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waterbear

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Everything posted by waterbear

  1. pH tends to rise on it's own. If it drops then raise the TA to around 100 ppm. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/
  2. This is for a chlorine tub or pool using dichlor or trichlor, particularity trichlor
  3. Hydrogen peroxide will destroy any residual halogen sanitizer in the water. The only fast acting residual sanitizer that works with H2O2 is biguinide, although some use it with metals such as silver or copper. However, this can lead to staining.
  4. Phosphates do not deplete chlorine! Algae and biofilms deplete chlorine. Read that a few times and let it sink in! Listen to @Ahhsomeguy, he speaks the truth!!!!!! Phosphates are a non issue. Phosphates are one of two algae foods that can be found in a tub or pool. The other is nitrates. We don't test for nitrate since the only way to lower them is by changing out the water with nitrate/phosphate free water. Phosphates can be precipitates and then filtered out by Lanthanum salts (a messy process at best). However, it does give pool stores another product they can sell you! (I used to work in that sector of the industry so I do have knowledge on this). The way phosphate removers work is they remove one of the food sources for algae growth. However this will only work if phosphates are the limiting factor in algae growth. Often they are not and nitrates are the problem. I'm not saying that phosphate removers are a scam but the are unnecessary almost all the time. If algae is the problem maintaining proper chlorine levels for the CYA level will take care of the problem as will addition of a polyquat 60 (Polyloxyethylene Idimethyliminiol ethylene· (dimethyliminiol ethylene dichloride) based algacide if needed (stay away from linear quats and copper based algacides). Phosphates and nitrates usually find their way into pools and spas by runoff from fertilizer. Since spas are kept covered most of the time one of the necessary items for algae growth, sunlight, is absent so the problem in spas is the formation of biofilm in the plumbing. This can occur whether the phosphate levels are high or non-existent. The solution is to purge the spa on a regular basis as @Ahhsomeguysuggested. FWIW, my pool and spa have phosphate levels of over 10,000 ppb (that is parts per billion, not parts per million or ppm) and have for about 20 years now and I do not use phosphate remover nor do I have algae or biofilm Phosphate removers are usually recommended for phosphate levels of 100 ppb but research has indicated that if they are going to have any impact on algae growth (i.e. they are the limiting factor) it does not occur below 1000 ppb.
  5. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer, and UV is not residual. Disinfection only takes place in the reaction chamber where the UV light is located.This is why it is not an approved sanitizer system. You still need a fast acting residual sanitizer!
  6. What brand and model of testing kit are you using? (It does matter!) Read these posts!!!!!! They will provide some background info (based on the actual chemistry that goes on in the water) https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ They actually add chlorine and ammonia . They do this because the monochloramne produce is more stable than just chlorine. As far as the pH of liquid chlorine it it net neutral (alkaline on addition, acidic on consumption) so it really has minimal impact on pH. This is also true for cal hypo.
  7. FC free chlorine CC combined chlorine or combined chloramines TC total chlorine pH Potential Hydrogen (how acidic or alkaline a solution is) TA total alkalinity (the measure of bicarbonate ions in the water) CH Calcium Hardness TH Total Hardness (calcium and magnesium--useless for balancing water but most test strips only test total hardness and not calcium hardness) CYA or CA cyanuric acid which is used to stabilize chlorine but too much will limit the disinfection ability Br bromine BCDMH Bromo-chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin (bromine tablets), normally used in a floater cal hypo calcium hypochlorite, an inorganic powdered chlorine source that adds 7 ppm CH for every 10 ppm of FC added and is net pH neutral on use (alkaline when added, acidic on sanitation) trichlor a slow dissolving organic chlorine source that adds 6 ppm CYA for every 10 ppm of FC added, It's extremely acidic (acidic when added, acidic on sanitation)and not normally recommended for hot tubs. It is normally used in a floater or feeder Dichlor a fast dissolving organic chlorine source that adds 9 ppm of CYA for every 10 ppm of FC added.It is slightly acidic (acidic when added, acidic on sanitation) Liquid Chlorine or Shock, plain unscented chlorine laundry bleach, sodium hypochlorite an inorganic liquid chlorine source that is net pH neutral on use (alkaline when added, acidic on sanitation). It's main side effect is causing a slight increase in salt level (sodium chloride), which has no negative effect on water chemistry.
