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Everything posted by waterbear

  1. Nature 2 with MPS in HOT water is a sanitizer but does need chlorine as a shock weekly. Nature 2 with chlorine is unnecessary as long as the FC is kept at the proper level for the CYA content. AS far as types of chlorine go, the 2 stabilized forms of chlorine, diclor and tricnlor, add CYA at the rate of 9 ppm for every 10 ppm FC added (dichlor) or 6 ppm for every 10 ppm FC added (trichlor). Dichlor is a fast dissolving chlorine that is net acidic so it will deplete TA and quickly overstabilize the water. Trichlor is an extremely acidic, slow dissolving chlorine sourse that will also overstabilize but not as quickly as dichlor. Because of it's extreme acidity and the small amount of water in a tub compared to a pool it is not recommended for tubs since the water can become very acidic quickly which could result in damage. Unstabilized chlorine sources are net pH neutral. Calcium hypochlorite is a slow dissolving chlorine that will add 7 ppm calcium hardness for every 10 ppm FC added. If your water is on the soft side it's a good choice as long as you are doing water replacement (drain and refill) every 3 months and you don't let your pH go above 8.9 or you could lend up with scale deposits in the tub. As far as the N2 is concerned, it doesn't care which form of chlorine you use. Once the chlorine is dissolved in water it becomes sodium hypochlorite (liquid chlorine) so using bleach with the N2 is fine.
  2. Less water also means more water maintenance, more frequent water changes, and less forgiving if your sanitation routine slips a bit. Bottom line, the larger the volume of water, the easier the water maintenance.
  3. Make and model would be a good starting point.
  4. Since a solution has been found and posted in this thread for the original issue I am locking it.
  5. Not in this forum since you have a grand total of 13 posts here and have been a member here for slightly over a year.
  6. If a new post is created it will get a greater chance of getting seen by more members. Perhaps you missed that I am a forum moderator. Perhaps if all the people that have had the same problem as the OP started new threads your problem might have been solved. One never knows but a new thread for a question will get more exposure than tacking on to an old thread.
  7. NO NO NO. YOu cannot test pH when sanitizer is high (over 10 ppm) because of an interaction between the chlorine and the phenol red indicator. It will convert to chlorphenol red and will read much higher than the actual pH. It doesn't. You must have made a measurement error. When reading the CYA tube hold it at waist level in open shade. too high, you want this at 50 to 70 ppm for best pH stability https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ probably precipitated calcium carbonate. A little bit is nothing to worry about. Usually happens at high pH and TA or if you add calcium and baking soda (TA increaser) at the same time Too high CYA scale is logarithmic, not linear, so you cant interpolate between markings accurately. Still too high. Should be around 30 ppm with FC maintained at 3-5 ppm. With your CYA at 50 ppm you need to maintain FC at 4-6 ppm. At 85 ppm CYA it needs to be 6 to 10 ppm for trhe same sanitizing ability This reading is good.
  8. @Jdramz You posted in a thread that is over two years old. You will have a much better chance of getting your question answered if you start a new thread with your question
  9. No, I don't work for Taylor Technologies nor do I get any kind of kickback. It's just that they make the best test kits at competative porices. LaMotte , Palintest, and Hach are other good companies but their kits are either more expensive or don't test all the needed parameters or both.
