Electrical Usage

[Chas]

A friend who is the chief electrician at a large local institution tells me that spas are power hogs and that $100 a month may no be out of the question. I don't know what to believe.

I get the same treatment from our local power company. A customer or shopper will call and ask about a high electric bill, and they will fire off their pat answer, "Spas are energy hogs."

Thing is, I have sold these things for twenty years, metered tons of them, and spoken with hundreds of happy owners. They are not ALL energy hogs. The better they are built and insulated, the less they cost to run. I have sold tubs with poor insulation - they cost a bunch to run. I have sold mostly HotSpring, and they just don't consume much power.

I would love to get one of those folks from the power company to come meter a couple of tubs in actual use. I think they are going on ages-old info from who knows what brand of old tub somewhere.

But, as you say, there are no government energy consumption figures available for the various make and model.

[jmendoza17]

Chas,

The lack of research is what makes it so perpelxing. I noted that Hot Spring makes more claims about low energy use and based on what I saw of their spas, its probably true. I appreciate your experience and hope I end with the $1-a-day spa cost over time.

[New NW tub owner]

Right it seems to be a combination of things including the cheap inefficient 115 V circ pump that was supposed to be 240 V. Swapping that will then use half the energy that it's using now and therefore half the cost that it's costing me now to run the piece of crap that's in there. Even if it's only 15 bucks a month difference it still adds up over time. It was hydrospa that told me the ozone is supposed to shut off. They said that is how it's supposed to be programmed into the balboa board. I don't know maybe they are wrong about their own spas. I have also been told by multiple sources that if a contact is stuck on in the circuit board then the heater could be running at 120 instead of 240 and this would not trip the breaker or anything else. If this is the case then the heater would be working harder and on most of the time. This could be causing the large kwh usage. My electrician did the math and told me that this is one problem that it could be and the math works out that the heater could be on most of the time. That's one of the reasons they are swapping the spa pack. The blower and jet pumps seem to be coming on when they are scheduled to be. My electrician also did the math based on their ratings for the heater, ozone, circ pump and the other 2 pumps on for approximately 2 hrs a day. If the heater is on nonstop than this would amount to around 350.00 a month at my electricity rate which is not to far off my bill. Hopefully the tech that was here yesterday will fix the problem after the 240 V circ pump, ozonator and new spa pack goes in. After 24 hrs of insulating the tub, it seems to be helping. I am going to monitor my daily usage for a month and this will tell me just how much better.

You are right that the PE2 comes with a 240v recirc pump. All of the pumps on the PE2 are 240v. The blower and ozonator are 115v. The controller on the PE2 will not even work with a 115v pump because it would apply 240v to motor windings that were designed for 115v and would just overheat 'burn out' and immediately stop. But even if it did work with the 115v pump, it STILL would not use the 80 kwh per day you mentioned because the recirc pump is a little pump that cannot absorb that much power. Power is watts. Volts times amps. If your pump is running at a lower voltage, it would draw more amperage but the power would stay the same...50 watts. Finally, there is nothing inherently wrong with a 115v recirc pump. For a 1/15 hp pump, 115v is just as good as 240 v. Balboa just makes all of the pumps 240v for convenience and simplicity.

The ONLY thing that can be using 80 kwh per day is the 4kw heater and it would have to be running nearly 24 hours per day. You should be able to see that. If the heater is putting 4,000 watts into the water every hour, it has to be going somewhere. Either the heat is rising out of the water as steam due to a missing/badly-leaking cover or the heater is 'stuck' on and overheating the water by a lot.

It was hydrospa that told me the ozone is supposed to shut off. They said that is how it's supposed to be programmed into the balboa board. I don't know maybe they are wrong about their own spas.

If Hydrospa told you the ozonator is supposed to shut off on the PE2 then they are wrong about their own spas. The ozonator is basically just a light bulb but it is supposed to run whenever the recirc pump is running. On the PE2, they both run 24/7 to maintain water quality. Most newer spas have a 24/7 recirc pump operation.

