jasontjames Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 Here is a link to a video so you can hear the sound that it is making. It just started doing this all of a sudden. The pump still works. The cleaner runs normally, but it makes this awful noise. Any ideas on what might be wrong with it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df2OFX8ncG4 Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to give me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Sounds like the bearings in the motor have begun to make noise. You can: 1. take the motor to a shop to have them put new bearings in a old motor, or 2. you can change the motor. Don't let anyone tell you that you need a new Pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoolGuyNJ Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Sounds like bearings to me too but I have never had good luck with swapping bearings and prefer to swap the motor and seal set. Fewer go-backs. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFiremanFirst Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 How old is your equipment. It may be under warranty, one year is safe. I was just noticing your equipment didn't look that old. Great video post. If you pull the motor... IMHO I have found it easier to pull the motor with the electrical whip still attached by unhooking your electrical in your panel. Flip the breaker of course. Install is often done from the motor to the equipment leaving little if any slack in the motor to reconnect your power. Just an opinion. Don't forget to get a new pump seal, and it's often a good idea to replace the large o-ring in the pump while you've got it all apart. With that said. Why did your bearing go out? The most common cause of bearing failure in your system is that your pump cavitated (was not circulating water) and your booster pump turned on. With out sufficient flow to the pump the ceramic pressure seal failed and allowed/allows water into the front side of the motor causing damage to your front bearing. I only mention that to help prevent future failures. With your new sound, you likely also have a small amount of water under the booster pump indicating seal failure. Any water at or near my equipment is worthy of investigation. When you so decide to replace your motor, there are tricks of the trade to installing your new pressure seal that we will be happy to walk you through. As mentioned before, the seal is two pieces of ceramic spinning at 3500rpms, there is no room for brute force, or steel hammers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasontjames Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 The pump is 3.5 years old. There is a good chance that the pump did indeed cavitate as AFiremanFirst described. I travel a lot for work and let's just say that my wife is not the most observant person in the world. Not getting an auto-fill on the pool is likely one of my biggest oversights. Nothing like getting a call from your wife when you are 1000 miles away asking why the pool is making a weird noise. Looks like I will be pulling the pump apart next weekend. Any recommendations on where to buy a new motor for a Pentair Booster Pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Pump seals do not get damaged when the pump cavitates. They will, however, burn and leak if the pump runs dry. Cavitation is the formation of gas bubbles in a flowing liquid. This link will explain it better than I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Pump seals do not get damaged when the pump cavitates. They will, however, burn and leak if the pump runs dry. Cavitation is the formation of gas bubbles in a flowing liquid. This link will explain it better than I. I agree, cavitation (bubbles in the water) should not damage the seals. Pumps that run dry and overheat are what damages seals. IF cavitation causes the pump to lose prime and run dry and the seals could become damaged but cavitation does not always cause a pump to run dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Yes but to say "IF cavitation causes the pump to lose prime and run dry" is wrong. If you loose prime, it's because air is being drawn in somewhere, not cavitation. Cavitation will not cause a pump to loose prime or run dry. Your pump ran dry because there was an absence of fluid (low water level,air leak, etc.), not because it was cavitating. You need fluid flowing in the pump before you could get cavitation, therefore no dry pump! The air that comes out of the water(boiling) during cavitation is not the same as atmospheric air that will kill a primed pump. Cavitation occurs while fluid is moving, Running dry is when there is no fluid. I don't know how else to explain it. Bottom line: If you have a leaking seal, it is due to no water in the pump tank to cool the seal. Keep the pool full, check the weir, and all baskets to avoid the pump running dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Yes but to say "IF cavitation causes the pump to lose prime and run dry" is wrong. If you loose prime, it's because air is being drawn in somewhere, not cavitation. Cavitation will not cause a pump to loose prime or run dry. Your pump ran dry because there was an absence of fluid (low water level,air leak, etc.), not because it was cavitating. You need fluid flowing in the pump before you could get cavitation, therefore no dry pump! The air that comes out of the water(boiling) during cavitation is not the same as atmospheric air that will kill a primed pump. Cavitation occurs while fluid is moving, Running dry is when there is no fluid. I don't know how else to explain it. Bottom line: If you have a leaking seal, it is due to no water in the pump tank to cool the seal. Keep the pool full, check the weir, and all baskets to avoid the pump running dry. You are quite right of course! A pump can cavitate for different reasons but losing prime IS caused by sucking air. You may serve me my slice of humble pie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFiremanFirst Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Wow! Oh mighty pool clown once again you are correct! I used the layman term of cavitation for simplicity assuming the poster didn't have a degree in hydraulics. I'd like whip cream on my pie, pumpkin preferrably! (POOL CLOWN) Pump seals do not get damaged when the pump cavitates. They will, however, burn and leak if the pump runs dry. Cavitation is the formation of gas bubbles in a flowing liquid. I won't waste my time or anyone elses explaining to you that seals don't "burn" no more than his pump "cavitated". How ridiculuous, you're obviously still offended, sorry again for humoring you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I won't waste my time or anyone elses explaining to you that seals don't "burn" no more than his pump "cavitated". How ridiculuous, you're obviously still offended, sorry again for humoring you! Ok genius, what do seals do when they heat up by the pump running dry? Just because i jump in here and stop the mis-education you're giving, doesn't mean i'm offended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I won't waste my time or anyone elses explaining to you that seals don't "burn" no more than his pump "cavitated". How ridiculuous, you're obviously still offended, sorry again for humoring you! Ok genius, what do seals do when they heat up by the pump running dry? I would say they 'burn'. Sorry fireman. Perhaps you would prefer the term 'scorch'? Definition one sure seems to apply to the last set of seals I changed out! (in my own pump that ran dry, btw! NOT from cavitation but from a valve that sprung a leak so my pump lost prime!