  10. Not really, Chlorine is a fast acting RESIDUAL sanitizer, meaning that it stays in the water. Ozone and UV only kill what is in the reaction chamber and not in the body of the water. Realize that every bather adds feces, urine and sweat (chemically almost identical to urine) into the water along with bacteria and viruses so a fast acting residual sanitizer is needed. Frog@ease, Nature 2, and other "mineral" sanitizers use silver ions from silver nitrate or silver chloride. Silver is NOT a fast acting sanitzer vbut it is residual and does not have action against viruses. It's an excellent algaecide, however (normally algae is not a problem in tubs since they are usually kept covered). ` You are smelling combined chlorine (chloramines) Chlorine has very little smell. The cure for combined chlorine is more chlorine. Acid lowers both pH and alkalinity. The trick is to bring the pH back up without raising the alkalinity. It's not very hard but you are going to need to invest in a good test kit and ditch the strips. They are worthless for balancing water and are not precise. Get a Taylor K-2006 test kit (Not the K-2005) from Amazon or another online retailer of pool/spa products (it's worth every penny!), watch the videos on the Taylor Technology website to learn how to use the kit, don't use the Fog system or Nature 2 (Expen$ive and a waste of money, and read these posts: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53108-some-truths-on-bleach-dosing/ and finally: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/23090-dichlorbleach-method-in-a-nutshell/ The last thread makes it sound harder than it is and when I have the time I will make a new one that is much easier to understand and eliminates some of the unnecessary (IMHO) steps such as checking CD (chlorine demand). hOWEVER, it will give you an overview of starting a tub on dichlor until the CYA reaches about 30 ppm then switching to laundry bleach or liquid pool chlorine (same thing but different strengths) to continue chlorination without adding more CYA until you drain and refill (every 32 to 4 months is recommended no matter what sanitizer you use) and you start over again. Post any further questions and I will be glad to help., A spa is easy to take care of but you do need the proper tools and the right chemicals. Many of the chemicals you need can be found at the grocery store, btw. For example total alkalinity increaser is nothing more than Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate AKA Sodium Bicarbonate AKA Bicarbonate of Soda AKA Baking Soda. pH increaser is Sodium Carbonate AKA Washing Soda (in the laundry aisle) but a much better choice is Sodium Borate Decahydrate AKA Borax (also in the laundry aisle) which will raise pH with minimal effect on TA. First, you need a good test kit that will give you accurate results with the precision needed to balance the water (for example, the TA test in the Taylor kit has a precision of +/-10 ppm with a 25 ml water sample while the vast majority of strips have a precisoin of +/- 40 ppm or worse. 10 ppm alkalinity can mean the difference between a pH stable spa and one that needs constant attention.
  11. There are many online pool/spa retailers that sell the K-2006 and I know of many that have ordered from Amazon with no problems. I just read the one star and two star reviews and the ones that said it was missing reagents are confusing this kit with the K-2005 which uses three liquid reagents for DPD chlorine testing while the K-2006 uses the far superior FAS-DPD test method which uses a powder and a liquid reagent . The one that was comparing this kit to strips, which do not provide the resolution of this kit only illustrated that the strips are not a dependable testing method, which is well known and documented. As far as missing or expired reagents, there were reviews where the buyer contacted Amazon and was given a refund. As far as the kit being too complicated, Taylor Technologies has many videos and helpful tips on their website and they have excellent technical support. Some of the other negative comments on problems with the FAS-DPD test indicate that their chlorine levels were too high for the test to measure. Both DPD testing and FAS-DPD testing can bleach out at high sanitizer levels (can occur after shocking or the use of non chlorine shock) but FAD-DPD testing will not bleach out as quickly and can tolerate much higher sanitizer levels before exhibiting problems. In other words, most of the negative comments are based on user ignorance. I find the funniest ones are the ones complaining that there are no instructions on how to do the tests. The instructions are permanently attached to the inside of the lid!
  12. Doesn't sound like bacteria. Sounds more like a water balance issue. Please post a full set of test results (sanitizer, pH, total alkalinity, CH, and, if you are using chlorine, the cyanuric acid (stabilizer). You said you are filling with softened water so I assume you are adding calcium and you said the problem starts when you adjust the pH (are you raising it or lowering it?) when the problem occurs. Clouding can occur if the water is not balanced in the correct order if you have high calcium and high pH and high alkalinity which can cause calcium carbonate to precipitate out of the water causing the water to cloud. As I said, post a full set of test results (preferably NOT done with strips) and we can take it from there.
  13. @Newton100 You are posting in a 10 year old thread. Please start a new thread with your question and you will recieve a much better chance of getting a reply.