[Brent Hamm]

I have the meter on my tubs line since last night. Will take the average reading after 24 hours and post here.

Sadly its freaking cold out!! -30c (-22f) right now and was colder at night. Windchill was -42c (-43.6f).

I can take this thing home when ever i want so will do some more tests. Apparently is worth over $3,000.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I'll be curious to hear if the new spa pack lowers the energy consumption. From everything I have read, 10kwh is about normal for spa energy conumption in a day.

I'll be curious as well because for the most part saving energy is tied to insulating effectivity so I'm not sure how a controller change will effectively lower your power usage.

[deandog]

I'll be curious as well because for the most part saving energy is tied to insulating effectivity so I'm not sure how a controller change will effectively lower your power usage.

I don't know insulation doesn't seem to be helping much after monitoring usage for last 3 days. It's still using a lot of power. Around 6.5 bucks today, which is better than 8 though. It's really cold here right now. Apparently it's illegal in Canada to not have the ozone shut off when we are in the tub. There is supposed to be regulations about the gas, so they are to shut off even if you turn on a light. I was told this is a defect in the spa pack?

I don't know insulation doesn't seem to be helping much after monitoring usage for last 3 days. It's still using a lot of power. Around 6.5 bucks today, which is better than 8 though. It's really cold here right now. Apparently it's illegal in Canada to not have the ozone shut off when we are in the tub. There is supposed to be regulations about the gas, so they are to shut off even if you turn on a light. I was told this is a defect in the spa pack?

the tub used about 56 kwH today.

[Tyler]

Dean, how do you know the spa used 56 kWh? Do you have a meter connected?

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I don't know insulation doesn't seem to be helping much after monitoring usage for last 3 days. It's still using a lot of power. Around 6.5 bucks today, which is better than 8 though. It's really cold here right now. Apparently it's illegal in Canada to not have the ozone shut off when we are in the tub. There is supposed to be regulations about the gas, so they are to shut off even if you turn on a light. I was told this is a defect in the spa pack?

the tub used about 56 kwH today.

How many hours per day is it set to filter?

[Roger]

I don't know insulation doesn't seem to be helping much after monitoring usage for last 3 days. It's still using a lot of power. Around 6.5 bucks today, which is better than 8 though. It's really cold here right now. Apparently it's illegal in Canada to not have the ozone shut off when we are in the tub. There is supposed to be regulations about the gas, so they are to shut off even if you turn on a light. I was told this is a defect in the spa pack?

the tub used about 56 kwH today.

That's alot! What ST said plus what is the outside temp and how much did you use it..

[jmendoza17]

How many hours per day is it set to filter?

I also would like to know how to change the filtration cycle. The Hydrsopa manual provides basic info on error codes, but does not offer much explanation for the various settings that one could apply.

[New NW tub owner]

I don't know insulation doesn't seem to be helping much after monitoring usage for last 3 days. It's still using a lot of power. Around 6.5 bucks today, which is better than 8 though. It's really cold here right now. Apparently it's illegal in Canada to not have the ozone shut off when we are in the tub. There is supposed to be regulations about the gas, so they are to shut off even if you turn on a light. I was told this is a defect in the spa pack?

the tub used about 56 kwH today.

If there is a Canada rule on shutting the ozone off (which there is not), then there would have to be a manual turn-off-the-ozone switch since the tub controller would have no way of knowing if you were 'in' the tub or not. But the ozonator has NOTHING to do with excessive power consumption which seems to be your issue. For that, you should follow a decision process like this:

1) Is tub using excessive power? Yes...go to step 2. No...Stop.

2) Is the heater running all of the time? Yes...go to step 3. No...the problem is somewhere upstream of the tub.

3) Is the water getting hotter than it is supposed to? Yes...go to step 4. No...fix heat leak from tub (cover, insulation)

4) Look for problem in spa controller.

So far, you have answered yes to 1) and then skipped to 4) which is unlikely to fix your problem. Also I am curious how you are arriving at the 56 kwh per day figure. Do you have a special recording meter on the line to the tub or is that just a guess?

