The Meaning Of Horsepower

[Paul]

I have a question:

Sundance Optima has 2 pumps at 2.5 HP continuous/3.9 break, and a third pump for the air jets at 1.5 HP

Master advertises the 800 and LSX having two 6.0 HP pumps and a third 4.5 HP pump (for the airjets, i assume). I also assume these are not continuous horsepower figures, and can't find those specs on the Master website. Does anyone know the continuous HP numbers for the Master 800/LSX pumps?

Also, someone told me that the advantage of the smaller 3rd pump in the SD is that it's much quieter, whereas the advantage of the more powerful 3rd jet in the Master is stronger jets from more force of air. Any opinions on that one?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, wisdom and experience

[Jim_The_Jim]

I have a question:

Sundance Optima has 2 pumps at 2.5 HP continuous/3.9 break, and a third pump for the air jets at 1.5 HP

Master advertises the 800 and LSX having two 6.0 HP pumps and a third 4.5 HP pump (for the airjets, i assume). I also assume these are not continuous horsepower figures, and can't find those specs on the Master website. Does anyone know the continuous HP numbers for the Master 800/LSX pumps?

Also, someone told me that the advantage of the smaller 3rd pump in the SD is that it's much quieter, whereas the advantage of the more powerful 3rd jet in the Master is stronger jets from more force of air. Any opinions on that one?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, wisdom and experience

The horsepower game is one of the most deceptive that I have ever seen. I have been a student of electricity and electronics for nearly 48 years, since I was a youngster.

Horsepower is a measurment of work over time. The original meanig was some many feet of rise by a horse over a period of time. Hence "horse power".

The real meaning is work. Standard Horse power is 748 watts of energy used at the motor shaft.

The use of brake horse power and peak starting horsepower is one of the "bad" things used in sales.

The first time I saw a 48 frame pump with a "5 HP" tag on it was at the Denver Home and Garden show on a Charisma spa in 1996 as best as I can recall. I asked the fellow: "how is that possible". He confided in me that it was peak starting torque brake HP, otherwise known as "advertising HP". I simply call it BS HP.

One of the ways for a consumer to judge the power of the motors is to look at the voltage and the amperage rating of the motors. There are two frame sizes on the motors as well and there are four main brands of motors. A.O. Smith, Franklin, Emerson, and GE. Most commercial pumps use A.O. Smith or Franklin.

The pumps are also rated in GPM, "gallons per minute" of water flow. However, the flow rate of the pump is also illusive, becasue of the screwy plumbing systems used on spas that waste the pumps energy in too many turns and diverter valves that are improperly installed. If you have a 180 GPM pump and it is putting out 130 GPM at the jets, that is not good use of horsepower.

The cleaner the plumbing is the more water to the jets. The more efficient the horse power and energy is used.

There are also power or enrgy ratings on pumps based upon a combination of water pressure and the GPM.

A higher pressure with 180 GPM gives stronger therapy than 230GPM at a lower pressure, simply because of the force created by the pressure is part of the "power at the jets".

I hope that you are now completely educated and even more confused.

I have spent the better part of 6 years in study of centrifugal pumps, jets, and how to get the most powerful and effective therapy in a spa. It is what I do.

If you can get the make and model of the pumps used, you can get the specification sheets from the manufacture to show you how the pump actually works. Most of it is on line or in a catalog you can get.

[Chas]

I have been in this biz for two decades, and I have told thousands of folks this: the numbers on the brochure mean nothing. Nothing.

Wet testing is the only reliable way to see if the spa you are considering will provide the massage action you are looking for. If you can't or won't get into a spa in a store, try a friend's tub, or at the very least put your hand and arm in a hot, running tub similar to the one you are looking at.

Different makers use different numbers. Different pumps move more water than others. Different plumbing schemes allow more or less water to move, and different jets provide different feel for the same amount of water moving through them.

Friends don't let friends shop by HP numbers on a brochure or web site.

If you can't see the tub running, be careful.

[hottub.pool_boy]

I'm with chas.

go feel the jets.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I have been in this biz for two decades, and I have told thousands of folks this: the numbers on the brochure mean nothing. Nothing.

