Lowering Higher Electric Bills

[hd2000]

ScottWilliamson,

Your calcs would give the OP a bill of 23.80 at his rates and that seems more in line with what that spa should cost in that area and is in line with what the salesman said. The bill jumping over $50 is not the result of just the spa.

[PFC5]

ScottWilliamson,

Your calcs would give the OP a bill of 23.80 at his rates and that seems more in line with what that spa should cost in that area and is in line with what the salesman said. The bill jumping over $50 is not the result of just the spa.

I agree that the OP had a rate of 0.066/kWh so I come up with $23.76/month @ 360kWH for the spa per month. At my rate of 0.119/kWh mine would be around $42.84/month. I figured mine at add about $35.00 so this is in the range. The problem is the rate Scott is paying is 0.31/kWh which costs him $111.60/month. My spa only has a single 2 speed 5HP 56 Frame pump motor in mine and no circulator pump for filtering, so my estimated cost is about right for me at my electricity rate.

I think these dealers use a national average to understate the power cost in high power cost areas like California, so they can sell the spas. Fewer people will likely buy a spa with a 0.31/kWh cost to power them if they did the math, and why as consumers we need to not just look at the $ cost per month without knowing the rate they base it on. This is especially true in the high cost areas like California. In a high cost area but much more moderate temps than where I live, I would think that buying a spa with a lower power draining circulator pump is as important for high power cost areas as good insulation, and maybe more so if they live in a warm climate.

[njmurvin]

ScottWilliamson,

Your calcs would give the OP a bill of 23.80 at his rates and that seems more in line with what that spa should cost in that area and is in line with what the salesman said. The bill jumping over $50 is not the result of just the spa.

I agree that the OP had a rate of 0.066/kWh so I come up with $23.76/month @ 360kWH for the spa per month. At my rate of 0.119/kWh mine would be around $42.84/month. I figured mine at add about $35.00 so this is in the range. The problem is the rate Scott is paying is 0.31/kWh which costs him $111.60/month. My spa only has a single 2 speed 5HP 56 Frame pump motor in mine and no circulator pump for filtering, so my estimated cost is about right for me at my electricity rate.

I think these dealers use a national average to understate the power cost in high power cost areas like California, so they can sell the spas. Fewer people will likely buy a spa with a 0.31/kWh cost to power them if they did the math, and why as consumers we need to not just look at the $ cost per month without knowing the rate they base it on. This is especially true in the high cost areas like California. In a high cost area but much more moderate temps than where I live, I would think that buying a spa with a lower power draining circulator pump is as important for high power cost areas as good insulation, and maybe more so if they live in a warm climate.

And being one of those who has a .31/kwh marginal rate and a hot tub (Marquis Everyday 660) without a circulator pump, I am looking for ways to reduce power consumption. I have emailed Marquis for the specs on the motors and heater - no response yet. I don't recall how long the filtration ran on my 20+ year old Sundance, but I can guarantee it wasn't 4hrs/day. If it was more than 2hrs, I would be surprised - and I never had any issues of cloudy water or contamination with it. I also have a pool pump that runs 3-6hrs/day depending on season. It is not the low-energy type of motor. So, I am considering changing that as well as making adjustments to my spa filter schedule. Does anyone know what the minimum number of times a spa needs to "turn over" the water? My spa is 390 gallons. Once I know the GPM of my pump on low speed, I will know how long it takes to circulate the water. With the volts/amps of the motors, I can also project the power consumed for a given run time. Heating is harder to determine. But, my gut tells me the majority of the power is being used in the filtration. I know. Metering it directly is the only way I can know for sure. But, I don't how to do that without expensive metering equipment.

[PFC5]

You could do what Scott did and flip the breakers on EVERYTHING but the spa for an hour when it is not in filter mode, and then do it again in filter mode to see the draw, but that means no power for the rest of the house which at those rates cannot be a bad thing. lol If I had rates that high I would be doing this an hour or 2 per day just to get everyone in the house use to not having power to save costs.

I have my spa (no circ pump) set for 2hrs twice a day. If you look at the labels on the motors and get the pump model numbers you could probably Google all the info you need on their specs. That is the nice (and scary thing) about Google. It seems to know a lot.