  14. Which Taylor test kit did you get? The K-2006 and K-2106 are the recommended ones since the FAS-DPD sanitizer test is far superor and easier to read to DPD based testing. As far as the TA test, it is a color change from green to red in the Taylor kits so if you are having trouble with it have someone else read it. pH and CH measurements are based on other color chagnes so you should not have problems. no, alkalinity is way too high and strips only measure total hardness, not calcium harness. Total hardness is a useless reading. Also, strips do not have the resolution to effectively balance water. The range is often too wide for even a "ballpark" guess as to the actual levels. Your hardness test and sanitizer test both bleached out because of high sanitizer and MPS. If you have the taylor K-2006 or K-2106m you would be able to get an accurate reading. IF you are using MPS (why? it's not normally needed!) then you need to also get the Taylor K-2941 or K02042 MPS interference remover add on kit for accurate readings. MPS will test as chlorine or bromine. Yes, if you want good pH stability. Read these to help you understand the effect of high TA on pH. The second one will explain what is going on and will also show you the ONLY way to lower TA and keep it low. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/
  15. start a new thread with your question. It will have a much better chance of getting answered. As you said this is a 6 year old thread and basically dead.
  16. I hose them off and then soak them in 1 cup of automatic dishwasher detergent powder (cheaper house brand is fine) to every 5 gallons of water in a container large enough to submerge the filter (I use a trash can) for an hour to overnight then hose off again. I also have a spare filter so I can swap out the dirty one and soak it and pop the clean one in so the spa is back in use. Same info applies to pool cartridge filters. Unicel has good info on cleaning filters on their website
  17. Please post a new full set of test results done with your Taylor K-2006 so I can have a look at what's going on and let me know what chemicals you have added within 3 days of the test and how much. I think that it mught just be normal chlroine loss and rising pH from your high TA but lets get you soaking. It is, after all, a hot tub and not a chemistry set!
  18. If I remember correctly your original test was done by your dealer and they use strips. Strips are not accurate and don't have the same resolution as your Taylor kit so the margain of error is much greater. . TA 50 - 70, pH around 7.6 or lower, pH will rise naturally due to outgassing of CO2 and stabilize around 7.7 - 7.8, don't lower it until it climbs to l8.0 and don't go below about 7.6 for the best pH stability. You could also just buy boric acid from an online supplier such as Amazon, DudaDiesel, Maxtite, The Chemistry Store, etc. Boric acid will have a slight pH lowering effect when added but the pH will quickly stabilize at the same levels as Gentle Spa. Also get some borate test strips. I have found that the LaMotte and the Industial Test Systems Poolcheck borate test strips easier to read than the strips from Hach, Taylor, and Aquachek. You will most likely need to order the strips from an online retailer. I get mine from Amazon. 1.5 Tablespoons of boric acid will raise borate by by 10 ppm in 100 gallons. You want to shoot for 50 ppm. You will lose borate by splashout so when the level drops to 30 ppm raise it back to 50. check the borate level monthly. I agree, keep it at 3 to 5 ppm. If you are doing that you really don't need the N2 as long as you watch your CYA levels and switch to bleach as soon as they hit about 30 ppm so you don't overstabilze with the dichlor, which adds 9 ppm CYA for ever 10 ppm FC added. inert fillers. Cal Hypo is very reactive and the stronger ones used commercially can spontaneously ignite and have been responsible for warehouse fires at one the manufacturing plants for cal hypo in the past. Cal hypo does not add CYA but does add 7 ppm CH for every 10 ppm FC added. You can use it but when your CH hits around 400 ppm switch to bleach. If you are lucky you will reach the 400 ppm at the same time you are due for your 3 month water change so it will be a non issue for you. (You ARE changing the water every 3 months, aren't you?) NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO This can create a yo yo effect with pH rising and falling. It's not how it's done! READ THIS!!!!!!: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ AND STUDY THIS!!!!!!!: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ They will explain the relationship between pH and TA and how to correctly adjust them!!!! Adding backing soda to increase TA should not cause This is why you want to do an acid demand test before adding acid to drop pH (or determining how much acid to add to drop pH to 7.0 before aerating when lowering TA.
