windsurfdog

Are you sure you didn't mean "geldingboy"? (Sorry, stallion, I just couldn't resist... )

Interesting how easy a topic like this gets turned into a tp v. ff horse whipping but, I guess I'll throw this in as well: Though I have a blowerless tp spa that works as advertised, I have to agree with the ff'ers regarding the turnover of air from within the tp for tp spas that do have a blower (which companies do this?). Either way, cooler/cold air is introduced into the tub. Possibly the heat from the motors will add to the temp a bit but I just don't see how the temp could not be substantially lower in the same way that it is with ff/blower spas. Just another reason why I prefer blowerless spas....

If HS spas are so easy to sell and sell themselves, why does HS have a sales training program? I'm sorry, I have to disagree that they sell themselves...HS spas aren't THAT good. I seriously considered an HS tub but I wasn't sold one and I'm sure there are many, many more people who are similar. I would suggest salesmanship rule #1: Don't underestimate the competition. Painting a picture that HS sells themselves is underestimating the competition...and you may be short-selling yourself. It is good that you believe in the product you represent to the degree that you do but don't think for a moment that everyone believes what you believe.

I suggest you invest in a life and some personality......

Not fond of'em though I did consider a SD Cameo when I was looking. I feel like the blower motor sounds too much like an old vacuum cleaner.

Let me amend my statement to sidestep those extremely few individuals you mentioned: For those who are buying a spa for it's intended use, therapy, dealer comfort and price are the most important points to ponder when buying a spa. Filtration using 24 hr. circ pumps or not is unimportant--both do the job if well engineered and maintained. All the rest is gum-flapping including most, if not all of this thread.

pt, Did you not see my response to your questions? Look at page 1 of this thread and let me know if I can be of further help.

Might I suggest that you not follow the example of the HS dealer that ptcather mentioned. Your comments are diluted by negativity just as the HS dealer's sales potential is harmed by his. BTW, I'm only familiar with 2 MS dealers and neither told any of the stories you claim. Then again, the ones you are talking about would be discussing their own products and not bashing others.

I own an MS LSX which I'm very happy with after almost 2 years of service. I highly recommend the MS line. I'm not familiar with the DE line except that it is the secondary MS line as Roger mentions. With that said, I would suggest that you let your wet tests, dealer comfort and budgetary constraints be your guides. If you can afford to buy any manufacturer's primary line of tubs, do so. If you cannot afford the primary line, then look secondary. Dealer comfort is a major consideration. I certainly wouldn't buy from the HS dealer you mentioned--no sales technique is less effective that trashing the competition...the primary reason I wouldn't consider a Sundance purchase...our local SD dealer was way more concerned that I know all of the shortcomings of the local HS dealer rather than concentrating on the features of his own tubs...immediate turn-off. To address your questions: 1) Since I'm not familiar with the DE line, go with the MS line if your budget allows. I love my LSX and, so far, all systems have operated properly save one spinner jet that was replaced under warranty. 2&3) I would not be worried about the filtration on the DE. I'm sure it is more than adequate though I might add that those tubs with ozonators and/or 24 hr. circulation pumps MAY allow for a bit less sanitizer use and possibly a bit less user intervention. 4) MS has 3 therapy pumps and 1 24 hr. circ pump. This setup is in no way overkill. Actually, the three therapy pumps (2--2 speed, 1--1 speed) along with the adjustability of individual jets gives the MS line a very high degree of adjustability...probably the most outstanding feature of MS. If you want a very rigorous massage or if you desire a nice, light relaxing soak, the MS pump/jet setup is very effective. 5) As I said previously, if you can afford the primary manufacturer's line, definitely go for it. If your budget is constrained, go secondary. I reiterate: Wet test, wet test, wet test. Find a dealer with which you are comfortable. Buy as much tub as your budget can afford. Best of luck in your search.

Forget the math....forget the debate. If one chooses a spa because of a circ pump or not, then one is missing the whole point of owning a spa. Both systems will keep water clean if the owner does his/her job. Therapy and dealer comfort are the keys....everything else is gum flapping..... Please put a fork in this thread....

To emphasize Jack L's reply: Do not belittle the competition. Talk about your own product and why you feel it's features are the best value. Two of the dealers I visited when looking belittled their competition which immediately turned me off. Another dealer plus is encouragement to wet test. One of the dealers I visited when looking (who happened to be one of the two mentioned above) did not allow wet tests in his showroom! Red flags immediately popped up. When I wet tested, I brought my own towel, swim trunks, etc. I've seen where some dealers offer towels and trunks to wet testers. This would have made a VERY favorable impression on me.

Sorry it has taken so long to answer your post. The deal I cut with the dealer included delivery and setup...that was the way I negotiated the price so I have no idea what the cost was to me. Do drive to Jax and check out the D1 and Marquis line....they are both very well regarded spas. Good luck with your search.

Balsam, I feel your pain re: limited choices. I live just south of Tallahassee and found my spa, MasterSpas LSX, in Tampa which, at that time (2 years ago) was the only MS dealer in FL. Fortunately, now, Tallahassee has an MS dealer. When I was looking, only Leisure Bay and Hot Springs were represented in Tallahassee and then a brand new Sundance dealer opened in the area. Unfortunately, the new SD dealer gave me no positive vibes and was ruled out accordingly even though I was impressed with the Cameo wet test. I ruled out the Leisure Bay from a quality standpoint. I wet tested the HS tubs...they were very nice quality-wise but the price and the therapy kept me looking. Other dealers....D1, Jacuzzi, Marquis....were anywhere from 65 to 150 miles away and the MS dealer in Tampa was about 200 miles away. I went to Tampa and wet tested the LSX and loved the therapy. After negotiating on the price for a month or so, we were able to strike a deal and I've been pleased with the decision ever since. I would suggest you look outside of Gainesville and find the tub that is the best fit for you. If you get lucky and find "your" tub in Gainesville, that is the best case scenario....having a local dealer is indeed important. But settling for a local dealer by buying a tub that does not have suitable therapy is a mistake, IMO. Good luck with your search.

