Fully Foamed

[Roger]

insulated Hot Tub versus Thermal Pane insulated Hot Tub? How hard would it be to convince those who sell either style of hot tub to consider the fact that there argument over which is better revolves around the 20 percent heat loss out the sides of the vessel versus the 80 percent heat loss out the top. And if your bill is 20 bucks a month and you think your insulation style is a little better than the other guys then how much money are we talking? Lets do some speculative math if it's 20 bucks a month and we are talking 20 percent of that, thats 4 bucks. Now your tub is 10 percent better than the other guys in insulation (probably closer to 5% better), thats 20-40 cents a month!!! Wow I can not believe 20 cents has become important to some people and yet they are going out to buy a hot tub. And even if your bill is 40 bucks a month, now your talking 40-80 cents a month!! We argue as people about the dumbest things sometimes.

Sorry up early venting a bit.

[Sunbuilt Pools]

Interesting math but your hypothesis of 80 to 20% is wrong. The sides and bottom of a tub and the pipes represent a much larger surface area (tipically 3 times the top) that can be exposed to the elements. While heat rises so the larger % loss is from the water surface, the cold transfered from the floor will also have a sizeable effect on the tub. Your monthly bill will be based on the climate, so you are right, in more temperate areas the heat loss is less of a factor. However, a well insulated tub can offer a 10 to 15 dollar savings in winter months in colder climates where the heating bill is $30-40. When using a tub the heat loss is caused by the addition of cool air to the water and insulation plays no factor. While the argument for a fully foamed vs. sprayed foam is waged for marketing reasons, the fact remains, the better you insulate your tub, the more efficient it will be reheating after use. Personally I prefer full foam casing because it acts as a support for the tub and makes the tub easier to move.

[Guzz]

insulated Hot Tub versus Thermal Pane insulated Hot Tub? How hard would it be to convince those who sell either style of hot tub to consider the fact that there argument over which is better revolves around the 20 percent heat loss out the sides of the vessel versus the 80 percent heat loss out the top. And if your bill is 20 bucks a month and you think your insulation style is a little better than the other guys then how much money are we talking? Lets do some speculative math if it's 20 bucks a month and we are talking 20 percent of that, thats 4 bucks. Now your tub is 10 percent better than the other guys in insulation (probably closer to 5% better), thats 20-40 cents a month!!! Wow I can not believe 20 cents has become important to some people and yet they are going out to buy a hot tub. And even if your bill is 40 bucks a month, now your talking 40-80 cents a month!! We argue as people about the dumbest things sometimes.

Sorry up early venting a bit.

Go back to bed.

[drumstick]

all i can add is i have had both kinds of spas. a coleman 472 with THERMO LOCK insulation and a marquis every day 530 with full foam. the coleman was using on avg 30 kwh per day and the marquis is using on avg of 10 kwh per day. both had the highest rated cover on them. simple to see for me. the outdoor weather was pretty much the same as i took the last week of feb stats for the coleman and the first week of march for the marquis, and in the U.p. it is still cold then.

[sharkman009]

insulated Hot Tub versus Thermal Pane insulated Hot Tub? How hard would it be to convince those who sell either style of hot tub to consider the fact that there argument over which is better revolves around the 20 percent heat loss out the sides of the vessel versus the 80 percent heat loss out the top. And if your bill is 20 bucks a month and you think your insulation style is a little better than the other guys then how much money are we talking? Lets do some speculative math if it's 20 bucks a month and we are talking 20 percent of that, thats 4 bucks. Now your tub is 10 percent better than the other guys in insulation (probably closer to 5% better), thats 20-40 cents a month!!! Wow I can not believe 20 cents has become important to some people and yet they are going out to buy a hot tub. And even if your bill is 40 bucks a month, now your talking 40-80 cents a month!! We argue as people about the dumbest things sometimes.

Sorry up early venting a bit.

There are many other reasons in my opinion that full foam is better. If you want to focus on strictly heat loss I believe some of your calculations would be off and how the thermal lock is done is going to make a big difference as that even differs from manufacturer to manufacturer.