  19. Post a full set of test results ( total bromine, pH, total alkalinity, and calcium hardness) and how they were done (strips, liquid reagents, store testing (and whether they used liquid reagents, strips, or strips or discs read in a machine) and we will have a much better idea of what's going on. In the meantime read these. They might give you some insight into why you are having problems. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/ and be sure to read this one. It explains the relationship between total alkalinity and pH and how to adjust them properly https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/28846-lowering-total-alkalinity-howto/ It seems that you are just chemicals in the water and don't understand why pH rises in a tub. Also, am moving your post to a more appropriate section of the forum.
  20. Depends. Are you using chlorine, bromine, silver/MPS (Nature 2 or other "mineral stick" , biguinide/peroxide (soft soak, BaquaSpa) or a different "sanitizer"? Post a full set of test results and also a list of chemicals that you have added and we can take it from there.
  21. Be aware that a saltwater system is usually a chlorine system. The chlorine is generated by electrolysis of the salt. If sodium bromide is used instead of sodium chloride then it becomes a bromine system. Chlorine is not a sensitizer, bromine can be. However, the usual culprit for those with 'sensitive skin' is MPS or non chlorine shock so that should be avoided. As far as less work, you won't have to worry about daily dosing of sanitizer or weekly shocking but the chemistry is the same. The water still needs to be tested and balanced and pH control is a bit more of an issue. You still have to maintain your calcium hardness, total alkalinity, and cyanuric acid if you are using chlorine. Cyanuric acid is a chlorine stabilizer. It is not used with bromine.
  22. How are you testing your water? Are your bromine granules pure sodium bromide or are they a mixture of dichlor and sodium bromide? Read this: https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/53410-how-to-use-bromine-3-step-method/
  23. Don't use the water wheel. It's only applicable to Plaster pools, not acrylic shell spas. pH is fine, don't worry about lowering it until it hits 8.0 TA is high, you were perfect at 60 ppm. Because of the extra aeration in spas pH will rise faster if the TA is higher or the pH is brought low. https://www.poolspaforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/52522-some-truths-about-ph-and-ta/ CH is fine, you want it high enough to help prevent foaming (sift water will foam more readily that hard). Anywhere between 130 to 200 ppm is a good range. If you are going to use N2 with MPS then follow the N2 instructions. If you are going to use plain chlorine (dichlor/bleach) then dump the N2. end color is blue, not purple. that is an intermediate color. Keep adding drops until the last drop produces no further color change and then don't count that last drop. These videos from Taylor might help: https://www.taylortechnologies.com/tv/page/231/k-2006-complete-kit-with-fas-dpd Most pool/spa stores don't have a lot of knowledge and much of what they know is wrong, Sadly it's common in the industry. Also, the main reason a pool/spa store will test your water for free is to sell you chemicals, many of which that you don't need. Their bottom line is selling chemicals, the more they sell the better their bottom line. Accurate testing is NOT what they want. Even those that use some type of colorimeter or strip reader will have the software set up in such a way as to maximize chemical sales. I used to work in the retail end of the industry and have seen this firsthand. Most pool/spa store employees have little or no training and what they do receive is often from product manufacturers, who also want to maximize product sales. I have even dealt with CPOs (Certified Pool Operators), who have to sturdy and take a test to get that certification so they can maintain pools and spas at commercial facilities such as hotels, water parks, community pools, etc.) that could not properly test a pool at a facility where I used to work. They were unable to read the comparator and were confusing the chlorine and bromine scales, which are different. There is another forum on the internet that I contribute to that calsl what has happened to you as being "pool stored". It's common which is why I recommend testing your own water with a good test kit and not strips.
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