sker

What exactly is a post bar? Can you describe it? Is it possible to rent one? My pad is below a deck, so it's not the easiest to get at. I used a level on the top sides of the existing, 10-year old tub, and it seems to be level. I am a bit concerned about the erosion. Like I said, it's around the perimeter. I didn't pour the concrete so I don't know if there's any rebar in it. There IS rebar tieing the sidewalk into the side of the house foundation, and this is right next to that sidewalk. It's very even (no noticeable settling) going from the sidewalk to the pad, so there is a chance that there is rebar there. Also, that sidewalk HAS settled a bit, due to this drainage problem that existed. It is sloping away from the house a bit now. I know it has also been undermined, but with the rebar I don't think I'm going to rip it all out and re do it until it starts cracking or deteriorating. Thanks, Rod

I have a question about the pad, also. We bought a house last December that has a hot tub. The house was built in '94, and the date on the hot tub is 1997. So, I believe the pad has been there 10 years. The previous owners had somewhat "let it go", and the gutters were leaking on the back of the house in a way that caused erosion (there is a general slope away from the house) around this area and under the rest of the deck. I've since fixed the problem and have done some grading work so that the runoff water now goes where it's supposed to, and no further erosion will take place in this area. Some dirt around the perimeter of the slab is gone, probably around 2 of the four sides. The slab is at least a foot thick, probably less thick where it meets up with the sidewalk that runs directly next to (parallel) the concrete block foundation of the basement of the house. I'm wondering if this bit of erosion will hurt anything? I had filled the old hot tub, a 91" x 91" Caldera. It held water, and I didn't see any problems. Everything seems level to me, as in, I don't think it is sinking one direction or the other. The erosion probably extends 6 inches, maybe up to a foot or so in places. I jammed some river rock up under the one side I could get to. Once I get the old tub out of there, I can do a better inspection to see if the concrete has any cracks. I don't think I have anything to worry about. Or do I? Got a brand new tub coming in a couple weeks... Thanks, sker

Yesterday I wet tested the following tubs, in this order: Caldera Niagara, HS Vanguard, Tiger River Caspian, HS Grandee, D1 Sojourn, D1 Chairman II. I think I was in each one for about the same length of time, about 15 minutes, probably. I was maybe in the Niagara a bit longer. I moved around from seat to seat in each of them. When I got home, I had that itchy feeling on my back. Drove me nuts, and I drove my wife nuts when I made her scratch it for me! I wonder which one caused it, and whether it was certain jets in a certain seat? I tried to make sure I had the jets on a high volume massage to "see what the tub had", as well as a more medium power and low power. But I wasn't parked in front of any jets for very long in any kind of an "intense" massage. Maybe my skin didn't agree with the water in one of them? Or maybe it was the cumulative effect of sitting in a hot tub for a decent cumulative length of time. Not a very big deal, and there's really no way to know. I've heard that some tubs with smaller jets can cause this. The one I'm leaning towards (Nautilus) has more of the larger type, so maybe I don't have to worry. Just a curious observation. Rod

I'm not a spa tech, or expert. Just a customer choosing a hot tub. There is NO WAY the Optima comes close to the Grandee in size or anything else. There's really only 1 good seat in the Optima. Less jet power. And talk about size. I'm 6' 2", and in every seat in the Optima, I felt like my knees were in my chest. Very hard to get comfortable, unless I extended my legs over the center thing. At that point, I was floating out of the seat. I've wet tested about 15 models now, from various manufacturers. Most without a lounger. The Optima is near the bottom of my list. I DO think they did a good job with the stereo The quality of construction might also be good. But it felt way underpowered to me, with too many small jets. Unless the one I tested was defective, I don't see how anyone would say the Optima has good jet power compared to the other models I've tried (HS Vanguard/Grandee, Caldera Niagra, Coleman 480, Marquis Epic, and 3 D1 models...all had a more powerful feel to me). And that was without the spa guy going around adjusting the jets as I moved from seat to seat. And the Optima is just plain hard to get comfortable in. Just my 2 cents, I guess. Rod