Wet testing is the only reliable way to see if the spa you are considering will provide the massage action you are looking for. If you can't or won't get into a spa in a store, try a friend's tub, or at the very least put your hand and arm in a hot, running tub similar to the one you are looking at.

Different makers use different numbers. Different pumps move more water than others. Different plumbing schemes allow more or less water to move, and different jets provide different feel for the same amount of water moving through them.

Friends don't let friends shop by HP numbers on a brochure or web site.

If you can't see the tub running, be careful.

If you have had the weakest Horsepower pumps in the industry, I'll bet that it a good reason why you tell people that numbers mean nothing.

I work with numbers all the time. There is not one single part of science that doesn't.

[thestallion]

I'm with chas.

go feel the jets.

In the end the feel of the jets are all that matter. Small jets will give the illusion of being stronger but will make you itchy very quickly. Big HP numbers in the end are big lies 50 or 60 amps of juice can only power so much and 2 or 3 5 HP pumps and your heater will exceed what 50 or 60 amps will run, so the bottom line is it ain't simply true and if its not why buy from someone who will so blatantly mislead you to began with.

[Amanda]

I am not naturally of technical mind... I'll be the first to admit it. I'll have to read Jim's explanation again to grasp the concept. It is interesting to me how all those parts work together to make water massage us! I agree that numbers are important when factoring the strength of a pump. Makes sense to me... otherwise why would there be any rating numbers in the first place? As with all things, you have to read in between the numbers to really get it. I think it's important for me to know exactly how it comes together. I'm going to study this further. I also think it's important on HOW the strength of a pump is utilized or it would be worthless no matter what the numbers said. Bringing it back in "layman's" terms... You could have the biggest horsey in the world displaying more strength than an entire herd but it could be lazy as H E double "L". So, in my opinion, the only way to really know is by feeling it. I would base my purchasing decision ultimately off of the "feel" of it because that is why I would want a spa... to have a theraputic massage without that annoying itchy feeling from being poked by the water. When I test a spa, I am constantly changing the controls, moving the jets, taking air out and putting it back in, adjusting individual jets and telling the spa exactly what kind of massage I want. Knowing the numbers behind it is good for a persons understanding of how their spa works if they are interested in that but ultimately it's what feels good. This is the primary information one should seek out if they are curious about the efficacy of the pumps functioning capabilities.

[SpaMan]

I have been in this biz for two decades, and I have told thousands of folks this: the numbers on the brochure mean nothing. Nothing.

Wet testing is the only reliable way to see if the spa you are considering will provide the massage action you are looking for. If you can't or won't get into a spa in a store, try a friend's tub, or at the very least put your hand and arm in a hot, running tub similar to the one you are looking at.

Different makers use different numbers. Different pumps move more water than others. Different plumbing schemes allow more or less water to move, and different jets provide different feel for the same amount of water moving through them.

Friends don't let friends shop by HP numbers on a brochure or web site.

If you can't see the tub running, be careful.

I agree with Chas also the only way to know is to feel the jets that is all that is important numbers mean absoluetely nothing! every manufacturers plumbing is different with loss and gains of power in different ways so FEEL THE JETS! simple isnt it?

And Chas if you so choose you will be in this industry another 2 decades!! Others may not fare so well!!

[Jim_The_Jim]

I agree with Chas also the only way to know is to feel the jets that is all that is important numbers mean absoluetely nothing! every manufacturers plumbing is different with loss and gains of power in different ways so FEEL THE JETS! simple isnt it?

And Chas if you so choose you will be in this industry another 2 decades!! Others may not fare so well!!

I hope you can stay in for long enough to learn something, spaman, about spas and horsepower. I believe that the pumps in your spas use all sorts of BS Horse Power tags and tht is unethical. 11 amps does not equal 6 HP that your company advertises.

It is much better to simply state the real horsepower, continuous rated, not Brake or Peak, because those have nothing to do with the "work" being performed.

I find it interesting that the sales people who use brake HP or 48 frame pumps all poo poo the horsepower rating, but those who correctly state the contiunous work horsepower will proudly tell you about it, and spend the time to tell you why the "horsepower game" is one of the slick ploys by spa companies.