  8. Some ice melters are ok, most are not. Pure calcium chloride in a 50 lb bag (food grade is not necessary, 77% - 80% is what is normally sold for swimming pools) from an online chemical retailer or pool store (online or brick and mortar) that also caters to pool service pros is your most economical option. Be aware that the dosing is different for the dihydrate and the anhydrous forms with the latter being more concentrated. Either way, one bag will last a very long time.
  9. Keep adding drops until the last drop added produces no additional change and then don't count that last drop. In other other words, you've added 7 drops and it's red, You add one more drop for a total of 8 drops and the red stays the same, Don't count the last drop, you reached your endpoint at 7 drops. depends on the test, Testing should really be done with room temperature samples so if you are testing before heating and it's not freezing cold you are good. If the water is cold bring the sample indoors until it reaches room temp. and then test. You can adjust TA with sanitizer in the water as long as it's not at shock level. With Taylor reagents sanitizer should be below 10 ppm, with Pentair reagents 5 ppm. borax (soidum teteaborate decahydrate) , sodium tetraborate pentahydrate, or boric acid. Both penahydrate forms will raise pH so need acid (either muriatic or dry) added to maintain the pH in proper range. Boric acid will slightly lower pH (which quickly goes back to where it was with some aeration. As long as your pH is above 7.4 the slight lowering can be ignored.) Boric acid is more expensive than borax but still less expense than the commercial pentahydrate products like, Supreme and Optimizer. Gentle Spa, Supreme Plus, and Optmizer Plua are mixture sof boric acid and pentahydratre to make a pH neutral product. My recommendation is boric acid. Easy to dose, pH change is minimal, and price is reasonable. Not that I am aware of but I am by no means an expert on Cedar tubs.
  10. bromine. Chlorine converts the bromide in the water into bromine sanitizer, You won't have chlorine, only bromine. Leave the tub uncovered and circulating until sanitizer level has dropped. yes try cutting back to every two weeks or even monthly. put fewer tablets in the floater. also not all floaters are created equal. Most don't maintain bromine levels very well. Get a Pentair floater, best one made, IMHO. Model 330 for 3" tablets, 335 for 1" tablets. Stay away from the 332. It is cheaper but does not allow for the same level of adjustments.
  11. Lowering TA can be done with either muriatic, sulfuric, or dry acid. Dry acid is sodium bisulfite and when dissolved in water forms sulfurous acid. The procedure to lower TA is here: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ If you don't have jets it can still be done, it will just take longer. worst case, just get into the tub and splash. If you can rig a piece of PVC pipe with a right angle to your return so it shoots the water into the air and then falls back into the tub that will work. You want surface agitation to facilitate the outgassing of CO2.
  12. Because of the increased demand for lithium in lithium ion batteries it's become next to impossible to find these day, at least in the US and Canada. However, if I am not mistaken it is still available in Australia. I am optimistic that it will eventually return. In the meantime, sodium hypochlorite is the best substitute. The only advantage that lithium has over bleach is that it's a fast dissolving powder which some find easier to dose. It's main disadvantage is that it's always been the most expen$ive form of chlorine.
  13. Please post a full set of test results. (free chlorine, either combined chlorine or total chlorine, pH , cyanuric acid, total alkalinity and calcium hardness) and we can give you recommendatons and dosing based on YOUR pool! If you smell a 'chlorine smell" that usually indicated combined chlorine (the bad chlorine that does not sanitize, irritates eyes, and has a strong smell that forms when chlorine combines with ammonia and other organics from bathers in the water) and indicates the need to superchlorinate by raising your free chlorine above 10 to 20 ppm, depending on your cyanuric acid level. This is often referred to as shocking. FWIW, shock is NOT a special product, it's something you do. Any form of chlorine can be used as a chock but you should avoid stabilized chlorine since it will raise the cyanuric acid level . Most 'shock' products are either calcium hypochlorite , lithium hypochorite (both powders), or sodium hypochlorite (liquid pool shock or liquid pool chlorine or laundry bleach). Avoid shocks that are dichlor or trichlor based. Free chlorine (the good chlorine that sanitizes) has no odor in a pool.