[tumbleweed]

Thank you for opening up this discussion.

I ran an electrical contracting business in Boulder Co in the 80's and early 90's., 7 years. I lived by the NEC book. We focused on remodeling and wiring up light industrial, my reputation was excellent because even the electrical inspector was referring us to his friends. I have put in three phase multiple services in and have done house remodels and additions, my favorite. I bought all of our electrical supplies from a really great company in Boulder, Colotex Electric Supply.

It was because of my deformed lower back that I started using hot tubs and became very fond of them. Every day I would come home in pain, and the hot tub we had was a blessing, but it was antique, costs me $100 on gas alone to use it, and I turned down the thermostat each time.

While I was at a customers home, there would be a broken down old tub, and the customer asked if I could take a look at it. With Electrical engineering background, it was a snap for me to "reverse engineer" and fix them. All of those old time clock relay and solar systems are very simple to me.

I was repairing a spa for Sandy's mom, up at the mountain home when I got offered a job in the hot tub service industry. This spa was a typical hot tub industry mess. They put an old 120V control on a 240V heater, similar to what caused the fires on Hot Spring spas a few years ago. They had replaced the heater and relay about 6 times per year. It was incorrect wiring and I have seen a lot of that. I took a look at that mess and decided to make a new control box for it, from scratch.

I went in to The Colorado Hot Tub Exchange, because they were the only place in the whole of Denver who sold hot tub electrical parts at that time. When I drew out the design, electrical diagram, for the new control box while I was at the counter, the owner, said: "Here are all your parts. You will have to get the box to put them in down at Hugh M. Woods, electrical department." (Before Lowes and Home Depot, they were it.). Then he said: "By the way, we are looking for a service manager."

He was an unemployed computer engineer, who got into the spa repair business, much the same way. Somebody asked him if he could fix their hot tub. He is also one of the best hot tub people in this world.

I went back and applied and interviewed three times, because it meant a huge cut in pay. I took Sandy with me on the last trip so that she was OK with me not making but half of what I used to make to start with. I just liked hot tubs. It was a lot of fun for me, that job.

When I got there the service department was certainly in need of organization, so I organized it and got if from being in the red to being in the Black, and I got a raise. We doubled the income of his service department in less than a year.

In the mean time I got to see all these "wonderful" hot tubs falling apart in people's back yards and got to do a lot of frozen spa estimates. We had up to 50 service calls a week with three people, and I did pack repair on the bench and went out on some calls. I saw it all.

It was that experience combined with my engineering background that made me think that somebody needs to build a spa that follows standard engineering principles and not follow these poor unfortunate people.

I said that; "If anybody were to build a spa that follows standard engineering they would do well."

Our first spas are still running and just now needed a shaft seal replacement and that is all they have had problems with. It is not an accident, it is by design.

All you have to do is use the equipment correctly and use much better equipment. It is not a big secret, as my genius brother used to say: "I didn't invent this stuff. I is in all those books." (pointing to his book shelf

full of engineering reference manuals.) You should see some of his accomplishments in engineering.

We have spas all over the place, Europe, Alaska, Hawaii, Scotland, England, and in just about every State except for a few. All of them are doing very well. We have about four warranty issues going at anyone month.

It is even better now that I am overseeing and finishing many of the spas myself. Really fun to fine tune each one and the Super Custom spas are becoming a legend.

Our business is doing OK, not booming, but we are not so in debt that we are in any trouble. The support from our existing customers all across the country is just wonderful.

Just because I feel that most spas are pretty dumb compared to something that follows standards of engineering, seems to make people who own inferior products or sell inferior products really angry with me.

We have a niche that no other spa company can fill. Super high quality at much lower prices, because of how efficient the company is run, and how little waste there is.

Here is some music for you to listen to while you contemplate your motives.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_pl...;q=lo&ref=2

Jim, this is a direct cut and paste from your web sites forum. Would this genius brother of yours be the same one who is attacking you on other forums for your financial shenanigans? What is your engineering background? Could it be your basic apprentice background in the Navy? Were you ever a licensed electrician? With whom did you apprentice? Did you ever make Journeyman? Master? If you are going to make these fantastical claims, you should have no problem answering these questions without attacking me personally, or offering to pray for my soul. We all eagerly await your response.