[Chas]

I'm interested in why any Spa Salesman - Internet or not - would try to make a case for NOT wet testing a spa. It will tell you more about the massage action, jet placement, jet performance, jet adjustability, jet nozzle interchange options, noise, comfort and a dozen other little things which simply can't be put on a brochure, or on a web site for that matter.

I can't sit here and tell a shopper which is going to be better for them - intelligent design or brute force. I can only tell them that it is wise to let their backside decide. At the very least put your hands and arms in front of some of the working jets from the spa you are looking at. Try them before you decide.

[Amanda]

I'm interested in why any Spa Salesman - Internet or not - would try to make a case for NOT wet testing a spa. It will tell you more about the massage action, jet placement, jet performance, jet adjustability, jet nozzle interchange options, noise, comfort and a dozen other little things which simply can't be put on a brochure, or on a web site for that matter.

I can't sit here and tell a shopper which is going to be better for them - intelligent design or brute force. I can only tell them that it is wise to let their backside decide. At the very least put your hands and arms in front of some of the working jets from the spa you are looking at. Try them before you decide.

And there you have it! The only way... at least a hand! "Let your backside decide." You don't mind if I borrow that as a "Chas-ism" in the future do you?

[Jim_The_Jim]

I'm interested in why any Spa Salesman - Internet or not - would try to make a case for NOT wet testing a spa. It will tell you more about the massage action, jet placement, jet performance, jet adjustability, jet nozzle interchange options, noise, comfort and a dozen other little things which simply can't be put on a brochure, or on a web site for that matter.

I can't sit here and tell a shopper which is going to be better for them - intelligent design or brute force. I can only tell them that it is wise to let their backside decide. At the very least put your hands and arms in front of some of the working jets from the spa you are looking at. Try them before you decide.

Chas; I tell people all the time to wet test. Once again, you are not speaking the truth about me as normal.

Have you read my book? I would think that would be one of the first things you should do. There is lots of education for consumers in that book, which I wrote when I was fixing spas for a living. I need to up date it just a little, but for the most part it is the best source for spa shoppers there is available. Just ask those who have benefited from it.

The wet test is important, so is a return, refund, and replace policy to insure absolute customer satisfaction.

Your spas do not use very good nor strong modern (high energy efficient and expensive) horsepower pumps, because your company sets extreme limitiations on the cost to produce the product in order to have profits. That is because it is part of a huge conglomerate. Things like three way diverter valves to limit the full function of the spa, low HP pumps, and shells held up with foam do not equal quality, it equals tons of concessions used to produce a substandard product that violates the ANSI safety standards.

You also are under the misconception that money means a lot to me, that is where you always make a huge mistake with me. For YOU money is important, for me the product is.

My spiritual teacher says to never be concerned about money, but to just do good work and the money will come. So, far he has been right. Making money is not a goal, but serving others is.

"Ya gotta serve someone"; Bod Dylan

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Have you read my book? I would think that would be one of the first things you should do. There is lots of education for consumers in that book, which I wrote when I was fixing spas for a living.

I didn't realize you had a book too but I checked and yours appears to be out of stock at Amazon.com. My book is not quite finished; I'm waiting for the Xerox machine to get fixed but once it is, we'll be Even Steven. The only difference being that my book won't be a tool to try to sell anything.

[Chris H]

I didn't realize you had a book too but I checked and yours appears to be out of stock at Amazon.com. My book is not quite finished; I'm waiting for the Xerox machine to get fixed but once it is, we'll be Even Steven. The only difference being that my book won't be a tool to try to sell anything.

I honestly did a search on Amazon. I should have known you were joking.

[Roger]

Have you read my book? I would think that would be one of the first things you should do. There is lots of education for consumers in that book, which I wrote when I was fixing spas for a living. I need to up date it just a little, but for the most part it is the best source for spa shoppers there is available. Just ask those who have benefited from it.

We are all aware of your opinion Jim and I am sorry but I don't see anything more than that in buying a book from you, your opinion. Mines different sorry.

I'm with Chas, HP means nothing and I was concerned when I bought my tub that one lousy 3.5 HP pump would not be enough, but guess what I was wrong, it's plenty!

