Jersey Hot Tub Repair Posted November 26, 2017 Report Share Posted November 26, 2017 Two months ago, we got a call from a homeowner with a Master Spa tripping his breakers. Testing indicated it was a problem with his Laing E14 circ pump. We replaced the pump and the spa worked. Homeowner called last week, same problem. Testing showed the E14 was tripping the breaker so we replaced it at no charge. During our conversation, the customer told the tech this was the 5th replacement he's needed - the tub is 5 years old. The first 3 replacements were done by the dealer as warranty work, with some mumbled excuse that they must have gotten a bad batch of motors. Then they suggested the mineral cartridge was the problem. My supplier tells me there is an un-proven but apparent link between circuit pump issues and mineral cartridges. Of course, the mineral cartridge manufacturers disagree. Since 70-80% of the hot tubs out there are using mineral cartriges with no problem, I'm skeptical on that claim. The customer has city water, so I'm not thinking it has so many minerals that it's damaging the pumps. Field testing of the circuit board in the Balboa pac showed the proper voltages at the connectors. Has anyone here encountered a similar situation, either with Master Spas, circuit pumps and/or mineral cartridges? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castletonia Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 I personally haven't seen any correlation between the two, but it makes sense. Restrict the flow of water and the pump is working harder. I would think that there would be "flo" errors if that was happening, though. Maybe it has something to do with how Master plumbs their hot tubs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RebeccaPalmer Posted November 29, 2017 Report Share Posted November 29, 2017 I have never encountered the similar situation, but I am sure that there is a certain solution can be always found! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanji Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 I know this is an old topic, but I thought it could be interested for those with a similar problem. I have an Artesian Spa Platinum Elite, with an E14 Laing pump for circulation, and in 4 years, this is the 3rd failure I had with this model. It always start with a stronger noise, followed by episodes when the pump can't turn on - and the heating stops, which is really convenient in winter - until eventually the breakers are clearly saying : "Stop"... I opened 2 of those pumps. It appears that the pump is using a magnetic system, and the magnet itself - which should be protected from the water - was rusted on those 2 pumps. My water is extremely hard, but there was no trace of problem coming from that. I simply think that the pump's design is EXTREMELY poor, and that this is an expensive - but low quality - material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Those pumps were designed for closed heat exchanger systems running antifreeze heat exchanger fluids with no ph issues, no caustic chemicals, and no debris. Under those circumstances they last forever, never leak, and cost next to nothing to run. Throw in bad balance, high sanitizer (especially for those with floaters that end up in the filter well), calcium accumulation, and debris suck as leaf fragments, hair, hard water flakes inside the pipes, strings from cut-off shorts, ect., and they don't last long at all. There is no physical connection between the impeller (fan blades of the pump) and the motor, the impeller "floats" on a ceramic ball held in place and turned by a magnetic field. Any imbalance, even a hair, will cause the impeller to wobble, the noise you heard, and eventually lock up. Then it is a short trip to a fried motor. Some spa filter designs are more susceptible to debris entering the circulation system. Some customers maintain their spas differently than others. Some people have long hair. Some people bring their labrador in with them... You get the point. That is why alot of manufacturers are going back to normal pumps for circulation. Fractional horsepower pumps, with seals that leak, pushing the heater, ozone injection, etc... They aren't destroyed by 2 long hairs and a bit of bad chemistry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanji Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Thanks for your comment. In my case there is a clear and repetitive rusting issue with the part linked to the propeller - likely iron - which is protect by à think layer of metal, disappearing overtime. Not sure how I can post pictures of that part. Is anyone aware of a pump replacement from another maker? Thanks and best regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 I know what you are talking about. All the small magnetic drive pumps are the same. Laing is the most popular, grundfos is a less reliable but earlier used brand. If I were charging you $95 to pull in your driveway, I would be discussing water chemistry with you. I have seen those pumps last a decade in a spa, so I promise it is not the pump. If it is corroding, your water is corroding it. I am sure