 30 years. Me just a short 10-15 years on and off. But I have been plumbing for over 25 years, and if you haven't noticed there's a bit of plumbing in a hot tub!!

We offer our opinions freely, take them or leave them we could care less. A knowledgable EXPERIENCED opinion is what I use when I learn, But if you choose not to, so be it, it's your research.

If you have decided to purchase a lower end Big Box tub, good for you, it was right for you. But don't try and compare them to a higher end 7-9 grand tub. Compare them to a middle of the road 5-7 grand tub because you will be closer in your comparision. A few shiny jets and a stereo do not make a quality tub.

[TinyBubbles]

On one hand, some of you are saying that it is unfair to bash your decision for buying a less expensive tub. On the other hand, these same people are being malicious towards people that choose to buy more expensive tubs. Am I the only one that is amazed at the hypocrisy? You can not stand on your soapbox touting yourself as being smarter for buying a less expensive tub, while at the same time throwing rocks at people for acting superior because of their dealer backed spa. If you want this to be an informative website, offer your experiences with YOUR tub. Does it somehow make a less expensive tub better if you malign a more expensive tub? Likewise, is your more expensive tub going to last longer or be more efficient if you degrade someone elses purchase? People get so angry, they lose site of the facts. It makes no sense to taunt someone with the threat of their dealer going out of business, while the big box store will always be there. You can't call a big box store for service on your spa or chemical advice. So, who cares if it's in business. That's a mute point.

I've been in the pool business for 16 years, all parts are not created equal. Even if they are from the same manufacturer. There is a reason balboa makes so many control systems. Some are top of the line, some are not. Anyone who's ever been in business knows they aren't putting their best control system in low cost spa. Don't read something into that statement. It's not a judgement. Just a fact.

Do people pay more for warranties? Absolutely. Anyone who has been spa shopping has seen this. I bought an Artesian. They have 3 lines. I bought in the least expensive line and my warranty is shorter. I could have paid to upgrade it, I chose not too. So clearly, the cost of that warranty is built into the sales price. It's no different than cars. BMW has a plan where you don't pay for service for like 3 years or something....yeah right. You paid for it when you bought the car.

[Tom]

I changed the thread title, because of the irony in the opening post (which others have pointed out). It's been a good, vigorous discussion!

[tsand]

I changed the thread title, because of the irony in the opening post (which others have pointed out). It's been a good, vigorous discussion!

Here are a few lessons learned from a humble person still looking for a Tub:

1. Some people on this Forum have a vested, financial stake in what tub I (the public) buy. They are not looking out for me, they are looking out for their business interests (fair enough).

2. Some people on this Forum are just plain rude (Costco proponents, Dealer Proponents and the Peanut gallery all included).

3. It is a free country (at least until some convinces me otherwise) . So the flames, name calling, rude behavior and other poor manners will continue. Funny how hiding behind a keyboard make people feel free to insult, while face to face many wouldn't never do so. Therefor those reasonable folks looking for information will have to sort through the chafe until we find the wheat.

4. Cyber bullies are in most every forum. (If you think this site is tough go to ContractorsTalk.com and see the flames there, brutal).

Thanks to all of you that post to the common good. I appreciate everyone's opinion (and their interpretation of the facts) as long as they are presented in good faith.

Thanks

Tsand

[Pathfinder]

Curious tsand, who on the forum has a financial vested interest in what hot tub you buy?

[tsand]

Curious tsand, who on the forum has a financial vested interest in what hot tub you buy?

Interesting bait, but I will bite.

I would suspect that it could be Spa/Pool dealer or a Division manager for a Spa manufacture. Or it might be someone who decided to start their own Spa/pool dealership.

Either individual has a business interest in me not buying a big box spa. In other words anyone that is attempting to steer me towards the Spa manufacturer/dealer sales model. If I buy at Costco, I don't buy at a dealer.

Please reread my last post and note that I am not criticizing anyone. I simply suggesting that there are some on this forum as I describe above.

Newbies and those sincerely looking for information and advice on a spa purchase should be aware of this fact.

They should also be aware that there are some on this forum that have some kind of ego stake in convincing others that the big box spa they purchased is better/equal/whatever than the dealer provided spa.

I am just looking for some civil discourse and reasonable, fact based opinion.

Thanks

Tsand

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Curious tsand, who on the forum has a financial vested interest in what hot tub you buy?

I would suspect that it could be Spa/Pool dealer or a Division manager for a Spa manufacture. Or it might be someone who decided to start their own Spa/pool dealership.

There certainly are industry people on this site but I think they're sharing their opinions based on what they feel is sound advice, not to steal a spa from Costco's sales. If you want to believe people have a vested interest that's fine.

On the other hand NW was a major poster on this site (until recently coincidentally) pushing the Costco Platinum spa as the way to go but it seems to be pretty common knowledge that he worked for Hydrospa who made them. Soakerman (or is it Silverfish, I mix them up) is a big proponent of Costco who always has inside information relative to their inner workings and it's pretty much assumed he works for Costco.

I guess there are people from both sides trying to pull you there way. They probably have your name on a list as part of their quota of people to recruit. You'll just have to fend them off and make your own decision.

[tsand]

Curious tsand, who on the forum has a financial vested interest in what hot tub you buy?

I would suspect that it could be Spa/Pool dealer or a Division manager for a Spa manufacture. Or it might be someone who decided to start their own Spa/pool dealership.

There certainly are industry people on this site but I think they're sharing their opinions based on what they feel is sound advice, not to steal a spa from Costco's sales. If you want to believe people have a vested interest that's fine.

On the other hand NW was a major poster on this site (until recently coincidentally) pushing the Costco Platinum spa as the way to go but it seems to be pretty common knowledge that he worked for Hydrospa who made them. Soakerman (or is it Silverfish, I mix them up) is a big proponent of Costco who always has inside information relative to their inner workings and it's pretty much assumed he works for Costco.

I guess there are people from both sides trying to pull you there way. They probably have your name on a list as part of their quota of people to recruit. You'll just have to fend them off and make your own decision.

Interestingly, I almost typed in my last post "those who might own Costco/Walmart stock" (does Cost have stock?). I didn't post that because I wasn't sure if Costco is publicly traded and didn't have time to look it up.

Anyway, the last sentence in your post above appears to be very wise and can be attributed to many on this forum.

Thanks

Tsand

[Tom]

So the flames, name calling, rude behavior and other poor manners will continue.

The moderating team will do their best to ensure that this is not the case.