[njmurvin]

If I had rates that high I would be doing this an hour or 2 per day just to get everyone in the house use to not having power to save costs.

And have to reset all the clocks and sprinkler timers (where the backup batteries have died)? I'd rather pay the electric bill! LOL

[hot_water]

This is from the invoice of the spa:

Jet pump 1 - 2 speed, 3 HP continuous duty, 5 HP breakdown torque

Jet pump 2 - 1 speed, 3 HP continuous duty, 5 HP breakdown torque

Jet pump 1 is used from the front jets and filtering. Jet pump 2 is used for the rear jets. The low speed on jet pump 1 does the filtering. When I look under the spa, there is a plug in for both jet pumps. They are rated 240V/12A. There is a plug in for a "circ pump" 120v/3A which is empty.

When I noticed the high bill, I tried to figure out what it was. I started to write down my hourly usage which is around .5KWh. From 5pm to 6pm, my usage was .5KWh. From 6pm to 7pm (during one of the one hour filtering periods) my usages was over 3.0KWh. From 7pm to 8pm, my usages was again around .5KWh.

The following day, I shutdown all the breakers to the house. No usage. I turned on only the spa breaker and ran a filter period for one hour. Usage as just a tad below 3KWh.

The following week, I wrote down three days of electrical usage (with spa).

Day 1 27 KWh

Day 2 31 KWh

Day 3 28 KWh

Avg 28.6 KWh

The next three day, I wrote down my electrical usage, but I drained the spa and left it off:

Day 1 17 KWh

Day 2 17 KWh

Day 3 16 KWh

Avg 16.6 KWh

So.. the spa add around 12 KWh per day to my usage.. or around 360 KWh per month

From my last bill.

224 KWh @ .27

136 KWh @ .24

$93.12 additional to run my spa.

I call the vendor and asked about the "circ pump" and if I can add a circulation pump for the filtering. They said they can not do that because it will mess up the back pressure or something like that.

All the testing was done with the heater turned down so I would not come on. Besides, the heater only comes on for about five to six minutes to heat it up.

My filter periods are 1 hour each, every six hours. 12am, 6am, 12pm, 6pm.

Scott, there is obviously a problem with either your spa or the measurements. Your 12A rated motors are not supposed to be drawing anywhere close to 12A on low... that's the high speed number. The low speed windings operate at a much lower current, typically around 4.4A. The low speed number might be (usually is) on the motor nameplate.

(240V x the motor amperage draw x the 4 hour run time)/1000 is the number of kW-hr your spa draws with the heater off. Maybe some small additional amount for the ozonator if you have one.

For your spa to be consuming 12 kW-hr per day, your current draw has to be 12000W-hr/(4 hr*240 V) = 12.5 Amps.

That's higher than the motor's current draw on high. There is something wrong. Either your spa has a problem causing the consumption to be very high, or "something" is going on to distort your measurements. It's simple math. The spa should not be drawing 12.5A to filter.

I also don't understand your comment about the heater coming on "for 5 to 6 minutes to heat it up". 5 to 6 minutes of heater isn't going to heat the water more than a degree F. Spa heaters heat the water at the rate of 5-8 degrees F per hour, give or take a little based on the water volume of your spa, and wattage of your heater.

Not wanting to be argumentative... just pointing out that your figures aren't making sense so there must be something else going on.

Do you have one of those new "smart meters"? We have gotten those here in San Jose and there are many reports that they are overcharging customers. I know that in my case, I can get daily usage graphs (by the hour) on the power company website. The thing has shown some huge and inexplicable usage spikes...when I've been away on business, with the house unoccupied! And NOT is synch with the spa at all!

HD2000, OP's bill cannot be based on his rates and Scott's measurements. Scott has told us that his measurement is based on a comparison of the spa filtering only v. not running. It completely ignores the heater (largest consumer of energy in a spa that's being kept warm), and the actual usage of the spa (a large amount of heat is lost when the cover is off, in addition to the use of the jets). So you really can't make use of Scott's data to predict OP's bill.

