suek Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 hi- we're looking at a Coleman 351 for $5400. any feedback on Coleman in general (&/or this spa model in particular) is greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 hi- we're looking at a Coleman 351 for $5400. any feedback on Coleman in general (&/or this spa model in particular) is greatly appreciated. That model has the most jets per surface area that Coleman offers. 27 jets, 1 5hp pump, 100% filtration, Lifetime steel frame, thermolock insulation and is very "intimate". That is a really nice tub and is selling for a good price. That retails $5,700 and I'm in NY. Are you getting the lifter and steps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 hi- we're looking at a Coleman 351 for $5400. any feedback on Coleman in general (&/or this spa model in particular) is greatly appreciated. That model has the most jets per surface area that Coleman offers. 27 jets, 1 5hp pump, 100% filtration, Lifetime steel frame, thermolock insulation and is very "intimate". That is a really nice tub and is selling for a good price. That retails $5,700 and I'm in NY. Are you getting the lifter and steps? Sounding a bit sales pitchy......LOL sorry Brulan What does 100% filtration mean? Don't all manufacturers offer lifetime frame? Is thermal lock insulation proven to be better than any other insulation? Jets per surface area...Hmmmmmm small tub huh? Couldn't resist!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104 Degrees Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 hi- we're looking at a Coleman 351 for $5400. any feedback on Coleman in general (&/or this spa model in particular) is greatly appreciated. That model has the most jets per surface area that Coleman offers. 27 jets, 1 5hp pump, 100% filtration, Lifetime steel frame, thermolock insulation and is very "intimate". That is a really nice tub and is selling for a good price. That retails $5,700 and I'm in NY. Are you getting the lifter and steps? Sounding a bit sales pitchy......LOL sorry Brulan What does 100% filtration mean? Don't all manufacturers offer lifetime frame? Is thermal lock insulation proven to be better than any other insulation? Jets per surface area...Hmmmmmm small tub huh? Couldn't resist!!! is thermal lock thermal pane??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 hi- we're looking at a Coleman 351 for $5400. any feedback on Coleman in general (&/or this spa model in particular) is greatly appreciated. That model has the most jets per surface area that Coleman offers. 27 jets, 1 5hp pump, 100% filtration, Lifetime steel frame, thermolock insulation and is very "intimate". That is a really nice tub and is selling for a good price. That retails $5,700 and I'm in NY. Are you getting the lifter and steps? Sounding a bit sales pitchy......LOL sorry Brulan What does 100% filtration mean? Don't all manufacturers offer lifetime frame? Is thermal lock insulation proven to be better than any other insulation? Jets per surface area...Hmmmmmm small tub huh? Couldn't resist!!! is thermal lock thermal pane??? Marketing 101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spamaster101 Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 BS 201 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddieb Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 BS 201 I agree, I just got a new 2007 Coleman 472 Deluxe $7995 in Maryland. The tub did have some Mfg problems a screw head broken, a main panel screw drilled off center. one pices of isulation missing inside the tub. Dealer is addressing the issues as he should but Coleman should have better Quality Control to deal with these little problems. http://home.comcast.net/~ebard66526/tub.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artic Cub Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 I looked at Coleman, you're kidding right? Might as well buy a Hydro Spa......Trying to recall, Coleman is also sold though Home Depot? It's like buying a saturn, good value, gets you where you need to go, Drives like !@#!@ when you sit in it..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sker Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 I looked at Coleman, you're kidding right? Might as well buy a Hydro Spa......Trying to recall, Coleman is also sold though Home Depot? It's like buying a saturn, good value, gets you where you need to go, Drives like !@#!@ when you sit in it..... Tell me what you have against Coleman. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I'm leaning towards a Coleman: -the pumps are 56s that drive all the jets all the time. No diverting water to some of the jets some of the time, like you find in the HS, Sundance, Marquis, etc. The control knobs on the Coleman adjust the amount of air you mix with the water, so you can actually scale back the power of the jet. -not full foam. Argue pros and cons if you want. If it is as energy efficient as a full foam (and there's every indication that it is), why not go with this design to give you at least the OPTION of fixing a leak should it arise. -jets. To put it bluntly, when a Coleman has 35 jets, they are 90 % massage type jets, not the puny "pinpoint" jets the HS, Sundance, etc. have. And since HS, Sundance, etc. are driving their jets with 2 pumps of less HP, they can't possibly power all their jets at once. -all ABS sealed bottom -cabinet seems thicker, more durable to me. -filtration. It actually pulls water from BOTH the bottom and the top. That seems to make sense to me. You won't find it in HS, Sundance or Marquis. -a really good warranty, and an assurance from a Coleman rep that when problems to arise, they take care of them with a no hassle approach. Coleman is a big company, and they can put the screws to their suppliers in ways the small guys can't (to take care of an issue, that, say, doesn't exactly meet the warranty requirements to keep the customer happy). I'm leaning towards Coleman. If you can convince me otherwise, fire away. Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spatech (the unreal one) Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I'm leaning towards a Coleman: -the pumps are 56s that drive all the jets all the time. No diverting water to some of the jets some of the time, like you find in the HS, Sundance, Marquis, etc. The control knobs on the Coleman adjust the amount of air you mix with the water, so you can actually scale back the power of the jet. -not full foam. Argue pros and cons if you want. If it is as energy efficient as a full foam (and there's every indication that it is), why not go with this design to give you at least the OPTION of fixing a leak should it arise. -jets. To put it bluntly, when a Coleman has 35 jets, they are 90 % massage type jets, not the puny "pinpoint" jets the HS, Sundance, etc. have. And since HS, Sundance, etc. are driving their jets with 2 pumps of less HP, they can't possibly power all their jets at once. -all ABS sealed bottom -cabinet seems thicker, more durable to me. -filtration. It actually pulls water from BOTH the bottom and the top. That seems to make sense to me. You won't find it in HS, Sundance or Marquis. -a really good warranty, and an assurance from a Coleman rep that when problems to arise, they take care of them with a no hassle approach. Coleman is a big company, and they can put the screws to their suppliers in ways the small guys can't (to take care of an issue, that, say, doesn't exactly meet the warranty requirements to keep the customer happy). I'm leaning towards Coleman. If you can convince me otherwise, fire away. Rod Your depiction of their filtration, cabinet, insulation (not sure what the indications of its effincy is), jets, etc. being above average are opinions only but you're certainly entitled to them. Also, I wouldn't call Coleman a big spa company. They're not small by any stretch, but not big either (in this industry) as you'd indicated. Some handshake assurance from a rep means no more than anyone elses promise. Based on your e-mail I don't think there is any convincing left to do so go for it. Coleman is a viable choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingSpaGuy Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 Tell me what you have against Coleman. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I'm leaning towards a Coleman: -the pumps are 56s that drive all the jets all the time. No diverting water to some of the jets some of the time, like you find in the HS, Sundance, Marquis, etc. The control knobs on the Coleman adjust the amount of air you mix with the water, so you can actually scale back the power of the jet. -not full foam. Argue pros and cons if you want. If it is as energy efficient as a full foam (and there's every indication that it is), why not go with this design to give you at least the OPTION of fixing a leak should it arise. -jets. To put it bluntly, when a Coleman has 35 jets, they are 90 % massage type jets, not the puny "pinpoint" jets the HS, Sundance, etc. have. And since HS, Sundance, etc. are driving their jets with 2 pumps of less HP, they can't possibly power all their jets at once. -all ABS sealed bottom -cabinet seems thicker, more durable to me. -filtration. It actually pulls water from BOTH the bottom and the top. That seems to make sense to me. You won't find it in HS, Sundance or Marquis. -a really good warranty, and an assurance from a Coleman rep that when problems to arise, they take care of them with a no hassle approach. Coleman is a big company, and they can put the screws to their suppliers in ways the small guys can't (to take care of an issue, that, say, doesn't exactly meet the warranty requirements to keep the customer happy). I'm leaning towards Coleman. If you can convince me otherwise, fire away. This is my first post, I have a backround from service then moved to sales in Colorado but now actually travel the country selling spas at different events from home shows to tent sales and fairs. I sell almost every model so am very familiar with them and prices. I am not a fan of Coleman spas (made by Maxx, not the real Coleman camping company just the rights of the name leased) in select areas...reason being, if the power of your house goes out and its freezing outside you have no way to protect your spa from freezing. The second reason is because San Diego Gas and Electric did a study about 7 years ago showing a full insulated spa costs almost half of an uninsulated model. Will the Coleman