  14. In a word, no. Because of the nature of testing bromine and chlorine with either DPD or OTO , if you are testing for bromine and it's in range then you also will have the correct level of chlorine. At first you will have a chlorine spa but as the bromide bank builds up (which can take several week) the spa will gradually convert into a bromine spa. Just assume it's bromine from the start and maintain adequate sanitizer.
  15. I was but didn't want to say anything unless I could back it up.😉
  16. Read their website. They say it's a "mineral blend" but not much else. This is always a red flag for me. Minerals are often a keyword for metals like silver, copper and zinc. However, I suspect in this case it's a seqestrant since it says it reduces calcium and also a purge product since it says it helps remove biofilfm. It might also contain borate because borate does reduce sanitizer demand and that is one of the big claims this company makes for their product but that's just a guess. Do you need it? In a word, no.
  17. In a chlorine system you cannot create FC from chloramines. Chloramines are oxidized and either gas off or are converted to salt, which cannot be regenerated into chlorine unless you have a SWCG. (In a bromine system sodium bromide CAN be converted back to bromine sanitizer by an oxidizer such as chlorine, MPS, or ozone.) If the spa is indoors then the buildup of volatile oxidation byproducts in the air might present a problem much the same as with an indoor pool but in an outside spa just take off the cover and run it for about 15 min before going in to allow them to gas off. Have to agree with @RDspaguy.
  18. no need for that much precision (.2 ppm is overkill and can lead to error because of the number of drops to count.) Use the 10 ml sample, 1 scoop of DPD powder and then each drop will be equivalent to .5 ppm FC. Add 5 drops of DPD reagent 3 for the CC test and then each drop will be .5 ppm combined chlorine. You want to shock or add MPS when the CC is persistant and greater than .5 ppm (> or = 1 ppm). If you are using MPS then you need to get the R-0867 Deox Reagent to remove the interference (MPS will test as combined chlorine). The 2 oz. kit https://taylortechnologies.com/en/uproduct/reagent-pack-monopersulfate-interference-remover-for-2000-series-kits-w-2-oz-re?id=K-2042 is a better bargain than the .75 oz kit https://taylortechnologies.com/en/product/test-kits/reagent-packmonopersulfate-interference-remover-for-2000-series-kits-w-75oz-rea--K-2041 but it won't fit in your plastic case. Just noticed this rereading the posts. What is your TA? (or what was it when you were having the pH problem?)
  19. this tell us nothing. We need a full set of test results along with the testing method (strips, liquid or tablet reagents, test disc. Whether the results are read from a color block or with a meter. Is this a home test or dealer test.) pH issues can cause the problem you describe as can. Without further information on your water my best guess is that you shocked the pool very high because you were trying to kill mustard algae and then tested pH without allowing the chlorine to drop below 10 ppm first, which is a no no because of the effect of high sanitizer levels on the pH test. Hgh sanitizer causes the phenol red indicator to convert to chlorophenol red which has the same color changes as phenol red but test a pH range of 4.8 to 6.7 so when the pH indicates that it's 8.0 or higher all you really know is that it's greater than or equal to 6.7 and when you add the acid you are bringing the pH below 6.7 which is low enough to dissolve the rubber end caps on the filter. I suspect you then put in acid because the pH read very high after the shock, even though it was not and brought you pH dangerously low, which caused the end caps on the filter to dissolve and get caught in the filter.
  20. This reading is impossible to achieve with a Taylor K-2006. The test has a precision of +/- 10 ppm and the scale is logarithmic so you cannot interpolate readings between the marked ones on the CYA test tube. Are you using a 10 ml or 25 ml sample for the chlorine tests? Is your 4 ppm reading for chlorine Free chlorine or Combined Chlorine? Are you using MPS? The only thing different about performance bleach is the inclusion of Poly(Diallyldimethylammonium Chloride) and Polyacrylic Acid, which are common ingredients in many pool clarifiers. They are coagulants that cause small particles to clump together that, in laundry, prevent dirt from redepositing back on clothes and in pools and spas, cause them to become large enough to be filtered out by the filter. neither would have an adverse affect on pH. All other ingredients in performance bleach besides the sodium hypochlorite, are also found in pool chlorine and other liquid sodium hypochlorite products, either as breakdown products as the bleach weakens with time or for manufacturing and stabilizing (sodium chloride (salt), water, sodium hydroxide, sodium chlorate, sodium carbonate).
