Sun Peak Spa - Costco

[kengorman]

I few weeks ago I posted some info about Infinity's BBB report. At the time, they had an Unsatisfactory rating, and 4 complaints. They've gained two more since then - they're up to 6 complaints now. If they keep getting 2 complaints per month they'll quickly be the most complained-about company in the industry.

The only other spa manufacturer I can find with an Unsatisfactory rating is Thermospa.

I think Infinity will have a ways to go before they catch up with the number of complaints of Sundance or Jacuzzi. According to the BBB, Sundance (dba Jacuzzi) has 30 complaints over the same time period when Infinity only logged 6 complaints.

D.P. Roberts failed to mention that all 6 complaints about Infinity spas were resolved.

The reference to Jacuzzi is here.

The BBB Infinity reference is here.

The other thing to note is that Infinity doesn't market or sell their spas through a dealer network. If I were to purchase a Dimension 1, Sundance, etc. spa from a dealer and had a complaint, I'd probably file the complaint against the dealer and not the manufacturer.

It is difficult, at best, to get good comparison data of Infinity versus other brands using the BBB because of reporting differences mentioned above.

Just for comparison's sake, I decided to do a BBB search of Spa and Hot Tub dealers within a short radius of my home. It is really interesting to note what I found:

Leary's Home Center is the closest spa dealer to my house. Leary's got an unsatisfactory rating and 5 complaints.link

How about Anythony Sylvan ? They are a large dealer about 5 miles from my house. They logged 35 complaints over the last 36 months.

link

So what's a consumer to do? The dealers that serve my relatively small geographic area log more than 5 times as many complaints than Infinity Spas which is serving a much larger area.

Ken

[biggz]

So what's a consumer to do? The dealers that serve my relatively small geographic area log more than 5 times as many complaints than Infinity Spas which is serving a much larger area.

Ouch!!

[D.P. Roberts]

I think Infinity will have a ways to go before they catch up with the number of complaints of Sundance or Jacuzzi. According to the BBB, Sundance (dba Jacuzzi) has 30 complaints over the same time period when Infinity only logged 6 complaints.

D.P. Roberts failed to mention that all 6 complaints about Infinity spas were resolved.

The reference to Jacuzzi is here.

The BBB Infinity reference is here.

The other thing to note is that Infinity doesn't market or sell their spas through a dealer network. If I were to purchase a Dimension 1, Sundance, etc. spa from a dealer and had a complaint, I'd probably file the complaint against the dealer and not the manufacturer.

It is difficult, at best, to get good comparison data of Infinity versus other brands using the BBB because of reporting differences mentioned above.

1. Please READ your own link to the Infinity report. The very first sentence states "Based on the BBB files, this company has an unsatisfactory record due to failure to respond to a complaint." All 6 complaints were NOT resolved. The unresolved one is under the "Product Issues" part, in case your were wondering. In the future, I suggest actually READING the "facts" before you claim that they support your case!

2. You said that if you bought a spa from a dealer you'd "probably" file the complaint against the dealer. But if you buy a spa from Costco, you wouldn't try to deal with Costco first? Costco has this wonderful return policy, no questions asked - this is allegedly BETTER than a manufacturer's warranty. But people are taking cases to the BBB instead. Perhaps it's more difficult to return a spa to Costco than it seems?

3. I'll agree that it's hard to spot trends & make comparisons with these BBB reports. As I mentioned, Infinity has 6 complaints in 36 months, but all of them have been in the past year, and I know for a fact that it said 4 reports just a few weeks ago. I have no idea how long Infinity has been in business, or distributing spas through Costco, but their complaint numbers are trending UPWARDS. I'll be curious to see where they stand a year from now (assuming, they don't go under, like Hydro Spa).

4. It's interesting that you just "happened" to pick Jacuzzi/Sundance as your representative manufacturer. Why not Watkins, the biggest manufacturer in the business? They've only had 3 complaints in the past year - half as many as Infinity. D1 has had 3, Marquis and Bullfrog 1 each. Artesian and Arctic have had zero. ALL OF THESE BRANDS HAVE BETTER RECORDS THAN INFINITY!

5. The complaint rate for Jacuzzi/Sundance is much higher than the rest of the "reputable" national brands. I'm not sure why- it could be just a matter of sales volume, I don't know. And either way, at least Jacuzzi actually RESOLVED their complaints - unlike Infinity.

[kengorman]

In the future, I suggest actually READING the "facts" before you claim that they support your case!