I'm in the same boat: trying to decide among a few different models, and wondering about jets and other things. From my observations so far (with a wet test of the HS line to come tomorrow) the Marquis Epic was nice, but no rotating (I call them rotating, not pulsating) jets. The Sundance Optima, although some of the jets rotated, I didn't think any of them had very much "oomph", although I liked the fact that you could add air into the mix (felt very spa-like with the air, and the small "bubble" jets on). The Colemans had some rotating jets if I remember right, but also didn't seem to have much power. Both of the D1's I tried rank at the top so far. A good variety of jets that can be swapped out easily. I think there are 3 big types, so you can mix and match, probably even order all of the same kind if you are drawn to a certain one. One of the types of big jets just rotates around, and you can adjust it so that it DOESN"T rotate at all, just shoots in a certain, aimable direction. So, lots of versatility there. Even their smaller, rotating jets allow you to turn them on and off (in many spas, the smaller jets are ON only). So again, versatility. But the main difference so far is the power of the massage. I don't know about the deep massage argument from a jet that doesn't rotate. I guess if I wanted that, I could put all of the jet type that you can adjust to not rotate. But, without a good does of water volume and/or pressure, it doesn't really matter if they rotate or not. I didn't feel like the water pressure on the other spas was doing much to my muscles. The D1s seem to me to be a stronger, more powerful action. When I was in the Diplomat, I almost felt like it was too powerful at times. The Nautilus has a variety of jets...good feet jets, one big one in the center that is nice to extend your calf over. The neck jets actually seem like they are DOING somethign rather than running water on your neck. There are four of them, all adjustable on/off, and the neck unit itself goes up and down. The other two types of rotating jets just add to the variety and customization options. And yes, the jets I think are around $20 each, so replacing them (if the bearings wear out) or re-configuring your tub to have more or less of one type of jet can cost money. But again, they are options you don't have in some of the other spas. I'm going to tryou out a Tiger River Caspian, Hot SPrings Grandee and Vanguard tomorrow. Might even try to get to a Caldera dealer. Then, I've done as much wet-testing as I can do without driving 250 miles away. No Artesian dealer around....I would sure love to try out their concept of one pump for one seat...that makes good sense to me. Rod

That's still a crazy-good price. Is it the white shell version? I have a quote for an '06 also. It is a showroom floor model, never been filled. He wants $8,400. Man, do I like your price better Rod

Are you sure? Are you sure that it's a Nautilus? Wow. I've got a price of $8,400 on an '06 Nautilus, without waterfall, and that's considered a great bargain as far as I can tell. If it wasn't a floor model or demo, a good price on a new Nautilus is around $9,000 to near $10,000. Where are you located? Does he have any more? At that price, I'll drive there and buy it myself and haul it home If you get an '07 Nautilus for that price, consider yourself very, very lucky. Rod