you think you do a great job with your water, everyone thinks they do a great job with their water because they spend time and money on it. The truth is, most people do a horrible job 6 days a week, and believe that a once-a-week treatment will undo 6 days of bad chemistry. It won't. If you want your pumps (and the rest of your equipment) to last, I recommend you maintain a balanced ph, not just get it right once a week. It will help if you do not use tablets. Use dichlor granules, they are ph neutral. Keep your alkalinity around 100. Don't use mps or potassium shock, it is very high ph. Use dichlor to shock. Don't use any unnecessary chemicals, clarifiers, borate, scents, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanji Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 1 hour ago, RDspaguy said: If I were charging you $95 to pull in your driveway, I would be discussing water chemistry with you. I would take such an offer, but being in Europe, the overall cost might be too high By no mean am I a spa specialist, but I have some quite good knowledge on water chemistry - thanks to a Ph. D. in chemistry... I agree that the material is corroded by the water, but if this is happening although my pH has always been between 6.4 and 7.8, then I still believe that pump is crappy... I use a home-made chlorine dioxide (after buying the mixture in the past, which has the inconvenience of requiring pH adjustment); my chlorine dioxide is pH neutral, and because my water is really hard, there is little variation of the pH over time. When I measure the pH, I do it in my lab, so the result should be realible; but clearly I do not monitor every day. I also use small quantities of a product called SpaBalancer, which is effective in maintaining the quality of the water. I am not questioning the fact that you can always do better with the water control, but the material should be able to handle some minimal changes in the water. After all, this is a spa... And clearly, I will welcome any advice. If I understand you, changing the pump for another brand would not help, right? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 Another brand of the same type/ dimensions will be no better. You can put in a traditional style pump, meaning with a shaft and seal, but they are a bit bigger and that can be an issue in some spas. https://www.spadepot.com/Waterway-Tiny-Might-Circulating-Pump-1-MBT12S-120V-P710C300.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted March 28, 2020 Report Share Posted March 28, 2020 You will have to make some minor plumbing changes, which are easy if you have room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanji Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 @RDspaguy, if I may borrow a little bit more of your knowledge... How about using a pump like the WE14 LX... https://www.hottubdiy.co.uk/lx-we14.html It surely won't be better, but at least it is more affordable if this becomes a consumable. Do you think it is a bad idea? Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSpaTech Posted March 30, 2020 Report Share Posted March 30, 2020 LX Chinese made metric pump. Almost impossible to get parts for here in North America. If I were switching I would be using an Iron Might pump but you might have to make changes to the plumbing to get everything to line up.. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 Masters spas had a whole bunch of different circulation pumps over the years. Can you post a picture of yours? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 5 hours ago, CanadianSpaTech said: LX Chinese made metric pump. Almost impossible to get parts for here in North America. If I were switching I would be using an Iron Might pump but you might have to make changes to the plumbing to get everything to line up.. JMO And a good opinion it is. Unless chinese parts are easy to come by wherever you are in Europe, the Iron might is a good option. Masters used them, or one just like it, in other spas. They do have approximately 2.5 times the amp draw as the laing, but the board should be fine. They also have a shaft seal which will wear out and leak, fairly frequently because it runs all the time. This is why they used laing pumps. But that is a simple job if you catch it right away. Let it leak for a few months, and it becomes a disposable just like the laing. Bad balance will speed this up, so keep your alkalinity around 100ppm and your ph near 7.4-7.6. Do not keep a high sanitizer residual, 1-2ppm is sufficient for most private spas, unless everyone in town hangs out in your hot-tub. Where are you located, if you don't mind me asking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanji Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 33 minutes ago, RDspaguy said: Where are you located, if you don't mind me asking? Of course not. In Switzerland. So access to spare parts is limited - I almost have to order everything from abroad as local supply is either inexistant or extremely expensive (to give you an idea, I bought my last Laing E14 locally for around US$ 400...