Thank you for the suggestion. I did read the report. The report states the following:

The BBB processed a total of 6 complaints about this company in the last 36 months, our standard reporting period.Of the total of 6 complaints closed in 36 months, 6 were closed in the last year.

I mis-interpreted "closed" as being "resolved". Upon more careful reading, as you pointed out, it also states that one of the complaints got a "No Response".

The report also states, "However the business has resolved most complaints presented to the bureau."

Ok - so Infinity resolved every complaint save one. Is that a mark of a disreputable company?

Perhaps it's more difficult to return a spa to Costco than it seems?

Perhaps. I haven't read or seen anything that would lead me to think this. Conversely, I have read reports from unhappyHYDROSPAowner who did return a tub to costco without issue on September 21.

Please note that the tub was not an Infinity, but a Hydro Spa tub sold by Costco.

but their complaint numbers are trending UPWARDS. I'll be curious to see where they stand a year from now (assuming, they don't go under, like Hydro Spa).

Could it be the increased numbers are due to increased sales? 6 reports out of how many tubs?

I wonder what is trending upwards faster - their sales numbers or their complaint numbers? Perhaps their sales numbers are rising because of all the word-of-mouth marketing they're receiving. This coupled with a lot of positive reviews.

4. It's interesting that you just "happened" to pick Jacuzzi/Sundance as your representative manufacturer. Why not Watkins, the biggest manufacturer in the business?

I picked Jacuzzi/Sundance over Watkins because I'm familiar with the Jacuzzi name. I've never heard of Watkins. I know of Jacuzzi because my bathtub is a Jacuzzi. I know of Jacuzzi because before I purchased my Infinity, I went to two dealers - one sold Sundance and the other sold Jacuzzi.

And either way, at least Jacuzzi actually RESOLVED their complaints - unlike Infinity.

They are not that unlike. Infinity resolved all but one.

What do you think the BBB rating of Infinity means? Do you really think Infinity doesn't stand behind their products? In this thread, I posted the poster's names of roughly 20 people who purchased Infinity spas within the last 8 weeks. There's an occasional D1 or Sundance post, but the board's been dominated by Infinity posts.

The interesting thing to note is some of the tubs had issues. I previously posted about popping jets, delivery issues, etc. If you go back and read the posts, especially the ones that had issues, you'll notice that in every case, the issue was resolved to the satisfaction of the consumer.

Much to the dismay of some of protectionist dealer crowd here, there hasn't been the wave of troublesome Infinity posts, unless, of course, you count the 1 BBB report a "wave".

Ken

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Could it be the increased numbers are due to increased sales? 6 reports out of how many tubs?

First of all, all things being equal (which they aren't but that's not the point) I would expect companies that sell through Costco to have FAR fewer BBB issues IN THEORY. The reason being that they have the simple option to just return the spa if they aren't getting resolution on issues whereas people dealing with a dealer IN THEORY would be more apt to have to make the complaint to the BBB as a hammer to get resolution. I gotta believe a good % of those Costco returns are people who weren't happy with the spa due to problems and after not getting resolution simply returned it. I wonder how many would have complained to the BBB if they couldn't return it.

If you want to thump your chest on the Costco return policy as a positive that's fine but I don't think Infinity’s BBB record sheds a positive light on them at all. Same thing with hydro, I shutter to think how many more BBB complaints they would have if people like Mendoza and others on this site couldn't have returned it to Costco and would have had to try to get resolution (and I mean before the bankruptcy).

As far as numbers go, I can't quote anything exact or anything more than guestimations but Sundance/Jacuzzi made/sold FARRRRR more spas the past 5 years than Infinity, like maybe 4x, 5x, 6x!?!?

[D.P. Roberts]

Okay, I've been meaning to do this for weeks - since the volume of business as related to complaints is finally an issue, I did some research into the size of the companies we're talking about. A lot of the information on sales came from Hoovers dot com, and most everything else came from BBB reports & other articles I can cite for anyone who's really interested.

Annual sales by rank:

Watkins (Hot Spring, Caldera, etc.): $75 million

Sundance: $54.5 million

Blue Falls Mfg (Arctic): $52,729,420.03 (you gotta count those three cents - those Canadians!)

Tatum Mfg (Gulf Coast & many OEM spas): $35 million

Marquis: $17 million

Dimension One: $15.6 million

May Mfg. (Artesian): $7.8 million

Infinity Spas: $1.2 million

I didn't include MAAX (Coleman, etc.) or Jacuzzi because I couldn't break spa sales out of their totals.