cost double of a better insulated model like a Hot Springs or D1 (truely the two most efficent tubs on the market?) probably not double but will cost more. Im sorry but on an engineering stand point there 100% filtration is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Every spa but Hot Springs pulls water from the bottom...but the water you want being cleaned is floating at the top, the skin and hair all on the top. What they are CLAIMING is the intakes at bottom are sent into filter area...well the problem is if this is true you have NO WATER PRESSURE. If Coleman is using a 50 foot filter that means 50 gallons of water per minute will flow through it, the rest is bypassed through the bottom and blown through the jets like everyother tub. Now if the water is sent back to the filter that means it doesnt come from the jets? There are so many holes in this story I laughed my butt off the first time I heard it working at the Del Mar Fair (San Diego's month long hardest to work fair) The frame has a lifetime warranty, thats cool...what about the shell? Frames never fail, its the shells that break sometimes. How about having loose plumbing without the support of foam to prevent leaks? FOR ANY HOT TUB BUYER OUT THERE WHO READS THIS PAY CLOSE ATTENTION- Spa companies have people who try to re-invent the wheel...now if that works better or not they careless...most these companies want something DIFFERENT not better to talk about. If someone spends half an hour explaining something it probably means it doesnt make sense unless a salesman tries really hard to push it through. Steel framing is another thing that doesnt make any difference except its something to talk about. Well this is just one sales guys opinion...if you want the best deal goto a show to buy...only because dealers have to get more competitive. But remember cheaper prices doesnt mean better deals. My opinion you can get a better spa for around the same price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 The second reason is because San Diego Gas and Electric did a study about 7 years ago showing a full insulated spa costs almost half of an uninsulated model. Can you provide any documentation, a link to where this "study" can be found, the phone number of a friends uncles, employers daughter that heard in a restaurant from the table in the corner about this study? Hearsay just doesn't cut it, and this is the first I've ever heard of this study............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sker Posted August 4, 2007 Report Share Posted August 4, 2007 Tell me what you have against Coleman. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I'm leaning towards a Coleman: -the pumps are 56s that drive all the jets all the time. No diverting water to some of the jets some of the time, like you find in the HS, Sundance, Marquis, etc. The control knobs on the Coleman adjust the amount of air you mix with the water, so you can actually scale back the power of the jet. -not full foam. Argue pros and cons if you want. If it is as energy efficient as a full foam (and there's every indication that it is), why not go with this design to give you at least the OPTION of fixing a leak should it arise. -jets. To put it bluntly, when a Coleman has 35 jets, they are 90 % massage type jets, not the puny "pinpoint" jets the HS, Sundance, etc. have. And since HS, Sundance, etc. are driving their jets with 2 pumps of less HP, they can't possibly power all their jets at once. -all ABS sealed bottom -cabinet seems thicker, more durable to me. -filtration. It actually pulls water from BOTH the bottom and the top. That seems to make sense to me. You won't find it in HS, Sundance or Marquis. -a really good warranty, and an assurance from a Coleman rep that when problems to arise, they take care of them with a no hassle approach. Coleman is a big company, and they can put the screws to their suppliers in ways the small guys can't (to take care of an issue, that, say, doesn't exactly meet the warranty requirements to keep the customer happy). I'm leaning towards Coleman. If you can convince me otherwise, fire away. This is my first post, I have a backround from service then moved to sales in Colorado but now actually travel the country selling spas at different events from home shows to tent sales and fairs. I sell almost every model so am very familiar with them and prices. I am not a fan of Coleman spas (made by Maxx, not the real Coleman camping company just the rights of the name leased) in select areas...reason being, if the power of your house goes out and its freezing outside you have no way to protect your spa from freezing. The second reason is because San Diego Gas and Electric did a study about 7 years ago showing a full insulated spa costs almost half of an uninsulated model. Will the Coleman cost double of a better insulated model like a Hot Springs or D1 (truely the two most efficent tubs on the market?) probably not double but will cost more. Im sorry but on an engineering stand point there 100% filtration is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Every spa but Hot Springs pulls water from the bottom...but the water you want being cleaned is floating at the top, the skin and hair all on the