[hd2000]

Hot Water,

I don't care what the calcs were based upon. The OP is looking at a $52 jump at 6.61 cents per kwh. That comes to 787 kwh for that tub and that's way to much electricity. 300kwh to 400kwh max for that tub in the winter. Running a Sundance Marin for years, my bill only jumped about $20-$25 per month in the winter. It's a smaller tub than the Cameo, but not by much and at the rates given, a $52 increase is way out of line with what that spa would cost to run. 787 kwh is a lot of electricity and I definately can use my own bill to predict what it SHOULD cost to operate.

[hot_water]

Hot Water,

I don't care what the calcs were based upon. The OP is looking at a $52 jump at 6.61 cents per kwh. That comes to 787 kwh for that tub and that's way to much electricity. 300kwh to 400kwh max for that tub in the winter. Running a Sundance Marin for years, my bill only jumped about $20-$25 per month in the winter. It's a smaller tub than the Cameo, but not by much and at the rates given, a $52 increase is way out of line with what that spa would cost to run. 787 kwh is a lot of electricity and I definately can use my own bill to predict what it SHOULD cost to operate.

hd2000,

I agree with you that OP's spa, at his very low electric rates, should be costing him much less than he's reporting. No argument from me on that. I'm responding to your statement:

ScottWilliamson,

Your calcs would give the OP a bill of 23.80 at his rates and that seems more in line with what that spa should cost in that area and is in line with what the salesman said. The bill jumping over $50 is not the result of just the spa.

All I am pointing out is that you have to care how Scott's measurements were made before you can make a statement like that. Scott's data would NOT give OP a bill of $23.80, because Scott's calcs only consider energy used to filter - it does not include heater, or energy loss when using the spa. Both of these are generally higher than the filtration energy use. So, if we use Scott's numbers and OP's rates as you suggested, with nearly $24 strictly for filtering, we would have to conclude that OP's spa could easily be very expensive to operate, just as OP is reporting. Do you see my point? Using Scott's data actually argues against the point you are trying to make.

However, as I pointed out, Scott's numbers of 12 kW-hr per day for filtration can't be correct unless there is something wrong, either with his spa or his measurements. One spa motor on low speed for 4 hours per day can't use that much energy. I actually, and this is quite rare, agree with Roger's estimate of $30-35, since OP's rates are dirt cheap.

There are many factors that play into spa costs, including temperature, the cover, wind, and the factors I mentioned in my earlier post on steps you can take to minimize energy use. If you're at $30-35 in the coldest months, you are probably going to have an average cost of $18 or so on the year, which seems reasonable for OP's electric rates. Again, the numbers could vary a couple bucks either way, but no matter since that would be a cheap spa bill.

[ScottWilliamson]

This is from the invoice of the spa:

Jet pump 1 - 2 speed, 3 HP continuous duty, 5 HP breakdown torque

Jet pump 2 - 1 speed, 3 HP continuous duty, 5 HP breakdown torque

Jet pump 1 is used from the front jets and filtering. Jet pump 2 is used for the rear jets. The low speed on jet pump 1 does the filtering. When I look under the spa, there is a plug in for both jet pumps. They are rated 240V/12A. There is a plug in for a "circ pump" 120v/3A which is empty.

When I noticed the high bill, I tried to figure out what it was. I started to write down my hourly usage which is around .5KWh. From 5pm to 6pm, my usage was .5KWh. From 6pm to 7pm (during one of the one hour filtering periods) my usages was over 3.0KWh. From 7pm to 8pm, my usages was again around .5KWh.

The following day, I shutdown all the breakers to the house. No usage. I turned on only the spa breaker and ran a filter period for one hour. Usage as just a tad below 3KWh.

The following week, I wrote down three days of electrical usage (with spa).

Day 1 27 KWh

Day 2 31 KWh

Day 3 28 KWh

Avg 28.6 KWh

The next three day, I wrote down my electrical usage, but I drained the spa and left it off:

Day 1 17 KWh

Day 2 17 KWh

Day 3 16 KWh

Avg 16.6 KWh

So.. the spa add around 12 KWh per day to my usage.. or around 360 KWh per month

From my last bill.

224 KWh @ .27

136 KWh @ .24

$93.12 additional to run my spa.

I call the vendor and asked about the "circ pump" and if I can add a circulation pump for the filtering. They said they can not do that because it will mess up the back pressure or something like that.