I would no more buy a spa with a built-in sound system than I would buy a sound system with a built-in spa.

Oh.....I see now.....this thread is about fisrt timer.....

...dichlor. I don't understand why some people think that a dichlor routine produces a chemical smell. If one's tub reeks of a chlorine smell, it's long past needing a good shock. And contrary to popular belief (in some circles anyway), a dichlor routine is definitely one of the easiest, if not the easiest, routines to use. Combine dichlor with minerals (i.e., N2 or other mineral filters) and ozone and one's tub will not only look clean and be easy to keep clean, it will also allow one to soak in very little, if any, chemicals.

There seems to be some confusion in this thread regarding evaporation and condensation. If the cover is opened, then indeed a very small, not a "lot", of water that had condensed under the cover will run off. If the cover is open, evaporation of water will take place as the evaporative moisture is release to the atmosphere. Otherwise, condensation is not the issue....evaporation is. Back to your statement, wilfried, that even when the cover is CLOSED, water will be lost by condensation? Absolutely not. If your cover remains closed and you are losing a LOT of water, you better start looking for leaks.

sharkman, Thank you for acknowledging that at least the possibility of up-front, honest MS dealers exist.....I'm sorry that in all the years you've been in the spa business that you've never found one such. Wmartin has covered the event you mentioned very well. I'll be very interested to hear your response to him. It sounds as if you have countless tales of MS impropriety at your disposal. Certainly I won't ask for each and every one but if you would like to share, please feel free. If you would also report on improprieties of other dealers who represent other spa manufacturers in order to give some perspective to our discourse, please do so.......certainly MS dealers aren't the only black holes of the spa universe.....or are they? I really have a problem with this statement: "And for the record Windsurfdog I really dont care how my statements sound." I suggest you rethink your philosophy otherwise your credibility on this forum will suffer.....or do you really not care? My apologies....it seems my statements regarding the rebate program led you to believe that I knew of other spa dealers that participated in the program. Though there may have been, I know of none other. My comment directed to the fact that other retailers in other industries also participated in the program.....that this was not a spa industry specific program. I'll leave you to do the research on the web.....there's plenty. And if not used for fodder, why is it constantly re-dredged by those that want to sling mud at MS? MS made a mistake.......case closed. spatech, I agree with you 100%. Since I am now "in bed" with MS, please trust me to relay any of my experiences with MS in a truthful manner. So far, 1 spinner jet has needed replacement on my spa and my dealer had MS ship me one to my doorstep (though the had other jets in stock, he did not have this one)--received it in about 8 days. I certainly hope this confidence level will continue......for years. I guess I feel no differently about MS at this point than I would any manufacturer from whom I may have purchased a spa. camfam, Wmartin and poollady, Thank you for your posts. I'm not here to insist that MS is the end-all, panacea, or the best thing since sliced bread for the spa industry......I'm merely an MS owner who has had nothing but extremely pleasing experiences with my 1.8 year old LSX and I really feel it would be a mistake to not speak up for a company and its product that has lived up to my expectations. MS spas aren't for everyone just as HS, SD, Marquis, etc. aren't for everyone....it's up to us individually to find the right fit....and MS is my best fit....and I'm not the only one.

Alteriar motive?......do you mean ulterior motive? What makes you think that? fisrt timer laid his cards on the table VERY plainly.......no ulterior or alteriar motives there. Sorry, I don't follow your logic. Indeed, not all MS dealers are "cheesy"....and those that paint with such a broad stroke show their own colors very plainly....glad you are not one of them, sharkman. The only two MS dealers I know are up front and honest business people--I'm very happy with their services and direct customers their way whenever I can. I can tell you this....the WORST spa dealer I've experienced is the local Sundance dealer but I would never think so shallow as to allege that Sundance dealers as a whole are "cheesy" or "smell of macaroni". As for the different complaints and shady deals statement, you might want to deal with facts and specifics rather than making such broad, sweeping allegations....your statement sounds rather libelous to me. Regarding the insurance program/rebate program or whatever it was......since that is no longer in existance and since this program was not limited to MS or even the spa industry (it was much more prevalent in other industries) and since it garnered so much negative publicity, it was a mistake. Now it makes for fodder for those who need it.

Certainly you would attempt to turn him....a possible sale and customer relationship could be developed. Since I'm not trying to develop any relationship at all with fisrt timer, I feel that further discussion is moot considering how strong he is with his opinions about MS. If he showed signs of wanting to participate in a dialog as opposed to a monolog, I'd gladly share a few other considerations. But considerations are all I have to offer.......and if the receiving party refuses to consider another point of view, then so be it.....no harm, no foul, no discussion. The telltale comment that convinced me that fisrt timer would not be willing to dialog was the "cheesiest dealers" comment.....put that with the sprinking of expletives and I think he made his point loud and clear.

True.....but is continued discussion with him warranted when opinions are that strong? Like beating your head against a brick wall.....

Wow.....those are some strong opinions. Obviously a dead end road for discussion. Enjoy.

Absolutely. Water evaporates when the cover is open, water is removed everytime anyone gets out of the spa, kids have a tendency to splash it out.

You know, that's all well and good that Master's advertising wasn't up to your standards. I think, however, for you to label such as "deceptive" is a mistake. I guess you are unfamiliar with advertising practices in general.

imback, I agree with t.u.o.--forget the brittle stuff. Please address my question above.