[Brent Hamm]

Ok bad news. The meter did not do what i wanted (They had set the scale to low for monitoring something else). When i went to look at the averages they were all zeroed out. Which apparenly means i went off the scale.

So, i have to wait tell next weekend to take one home again.

Would have been neat cause its soo cold out here! -36c (-32.8F) with a windchill of -45c (-49f) and this tub is out in the open!

[GDM]

I am making the plunge into solar heating for the PE2. Next weekend I am going to install the system, and if our estimate that the heater is 75% or more of the electrical usage, my kWh usage should drop dramatically. The system is going to pull water from the outlet intended to drain the spa, it will be pumped by a 5 gpm RV pump, the water will then get heated by 2 20 foot solar panels and get put back int the tub through the waterfall. If it works as it is supposed to, the solar panels will heat the water as high as 125 degrees in one day (although I will probably set the solar thermostat at 110 so that after the sun is down and the tub cools it should drop to the perfect temp). I am going to turn the spa heater down to 80 so that it never turns on. Assuming this drops my electric bill, I will leave the breaker on and let the circulation pump continue to go. If the bill is too high, I will install an in-line UV filter in the solar infrastructure and turn off the breaker completely. One way or another, this tub will no longer cost me $150/month.

(btw, the cost of the system was $950)

[Brent Hamm]

Wow..that sounds really neat. Please post pictures and let us know how it works.

[jmendoza17]

I am making the plunge into solar heating for the PE2. Next weekend I am going to install the system, and if our estimate that the heater is 75% or more of the electrical usage, my kWh usage should drop dramatically. The system is going to pull water from the outlet intended to drain the spa, it will be pumped by a 5 gpm RV pump, the water will then get heated by 2 20 foot solar panels and get put back int the tub through the waterfall. If it works as it is supposed to, the solar panels will heat the water as high as 125 degrees in one day (although I will probably set the solar thermostat at 110 so that after the sun is down and the tub cools it should drop to the perfect temp). I am going to turn the spa heater down to 80 so that it never turns on. Assuming this drops my electric bill, I will leave the breaker on and let the circulation pump continue to go. If the bill is too high, I will install an in-line UV filter in the solar infrastructure and turn off the breaker completely. One way or another, this tub will no longer cost me $150/month.

(btw, the cost of the system was $950)

Great idea. Please post info on where you got the system.

[GDM]

Great idea. Please post info on where you got the system.

This is where I found the system... http://www.solarhottub.com/.

Luckily, the guy who owns the website lives down the street from me so he came over and showed me how it will work. He is going to help me set it up on Saturday. I will take pictures and report on the performance.

[Dr. Spa]

If you truly believe Wendys has the best fries, you need medication. McDonalds has the best fries hands down!

[deandog]

I have yet to see my P.E.II cost more then 45 dollars and it stays at the normal setting with the circ pump on twenty four hours. I belive that the circ pump needs to run in order to keep the spa to temp without running the jet pumps 1,2 and 3. my worst bill was last momnth but that also had record cold weather in that month. I wonder if your jet pumps are set to go on more then the minimum setting. I think you can adjust the filter set times. I m not at home but believe it is to push the twmp down arrow then the mode button to desired setting? I'll check when I get home. Also note my neighbor has a hotsprings preodigy which ran 38 dollars according to him vs my 45 dollars..... Hopefully you ill find whats wrong.

Yes checked that and it was at the twice a day setting it comes on 2x per day during off peak times for 20min.

[deandog]

You are right that the PE2 comes with a 240v recirc pump. All of the pumps on the PE2 are 240v. The blower and ozonator are 115v. The controller on the PE2 will not even work with a 115v pump because it would apply 240v to motor windings that were designed for 115v and would just overheat 'burn out' and immediately stop.

These boards can apparently be modified by the tech to accomodate both.