All the testing was done with the heater turned down so I would not come on. Besides, the heater only comes on for about five to six minutes to heat it up.

My filter periods are 1 hour each, every six hours. 12am, 6am, 12pm, 6pm.

Scott, there is obviously a problem with either your spa or the measurements. Your 12A rated motors are not supposed to be drawing anywhere close to 12A on low... that's the high speed number. The low speed windings operate at a much lower current, typically around 4.4A. The low speed number might be (usually is) on the motor nameplate.

(240V x the motor amperage draw x the 4 hour run time)/1000 is the number of kW-hr your spa draws with the heater off. Maybe some small additional amount for the ozonator if you have one.

For your spa to be consuming 12 kW-hr per day, your current draw has to be 12000W-hr/(4 hr*240 V) = 12.5 Amps.

That's higher than the motor's current draw on high. There is something wrong. Either your spa has a problem causing the consumption to be very high, or "something" is going on to distort your measurements. It's simple math. The spa should not be drawing 12.5A to filter.

I also don't understand your comment about the heater coming on "for 5 to 6 minutes to heat it up". 5 to 6 minutes of heater isn't going to heat the water more than a degree F. Spa heaters heat the water at the rate of 5-8 degrees F per hour, give or take a little based on the water volume of your spa, and wattage of your heater.

Not wanting to be argumentative... just pointing out that your figures aren't making sense so there must be something else going on.

Do you have one of those new "smart meters"? We have gotten those here in San Jose and there are many reports that they are overcharging customers. I know that in my case, I can get daily usage graphs (by the hour) on the power company website. The thing has shown some huge and inexplicable usage spikes...when I've been away on business, with the house unoccupied! And NOT is synch with the spa at all!

HD2000, OP's bill cannot be based on his rates and Scott's measurements. Scott has told us that his measurement is based on a comparison of the spa filtering only v. not running. It completely ignores the heater (largest consumer of energy in a spa that's being kept warm), and the actual usage of the spa (a large amount of heat is lost when the cover is off, in addition to the use of the jets). So you really can't make use of Scott's data to predict OP's bill.

The spa does have an ozonator. As far as heating up 5 to 6 minutes... I meant when the filter period starts at 6p, it only takes the heater about 5 minutes to bring the temperature back up to 102 from the last filter period (12pm). The spa is well insulated and has a well insulated cover.

I was finally able to get the dealer to come out and look at the spa. He connected a meter to the spa and saw it was using 2700 watts when running in filter mode. When he ran the pump in high speed mode, it also used 2700 watts. He said that should not be and it going to get a new motor and replace it free of charge for me. In the mean time, he suggested filtering less and adding a little more dicor. I have dropped the filter periods from 4 - 1 hour filters to 2 - 1 hour filters. My usages has dropped about 5 KWh per day. But it now takes about 15 to 20 minutes to heat the water back up to 102 at the start of the filter period.

We do not have Smart Meters yet in my neighborhood. Suppose to get one by Nov 2011. But I know people that have received them and been hit with a shocker of a bill.. one of my co workers was hit with a bill 3x from the previous month.

[hot_water]

This is from the invoice of the spa:

Jet pump 1 - 2 speed, 3 HP continuous duty, 5 HP breakdown torque

Jet pump 2 - 1 speed, 3 HP continuous duty, 5 HP breakdown torque

Jet pump 1 is used from the front jets and filtering. Jet pump 2 is used for the rear jets. The low speed on jet pump 1 does the filtering. When I look under the spa, there is a plug in for both jet pumps. They are rated 240V/12A. There is a plug in for a "circ pump" 120v/3A which is empty.

When I noticed the high bill, I tried to figure out what it was. I started to write down my hourly usage which is around .5KWh. From 5pm to 6pm, my usage was .5KWh. From 6pm to 7pm (during one of the one hour filtering periods) my usages was over 3.0KWh. From 7pm to 8pm, my usages was again around .5KWh.

The following day, I shutdown all the breakers to the house. No usage. I turned on only the spa breaker and ran a filter period for one hour. Usage as just a tad below 3KWh.

The following week, I wrote down three days of electrical usage (with spa).