If you can talk the d1 dealer into it see if you can get the nautilus for less then 8500 would be an amazing deal (my lowest here in cali right now is 8800) I have never tried the Sundance Chelsee and dont know how much it changed from when it was called the Bahia but that spa ROCKS also...I would try and Chelsee and Nautilus...I think the Optima is overrated, one good seat really. The Sojourn is an awesome little spa and you can probably get into it for around 6000 if your flexible on color and dont need an ozone (overrated anyway unless on a high end d1 or on hot springs) Vangaurd is nice but I think its overpriced because your not getting alot of power unless you divert pressure to just one seat (hense what I have to do everytime I show a customer the jets) Good luck keep me informed An update: I've now wet tested the Coleman 480, D1 Chairman II and Sundance Optima. I'm in a smaller town, and the dealers generally have one or two spas with water. The Sundance dealer has ONLY the Optima on his floor...no chance to even try the Chelsee. But now that I've tried the Optima, I don't know how the Chelsee could impress me. To put it bluntly, I wasn't impressed with the Optima all that much. I liked the science behiind it, I like the fact that there are the small "bubble" jets, and that you can mix air in...with all that stuff going on, and the waterfall and light, it feels like a spa! I like how easy it is to divert water around and change the jets from directional to "twirly" action. But: I didn't really think the jet action was that great overall. I didn't feel comfortable in the "main" seat as it felt like my knees were up in my chest. I'm 6'2" and I'd don't want to feel scrunched in the "main" seat. The Optima really kinda lacked for any neck massage at all, and the foot massage in the bottom was OK, I guess. This dealer has an '05 floor model. Imagine that. An '05 that he's trying to sell me (with stereo) for $9625. New '07 without stereo for $9125 and new '07 with stereo for $10, 225 or something like that. The D1 dealer has an '06 Nautilus that's never been filled priced at $8400, (white lifetime warranty shell, no waterfall feature). I think that's a killer price, and killer is how I would describe the jet action in the Chairman II. I don't think he's going to fill the Nautilus for me to try. Is the Chairman II going to give me an idea of the Nautilus? That sucker was POWERFUL. Almost too powerful. I kept telling him to back it off a bit. I like that it has 2 speed motors. On high with both, all users are going to get a vigorous massage, and if I'm in it alone, I would be directing flow away from my seat just to tone it down a bit. But I liked that the power was there if I needed it. I liked the neck massage it gave, too. The interchangeable jets also appealed to me, and I'll bet there are a couple that I would gravitate to, and maybe even buy to replace the standard twirly ones. Also, I kept struggling with how to change the jets from spraying straight out, to the "twirling" action, and it was downright difficult to turn the big knob that directed water around. And without any air or waterfall it didn't have that bubbly spa feel, just a really powerful blast of jet action. The Coleman 480 felt a lot like the Optima to me. Good (but not great) jet action, easy to adjust them. Just not a vigorous jet action like the Chairman. I plan on wet testing a Marquis Destiny and Epic, and the Hot Springs line, and the Tiger River Caspian. I think I'll get to actually sit in the Epic, Destiny, Vanguard and Caspian. Hard to compare when you can't even try the spa out. I'd like to try the Sojourn and Chelsee, but don't think I'll get to. Marquis has a lower end line with attractive pricing, but no water in those, either. I also have size considerations to worry about, as I have an old spa with a deck around it, so unless I want to re-do a lot of deck I need it to be comparabel, which pretty much rules out a tub like the Grandee. I also want a non-lounger model, but man, the D1 Californian sure looked nice, too. The Marquis dealer is going to maintain a top dollar price. I think I can get competitve deals on the HS line from a reputable dealer. Also, I have electrical considerations: the HS would require running two different 220 lines. I have one 220 running to the current, old tub, and actually paid an electrician to upgrade the guage a couple of months ago (long story, don't wanna repeat it here). The D1 would require relocating my 220 to the left of the tub, not a small task, drilling a new hole through the side of the house, hiring the electrician again. The Sundance prefers a 60 amp service, with only 3 wires, not 4. Comments? Advice? Should I just jump on the '06 Nautilus and call it good? Getting somewhat confused and tired of shopping, any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