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 Ouch! From the look of things, the pump you were looking at will do the trick. You may have to cut and splice the plug or change the cord, but it should manage. Flow rate claims to be the same as the iron might, but at 2/3 the amp draw I am sceptical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 Switzerland sounds nice. I live in Missouri, in the midwest, tornado alley. I spent a few years in Tahoe, in the Sierra Nevada range of California, and a few in Boulder Colorado. Love the mountains! Hate the cold! And being unable to find the customers spa in the snow, because it was deeper than the spa, or the tech, is tall. Don't miss that. But I do miss the mountain views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanji Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 23 minutes ago, RDspaguy said: I spent a few years in Tahoe, in the Sierra Nevada range of California, and a few in Boulder Colorado. Love the mountains! Hate the cold! Nice places, too! But yes you really get snow there... I still have the feeling that often spas are not designed to function in really cold weather - I use mine a lot in winter, but there really should be a way to prevent the spa from freezing when there is a heating problem. Having an automated procedure to simply turn on all the pumps every hour if heating is malfunctioning would be smart. Then my spa is 12 years old, perhaps such option exists in newer installation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 Your spa has freeze protection. If the water in the heater drops below 45*f the pumps will turn on and the display will show "ICE". This doesn't help if your breaker trips. In Tahoe it was standard practice to run an additional 20a circuit to the spa and plug in a thermostat controlled space heater under the cabinet. Then if your breaker trips your space heater keeps it from freezing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Hot Tub Repair Posted March 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 17 hours ago, sanji said: @RDspaguy, if I may borrow a little bit more of your knowledge... How about using a pump like the WE14 LX... https://www.hottubdiy.co.uk/lx-we14.html It surely won't be better, but at least it is more affordable if this becomes a consumable. Do you think it is a bad idea? Thanks again! I'm not a big fan of the LX pumps. Several major manufacturers have changed to various LX models because they are cheaper than the North American made pumps. I have been replacing them in spas that are less than 6 months old. The ceramic seals on the motor shafts seem to have a fairly high failure rate. I guess if the cost is 50% less and the failure rate is 10% higher, it's worth it for a manufacturer to use cheap parts. I spoke with several techs at the Atlantic City Pool & Spa show this past January and most are reporting similar observations, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanji Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 17 minutes ago, Jersey Hot Tub Repair said: I'm not a big fan of the LX pumps. Several major manufacturers have changed to various LX models because they are cheaper than the North American made pumps. Thanks Jersey Hot Tub Repair for your comment. RDspaguy already mentioned I probably was having issues with my water from time to time, but as I wrote above, I had 3 failures with Laing pumps in 5 years. This is really too much for me, so I am willing to give a shot to another maker... Laing pumps cost around 400 US$ in Switzerland, so this is really driving the cost of the spa high! Thanks to all of you for those useful advices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted March 31, 2020 Report Share Posted March 31, 2020 Best of luck. Be safe over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyoscott Posted September 28, 2022 Report Share Posted September 28, 2022 Those Laing circulating pumps are junk. And none available to purchase. Ridiculous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDspaguy Posted September 28, 2022 Report Share Posted September 28, 2022 I love how everyone bashes laing pumps. I've seen them last 10 years in a spa, and much longer in a closed system like they were made for. Find another pump that can run 24/7 at a fraction of a hp for years on end in your spa without issues. I'll wait. Some spas go through them faster, which seems to me to be a spa design issue, but I couldn't say why this spa holds up and that one doesn't. The blame isn't on the pump, but the people who use it in unintended ways without sufficient design testing and improvement. But poor maintenance is the #1 cause of circ pump failure. Take apart a bad circ pump and you almost always find scale, corrosion, or debris in the housing/ impeller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanji Posted July 18, 2023 Report Share Posted July 18, 2023 Just wanted to update everyone... after more than 3 years, my LX WE14 is still working fine. It is slightly bigger than the original Laing pump, but honestly I am very happy I had no failure since I changed it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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