But even if it did work with the 115v pump, it STILL would not use the 80 kwh per day you mentioned because the recirc pump is a little pump that cannot absorb that much power.

There I agree with you, the heater must be on a lot. I just finished insulating the entire tub with R 14 roxul and have stabilized the inside temp to around 85 F. Only time and fixing the faulty components will tell if the tub is going to continue chewing up the power. If so then it will go back. I am monitoring it daily now.

Power is watts. Volts times amps. If your pump is running at a lower voltage, it would draw more amperage but the power would stay the same...50 watts. Finally, there is nothing inherently wrong with a 115v recirc pump. For a 1/15 hp pump, 115v is just as good as 240 v. Balboa just makes all of the pumps 240v for convenience and simplicity.

Ok well since I am a high school science teacher I must be horrible at math and know nothing about Power.

So here is a little lesson that I might teach to my students.

This is where amperage comes in. The toaster, or any other electrical product, needs a certain amount of electrical energy to perform its job. It draws that amount of electricity from the 'river' of volts in the line. A small electrical appliance like a toaster usually needs less power than a larger appliance such as a refrigerator or power saw. In electrical terms, these appliances work at different amperage rates. A large electric motor may draw 100 amps, while a small heating element may draw only 10 amps. Both tap into the same 110 voltage line, but their amperage needs are noticeably different.

Amperage must be controlled in order to protect the electrical lines from overheating or short-circuiting. This is why electricians use fuses and breakers. A 30 amp fuse, for example, will allow smaller appliances to run on the line it protects, but if an electric clothes dryer pulls 60 amps, a metal filament in the fuse will melt and break the circuit immediately. Breaker switches also control amperage through circuit breaking. Larger electrical devices often have their own circuits with higher capacity fuses or breaker switches to avoid such overloads.

The general rule of thumb for homeowners is the higher the amperage, the more an appliance will cost to run. There is always a trade-off between power and economy when it comes to electrical devices. If economizing on the monthly utility is a priority, then select products with lower amperage. Since the 115 draws 4 amps and the 240 draws 1 amp...hmmm that would mean less cost in the school that I went to. If power and speed are important, then look for products with higher amperage. The utility company bills customers based on total wattage used, which is calculated by multiplying amperage by voltage. Wattage is the basic measuring unit of electrical power, so customers are usually charged by the watt or kilowatt. This is why it is important to turn off electrical devices when they are not needed. Extra amperage means a higher amount of billable wattage hours.

So lets do the math togeter shall we ....... 115 Volt x 4 amp = 460 Watts vs 220 Volts x 1 Amp = 220 Watts (some 240 Volt circ pumps only draw .9 of an amp with their circ pumps) (highly efficient) .......therefore half the energy used, which will still save some money.

The ONLY thing that can be using 80 kwh per day is the 4kw heater and it would have to be running nearly 24 hours per day. You should be able to see that. If the heater is putting 4,000 watts into the water every hour, it has to be going somewhere.

Either the heat is rising out of the water as steam due to a missing/badly-leaking cover or the heater is 'stuck' on and overheating the water by a lot.

No overheating and no Steam. The cover holds snow and does not melt it either.

If Hydrospa told you the ozonator is supposed to shut off on the PE2 then they are wrong about their own spas.

No sure where you are but in Canada we have a law that states that the ozone in tubs must shut off when in use and if it doesn't then I have the wrong spa pack. I also wrote that spa pack is being changed possibly because the contacts are stuck causing the heater to run on less voltage so needing to do twice the work to heat to the desired temp. Therefore on most of the time. (this is one possibility) At this point we are unsure thats why they are replacing the spa pack and circ pump. The tech said if the ozone does not shut off it must go back and they have to provide one that does because that is our code in Canada.

The ozonator is basically just a light bulb but it is supposed to run whenever the recirc pump is running. On the PE2, they both run 24/7 to maintain water quality. Most newer spas have a 24/7 recirc pump operation.

How many hours per day is it set to filter?