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I honestly did a search on Amazon. I should have known you were joking.

ROLMAO, please tell me you really checked!?!? Jim's "book" will show up on Amazon.com the day Hugh Heffner anoints me as his successor!

[Chris H]

ROLMAO, please tell me really checked!?!? Jim's "book" will show up on Amazon.com the day Hugh Heffner anoints me as his successor!

I swear I checked. I thought you were serious.

[Dr. Spa]

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I swear I checked. I thought you were serious.

I should have tossed in a few . Anyone can bind a few notes written on a napkin together and call it a book so I guess his qualifies as such but I'm not sure it's of much use other than stopping a beer can from staining the coffee table.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I should have tossed in a few . Anyone can bind a few notes written on a napkin together and call it a book so I guess his qualifies as such but I'm not sure it's of much use other than stopping a beer can from staining the coffee table.

There is another book out on CD and in paper from custom built hot tubs and it is excellent. It is from the perspective of a spa shopper with a lot of mechanical and electrical savy. I highly recommend it.

"The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles."

Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 1966

US (Russian-born) novelist (1905 - 1982)

[Roger]

There is another book out on CD and in paper from custom built hot tubs and it is excellent. It is from the perspective of a spa shopper with a lot of mechanical and electrical savy. I highly recommend it.

"The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles."

Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 1966

US (Russian-born) novelist (1905 - 1982)

I find it very hard to believe,or maybe I shouldn't I guess this would clear it up that you of all people are quoteing Ayn Rand. A very un-American Capitalist.

No comprimise on basic principle huh Jim.......boy oh boy." Once our mind is open we will be able to see that there are serveral varieations of just about everything fact" Jewis Johnson 1954 Bronx born

[Spa-Guy]

Like Chas said,

Try it before you buy it. Narrow your search to about 3-4 brands and go for a test drive. Then and only then will you know which spa is best for you, instead of judging value, based on horsepower and total jet count. The real value is in a spa that lasts for 15 years and gives you and your family just what you wanted. Enjoy the hot H20.

[Trigger]

Chas; I tell people all the time to wet test. Once again, you are not speaking the truth about me as normal.

Have you read my book? I would think that would be one of the first things you should do. There is lots of education for consumers in that book, which I wrote when I was fixing spas for a living. I need to up date it just a little, but for the most part it is the best source for spa shoppers there is available. Just ask those who have benefited from it.

The wet test is important, so is a return, refund, and replace policy to insure absolute customer satisfaction.

Your spas do not use very good nor strong modern (high energy efficient and expensive) horsepower pumps, because your company sets extreme limitiations on the cost to produce the product in order to have profits. That is because it is part of a huge conglomerate. Things like three way diverter valves to limit the full function of the spa, low HP pumps, and shells held up with foam do not equal quality, it equals tons of concessions used to produce a substandard product that violates the ANSI safety standards.

You also are under the misconception that money means a lot to me, that is where you always make a huge mistake with me. For YOU money is important, for me the product is.

My spiritual teacher says to never be concerned about money, but to just do good work and the money will come. So, far he has been right. Making money is not a goal, but serving others is.

"Ya gotta serve someone"; Bod Dylan

Jim, you should honestly post this book online and make it freely available to others for download. After all, it's about educating others, not making the sale, or money. You should freely and openly share your knowedge with us. Pehrpas you can have a download on you website that would allow us to read it?

I think it would be wonderful!

[Amanda]

Jim, you should honestly post this book online and make it freely available to others for download. After all, it's about educating others, not making the sale, or money. You should freely and openly share your knowedge with us. Pehrpas you can have a download on you website that would allow us to read it?

I think it would be wonderful!

I would LOVE that!

[Trigger]

I would LOVE that!

I image more of a pamphlet, that was run off on a low end home printer, and stapeled togethor in a slip shody way. Pehaps some crude drawing done in MS paint. Nothing new, nothing forward looking, nothing but a long drawn out, mispelled, rambling attempt at self validation and thinly veiled attempt to make a buck.

Some may come with burbon stains on the cover. Others may have that musty, stored in the basement smell.