hd2000

I do not know why a couple of people told you to skip the ACE, but I suspect they don't have it, and don't know much about it. If they did have it, they probably would be telling you it's worth it. You won't find many posts from actual users of ACE that are telling people not to get it. I also believe you will find the overwhelming opinion of long time spa users is to stick with chlorine. Those of you that feel ACE should be skipped, please give your reason for that opinion. I'd be more than happy to correct any misconceptions you have about the ACE system. I've owned spas for many, many years, and the ACE system is the best innovation they have added to a tub in a very long time. I shock once a week and that's it. What do you do with your tub?

I'll comment on the makes you are looking at. D1, HotSprings and Marquis are very good makes. I really wouldn't rate one as being better than another. All that you mentioned are top level tubs, that I would consider to be very comparable in quality. I can't say for Caldera because they are not sold in my area. Before you make a decision, WET TEST! That spa that you thought was perfect, will turn out to be uncomfortable, the jets aren't right, the seats are to low, whatever, and the only way to know that is to WET TEST. Pick a dealer you are comfortable with. We have had 3 spas in our lives and the latest one was purchased just last year. We ruled out a Sundance for the simple reason we truely didn't like the dealer. Sundance makes a great spa, but I don't want to deal with the local dealer if a problem appears. His service sucks. By the way, the tubs we have had over the years are 2- HS tubs, and 1 Sundance. Our current tub is a HS and I will tell you that if you go with the HS spa, seriously consider the ACE and getting it with 220. The ACE will make water care easier and the 220 won't really be more in usage costs, but it will add to the convieniance especially if you live in a colder climate. If you live in a warm climate, then the 220 isn't as important.

Sailing Faith, I think that the location has a lot to do with it. I get regular temps in the teens in the winter time and if you are using the spa in a warmer climate, you're correct that the temp will drop very little. Put that 110 Sovereign in NE Ohio in the middle of the winter and I can guarantee you will see the temp drop several degrees during use and it would take a lot longer to get it back up to speed. I'd almost be willing to bet that even if you didn't turn it on and just opened up the lid, it would drop a degree or two after 20 minutes or so even though the heater would be running.

I'm no engineer, but your deck is very similar to mine and I've had a tub on mine for 17 years and it hasn't budged a inch in that time. I've had a tub as big as a Sundance Marin on it. My dealer sent inspectors to look at my deck and wiring prior to delivery to insure it was adequate, which it was. I believe the guys that did the inspections were a building contractor and an electrician, but I wouldn't swear to it. I know the electrical guy was a licensed electrician, but I'm not sure about the other guy. You might want to check with whoever you are getting your tub from. They may offer the same service. It didn't cost me anything and my dealer required it. I know when I built the deck, I looked at the building codes and then overbuilt the deck. If code called for 4x4 posts, I used 6x6. If it said 2x8, I used 2x10. If it said max span 16 feet, I spanned no more than 8. That sort of thing. I also used 2x6 decking as you have.

PH adjustment every once in a while and that's about it. I shock once a week. Initially, I tested all the time to see how it was doing, but after a while, it was pretty pointless. Now I test about once a week and I'll have to add a tablespoon of PH up or down every now and again. By the way, in case you didn't already know, junk the test strips and get yourself a Taylor kit to do your testing. I keep a spreadsheet of my test results and what I added, when I changed/cleaned filters and that sort of thing. It helps me a lot when I refill. Here is a example of what I've done as far as chemicals go this month. On the 6th and the 18th I added a tablespoon of PH down. That's it except for the weekly shock. My FC has never tested higher than 6 or lower than 2 since I got the tub. I've never added any salt between water changes. My water changes are about every 4 months. With all my previous tubs, I changed about every 3 months. We probably average using the tub 4 or 5 times a week for about 30 minutes with the jets on all but maybe 5 minutes and it's rare that there are more than my wife and I in the tub. Occasionally, my niece or my sister-in-law will come over and use it.

All my dealer had to say about it was that so far nobody that had one has called for service and they have had no problems on the ones in the test soak tubs at the store. Nobody said it would only last 3 years and I really don't know how they could. As I said, it's not even a big deal to me. If I have to replace the cell after 3 years, I probably will. If I decide it's to expensive to replace, I'll simply go back to what I've been doing for years and what everyone else is doing. Heck the amount of chemicals I'd buy in place of what ACE is providing over a 3 year period would put a good dent in that $300 anyway. The difference would probably be worth it to me.

HD is it true the diode for the ACE system only lasts 3 years and needs to be replaced at a cost of $400? I really like the ACE system but if it needs to be replaced every 3 years it seems like a waste to me. I can't say because mine isn't that old and the ACE system hasn't been around that long. I don't know how anyone can say it will only last 3 years since the system hasn't even been in use that long. Personally, I'm not worried about it. At the very worst, I'd simply have to go about my spa maintenence just as I have for the past 20 years. Most of the negative comments I have read are from people that don't even have it or are trying to relate it to some negative experiance they or someone they heard about had with a pool system. The ACE system is far different from salt water chlorine generators that are found in pools, but the concept is far from new. Check out places like Australia where they have been using them in pools almost exclusively for decades. If you think it would be a waste, don't get it. I got it and so far, I'm glad I did and I really don't expect to have to replace the cell in 3 years. I've had a HS spa in the past and going by what I know about HS, I expect the cell to last longer than 3 years, but if it goes after 3 years, I'll probably replace it because it has worked that well for me. You may feel differently about it, but I'm loving it and it's been worth it to me.