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Maybe he thinks that if you use the term burn, that it must "burn up" leaving a lump of charcoal. Not everything exposed to heat leaves visible proof of being burned. You may someday be fortunate enough to walk up on a pump that has been running dry and when you change the seal you will find out you can't even touch the seal due to the heat generated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFiremanFirst Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 My point is that your uneducated use of the word "burn" to describe what happens to a seal made of rubber steel and ceramic, is about as genius as my use of the word cavitate. In laymans terms burn and cavitate are both widely excepted. And you're right, not everything exposed to heat leaves a lump of charcoal. I'll add if there is no sign of it burning, it was likely just as you said, exposed to heat, not burnt. Sure, seals get hot when they are left in pump without water. It's ceramic and it's friction, but just because it's hot does not mean it "burn"t. I'm merely trying to help this guy out. Again I'll apologize for my incorrect usage of the word cavitate. I won't expect you'll eat a piece of humble pie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 My point is that your uneducated use of the word "burn" to describe what happens to a seal made of rubber steel and ceramic, is about as genius as my use of the word cavitate. In laymans terms burn and cavitate are both widely excepted. And you're right, not everything exposed to heat leaves a lump of charcoal. I'll add if there is no sign of it burning, it was likely just as you said, exposed to heat, not burnt. Sure, seals get hot when they are left in pump without water. It's ceramic and it's friction, but just because it's hot does not mean it "burn"t. I'm merely trying to help this guy out. Again I'll apologize for my incorrect usage of the word cavitate. I won't expect you'll eat a piece of humble pie. check out definition 31 (from Dictionary.com) for burn: "to damage through excessive friction, as in grinding or machining; scorch". Sounds like what happens to seals when a pump runs dry to me! Sorry fireman, I have to side with Pool Clown on this one! His use of the word was not 'uneducated' but quite to the contrary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFiremanFirst Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 scorch, I'll give you scorch, so you had to go to the 31 definition to make "burn" work. Really? Maybe I'm just "overeducated" concerning the subject matter. For anything to burn you need the fire tetrahedron. Since there is no chemical chain reaction. No ceramic did not burn. Sure maybe it "scorched" or discolored, but "burn"ed? My point is we're wasting our time picking apart laymans terms for the sake of flexing our muscles. Uneducated was the perfect term considering pool clown thinks you get charcoal when things "burn up". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 To say that my use of the word burn is the same as your Incorrect use of the word cavitate? You've got to be kidding me. Seals DO burn! Like i mentioned before, things can burn without a flame. At this point, there is nothing i can say to you to convince you of that. BTW, cavitation is not a layman's term/word. Layman's terms are words that everyone knows the meaning of, so they can be understood. Like "the pump is drawing in air". This forum is in part a teaching aid, and you are teaching people the wrong use or definition of a word. There is a good chance that the pump did indeed cavitate as AFiremanFirst described. Great, now this guy thinks that an air leak is called cavitation. Maybe you should stick to what you did first, because your'e just making everyone's efforts here more difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 My point is that your uneducated use of the word "burn" to describe what happens to a seal made of rubber steel and ceramic, is about as genius as my use of the word cavitate. Last time I checked, all three of these can burn if the temperature is high enough. scorch, I'll give you scorch, so you had to go to the 31 definition to make "burn" work. Really? Maybe I'm just "overeducated" concerning the subject matter. I think not since, from the same source quoted above, burn and scorch are synonyms. For anything to burn you need the fire tetrahedron. I think you need to stop thinking like a fireman and extend your definition of 'burn' a bit. Since there is no chemical chain reaction. No ceramic did not burn. Sure maybe it "scorched" or discolored, but "burn"ed? Well, lets test for the 4 things the tetrahedron says we need: If it discolored, what caused the discoloration? HEAT! (In this case this would be our limiting factor in the tetrahedron, heat from friction.) Is oxygen present (or some other oxidizing agent)? YES! Did some oxidative chemical reaction occur to cause the color change? You tell me. Is what discolored the fuel source (reducing agent)? I think that's a good bet! I believe we have just met all 4 requirements for 'burning' according to the tetrahedron. Since we have already seen that, by definition, scorch and burn are synonyms this is moot anyway. My point is we're wasting our time picking apart laymans terms for the sake of flexing our muscles. Uneducated was the perfect term considering pool clown thinks you get charcoal when things "burn up". I agree that this is wasting time and not helping the OP and so perhaps we could get back on topic now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 scorch, I'll give you scorch, so you had to go to the 31 definition to make "burn" work. Really? Maybe I'm just "overeducated" concerning the subject matter. Yea, i'm sure thats it. For anything to burn you need the fire tetrahedron. Since there is no chemical chain reaction. No ceramic did not burn. Ok, i'll agree with that, but ceramic is only half of the seal. The other piece can be made from: Viton, Buma, Nitrile, and Carbon. Think carbon burns? Sure maybe it "scorched" or discolored, but "burn"ed? My point is we're wasting our time picking apart laymans terms for the sake of flexing our muscles. You seem to be the only one trying to flex. Uneducated was the perfect term considering pool clown thinks you get charcoal when things "burn up". Re read the post, i said you must think that it turns to coal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterbear Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 OK, FOR THE SECOND TIME, let's get back to the topic of the malfunctioning booster pump or I will lock this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pool Clown Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Apologies, i did not see your post (#18) before responding to the insults (Posts 14, 16). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoolSpaGuy30 Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 too many chiefs... (you know the rest) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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