I actually have the study done and numbers listed in my sales book, I was given this paper with the sdge stamp and everything on it, im sure you can find it somewhere, I was given it by a dealer in san diego selling d1. Pumps will run close to 200 gls per minute, so about 75% of water through jets are bipassed in one filter spas. Filters will only pull in an average of one gl per sq ft per minute. So 50 sq foot filter, 50 gls per minute. filtering from the bottom is something that is pointless and just something extra to talk about. I still dislike steel framing, its zinc coated until they cut it to size then drill holes in it, where do you live? Is it possible d1 guy is telling you that because the Triad II he is selling is a minimum of 7500, knowing you wont pay 7500 for a 2 person spa he tells you coleman doesnt cost much more? If you can talk the d1 dealer into it see if you can get the nautilus for less then 8500 would be an amazing deal (my lowest here in cali right now is 8800) I have never tried the Sundance Chelsee and dont know how much it changed from when it was called the Bahia but that spa ROCKS also...I would try and Chelsee and Nautilus...I think the Optima is overrated, one good seat really. The Sojourn is an awesome little spa and you can probably get into it for around 6000 if your flexible on color and dont need an ozone (overrated anyway unless on a high end d1 or on hot springs) Vangaurd is nice but I think its overpriced because your not getting alot of power unless you divert pressure to just one seat (hense what I have to do everytime I show a customer the jets) Good luck keep me informed Is 8800 for a new one? My dealer has the floor model white '06 Nautilus for $8,999, but is going to see if he can do a bit better. He said a new '07 would be $10,000. I don't know if anything changed from '06 to '07 to warrant the extra money, but it sounds like I should be asking for a new one for around $9,000, with the chance to choose my own color preferences. By the way, that seems to be a price at which I could get an Optima as well. And I suppose there are a couple of HS and a Caldera at that $9,000 area. If I'm gonna pay nine grand, it better damn well be the best one of the bunch that I choose That $7,125 Chelsee, or $6,400 Sojourn, or $7,000 Caspian are starting to look better all the time. The higher priced ones are giving me a headache. And then there's the issue of this thread: Coleman. I can get the 470 for $7,000 or the 480 for $7,500. And all of this is before any wet-testing has taken place. Do I really have to sit in 8 or 10 different tubs before I make my choice? Jeez...I'll be lucky if I have a tub before Christmas at this rate... Rod

This is my first post, I have a backround from service then moved to sales in Colorado but now actually travel the country selling spas at different events from home shows to tent sales and fairs. I sell almost every model so am very familiar with them and prices. I am not a fan of Coleman spas (made by Maxx, not the real Coleman camping company just the rights of the name leased) in select areas...reason being, if the power of your house goes out and its freezing outside you have no way to protect your spa from freezing. The second reason is because San Diego Gas and Electric did a study about 7 years ago showing a full insulated spa costs almost half of an uninsulated model. Will the Coleman cost double of a better insulated model like a Hot Springs or D1 (truely the two most efficent tubs on the market?) probably not double but will cost more. Im sorry but on an engineering stand point there 100% filtration is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. Every spa but Hot Springs pulls water from the bottom...but the water you want being cleaned is floating at the top, the skin and hair all on the top. What they are CLAIMING is the intakes at bottom are sent into filter area...well the problem is if this is true you have NO WATER PRESSURE. If Coleman is using a 50 foot filter that means 50 gallons of water per minute will flow through it, the rest is bypassed through the bottom and blown through the jets like everyother tub. Now if the water is sent back to the filter that means it doesnt come from the jets? There are so many holes in this story I laughed my butt off the first time I heard it working at the Del Mar Fair (San Diego's month long hardest to work fair) The frame has a lifetime warranty, thats cool...what about the shell? Frames never fail, its the shells that break sometimes. How about having loose plumbing without the support of foam to prevent leaks? FOR ANY HOT TUB BUYER OUT THERE WHO READS THIS PAY CLOSE ATTENTION- Spa companies have people who try to re-invent the wheel...now if that works better or not they careless...most these companies want something DIFFERENT not better to talk about. If someone spends half an hour explaining something it probably means it doesnt make sense unless a salesman tries really hard to push it through. Steel framing is another thing that doesnt make any difference except its something to talk about. Well this is just one sales guys opinion...if you want the best deal goto a show to buy...only because dealers have to get more competitive. But remember cheaper prices doesnt mean better deals. My opinion you can get a better spa for around the same price As I said, I'm leaning towards Coleman. Your views are certainly appreciated! And it sounds like you know a lot more about them than me...I'm just a plain 'ole consumer looking for the best price/performance spa. In your opinion what would be a better spa for around the same price? I was quoted $7,499 for teh C 480 92" x 92" Coleman, $6,999 for a C 470/471. I take your advice on freezing to heart. But I guess if an ice storm comes through and the power goes out for more than a couple days, any spa would be screwed. I mean, at some point the water's going to freeze if there's no circulation or heat. The fact that the Coleman might freeze sooner is something to consider, I guess. Question: wouldn't this be covered by my homeowner's insurance policy? I'll have to check on that with my agent. The dealer I talked to about the Coleman also sells D1. He says he sees very little, if any difference in energy costs comparing the two. Our electric rates around here aren't too bad...I don't think it'll be an issue. In the study you quoted, was it a Coleman? Maybe Coleman does a better job at the open insulated concept that some other manufacturers. Filtration: there is a hole in the filter area where water from the floor of the tub enters the filter. A larger volume of water comes from the top through the skimmer area. The Coleman rep I talked to admitted it is not really 100% filtration, but it is very close. I guess I'd have to see the plumbing, but maybe just some of the intakes at the bottom are sent to the filter? True enough...if they were all sent to the filter, there wouldn't be much water coming of the jets, I guess. You said "If Coleman is using a 50 foot filter that means 50 gallons of water per minute will flow through it, the rest is bypassed through the bottom and blown through the jets like everyother tub." Are you talking about when people are actually in the tub? If so, I don't think filtering then is even an issue. You want the water blasting through the jets at that point. It's when the tub sits there unoccupied that the filtering takes place, and that to me is when the thing is running on a "low speed" mode. I would think the filter should be handling whatever water it is being sent through it. Shouldn't the manufacturer have things figured out, to where if it's a 50 gallon a minute rated filter, the pump takes in about 50 gallons a minute and runs it through the filter (take it in through a combination of the skimmer and the lower intakes in the case of Coleman)? Would there be much if any bypass at that point? Maybe a little, and that's why the Coleman rep said it's not really 100%, but very close? You won't convince me that steel framing with an ABS bottom is a bad thing It's not the ONLY thing, and not something maybe to pay extra for...but it doesn't hurt. By the way, the other models I'm considering are: Tiger River Caspian HS Vanguard Sundance Optima Sundance Chelsee D1 Sojourn D1 Nautilus Marquis ? I think a couple of these are beyond what I want to spend, but if they are the "perfect tub", I maybe could be convinced to part with the extra loot. Thanks again! It's been enjoyable to me to learn about these things, and I do appreciate your opinions and input! Rod