I've got the Prodigy, but mine is 220. It only drops about a degree in mid-winter if we are in it for 20-30 minutes. During the summer we set the temp a little lower and it barely drops at all no matter how long we are using it. When the temp begins to drop and the heater comes on, it discharges a substantial amount of hot water into the tub to keep the temp relatively stable. If it were a larger tub, you would probably see a greater drop. We have been in the tub for up to an hour and it's never dropped more than 2 degrees during a Ohio winter. Every tub I've had (3) has been 220 and I feel that going 220 vs 110 is worth it. My tub heats while I'm using it and if you stick with 110 it won't. Also, my tub heats a lot faster than a 110. That may or may not be important to you. The benefit for me is that when I change water, the tub is heated and ready for use later that same day. I've got the ozonator and ACE which is what I wanted. My wife and I are very pleased with the Prodigy. We have had larger tubs in the past, but at this stage with children gone and all that, the Prodigy is the perfect size for us and the ACE system to this point has worked wonderfully.

In your owners manual, or maybe the ACE manual, you will see that it's flashing as a reminder, not because of some malfunction or anything like that. To stop the flashing, go to the set-up menu and change the spa size and then change it back to whatever it's supposed to be. For example your spa should have a spa size setting of 6. Change it to 5, then change it back to 6 again. The flashing will (should) stop and the monthly maintenence message (USE)will go away. I use it to remind me to clean filters and things like that more than anything. I also do a salt test to see if my level is starting to get low. I believe it's all in the ACE manual. I just noticed, you said nothing about getting the monthly maintenence message. If the icon is rapidly flashing you may require dealer service.

The salt ppm in the tub isn't enough to do any harm to any folage you may discharge your spa water onto. I don't shut mine down at all before refilling and my grass hasn't died yet and my tomatoes continued to grow.

I agree with DaveR. I went through this installing my newest spa and when I checked the code where I live it is less than 50 feet and more than 5 feet. The installation instructions that came with the spa simply said it should be in the vicinity of the spa but not closer than 5 feet from the waters edge.

I don't have anything to say about your rash problems,because I'm no dermatologist,and I don't know anything about it, but I will say something about the ACE system. I've got it in my tub and I absolutely love it. It has cut the required maintenance down to the point that about all I do anymore is test the water, see that everything is still good, and close the lid. I haven't added anything to my tub since November except for maybe a tablespoon or two of PH down. I shock just as I always did before getting a tub with the ACE system, but my water quality is the best I've ever had. My previous tubs were either chlorine or bromine and I would occasionally have a little of a dry skin rash type problem, but those days are past. I've had zero skin problems since I got my HS tub with the ACE system. I've always used a Taylor kit for testing and with the ACE system, I've found I have far less water balancing issues than I had in the past. I'd read some things that the PH would drift with a salt water system, but I haven't seen that much at all. My water is more stable now than it's ever been.

I'm on high blood pressure meds and I tub almost every day and have been for years. I've been on my meds for 12 years now and I've had a tub the whole time. If your meds are controlling it, you shouldn't have a problem.

I wouldn't worry to much about the ACE cell at this point. It's not like you have been abusing it for months on end or something like that. PoolSpaGuy is offering a good suggestion to possibly clean the cell. Did your dealer give you all the ACE system literature that explains the procedures? Water chemestry seems really daunting when you first get a spa, but soon, you will be comfortable in what you are doing to your water and you won't give the maintenece a second thought. At this point, my only other suggestion is to keep some sort of record of what you add, how much, and when. Also it's helpful to keep a record of all your testing results. At least it's helpful for me. I've got a simple spreadsheet where I have a column to record the date, test results for each individual test, and a comments cell where I record what I added or did. For example I'll record all my test results, then may make a comment that I cleaned or changed the filters, or added a teaspoon of PH down, or maybe added a couple gallons of water, or whatever else I may have done. It helps me keep tabs on everything and helps me to know what to add when I make a water change. For me anyway, it also helps me to "remember" the last time I cleaned the filters or changed the water or cleaned the ACE cell or cleaned the cover, and things like that that you really don't do all the time. I don't really know if others do that, but it helps me out a lot and it only takes a minute to do.

I'm probably adding about about 8 gal or so per month in the winter time. In the summer, it's less. I don't know exactly why, but I suspect it has to do with the difference in air temp compared to the heated water temp. I think if the water in the tub was colder, it would evaporate less, but I'm guessing. Throw in relative humidity somewhere in the equation.