Number of employees (compiled from BBB reports or other sources):

Sundance: 960

Marquis: approx. 200

Artesian: approx. 100

Infinity: 20

I know Watkins claims an ability to produce approx. 100,000 spas per year. Tatum says 45,000. Using those numbers as a rough guide, when we compare employee & sales ratios that puts Infinity at about 1500 tubs per year.

So Infinity (which started in 2006) employs 20 people, and makes about 5 or 6 tubs per day. The main Hot Spring factory, by contrast, employs about a thousand people and cranks out almost 300 spas per day.

So, on one hand you have ISO 9001-certified manufacturers who have been around for decades, have made THOUSANDS of spas, and have the support to back them up all over the country.

On the other hand, you have 20 guys operating more or less out of a garage in Tennessee, who just started last year.

Lots of good companies have started in garages. Lots of good products are STILL being hand made in small shops and factories all over the world. Musical instruments and furniture come to mind.

I just don't think spas are one of those products. Which company do you really trust to be there for you years from now when your tub breaks? Which one has really done the research? Which one has the buying power to get the best components at the best prices? Which one has the customer service and finances to stand behind their product if there's a problem?

So now, finally, let's look at the complaints. Infinity is about 50 times smaller than its largest competitors. Multiply those 6 complaints per year x 50 = 300 BBB complaints, if they were the size of Watkins or Sundance. Now do you think that's a problem?

[Roger]

Ouch!!

Double ouch!!

[104 Degrees]

Ouch!!

Double ouch!!

Triple Ouch You all love to type

[kengorman]

Okay, I've been meaning to do this for weeks - since the volume of business as related to complaints is finally an issue, I did some research into the size of the companies we're talking about.

Thanks for the information.

So now, finally, let's look at the complaints. Infinity is about 50 times smaller than its largest competitors. Multiply those 6 complaints per year x 50 = 300 BBB complaints, if they were the size of Watkins or Sundance. Now do you think that's a problem?

You make a good point that the number of complaints of Infinity is disproportionate to its size compared to the larger manufacturers.

Ken

[TinyBubbles]

D.P. thanks for your post. That was very informative and interesting. Are you a spa owner or are you shopping for a spa?

[D.P. Roberts]

D.P. thanks for your post. That was very informative and interesting. Are you a spa owner or are you shopping for a spa?

Both. I had a Sundance spa at my last house, which I liked very much. I'm a soon-to-be spa owner at my new house (my used Sundance tub is due to be delivered in 11 days 21 hours, not that I'm counting) . I'm also considering a new career in the hot tub industry, so I'm trying to find out everything I can about it, which is the real reason for my copious amounts of research.

[TinyBubbles]

Well congratulations on the new home and spa. Did you buy your used tub from a dealer or individual? Does that make you brave? Venturing into the spa industry when most people say it's hurting?

[104 Degrees]

Both. I had a Sundance spa at my last house, which I liked very much. I'm a soon-to-be spa owner at my new house (my used Sundance tub is due to be delivered in 11 days 21 hours, not that I'm counting) . I'm also considering a new career in the hot tub industry, so I'm trying to find out everything I can about it, which is the real reason for my copious amounts of research.

How are you going to sell a 8000 spa when the look alikes sell for 3500 that includes delivery???

John

[Tom]

I did some research into the size of the companies we're talking about.

As moderator, I offer my compliments to the board for the quality of this discussion. For my contribution, I add to DP's figures.

Blue Falls Mfg (Arctic): $52,729,420.03 (you gotta count those three cents - those Canadians!)

Back when we used monopoly money, those three cents were important. The above figure is for fiscal 2004. For 2005 the figure was $63 591 018 (as published in Profit Magazine, June 2006, p 104 and the most recent figures available in public documents)

Number of employees (compiled from BBB reports or other sources):

Sundance: 960

Arctic: 289 (as of May, 2005, in three factories; Profit Magazine, ibid.)

Marquis: approx. 200

Artesian: approx. 100

Infinity: 20

Which company do you really trust to be there for you years from now when your tub breaks? Which one has really done the research? Which one has the buying power to get the best components at the best prices? Which one has the customer service and finances to stand behind their product if there's a problem?

These are important questions which are often overlooked.

[D.P. Roberts]

Well congratulations on the new home and spa. Did you buy your used tub from a dealer or individual?