Tell me what you have against Coleman. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I'm leaning towards a Coleman: -the pumps are 56s that drive all the jets all the time. No diverting water to some of the jets some of the time, like you find in the HS, Sundance, Marquis, etc. The control knobs on the Coleman adjust the amount of air you mix with the water, so you can actually scale back the power of the jet. -not full foam. Argue pros and cons if you want. If it is as energy efficient as a full foam (and there's every indication that it is), why not go with this design to give you at least the OPTION of fixing a leak should it arise. -jets. To put it bluntly, when a Coleman has 35 jets, they are 90 % massage type jets, not the puny "pinpoint" jets the HS, Sundance, etc. have. And since HS, Sundance, etc. are driving their jets with 2 pumps of less HP, they can't possibly power all their jets at once. -all ABS sealed bottom -cabinet seems thicker, more durable to me. -filtration. It actually pulls water from BOTH the bottom and the top. That seems to make sense to me. You won't find it in HS, Sundance or Marquis. -a really good warranty, and an assurance from a Coleman rep that when problems to arise, they take care of them with a no hassle approach. Coleman is a big company, and they can put the screws to their suppliers in ways the small guys can't (to take care of an issue, that, say, doesn't exactly meet the warranty requirements to keep the customer happy). I'm leaning towards Coleman. If you can convince me otherwise, fire away. Rod

The Marquis seems a little plain-jane to me. No pillows (not that it is a deal-breaker). And the cabinet seemed a little "cheap" to me compared to, say a D1 where you can "feel" the thickness. Their filtration philosophy is a bit different...the pumps run occasionally, but when they do it is a more "vigorous" filtration. They think it does a better job of filtering WHEN it actually filters. I'm kinda partial to the models that have their own circulation pump...makes more sense to me to have a pump that is inteded just for filtration running at a low speed, rather than having one pump pull double duty. One salesmen said that he didn't think the Marquis stacks up with the D1, Sundance or Hot Springs in overall quality, but to each his own, I guess. I do know that I just don't see the "premium" price tag my local Marquis dealer has attached to his tubs. The warranty does seem good. A HS dealer I talked to also talked up the fact that HS is very, very good at handling warranty claims and issues...unlike some other companies which will try to weasel their way out and use excuses to not fix an issue. Rod