top. What they are CLAIMING is the intakes at bottom are sent into filter area...well the problem is if this is true you have NO WATER PRESSURE. If Coleman is using a 50 foot filter that means 50 gallons of water per minute will flow through it, the rest is bypassed through the bottom and blown through the jets like everyother tub. Now if the water is sent back to the filter that means it doesnt come from the jets? There are so many holes in this story I laughed my butt off the first time I heard it working at the Del Mar Fair (San Diego's month long hardest to work fair) The frame has a lifetime warranty, thats cool...what about the shell? Frames never fail, its the shells that break sometimes. How about having loose plumbing without the support of foam to prevent leaks? FOR ANY HOT TUB BUYER OUT THERE WHO READS THIS PAY CLOSE ATTENTION- Spa companies have people who try to re-invent the wheel...now if that works better or not they careless...most these companies want something DIFFERENT not better to talk about. If someone spends half an hour explaining something it probably means it doesnt make sense unless a salesman tries really hard to push it through. Steel framing is another thing that doesnt make any difference except its something to talk about. Well this is just one sales guys opinion...if you want the best deal goto a show to buy...only because dealers have to get more competitive. But remember cheaper prices doesnt mean better deals. My opinion you can get a better spa for around the same price As I said, I'm leaning towards Coleman. Your views are certainly appreciated! And it sounds like you know a lot more about them than me...I'm just a plain 'ole consumer looking for the best price/performance spa. In your opinion what would be a better spa for around the same price? I was quoted $7,499 for teh C 480 92" x 92" Coleman, $6,999 for a C 470/471. I take your advice on freezing to heart. But I guess if an ice storm comes through and the power goes out for more than a couple days, any spa would be screwed. I mean, at some point the water's going to freeze if there's no circulation or heat. The fact that the Coleman might freeze sooner is something to consider, I guess. Question: wouldn't this be covered by my homeowner's insurance policy? I'll have to check on that with my agent. The dealer I talked to about the Coleman also sells D1. He says he sees very little, if any difference in energy costs comparing the two. Our electric rates around here aren't too bad...I don't think it'll be an issue. In the study you quoted, was it a Coleman? Maybe Coleman does a better job at the open insulated concept that some other manufacturers. Filtration: there is a hole in the filter area where water from the floor of the tub enters the filter. A larger volume of water comes from the top through the skimmer area. The Coleman rep I talked to admitted it is not really 100% filtration, but it is very close. I guess I'd have to see the plumbing, but maybe just some of the intakes at the bottom are sent to the filter? True enough...if they were all sent to the filter, there wouldn't be much water coming of the jets, I guess. You said "If Coleman is using a 50 foot filter that means 50 gallons of water per minute will flow through it, the rest is bypassed through the bottom and blown through the jets like everyother tub." Are you talking about when people are actually in the tub? If so, I don't think filtering then is even an issue. You want the water blasting through the jets at that point. It's when the tub sits there unoccupied that the filtering takes place, and that to me is when the thing is running on a "low speed" mode. I would think the filter should be handling whatever water it is being sent through it. Shouldn't the manufacturer have things figured out, to where if it's a 50 gallon a minute rated filter, the pump takes in about 50 gallons a minute and runs it through the filter (take it in through a combination of the skimmer and the lower intakes in the case of Coleman)? Would there be much if any bypass at that point? Maybe a little, and that's why the Coleman rep said it's not really 100%, but very close? You won't convince me that steel framing with an ABS bottom is a bad thing It's not the ONLY thing, and not something maybe to pay extra for...but it doesn't hurt. By the way, the other models I'm considering are: Tiger River Caspian HS Vanguard Sundance Optima Sundance Chelsee D1 Sojourn D1 Nautilus Marquis ? I think a couple of these are beyond what I want to spend, but if they are the "perfect tub", I maybe could be convinced to part with the extra loot. Thanks again! It's been enjoyable to me to learn about these things, and I do appreciate your opinions and input! Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingSpaGuy Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Can you provide any documentation, a link to where this "study" can be found, the phone number of a friends uncles, employers daughter that heard in a restaurant from the table in the corner about this study? Hearsay just doesn't cut it, and this is the first I've ever heard of this study............ I actually have the study done and numbers listed in my sales book, I was given this paper with the sdge stamp and everything on it, im sure you can find it somewhere, I was given it by a dealer in san diego selling d1. Pumps will run close to 200 gls per minute, so about 75% of water through jets are bipassed in one filter spas. Filters will only pull in an average of one gl per sq ft per minute. So 50 sq foot filter, 50 gls per minute. filtering from the bottom is something that is pointless and just something extra to talk about. I still dislike steel framing, its zinc coated until they cut it to size then drill holes in it, where do you live? Is it possible d1 guy is telling you that because the Triad II he is selling is a minimum of 7500, knowing you wont pay 7500 for a 2 person spa he tells you coleman doesnt cost much more? If you can talk the d1 dealer into it see if you can get the nautilus for less then 8500 would be an amazing deal (my lowest here in cali right now is 8800) I have never tried the Sundance Chelsee and dont know how much it changed from when it was called the Bahia but that spa ROCKS also...I would try and Chelsee and Nautilus...I think the Optima is overrated, one good seat really. The Sojourn is an awesome little spa and you can probably get into it for around 6000 if your flexible on color and dont need an ozone (overrated anyway unless on a high end d1 or on hot springs) Vangaurd is nice but I think its overpriced because your not getting alot of power unless you divert pressure to just one seat (hense what I have to do everytime I show a customer the jets) Good luck keep me informed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 Tell me what you have against Coleman. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I'm leaning towards a Coleman: -the pumps are 56s that drive all the jets all the time. No diverting water to some of the jets some of the time, like you find in the HS, Sundance, Marquis, etc. The control knobs on the Coleman adjust the amount of air you mix with the water, so you can actually scale back the power of the jet. -not full foam. Argue pros and cons if you want. If it is as energy efficient as a full foam (and there's every indication that it is), why not go with this design to give you at least the OPTION of fixing a leak should it arise. -jets. To put it bluntly, when a Coleman has 35 jets, they are 90 % massage type jets, not the puny "pinpoint" jets the HS, Sundance, etc. have. And since HS, Sundance, etc. are driving their jets with 2 pumps of less HP, they can't possibly power all their jets at once. -all ABS sealed bottom -cabinet seems thicker, more durable to me. -filtration. It actually pulls water from BOTH the bottom and the top. That seems to make sense to me. You won't find it in HS, Sundance or Marquis. -a really good warranty, and an assurance from a Coleman rep that when problems to arise, they take care of them with a no hassle approach. Coleman is a big company, and they can put the screws to their suppliers in ways the small guys can't (to take care of an issue, that, say, doesn't exactly meet the warranty requirements to keep the customer happy). I'm leaning towards Coleman. If you can convince me otherwise, fire away. This is my first post, I have a backround from service then moved to sales in Colorado but now actually travel the country selling spas at different events from home shows to tent sales and fairs. I sell almost every model so am very familiar with them and prices. I am not a fan of Coleman spas (made by Maxx, not the real Coleman camping company just the rights of the name leased) in select areas...reason being, if the power of your house goes out and its freezing outside you have no way to protect your spa from freezing. The second reason is because San Diego Gas and Electric did a study about 7 years ago showing a full insulated spa costs almost half of an uninsulated model. Will the Coleman cost double of a better insulated model like a Hot Springs or D1 (truely the two most efficent tubs on the market?) probably not double but will cost more. Im sorry but on an engineering stand point there 100% filtration is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Every spa but Hot Springs pulls water from the bottom...but the water you want being cleaned is floating at the top, the skin and hair all on the top. What they are CLAIMING is the intakes at bottom are sent into filter area...well the problem is if this is true you have NO WATER PRESSURE. If Coleman is using a 50 foot filter that means 50 gallons of water per minute will flow through it, the rest is bypassed through the bottom and blown through the jets like everyother tub. Now if the water is sent back to the filter that means it doesnt come from the jets? There are so many holes in this story I laughed my butt off the first time I heard it working at the Del Mar Fair (San Diego's month long hardest to work fair) The frame has a lifetime warranty, thats cool...what about the shell? Frames never fail, its the shells that break sometimes. How about having loose plumbing without the support of foam to prevent leaks? FOR ANY HOT TUB BUYER OUT THERE WHO READS THIS PAY CLOSE ATTENTION- Spa companies have people who try to re-invent the wheel...now if that works better or not they careless...most these companies want