I bought it used from my local Sundance dealer. I bought my first (new) tub from them back in 1999, and I trust them. My Sundance was easy to care for and never had any problems. The water was always crystal clear, and I hardly ever had to mess with the chemicals. So, I like Sundance. I would have brought my old tub to the new house, but it wouldn't fit. Plus, the guy who bought my old house insisted on keeping it. The new tub is smaller, but the same vintage as my original tub, so I'm already familiar with how it works. I spent $1500 on it, which I know is a lot for a tub of that vintage. However, that includes a new cover, all new pillows, installing an ozonator, delivery, chemicals, & setup. It's the brand I want and the size I want from the dealer I like, so I'm fine with it. Plus, I'd like to see how an "older" Sundance holds up over the years.

How are you going to sell a 8000 spa when the look alikes sell for 3500 that includes delivery???

John

Does that make you brave? Venturing into the spa industry when most people say it's hurting?

As to the two posts above, I'm honestly not that worried. Yes, the industry as a whole does seem to be hurting. Most spa companies are losing money. I'm not really sure why this is - a lot of people seem to blame the downturn in the housing market. This is obviously a huge problem nationwide, and it looks like it hasn't even hit bottom yet. The financial reports I've read from the spa manufacturers blame the housing market for their woes. Hydro Spa listed as one of the causes of their bankruptcy.

However, it's not true where I live. Not at all. I live in the third fastest growing county in my state. This may or may not sound like much, but it's quite obvious here. The urban population in nearby Columbus (pop. over 1 million) is moving to my rural area in huge numbers. The school districts literally cannot build schools fast enough to house all the new students. The same builders who are suffering in Columbus can't build houses fast enough around here. Home prices may be falling nationwide, but I've not seen an impact on the sale prices here. I think part of the reason for that is we never really had a housing "boom" to begin with, so there's no freefall like in places like California.

Secondly, as John pointed out, there's the "big box" and online trend. Of the two main obstacles, this one concerns me more than the housing problem. However, there's some hope. First of all, the nearest Sam's Club and Costco are 25 miles away in Columbus, in the next county. People around here drive down to Columbus when they need to, but they generally prefer not to (they moved out here to get AWAY from Columbus). Retail development is going through a major boom right now - people want to stay here to shop. This is an ideal starting ground for small businesses - a huge influx of new customers, but the population is still way too low to support a Sam's Club or Costco nearby. It will be quite a while, if ever, until that happens.

As for the prices. First of all, Columbus isn't a high-priced area to begin with. As I recently posted in the current thread on Artesian prices, you can get new tubs from the big brands around here for thousands less than they sell for in other parts of the country. You can get a nice Jacuzzi 200 or 300 series tub, or a 700 series Sundance, for around $6000. And I'm in a rural area, where prices are even lower (but on their way up), so I could probably charge less for a similar brand. I have no access to dealer prices yet, but I would think Jacuzzi and Sundance are not at the low end. If I can find brands that sell for less, I can probably offer some good tubs for $5000-$6000. Maybe not the $3500 to $4000 that Lowe's or Home Depot may offer, but it's at least in the ballpark. So, my job as a salesperson would be to convince them to spend the extra $1000 or $2000 on what I believe to be a much better tub with a local sales & support staff behind them. I think that's reasonable.

Lastly, there's the internet (Costco, eBay, and everybody else). I'm currently in the business of selling books. And if there's one area of American business that's migrating to the internet, it's the book business. So I'm very familiar with how & why shoppers take their business to the web.

The main reason, of course, is price. Customers look at me every day with incredulous looks on their faces when I tell them the price of a book is the actual cover price, and not 40-50% off like Amazon or even our own web site. "Why should I pay that when I can go home and buy it for half that price?" they ask. Other than the time it takes for shipping, I don't have an answer - in the short term.

In the long term, the answer is that those discounts are not sustainable. The dirty little secret of the Internet is that e-commerce companies and brick-and-mortar stores buy their books from the same wholesalers. In most cases, you get UP TO 30-40% off the cover price. So, if Amazon lists a book at 40% off, they're basically giving away their margin. As I mentioned, my own company is doing this, and I've often asked the corporate muckymucks why. Basically, like almost all e-commerce now, it's all about market share. Eventually, once the market "matures" (whenever that is) and the smaller companies are driven out, price will no longer be the deciding factor in online shopping. Prices will then go up, so that the companies involved can FINALLY make a profit (as all companies want to do).