You are leaving a lot of other things out of the argument for or against full foam.

[cros99]

insulated Hot Tub versus Thermal Pane insulated Hot Tub? How hard would it be to convince those who sell either style of hot tub to consider the fact that there argument over which is better revolves around the 20 percent heat loss out the sides of the vessel versus the 80 percent heat loss out the top. And if your bill is 20 bucks a month and you think your insulation style is a little better than the other guys then how much money are we talking? Lets do some speculative math if it's 20 bucks a month and we are talking 20 percent of that, thats 4 bucks. Now your tub is 10 percent better than the other guys in insulation (probably closer to 5% better), thats 20-40 cents a month!!! Wow I can not believe 20 cents has become important to some people and yet they are going out to buy a hot tub. And even if your bill is 40 bucks a month, now your talking 40-80 cents a month!! We argue as people about the dumbest things sometimes.

Sorry up early venting a bit.

Roger--

Although an issue, its not the 40 cents a month or $40 for that matter that is my first concern. My first concern is how long will heat remain inside the tub casing in case of power failure during a New england winter. As you can well imagine, line/pump freeze ups can be disasterous. Will the ambient temperature stay above 32 degrees for an hour? Three? Six? (obviously keeping the cover on tight.)

Now...the topic doesn't seem so dumb....to me anyway.

Cros'

[imback31]

I live in Winnipeg MB, average temp in winter is -20 to -30 C, I have full foam and most friends have full foam, I have one friend with a very similar Artic Spa with the thermal lock system. His cost for heating his tub is almost exactly the same as ours. No matter what anyone says there is very little to no savings in real world use with these types of tubs. So the real question is do you want to allow your pumps to run in the summer months in a non-cooling environment, where heat will slowly destroy them, and do you want your plumbing to hang free and slowly work themselves loose until they leak.

Heating a gap of air may sound like a good idea but the area that is gapped will have leaks around the door of the pump access, (this can’t be stopped), so when it is -20 outside go stand beside your best sealed door in your house, and feel the cool entering your house, this is what is happening in this gap. There is other science that says the vessel of water, whether it is colder or warmer then the gap has more potential energy, therefore it will either leak heat or cool to the gap rather then gain heat from this gap. If it were really easy to heat the tub from below with hot air then these companies would use it as the sole way to heat the water, saving wear and tear on the current heater method and also heating the tub evenly, but again this does not work so they don’t do it.

[Guzz]

I live in Winnipeg MB, average temp in winter is -20 to -30 C, I have full foam and most friends have full foam, I have one friend with a very similar Artic Spa with the thermal lock system. His cost for heating his tub is almost exactly the same as ours. No matter what anyone says there is very little to no savings in real world use with these types of tubs. So the real question is do you want to allow your pumps to run in the summer months in a non-cooling environment, where heat will slowly destroy them, and do you want your plumbing to hang free and slowly work themselves loose until they leak.

Heating a gap of air may sound like a good idea but the area that is gapped will have leaks around the door of the pump access, (this can’t be stopped), so when it is -20 outside go stand beside your best sealed door in your house, and feel the cool entering your house, this is what is happening in this gap. There is other science that says the vessel of water, whether it is colder or warmer then the gap has more potential energy, therefore it will either leak heat or cool to the gap rather then gain heat from this gap. If it were really easy to heat the tub from below with hot air then these companies would use it as the sole way to heat the water, saving wear and tear on the current heater method and also heating the tub evenly, but again this does not work so they don’t do it.

Arctic spas are the only one I've seen that really do a good job with Thermal Pane, a lot of other manufacturers that attempt it are just cutting corners to save production costs. You can't tell me that having a reflective barrier ( tin foil) is an attempt to save consumers money, because thats what some spa makers get away with.

[Canadian Kahuna]

I live in Winnipeg MB, average temp in winter is -20 to -30 C, I have full foam and most friends have full foam, I have one friend with a very similar Artic Spa with the thermal lock system. His cost for heating his tub is almost exactly the same as ours. No matter what anyone says there is very little to no savings in real world use with these types of tubs. So the real question is do you want to allow your pumps to run in the summer months in a non-cooling environment, where heat will slowly destroy them, and do you want your plumbing to hang free and slowly work themselves loose until they leak.