That's what I thought. I just visited the local D1 dealer. Sojourn/Wayfarer $6,399. The only D1 spa I could fit in my space without a lot of hassle is the Aurora II. They have it for $7,999. The Coleman C-470 is around $7,000 (I can't be sure because they were at the local fair and took this model with them...they person watching the store didn't know the price exactly). It sound like on all of these I might be able to work a slightly better price. Do these sound better? I think this particular local dealer can be trusted in the are of service after the sale. By the way, I also talked to the HS dealer in the next closest city. My suspicions were correct: he has the Caspian for $7,400 delivered, including ozone, lift, steps, cover, set up, chemicals. $8,500 for similarly equipped Vanguard. The salesman there didn't seem to know anything about any HS rebates. Are they for real? So these are the normal, everyday price without any "rebates" and they beat my local dealer substantially. So the question is: go with a D1 or Coleman from local dealer, if the price is right. Or with a HS from a dealer 80 miles away (the price does seem right, and from talking to them, they WILL back me up with service...I'd just have to pay a bit of mileage for service visits). I'm in a smaller city in the Midwest, pop 100,000. Things are wide open out here:) So the next closest HS dealers are about 80 and 100 miles away. I think I'll wet test the Tiger Caspian, HS Vanguard, Coleman 470, D1 Sojourn. Even though I'm leaning against a lounger, I might also try the Coleman 471, and the D1 Aurora II. Once decided on the tub, then I'll study the best price/performance/service bang for the buck. Any input is appreciated! Thanks! Rod

I'm looking for a spa in the 84" size, probably without lounger. Foot massage is a priority for the wife. For me, I have a problem back, so good back therapy is necessary. Don't need a stereo...although the Spaudio looks really cool...but way to pricey. I'm a fan of the lighting, but not a huge priority. My local dealers carry Marquis, Hot Springs, Nordic, Garden Leisure, Coleman, D1 and Sundance. A Caldera dealer is 70 miles away, and if I go 100 miles away there are a few more choices. I have a quote for a Tiger Caspian as follows: $8630 includes cover, delivery, setup, chems, ground fault breakers, plus $299 for cover lift (CoverMateII), plus $399 for purification, inc...total of $9,228. Same items in Vangaurd would be $10,196 (ozone is included on Vanguard, though). Does this sound like too much? It's a local dealer, good rep for having service techs who know what they are doing, but they are a little "slow to respond" in some other areas, and looks like they are not very price competitive, and didn't really want to haggle at all...kind of "this is our price, take it or leave it" attitude. What's a guy to do who wants a Hot Springs, but the local dealer is too pricey? Next Hot Springs dealer is 100 miles away. Hot Springs has rebates right now that would bring it down a bit, but I'd like to start at a decent price and THEN get the rebate. I've yet to visit the D1 dealer, who also has Coleman. It looks like a D1 Wayfarer or Sojourn would be ones to consider...the other D1s might be too large. The Sundance dealer is a one-person operation who doesn't keep very friendly store hours and only has one spa on display. I'm probably going to avoid Garden Leisure and the Nordics all look too plain-jane for me. I've also been to the local Marquis dealer. I've actually been a customer for some pool related things and feel pretty comfortable with them. But again, pricing seems to be at the high end...much more than most of the prices quoted on this forum (by a $1,000 or more). By the way, I'm in a market where I don't think there should be any reason that prices are higher. Overhead for doing business here is a lot less than most other parts of the country. I know you get what you pay for generally, but I don't want to overpay, either. I haven't wet tested any yet...I'm trying to get a handle on price, first. I don't want to get my heart set on a model during wet testing knowing that I can't wrangle a good price out of the dealer. What to do? Should I call the Hot Springs/Marquis dealer in the next closest city to me to see if they can do better on price? Any thoughts? Thanks, Rod