I think we've established that the manufacturers of the "internet hot tubs" don't have anything truly spectacular going vs. the traditional manufacturers. Prices will eventually level out (and I believe that in my unique location I can stay competitive until they do). The last element is the "shopping experience". There's little reason to shop in a bookstore compared with shopping online. I can sit at my computer and research/purchase MILLIONS of books, or I can take the extra time to drive to my local store with a smaller selection. A book is pretty much a book- they have covers, and pages inside with numbers on them (if you think about it, what you're buying is an IDEA, so presentation doesn't really matter much). I don't need to see, feel, or touch a book before I buy it.

I believe a hot tub is quite different. The single most important aspect of using a hot tub is how it FEELS. And you'll NEVER be able to experience that while shopping online. So, since I really want to own my own retail business and be my own boss, selling a product that's virtually "internet proof" seems to be the best way to go.

So that, in a nutshell, is my idea. Okay, it was a big, long-winded nutshell. But any feedback, via post or PM, would be appreciated.

[East TX Spa]

Term

[D.P. Roberts]

Term

"Life is like buying a spa over the internet - you never know what you're gonna get." - Forrest Gump, CEO of Bubba Gump Hot Tubs

[nebulous]

New to this "forum" thing so please cut me some slack for going off topic here...

My husband and I are ready to purchase the infinity hot tub and I'm wondering if I can ask a couple questions: are you happy with your purchase? Even though you have encountered a couple issues would you still reccomend the tub for the cost? And just how comfortable are the seats? Is there a more "shallow" seats that could be a little more kid friendly?

The seat with shoulder jets might be okay for kids, its a little on the small side for me (6'1"). Both side seats are a little shallower too. Any kid who is old enough to actually sit still in a hot tub should be fine.

Would love to see pictures of both your spas. Day & night pictures please!

I added a couple at the end of the site I linked earlier with my shaky hands its a marvel of Japanese engineering that the pictures came out at all. Still need to get the interior shots, but its my gf's camera so I can only take them when she's around and I remember...

[NJM]

it's up & running & we are very happy.

Up & running nearly 2 months with no complaints- though as one other user had commented the temp isn't the easiest to read during the day- and I think the right side jets are almost too strong.

we had a cracked piece of siding during the shipping called Laura Brown- had the replacement in days- when we didn't want to change it ourselves- it was in the middle of the panel and was afraid we may damage others removing- Infinity had a local dealer come over to replace- he looked over the insides as well and was impressed with the quality of the box, insulation etc.- stated it would have cost us twice as much for a similar sizr tub & features with him. We did ask what brand he sold.

Our biggest issue has been with chemical balance of the water- we have well water- had opted for the Nature 2 - but may go to bromide next time around- anyone else having issues. It may just be new user issues - checking the water too frequently

Infinity also sells over ebay as Esstenial spas- Wholesale recreation- and you can get a more personalized tub- I have used their site for more info on the tub than the little generic booklet-

http://www.wholesalerecreation.biz/index.htm

I would recommend this brand-

[bn2wild]

Here is the CostCo Spa Skinny.....

I received my CostCo Infinity 6-person spa 1-week ago today.

It arrived in 12 weeks, the delivery crew ONLY dropped it off in my driveway - just like the on-line advertisement says. But I was able to move it with the help of 2 friends and purchasing 2 furnature dollies from Home Depot.

I fortunately read the instructions plus this site about filling the tub properly.

But still had problems with the one pump motor locking up so it did nothing as others have reported.

First I wrote them, then after 2 days I called "Infinity Spas" technical support.

The technician told me about the 2-thumb screws, this opend the jets immediately.

The only other "bad" things to report, are the 2" jets that keep getting ejected into the tub & the fact that a piece of the 1" trim at the removable panel was broken in transport.

The technician says to see if there is silicone slobber not allowing the jets to seat properly, and they are sending out someone to verify this.

They said they are mailing the extra piece out as well.

I will let you know what happens...

(glad I found this post)

[GeoffH]

As a fellow do-it-yourselfer, I greatly appreciate all the pictures. You did a great job. I'd love to see it running and at night. A part of me is jealous that you got a spa you'll really enjoy at a price that is enjoyable too. Please keep us updated.

Well I'm new at this... but here goes. Ordered the Sun Peak from Costco.ca (yes that's right I'm in the Great White North) on Sept 20th, got and email Oct 21st saying delivery would be delayed but should get here before the end of November, that would make it 8 weeks! Should be fun doing all the final stuff at the near-freezing mark. It WILL give me a chance to complete the rest of the project (surrounding deck, corrugated plastic roof, rest of the electric)

Those that have been using their Sun Peaks - how goes it?