6 Tbl of PH down isn't a lot in your tub. My Ph in my well water is extreamly high along with very high alkalinity and I add about a cup and a half of PH down to get mine right when I refill. Once you get the balance right, you probably won't have to add more than a couple more tablespoons of PH down between refills. If you have very high levels to start as I did, don't try adding it all at once. Maybe a cup every day or so, then recheck before adding more. Once you start getting within a reasonable level, you can add less each time till you get it right. Try not to overcorrect. Since you've already added some PH down, just keep on adding more till you get it right. Keep track of how much of everything you add so the next time you refill, you don't have to do so much guessing. If it takes 15 tablespoons to get it right this time, when you refill, add maybe 12 or so, test, then see how close you are. After a refill or 2, you will know exactly how much of to add to get your water close. The original PH, alkalinity, and everything else in my water fluctuates a little from refill to refill, so thats why I'm saying to get conservatively close, then fine tune. That's the way I've been doing it for years, and my spa is always crystal clear. You can also take a water sample to most dealers and they should be able to tell you approximately how much of each chemical you should need to add to balance it given your tub size. In my area, all the dealers will do it for free.

PoolSpaGuy is right. Get your water chemestry right first, then no problems and there is little little maintenance later. Get the total alkalinity, ph and calcium hardness correct and the rest is easy. The suggestion to get the Taylor kit is also a good one. It is much better and more accurate than strips ever will be and it makes your tub maintenance easier as you get familiar with what needs to be done. By the way, the ACE system is great. I love mine.

Hot Water, I don't care what the calcs were based upon. The OP is looking at a $52 jump at 6.61 cents per kwh. That comes to 787 kwh for that tub and that's way to much electricity. 300kwh to 400kwh max for that tub in the winter. Running a Sundance Marin for years, my bill only jumped about $20-$25 per month in the winter. It's a smaller tub than the Cameo, but not by much and at the rates given, a $52 increase is way out of line with what that spa would cost to run. 787 kwh is a lot of electricity and I definately can use my own bill to predict what it SHOULD cost to operate.

ScottWilliamson, Your calcs would give the OP a bill of 23.80 at his rates and that seems more in line with what that spa should cost in that area and is in line with what the salesman said. The bill jumping over $50 is not the result of just the spa.

this...without hooking a meter up to spa everything is pure guesses and speculation It might be speculation, but that jump at his rates is way out of line for that spa. If the OP is comparing a October or November bill to a December bill and does not have electric heat, there is something else involved because the spa alone is not causing the jump. Others have given some reasonable, and some not so reasonable ideas to lower whatever the spa cost is, but a new Sundance Cameo isn't going to run you that much at 6.6 cents a kwh. If you are using it for several hours per day and occasionally leaving the cover off, OK, but anything near normal use isn't going to make your bill jump like that.

To begin with, you can not compare monthly bills without factoring in the temperature. If you are comparing last year to this year, you still neeed to consider the temp. I live close to you and I've had a spa for many years. I can tell you that ON AVERAGE during the winter months, my spa costs me about $20 a month to run. This winter, I have a smaller spa than in the past, but my $20 number is from running a Sundance Marin. This has been a colder winter than average so far. For example, we have had 18 days where the temperature has been below average this month. In December, we had 22 days that were below average. If I were you, I'd probably just say the hell with it. A thicker cover really will not save you much in the long run especially when you factor in the original cost. The thermal blanket may be a better option and I'd totally forget about trying to add any more insulation to the tub cabinet itself. I think over the long haul, your cost to run the spa will balance out to a number that's much lower than the $52 you see now, which all things considered, seems way high even with the below average winter we've had. I don't believe I've ever in over 25 years of spa ownership paid that much to run my tub. Checking the filter cycles is another good suggestion.

"what this all comes down to is what works well for us both." Bingo! You hit the nail square on the head. You already did enough due diligance in selecting the makes you wanted to consider and you were picking from the top of the line manufacturers. After that, it's all a matter of getting the spa that works best for you. It does not matter if you get a D1, Sundance, or Hot Spring. They are all top notch and I doubt you would go wrong with any of them from a quality perspective. What does matter is how well the models you select work for you and how well the dealer treats their customers.

You definately need to wet test if you can. A spa can look really good to you, but when filled with water and running it may not be all that you thought it would be and conversly, a spa you think may not do, will be just the ticket. The seat comfort, the way the jets stimulate and all that makes a big difference, and what feels right for you, may not be right for me. A tub can look good, but not feel all that good or at least feel the way you imagined it would. Besides that, wet testing makes spa shopping one of the best shopping experiances you can have! Dealer service and support and the comfort level you have with that dealer plays a big roll to. One of the reasons I didn't get a Sundance this time around was because of the dealer, not the tub. If you had concerns that you may not be looking at quality spas, relax. HS, Sundance, and D1 are at the top of everyones list.

Having owned 2 Hot Spring and 1 Sundance spa I can say that IMO, they are in the same league. I've looked at the D1 spas numerous times, but the styling and layout have never been what I was looking for, but the quality was equal to the HS and Sundance spas. I would put those three all at the same level. I know absolutely nothing about Master Spas. My opinion is that the previous 3 are all top of the line spas. As was previously mentioned, you get what you pay for and the price range you mentioned seems in the ball park.

Well Dr Spa, that should just about cover it!