something DIFFERENT not better to talk about. If someone spends half an hour explaining something it probably means it doesnt make sense unless a salesman tries really hard to push it through. Steel framing is another thing that doesnt make any difference except its something to talk about. Well this is just one sales guys opinion...if you want the best deal goto a show to buy...only because dealers have to get more competitive. But remember cheaper prices doesnt mean better deals. My opinion you can get a better spa for around the same price From 1985-2002 Coleman had full foam and wood frame and trust me the full foam didn't make it more efficient and that's a fact. In the places where temperatures hit below 0 degrees foam over piping is available. How many states are there extreem climates? The Coleman makes a great spa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 I looked at Coleman, you're kidding right? Might as well buy a Hydro Spa......Trying to recall, Coleman is also sold though Home Depot? It's like buying a saturn, good value, gets you where you need to go, Drives like !@#!@ when you sit in it..... Don't compare a car to a spa. lol Home depot doesn't sell coleman, we put a stop to that really fast. Also, are you having fun putting your jets back in that pop out of that cub every day? lol You sound like your angry at your spa or something. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Spa Posted August 5, 2007 Report Share Posted August 5, 2007 I actually have the study done and numbers listed in my sales book, I was given this paper with the sdge stamp and everything on it, im sure you can find it somewhere, I was given it by a dealer in san diego selling d1. Would you mind faxing it to me? I've looked for actual evidence of some study for years and never come up with anything, 510.234.7910 (write Dr. Spa on it somewhere so I"m sure to get it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saskman Posted August 6, 2007 Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 I am interested in this topic also. A friend is looking at buying a coleman here in Canada. Lets all skip the BS and look at this tub and see if its worth buying, I'm not sure which model he is looking so lets look at the mechanics. What type of insulation does it have, Will it last, Does Coleman take care of their customers ect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted August 6, 2007 Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 I am interested in this topic also. A friend is looking at buying a coleman here in Canada. Lets all skip the BS and look at this tub and see if its worth buying, I'm not sure which model he is looking so lets look at the mechanics. What type of insulation does it have, Will it last, Does Coleman take care of their customers ect They failed here in Northern Minnesota miserably. The dealer may of been partialy to blame but the idea of less insulation to make a more effiecient tub didn't wash. It didn't take people long to figure out the heat source used inside this warm air cavity is gone for the majority of everyday when the unit is not filtering. And filtering more in the fridgid winters to maintain a heat source seemed stupid, uneffiecient, unneeded and caused undo wear on pumps. If 4 hours a day was required to keep clean water that left 20 hours with no heat source to maintain the r-factor required for minumal heat loss. And 20 hours with more heat loss than a comperable FF tub thus more pump and heater kicking on and off to maintain heat. I'm not saying that a properly insulated TP tub won't work, it will. Just not any better than a fully foamed tub. And it seems they get sold as being better and that is deceptive to anyone who knows a little bit about the whole picture, not just the concept of using pump motor heat to create a high R-Factor inside a cabinet air space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sker Posted August 6, 2007 Report Share Posted August 6, 2007 Can you provide any documentation, a link to where this "study" can be found, the phone number of a friends uncles, employers daughter that heard in a restaurant from the table in the corner about this study? Hearsay just doesn't cut it, and this is the first I've ever heard of this study............ I actually have the study done and numbers listed in my sales book, I was given this paper with the sdge stamp and everything on it, im sure you can find it somewhere, I was given it by a dealer in san diego selling d1. Pumps will run close to 200 gls per minute, so about 75% of water through jets are bipassed in one filter spas. Filters will only pull in an average of one gl per sq ft per minute. So 50 sq foot filter, 50 gls per minute. filtering from the bottom is something that is pointless and just something extra to talk about. I still dislike steel framing, its zinc coated until they cut it to size then drill holes in it, where do you live? Is it possible d1 guy is telling you that because the Triad II he is selling is a minimum of 7500, knowing you wont pay 7500 for a 2 person spa he tells you coleman doesnt cost much more? If you can talk the d1 dealer into it see if you can get the nautilus for less then 8500 would be an amazing deal (my lowest