  21. Which kit? All the DPD based kits such as the K-2005 can bleach out at high sanitizer levels (unless you dilute the sample and make the appropriate calculations on the reading) leaving you to believe that the sanitizer is much lower than it really is. The only kit that is immune to this until sanitizer gets to extremely high levels is their FSD-DPD testing method found in the K-2006/2106 kits and as a standalone kit. OTO testing (which only tests total chlorine) will also be immune to bleachout from high sanitizer. Performance bleach is fine and will not cause the pH rise you are seeing. Based on what you have said so far the most logical explanation is that you are testing with DPD, your sanitizer is much higher than you think causing a partial bleachout of the DPD which leads you to think your sanitizer is low when it is actually high. The high sanitizer is causing the phenol red indicator to convert to chlorophenol red which has the same color changes as phenol red but test a pH range of 4.8 to 6.7 so when the pH indicates that it's 8.0 all you really know is that it's greater than or equal to 6.7 and when you add the acid you are bringing the pH below 6.7 so you are getting a different pH reading that is equivalent to the 7.4 but is much lower. If you are using FAS-DPD testing then a full set of test results might give us more information.
  22. How big is your tub and how are you testing? There is a known interference with phenol red used to test pH and high sanitizer levels. 3 to 4 Tbls. of 7.5% bleach will raise 100 gal. 9 to 12 ppm over the starting point (usually around 3 to 5 ppm) and pH test will show this interference when sanitizer is over 5 to 10 ppm, depending on who makes the reagent. The effect of the interference in that the pH will read high when it is not. Your pH is not rising, it's still 7.4 and my guess is that you free chlorine is high when you get the high pH reading
  23. Only in a pool with no Cyanuric Acid (stabilizer). Once stabilizer is present the Free Chlorine has to be run higher to achieve the same sanitizing and Algae killing effect.
  24. So much wrong here. Algae blooms are not always caused by running chlorine too low for the CYA level. Also, FWIW, this information on CYA was first published by Ben Powell on Pool Forum (and was known since the late 60s because of the research carried out by John A. Wojtowicz of Chemcon but suppressed by the largest manufacturer of stabilized chlorine) and carried over to TFP, as was the BBB method which was also developed by Ben Powell. I as one of the original Mods on TFP when it first started and actually wrote much of pool school. However, when the board was sold to it's current owner there were some issues so I left and they removed my name from what I wrote but many of my posts are still there. The info on Borate is based on work that I did along with Chemgeek originally on Pool Forum and later carried over to TFP. Now, as far as phosphates go, this is just a moneymaker for pool stores. Algae nutrients are phosphate and nitrate. Phosphate is testable and Lanthanum salts will cause it to precipitate out (and cloud the pool and and clog the filter, this is how phosphate removers work). Nitrates are also testable. However, the only way to remove them is by draining and refilling with nitrate free water. Nothing for a pool store to sell you so no money to be made. Phosphates commonly enter pools by fertilizer runoff. Nitrates commonly enter pools either by runoff of fertilizer or sweat, feces, and urine, which EVERY bather adds, no matter how clean they think they are. Animal droppings are also a source. Now, as far as algae blooms go both nitrates and phosphates are algae food. Nitrates are more often the limiting factor in algae growth than phosphates so in most cases only removing phosphates has not effect. IF phosphate is the limiting factor then they do work but they are messy to use. A much better solution, IMHO, is to add 50 ppm borate for it's algaestatic properties and maintain proper FC for the current CYA level and shock to the proper level (which is all the SLAM procedure is. The reason TFP created the word SLAM was to end confusion on the fact that shock is a verb, not a noun. It's something you do by raising the FC and keeping it there until algae is killed and not adding a product called shock. Products called shock are nothing more than chlorine or MPS. Chlorine will kill algae, MPS won't but can help with persistant chloramines in certain cases) Hope this clears things up.
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