Day 1 27 KWh

Day 2 31 KWh

Day 3 28 KWh

Avg 28.6 KWh

The next three day, I wrote down my electrical usage, but I drained the spa and left it off:

Day 1 17 KWh

Day 2 17 KWh

Day 3 16 KWh

Avg 16.6 KWh

So.. the spa add around 12 KWh per day to my usage.. or around 360 KWh per month

From my last bill.

224 KWh @ .27

136 KWh @ .24

$93.12 additional to run my spa.

I call the vendor and asked about the "circ pump" and if I can add a circulation pump for the filtering. They said they can not do that because it will mess up the back pressure or something like that.

All the testing was done with the heater turned down so I would not come on. Besides, the heater only comes on for about five to six minutes to heat it up.

My filter periods are 1 hour each, every six hours. 12am, 6am, 12pm, 6pm.

Scott, there is obviously a problem with either your spa or the measurements. Your 12A rated motors are not supposed to be drawing anywhere close to 12A on low... that's the high speed number. The low speed windings operate at a much lower current, typically around 4.4A. The low speed number might be (usually is) on the motor nameplate.

(240V x the motor amperage draw x the 4 hour run time)/1000 is the number of kW-hr your spa draws with the heater off. Maybe some small additional amount for the ozonator if you have one.

For your spa to be consuming 12 kW-hr per day, your current draw has to be 12000W-hr/(4 hr*240 V) = 12.5 Amps.

That's higher than the motor's current draw on high. There is something wrong. Either your spa has a problem causing the consumption to be very high, or "something" is going on to distort your measurements. It's simple math. The spa should not be drawing 12.5A to filter.

I also don't understand your comment about the heater coming on "for 5 to 6 minutes to heat it up". 5 to 6 minutes of heater isn't going to heat the water more than a degree F. Spa heaters heat the water at the rate of 5-8 degrees F per hour, give or take a little based on the water volume of your spa, and wattage of your heater.

Not wanting to be argumentative... just pointing out that your figures aren't making sense so there must be something else going on.

Do you have one of those new "smart meters"? We have gotten those here in San Jose and there are many reports that they are overcharging customers. I know that in my case, I can get daily usage graphs (by the hour) on the power company website. The thing has shown some huge and inexplicable usage spikes...when I've been away on business, with the house unoccupied! And NOT is synch with the spa at all!

HD2000, OP's bill cannot be based on his rates and Scott's measurements. Scott has told us that his measurement is based on a comparison of the spa filtering only v. not running. It completely ignores the heater (largest consumer of energy in a spa that's being kept warm), and the actual usage of the spa (a large amount of heat is lost when the cover is off, in addition to the use of the jets). So you really can't make use of Scott's data to predict OP's bill.

The spa does have an ozonator. As far as heating up 5 to 6 minutes... I meant when the filter period starts at 6p, it only takes the heater about 5 minutes to bring the temperature back up to 102 from the last filter period (12pm). The spa is well insulated and has a well insulated cover.

I was finally able to get the dealer to come out and look at the spa. He connected a meter to the spa and saw it was using 2700 watts when running in filter mode. When he ran the pump in high speed mode, it also used 2700 watts. He said that should not be and it going to get a new motor and replace it free of charge for me. In the mean time, he suggested filtering less and adding a little more dicor. I have dropped the filter periods from 4 - 1 hour filters to 2 - 1 hour filters. My usages has dropped about 5 KWh per day. But it now takes about 15 to 20 minutes to heat the water back up to 102 at the start of the filter period.

We do not have Smart Meters yet in my neighborhood. Suppose to get one by Nov 2011. But I know people that have received them and been hit with a shocker of a bill.. one of my co workers was hit with a bill 3x from the previous month.

Scott, thanks for the follow up. That result (using 2700W on either high or low speed) explains your high energy usage. I'm surprised that the motor isn't smoking.

Your explanation of the "5 to 6" minutes now makes perfect sense. One would expect that with your reduction of the number of filter cycles from 4 to 2, the heater should work at least twice as long. In fact, it will have to work a little more than twice as long, since the energy the pump puts into the moving water, a significant portion of which is dissipated as thermal energy into the water, has been cut in half due to the reduction of the number of filter cycles. So maybe 15 to 20 minutes is reasonable.