here in cali right now is 8800) I have never tried the Sundance Chelsee and dont know how much it changed from when it was called the Bahia but that spa ROCKS also...I would try and Chelsee and Nautilus...I think the Optima is overrated, one good seat really. The Sojourn is an awesome little spa and you can probably get into it for around 6000 if your flexible on color and dont need an ozone (overrated anyway unless on a high end d1 or on hot springs) Vangaurd is nice but I think its overpriced because your not getting alot of power unless you divert pressure to just one seat (hense what I have to do everytime I show a customer the jets) Good luck keep me informed Is 8800 for a new one? My dealer has the floor model white '06 Nautilus for $8,999, but is going to see if he can do a bit better. He said a new '07 would be $10,000. I don't know if anything changed from '06 to '07 to warrant the extra money, but it sounds like I should be asking for a new one for around $9,000, with the chance to choose my own color preferences. By the way, that seems to be a price at which I could get an Optima as well. And I suppose there are a couple of HS and a Caldera at that $9,000 area. If I'm gonna pay nine grand, it better damn well be the best one of the bunch that I choose That $7,125 Chelsee, or $6,400 Sojourn, or $7,000 Caspian are starting to look better all the time. The higher priced ones are giving me a headache. And then there's the issue of this thread: Coleman. I can get the 470 for $7,000 or the 480 for $7,500. And all of this is before any wet-testing has taken place. Do I really have to sit in 8 or 10 different tubs before I make my choice? Jeez...I'll be lucky if I have a tub before Christmas at this rate... Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brulan1 Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 I am interested in this topic also. A friend is looking at buying a coleman here in Canada. Lets all skip the BS and look at this tub and see if its worth buying, I'm not sure which model he is looking so lets look at the mechanics. What type of insulation does it have, Will it last, Does Coleman take care of their customers ect They failed here in Northern Minnesota miserably. The dealer may of been partialy to blame but the idea of less insulation to make a more effiecient tub didn't wash. It didn't take people long to figure out the heat source used inside this warm air cavity is gone for the majority of everyday when the unit is not filtering. And filtering more in the fridgid winters to maintain a heat source seemed stupid, uneffiecient, unneeded and caused undo wear on pumps. If 4 hours a day was required to keep clean water that left 20 hours with no heat source to maintain the r-factor required for minumal heat loss. And 20 hours with more heat loss than a comperable FF tub thus more pump and heater kicking on and off to maintain heat. I'm not saying that a properly insulated TP tub won't work, it will. Just not any better than a fully foamed tub. And it seems they get sold as being better and that is deceptive to anyone who knows a little bit about the whole picture, not just the concept of using pump motor heat to create a high R-Factor inside a cabinet air space. A well designed TP insulation has just as good of an insulation factor as a well designed FF insulation. The only difference is the accessability aspect but 90percent of repairs are made within the main compartment so it is all BS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
104 Degrees Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 A well designed TP insulation has just as good of an insulation factor as a well designed FF insulation. Arctic TP. 104 Degrees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sker Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 If you can talk the d1 dealer into it see if you can get the nautilus for less then 8500 would be an amazing deal (my lowest here in cali right now is 8800) I have never tried the Sundance Chelsee and dont know how much it changed from when it was called the Bahia but that spa ROCKS also...I would try and Chelsee and Nautilus...I think the Optima is overrated, one good seat really. The Sojourn is an awesome little spa and you can probably get into it for around 6000 if your flexible on color and dont need an ozone (overrated anyway unless on a high end d1 or on hot springs) Vangaurd is nice but I think its overpriced because your not getting alot of power unless you divert pressure to just one seat (hense what I have to do everytime I show a customer the jets) Good luck keep me informed An update: I've now wet tested the Coleman 480, D1 Chairman II and Sundance Optima. I'm in a smaller town, and the dealers generally have one or two spas with water. The Sundance dealer has ONLY the Optima on his floor...no chance to even try the Chelsee. But now that I've tried the Optima, I don't know how the Chelsee could impress me. To put it bluntly, I wasn't impressed with the Optima all that much. I liked the science behiind it, I like the fact that there are the small "bubble" jets, and that you can mix air in...with all that stuff going on, and the waterfall and light, it feels like a spa! I like how easy it is to divert