Heating a gap of air may sound like a good idea but the area that is gapped will have leaks around the door of the pump access, (this can’t be stopped), so when it is -20 outside go stand beside your best sealed door in your house, and feel the cool entering your house, this is what is happening in this gap. There is other science that says the vessel of water, whether it is colder or warmer then the gap has more potential energy, therefore it will either leak heat or cool to the gap rather then gain heat from this gap. If it were really easy to heat the tub from below with hot air then these companies would use it as the sole way to heat the water, saving wear and tear on the current heater method and also heating the tub evenly, but again this does not work so they don’t do it.

Winnipeg's average temperature over the coldest month (not all winter), January, is actually -17.7 C based on historical data averages. Take into account the other winter months, which are historically much warmer on average, and your overall winter average would be much warmer than -17.7 C. Winnipegs average winter temperature is probably more around the -10C range. Temperature debate aside, FF vs TP shouldn't be an issue when buying a tub as you are buying it for COMFORT, and of course quality, and quality can be found in BOTH types of tubs depending on the manufacturer. I own an arctic spa, my power went out for several days to my tub during a cold snap (-40C) and i hadn't noticed as i wasn't using my tub that the breaker was tripped inadvertantly when another breaker in the house went and somebody (wife?) hit the tub breaker not knowing and didn't turn it back on (arguement here for having your gfci outside and not in your panel? LOL). Anyways, after 2 days (we knew when it was tripped), i went to use my tub. Found out what happened, turned power back on, and the water temp was still at 97F (ok, not consistent with C vs F), so there really isn't much heat lost through the doors, and my plumbing was not frozen at all. This show's to me that arctic does build a good quality tub that holds it's heat well, and i'm not making a plug for or against FF or TP, i don't look at my insulation, i look at my tub, and sit in my tub, and try not to think about insulation, or bills, or whatever . . . just relax, burn one, enjoy a beer, whatever. Oh, my father in law has a FF tub, 2 years now, no problems and his bills aren't much different, but i like my seating better :-)

[imback31]

Well put.

[sharkman009]

Winnipeg's average temperature over the coldest month (not all winter), January, is actually -17.7 C based on historical data averages. Take into account the other winter months, which are historically much warmer on average, and your overall winter average would be much warmer than -17.7 C. Winnipegs average winter temperature is probably more around the -10C range. Temperature debate aside, FF vs TP shouldn't be an issue when buying a tub as you are buying it for COMFORT, and of course quality, and quality can be found in BOTH types of tubs depending on the manufacturer. I own an arctic spa, my power went out for several days to my tub during a cold snap (-40C) and i hadn't noticed as i wasn't using my tub that the breaker was tripped inadvertantly when another breaker in the house went and somebody (wife?) hit the tub breaker not knowing and didn't turn it back on (arguement here for having your gfci outside and not in your panel? LOL). Anyways, after 2 days (we knew when it was tripped), i went to use my tub. Found out what happened, turned power back on, and the water temp was still at 97F (ok, not consistent with C vs F), so there really isn't much heat lost through the doors, and my plumbing was not frozen at all. This show's to me that arctic does build a good quality tub that holds it's heat well, and i'm not making a plug for or against FF or TP, i don't look at my insulation, i look at my tub, and sit in my tub, and try not to think about insulation, or bills, or whatever . . . just relax, burn one, enjoy a beer, whatever. Oh, my father in law has a FF tub, 2 years now, no problems and his bills aren't much different, but i like my seating better :-)

Your right and that was my point that there are some manufacturers like Arctic that do a good job of sealing the cabinet but there are a lot of manufacturers out there that dont and try to tell the same story and If you would have had one of those brands that would have been one giant ice cube after 24 hours. Glad to hear your happy with your spa.