2x 20 min

[New NW tub owner]

The general rule of thumb for homeowners is the higher the amperage, the more an appliance will cost to run. There is always a trade-off between power and economy when it comes to electrical devices. If economizing on the monthly utility is a priority, then select products with lower amperage. Since the 115 draws 4 amps and the 240 draws 1 amp...hmmm that would mean less cost in the school that I went to. If power and speed are important, then look for products with higher amperage. The utility company bills customers based on total wattage used, which is calculated by multiplying amperage by voltage. Wattage is the basic measuring unit of electrical power, so customers are usually charged by the watt or kilowatt. This is why it is important to turn off electrical devices when they are not needed. Extra amperage means a higher amount of billable wattage hours.

So lets do the math togeter shall we ....... 115 Volt x 4 amp = 460 Watts vs 220 Volts x 1 Amp = 220 Watts (some 240 Volt circ pumps only draw .9 of an amp with their circ pumps) (highly efficient) .......therefore half the energy used, which will still save some money.

Power costs are assessed all over the world based on 'watts' and not 'amps.' Watts are equal to volts multiplied by amps. You seem to be attempting to say that your 115v recirc pump draws 4 amps while the 230v pump only draws 1 amp. My PE2 recirc pump is 230v and rated at 1/15 hp or 50 watts. The horsepower is a measure of how much work the pump can do. If your recirc pump is drawing 4 amps at 115v, that would make it a 460 watt or 0.6 hp pump which is about 10x bigger than the recirc pump on my PE2 and far bigger than needed to do the job. Here's some info on typical hot tub recirc pumps:

http://www.amerimerc.com/spa_n_hot_tub/spa...aster_pumps.asp

Note that this vendor supplies either 115v or 230v recirc pumps rated for the same 1/15 hp power output and duty cycle. Either one is just as good. The amount of 'power' that the pump consumes is determined by how much water iit's pumping at a particular pressure which is determined by the rotational speed, the size of the impeller, and the resistance to flow offered by the piping. The amp draw in the motor windings will be determined by the power output (i.e. pump size) and voltage that the pump is running at.

Bottom line here is that if your recirc pump is drawing 4 amps at 115 volts it is GROSSLY oversized and is not the 1/15 hp recirc pump that was specified for the PE2. If your replacement pump is drawing 1 amp at 220v, then it imust be a smaller pump than the other 115v pump but still way oversized. The PE2 1/15hp 230v recirc pump on my tub has a maximum ampere motor rating of 0.6 amps but that is a measure of how much current can pass thru the motor before it will burn up, not of how much current it draws in normal operation(which varies depending on the load). I would expect that my 1/15 hp recirc pump draws about 0.27 amps under full load conditions and an efficiency of 80 percent although I've never measured it.

Tell Hydrospa that the PE2 is supposed to have a 1/15 hp recirc pump.

[deandog]

Power costs are assessed all over the world based on 'watts' and not 'amps.' Watts are equal to volts multiplied by amps. You seem to be attempting to say that your 115v recirc pump draws 4 amps while the 230v pump only draws 1 amp. My PE2 recirc pump is 230v and rated at 1/15 hp or 50 watts. The horsepower is a measure of how much work the pump can do. If your recirc pump is drawing 4 amps at 115v, that would make it a 460 watt or 0.6 hp pump which is about 10x bigger than the recirc pump on my PE2 and far bigger than needed to do the job. Here's some info on typical hot tub recirc pumps:

Maybe that's why they are replacing the circ pump......all I know is that it's rated at 4 amps.

If you take the cover off your spa pack it will tell you how much amperage each componet is drawing right on the inside of the cover, my numbers are accurate and verified by hydrospa.

http://www.amerimerc.com/spa_n_hot_tub/spa...aster_pumps.asp

Note that this vendor supplies either 115v or 230v recirc pumps rated for the same 1/15 hp power output and duty cycle. Either one is just as good. The amount of 'power' that the pump consumes is determined by how much water iit's pumping at a particular pressure which is determined by the rotational speed, the size of the impeller, and the resistance to flow offered by the piping. The amp draw in the motor windings will be determined by the power output (i.e. pump size) and voltage that the pump is running at.