Regarding smart meters, I thought that all the complaints were baseless - just the normal sorts of complaints from the folks that complain about everything. But I've had one for about 6 months, and think they're bogus. The data is showing no effect from the spa filter/heat cycles or spa use at all. I use it at the same time within a tolerance of about 15 minutes, and have my filter cycles starting at 8am and 8pm. So that makes no sense. But then the thing will show enormous spikes (that correspond to nothing) that last for an hour. I am away from the house at least a couple nights per week, use natural gas for space heating and have energy efficient refrig, so unless the cat is having his pals over for a spa party I am fairly well convinced that the smart meter is ripping me off.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

Also, when looking at bills, dont forget the month you fill the spa and have to heat the water is going to be higher than the following months, even more so in the winter in cold months because the ground water is very cold going into the spa.

[PFC5]

Also, when looking at bills, dont forget the month you fill the spa and have to heat the water is going to be higher than the following months, even more so in the winter in cold months because the ground water is very cold going into the spa.

My water was showing up at 42 degrees in November according to the temp gauge in the spa itself when i first added water. That is WHY I now fill it with my house water heater. It heats it $5-10.00 cheaper, and I also get the benefit of being able to go in the spa right away after a fill too.

[Roger]

Also, when looking at bills, dont forget the month you fill the spa and have to heat the water is going to be higher than the following months, even more so in the winter in cold months because the ground water is very cold going into the spa.

My water was showing up at 42 degrees in November according to the temp gauge in the spa itself when i first added water. That is WHY I now fill it with my house water heater. It heats it $5-10.00 cheaper, and I also get the benefit of being able to go in the spa right away after a fill too.

How do you get enough out of your house hot water heater? My 50 gallon heater is used up with 300-350 to go and the water ends up only a degree higher.

[PFC5]

Also, when looking at bills, dont forget the month you fill the spa and have to heat the water is going to be higher than the following months, even more so in the winter in cold months because the ground water is very cold going into the spa.

My water was showing up at 42 degrees in November according to the temp gauge in the spa itself when i first added water. That is WHY I now fill it with my house water heater. It heats it $5-10.00 cheaper, and I also get the benefit of being able to go in the spa right away after a fill too.

How do you get enough out of your house hot water heater? My 50 gallon heater is used up with 300-350 to go and the water ends up only a degree higher.

My Boilermate water heater (it has a lifetime warranty on it as well and I just got a free better replacement after 21 years last year with new digital controls for no cost but had to pay $300.00 for the reinstall & removal of the old one to a local tech) is only 41 gallons, but it has a very fast recovery time because it is just another zone on my boiler. In the winter while the boiler is already running to heat my house it costs next to nothing to heat the water. What I do is I raise the water temp in it to 135 degrees and then shut off the faucet several times during the fill for the temp to recover and I end up right around 100 degrees when I am done filling it. It takes only about 1-1.51 hour to fill my 450 gallon spa.

You can use something like this to connect a hose to the faucet closest to your spa:

Hose & Faucet Adapter kit

Or you can get something from a local store that is a waterbed fill & drain kit like this:

Waterbed Fill & Drain kit

If you cannot find one locally then check out a local aquarium store for something like this:

Gravel vac kit for aquariums

What type of water heater do you have? Is it electric, oil or gas fired? If it is electric it likely will not save any money but could get the tub up to temp at least right away, although they have slow recovery times. But if you have a oil or gas fired water heater they recover much faster and likely are about $10.00 cheaper to heat depending on what your cost per KwH electricity cost is. My electricity cost is $0.119/kWh. For those in California where they can pay up to 0.31/kWh, the savings can be even greater and help keep you in a lower tier at a lower rate by using a oil or gas fired how water heater.

Another reason to have something like this handy is to help replace some of the cold water if/when the heater in the spa doesn't heat the water in the winter to help keep it from freezing. By having it on hand now it will be an insurance policy on a spa freezing if/when the spa stops heating in the winter by exchanging the water. Even if the pumps do not work you could likely put the hot water hose in the filter inlet pipe to keep running some hot water through the pipes also.