[thestallion]

Winnipeg's average temperature over the coldest month (not all winter), January, is actually -17.7 C based on historical data averages. Take into account the other winter months, which are historically much warmer on average, and your overall winter average would be much warmer than -17.7 C. Winnipegs average winter temperature is probably more around the -10C range. Temperature debate aside, FF vs TP shouldn't be an issue when buying a tub as you are buying it for COMFORT, and of course quality, and quality can be found in BOTH types of tubs depending on the manufacturer. I own an arctic spa, my power went out for several days to my tub during a cold snap (-40C) and i hadn't noticed as i wasn't using my tub that the breaker was tripped inadvertantly when another breaker in the house went and somebody (wife?) hit the tub breaker not knowing and didn't turn it back on (arguement here for having your gfci outside and not in your panel? LOL). Anyways, after 2 days (we knew when it was tripped), i went to use my tub. Found out what happened, turned power back on, and the water temp was still at 97F (ok, not consistent with C vs F), so there really isn't much heat lost through the doors, and my plumbing was not frozen at all. This show's to me that arctic does build a good quality tub that holds it's heat well, and i'm not making a plug for or against FF or TP, i don't look at my insulation, i look at my tub, and sit in my tub, and try not to think about insulation, or bills, or whatever . . . just relax, burn one, enjoy a beer, whatever. Oh, my father in law has a FF tub, 2 years now, no problems and his bills aren't much different, but i like my seating better :-)

If both types are well made both can work effectively. And each will offer some benefits that the other will not. You mention seating and comfort this in the end is what matters assuming that your spa is well made and will operate in a cost effective manner.

[windsurfdog]

This whole thread just shows that someone can't make the slightest mention of FF or TP without others having a complete hissy fit. I thought Roger's original post to be inocuous enough....BUT NOOOO....just look at the others that were primed and ready to pounce with their well-worn drivel. Thank goodness for Roger, the Canadian Kahuna and others like them.......the rest of you should spend more time at JA's site where someone cares to engage in this useless debate.......worse than politics and/or religion if you can fathom that......

[sharkman009]

This whole thread just shows that someone can't make the slightest mention of FF or TP without others having a complete hissy fit. I thought Roger's original post to be inocuous enough....BUT NOOOO....just look at the others that were primed and ready to pounce with their well-worn drivel. Thank goodness for Roger, the Canadian Kahuna and others like them.......the rest of you should spend more time at JA's site where someone cares to engage in this useless debate.......worse than politics and/or religion if you can fathom that......

Excuse me I think this is a forum. You know a place where ideas and opinions are expressed.

[Roger]

Excuse me I think this is a forum. You know a place where ideas and opinions are expressed.

I love it, so far..........well nothing!!

[sharkman009]

I love it, so far..........well nothing!!

I'm sorry Roger. I guess according to windsurfdog some in this forum were just waiting to pounce>

[Roger]

I'm sorry Roger. I guess according to windsurfdog some in this forum were just waiting to pounce>

Hey nobody needs to apoligize to me. Like I said speculative math and posting. This debate has raged and raged. When I first discoved these forums umpteen years ago they raged then and they have raged now. Good stiff controversy is a turn on for me and good for the sole and since someone left these forums, I dont get my fix. So I though I would try and get it, but I am still having withdrawals so I guess I will have to find another way for that fix. It seems alot have cooled regarding this debate realizing it's unimportance. There's maybe a couple who tryed to read to much into it but there seems also to be those who understood.

It's 1:30 and I am off to the Brule River in WS for a bit of Steelhead fishing. I went to bed at 8:30. I should be the first on on the run and I bet the fish will cooperate. It was almost 60 here yesterday.

[windsurfdog]

Excuse me I think this is a forum. You know a place where ideas and opinions are expressed.

Please keep whipping....obviously you consider the horse to be alive....enjoy.

[sharkman009]

Hey nobody needs to apoligize to me. Like I said speculative math and posting. This debate has raged and raged. When I first discoved these forums umpteen years ago they raged then and they have raged now. Good stiff controversy is a turn on for me and good for the sole and since someone left these forums, I dont get my fix. So I though I would try and get it, but I am still having withdrawals so I guess I will have to find another way for that fix. It seems alot have cooled regarding this debate realizing it's unimportance. There's maybe a couple who tryed to read to much into it but there seems also to be those who understood.