water around and change the jets from directional to "twirly" action. But: I didn't really think the jet action was that great overall. I didn't feel comfortable in the "main" seat as it felt like my knees were up in my chest. I'm 6'2" and I'd don't want to feel scrunched in the "main" seat. The Optima really kinda lacked for any neck massage at all, and the foot massage in the bottom was OK, I guess. This dealer has an '05 floor model. Imagine that. An '05 that he's trying to sell me (with stereo) for $9625. New '07 without stereo for $9125 and new '07 with stereo for $10, 225 or something like that. The D1 dealer has an '06 Nautilus that's never been filled priced at $8400, (white lifetime warranty shell, no waterfall feature). I think that's a killer price, and killer is how I would describe the jet action in the Chairman II. I don't think he's going to fill the Nautilus for me to try. Is the Chairman II going to give me an idea of the Nautilus? That sucker was POWERFUL. Almost too powerful. I kept telling him to back it off a bit. I like that it has 2 speed motors. On high with both, all users are going to get a vigorous massage, and if I'm in it alone, I would be directing flow away from my seat just to tone it down a bit. But I liked that the power was there if I needed it. I liked the neck massage it gave, too. The interchangeable jets also appealed to me, and I'll bet there are a couple that I would gravitate to, and maybe even buy to replace the standard twirly ones. Also, I kept struggling with how to change the jets from spraying straight out, to the "twirling" action, and it was downright difficult to turn the big knob that directed water around. And without any air or waterfall it didn't have that bubbly spa feel, just a really powerful blast of jet action. The Coleman 480 felt a lot like the Optima to me. Good (but not great) jet action, easy to adjust them. Just not a vigorous jet action like the Chairman. I plan on wet testing a Marquis Destiny and Epic, and the Hot Springs line, and the Tiger River Caspian. I think I'll get to actually sit in the Epic, Destiny, Vanguard and Caspian. Hard to compare when you can't even try the spa out. I'd like to try the Sojourn and Chelsee, but don't think I'll get to. Marquis has a lower end line with attractive pricing, but no water in those, either. I also have size considerations to worry about, as I have an old spa with a deck around it, so unless I want to re-do a lot of deck I need it to be comparabel, which pretty much rules out a tub like the Grandee. I also want a non-lounger model, but man, the D1 Californian sure looked nice, too. The Marquis dealer is going to maintain a top dollar price. I think I can get competitve deals on the HS line from a reputable dealer. Also, I have electrical considerations: the HS would require running two different 220 lines. I have one 220 running to the current, old tub, and actually paid an electrician to upgrade the guage a couple of months ago (long story, don't wanna repeat it here). The D1 would require relocating my 220 to the left of the tub, not a small task, drilling a new hole through the side of the house, hiring the electrician again. The Sundance prefers a 60 amp service, with only 3 wires, not 4. Comments? Advice? Should I just jump on the '06 Nautilus and call it good? Getting somewhat confused and tired of shopping, any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted August 10, 2007 Report Share Posted August 10, 2007 Comments? Advice? Should I just jump on the '06 Nautilus and call it good? Getting somewhat confused and tired of shopping, any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks! The Dimension One Nautilis is my personal favorite tub. I know that does not help you decide but that is a great price for a tub built by a company that has a great reputaion for dealer support and longevity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterlv Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 I just bought a Coleman 461 deluxe. Main reason I bought is the dealer. They have been in business 20+years. Get high marks from both Coleman and customers. I have heard too many stories of new hot tubs have issues within the first 90 days. If your dealer lacks long term history with a product nor has good reveiws in your community, it does not matter what brand you choose. We actually have been told by so called friend to buy at home depot and save the money. They then complain about getting service. We visited 8 different dealers in our area, most have only 3 to 4 years sales history with a given brand. They will evenmentioned we used to sell brand x. Why did they stop? Our dealer during the sales process let us sit in both am empty and full hot tub. It matters, we are not the same size and shape. They also spent 30 minutes on how to maintain the chemistry etc. Some mentioned MAAX has the manufacturer of Coleman. Funny, the dealer carries MAAX. Coleman and California Copperidge, says all three owned by Coleman, but made are different locations. Also the features and function are very diferent to be the same brand from the same manufacturing plant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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