Bottom line here is that if your recirc pump is drawing 4 amps at 115 volts it is GROSSLY oversized and is not the 1/15 hp recirc pump that was specified for the PE2. If your replacement pump is drawing 1 amp at 220v, then it imust be a smaller pump than the other 115v pump but still way oversized. The PE2 1/15hp 230v recirc pump on my tub has a maximum ampere motor rating of 0.6 amps but that is a measure of how much current can pass thru the motor before it will burn up, not of how much current it draws in normal operation(which varies depending on the load). I would expect that my 1/15 hp recirc pump draws about 0.27 amps under full load conditions and an efficiency of 80 percent although I've never measured it.

Tell Hydrospa that the PE2 is supposed to have a 1/15 hp recirc pump.

Not all pumps are created equal, if it's a crappy pump in mine then it probably is drawing 4 amps despite being a 1/15 hp motor which it claims to be by the stamp on it. Anyway I really don't care I just want it replaced with a 240 Volt that was supposed to be in there and the tech working on the tub agrees that this will cost less and be a better quality pump. So I am looking forward to seeing if the changes to the spa and the insulation help with my energy woes. If not the tub will go back and I will replace it with an artic or sundance. They will even pick it up for me and deliver it back to cost co at no cost when they deliver and set up the new one. Glad I have that option. Time will tell, unlike other posts that I have read that say you can take back a spa to cost-co at any time even 10 years down the road, the cost-co where I purchased the spa only gives you a year to return a spa, so I have some time to figure it out. (but not money for hydro-one). All I can do is hope that the heater has been malfunctioning and the new spa pack will fix the problems together with the insulation to bring down the cost to a reasonable level, I can deal with 2 or 3 bucks in the winter but not 8 dollars extra a day. Our average hydro use before the spa was 71 kwh averaged over the last 2 years. We have very little change between summer and winter with the ac on. Only a difference of 2 or 3 kwh/day avg. Since getting the tub the bill has gone up from 71 kwh/day avg to 135 kwh/day avg prior to insulation. I spent some time on the phone with the hydro company and came up with more accuate numers based on actual readings done since I got the spa. I am not happy with this spa's performance but I am giving them a chance to rectify the situation.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Time will tell, unlike other posts that I have read that say you can take back a spa to cost-co at any time even 10 years down the road, the cost-co where I purchased the spa only gives you a year to return a spa, so I have some time to figure it out.

I've assumed that eventually Costco would have to define a time frame for return of spas. Maybe this is your local Costco but in time they'll have a standard policy and maybe the 1 yr time frame will be it. That should be ample time for the customer to get a feel for what they have and how well it is operating. Many dealers have become willing to help return the spa when a customer decides that wanted to upgrade so that isn't a surprise.

[flibotte]

With all this talk about the Costco return policy I decided to email customer service and ask the direct question of can I return a hot tub 5-10 years later for any reason, no questions asked for a full refund. WIll post what they say.

Looks like they have a hot tub line on the website. It looks the the Keys spas are starting to go up in price as well as the Hydro lines.

Infinity Sun Valley Spa

59 Stainless Jets, Ozone,

LED Lighting

$3,999.99

[tumbleweed]

Jim, this is a direct cut and paste from your web sites forum. Would this genius brother of yours be the same one who is attacking you on other forums for your financial shenanigans? What is your engineering background? Could it be your basic apprentice background in the Navy? Were you ever a licensed electrician? With whom did you apprentice? Did you ever make Journeyman? Master? If you are going to make these fantastical claims, you should have no problem answering these questions without attacking me personally, or offering to pray for my soul. We all eagerly await your response.

My brother is in a lot of pain and suffering. He is lashing out over nothing. There is no money owed to him, and the rest of his stuff is clearly the ramblings of someone who is in a lot of mental and emotional suffering.

He has had a rough life and I had hoped that his life would improve in his old age.

I think that all of you should pray for him.

Sidestep. Did not answer the questions. Same old Jim.