It's 1:30 and I am off to the Brule River in WS for a bit of Steelhead fishing. I went to bed at 8:30. I should be the first on on the run and I bet the fish will cooperate. It was almost 60 here yesterday.

Sure rub it in you get to go fishing while we all have to work! Let us know how you did.

[Canadian Kahuna]

It's 1:30 and I am off to the Brule River in WS for a bit of Steelhead fishing. I went to bed at 8:30. I should be the first on on the run and I bet the fish will cooperate. It was almost 60 here yesterday.

Only 300 miles away from me and you already have rainbow running, we don't even have open water in our rivers/streams yet but shouldn't be too much longer with this weather (was +14C yesterday . . . bikini weather (well, not for me, lol). Gotta get some new line on the reel and tie of some spawn sacs soon i guess, thanks for reminding me, lol . . . good luck (and lets not forget how nice a hot tub is after spending a day out in the sun in cold waters).

[imback31]

The reason I felt I should post was the fact that I am an RSM for a large sales force and what I see from the people pushing these 'thermal lock' type systems is exactly what I have seen from other sales people who have a product that does not stand up to ours and need a way to keep selling theirs. (I'm not saying that this system does not stand up to others in this case, I am saying I was educated on why full foam is as good or better for heat retention, and MUCH better in keeping the tub from falling apart).

The idea of an air gab is not used in any other type of insulating situation, not houses, not airplanes, nothing, (nobody say thermos because that is a true vacuum and works much different). If this idea really added anything to the insulating properties then other industries would have adopted it too, they haven’t.

I believe that anyone who purchases one of these tubs based on saving money when it runs is making a mistake, if they purchase it because they love how it feels, love the look of it and want the peace of mind that if something does fail it may be easier to fix then good for them and enjoy the purchase.

I purchased mine based on feel, look, peace of mind with the company’s warranty and construction methods and the way the filter worked.

[windsurfdog]

I believe that anyone who purchases one of these tubs based on saving money when it runs is making a mistake, if they purchase it because they love how it feels, love the look of it and want the peace of mind that if something does fail it may be easier to fix then good for them and enjoy the purchase.

And, following that logic, for you to infer that there is a substantial cost savings in operational costs, electrical costs specifically, for those tubs that conform to your spa education, then you are making a mistake. I'll happily agree to the last part of your statement.

The horse is dead.......

[Guzz]

And, following that logic, for you to infer that there is a substantial cost savings in operational costs, electrical costs specifically, for those tubs that conform to your spa education, then you are making a mistake. I'll happily agree to the last part of your statement.

The horse is dead.......

Someone will bring it back to life...

[Roger]

Someone will bring it back to life...

As I gallop in!! No just kidding, I'm walking slowly in after a long day on the river. Don't feel bad Kahuna around my house on the north shore the rivers aren't close either, there starting to flow but still iced up pretty good. As you know the brule is always the first to open and between 6 and 10 I hooked up 6 times and only touched 1 fish the rest, without a net were released before my touch. My partner only hooked up 3 times. Vindication for me, as last time we were on the Brule together he hooked up about 3 to 1 against me.

Yea get them sacs tied up. I'm pretty much a yarn guy as IMO they are the best out there....LOL More effiecient easier to repair. And you keep me informed if you hit the river as I make a trip that direction once a year also.

[Brulan1]

As I gallop in!! No just kidding, I'm walking slowly in after a long day on the river. Don't feel bad Kahuna around my house on the north shore the rivers aren't close either, there starting to flow but still iced up pretty good. As you know the brule is always the first to open and between 6 and 10 I hooked up 6 times and only touched 1 fish the rest, without a net were released before my touch. My partner only hooked up 3 times. Vindication for me, as last time we were on the Brule together he hooked up about 3 to 1 against me.

Yea get them sacs tied up. I'm pretty much a yarn guy as IMO they are the best out there....LOL More effiecient easier to repair. And you keep me informed if you hit the river as I make a trip that direction once a year also.

Do you think you can become any more complacent or do you have a little more in you?