New Guy Very Confused

[Tomab]

In warm weather I can tell you from personal experience with a perimeter spa that the heater isn't needed to warm the spa, and it will sometimes go above 104F no problem. But in any kind of cooler weather you still need the heater. So, I believe that there's some truth to the statement that the Arctic can heat up without the heater. My previous perimeter spa would do this. But it's also an exaggeration because it won't do that except in certain (warm weather) conditions.

This would concern me. In warm weather, I don't want the spa going over 104 degrees. I certainly don't want it to happen in hot weather. It is definitely true that the arctic can heat without the heater but unfortuantely it may come at a time when you do not want the heat. Apparently the answer to this condition is the Arctic Chiller - a rather high tech and not inexpesnive device that cools the cabinet space that is being overheated by the pumps. They also sell vent panels to use during warm whether as another approach to dealing with this problem. Of course evening temps may drop rather low while daytime temps are high and the vent panels mean you dont really have insulation around to tub so you heat at night.

I am a big fan of simplicity so I don't see the direct approach of using more insulation to minimize heat loss as a disadvantage. The water temperature is controlled by a thermostat. When low, the heater kicks on. No heat is input when temp is at desired range.

Not sure exactly where you stand from your previous post spawn but in response to your above comment which I agree is a valid concern about the increase in water temp.

There seems to be some concern in regards to the Arctic spas actual water temp exceding the programmed set temp in the summer time.

When this does happen it is relatively rare in my climate(southwestern PA). However, if my pumps have been running for some time and the heat inside the cabinet causes the water temp to rise more than a few degrees above the programmed set temp the pumps automatically stop and then my blower kicks in to remove the hot air that is inside my cabinet and therefore will decrease the temp inside the cabinet and in turn bring the water down to the set temp. Kind of like a safety valve of sorts. No need for a chiller or louvered door panel IMO since this method does work. Plus you still have the insulation when the ambient temp drops back down in the evening.

[hot_water]

Hot Water - A couple of thoughts come to mind when I read your post. See Below

This loss amounts to about 1 amp at 220V. Considering power factor, the amount of power, which is all dissipated into the inside of the cabinet, it on the order of 200W. Someone said that the Arctic pump runs for 8 hours... so that would be 1.6 kW-hours of energy that's dissipated into the interior of the cabinet.

Running a tub for 8 hours a day seems excessive to me - who does this and for what reason?

This is about the equivalent of a 5kW heater running for between 15 and 20 minutes, more or less, depending on the Arctic's actual pump power on low spped and its efficiency. I'm just guessing at what seem to be reasonable numbers.

I would rather run a heater for 15 minutes than a low speed pump for 8 hours. If a person runs a pump for 4 hours this would save about 7.5 minutes of heater use, two hours of pump = a little over 3 minutes of heater use, by your analysis. I realize that the pump is on for other reasons than to heat the cavity, which is presumably a secondary effect of running the pump. Also the heater is heating the water (granted some loss to the cabinet) vs the low speed pump heating the air space so the equivalent water heating time for 2 hours of pump use would be less than the three minutes. There is still heat loss from the cabinet interior to the outside. Any idea of what the r-value of the exterior cabinet wall is?

Now with the Arctic or other (good) perimeter spa, the waste energy can help keep the air space in the cabinet at a high temperature. If the temp inside is high, it seriously retards the heat loss from the water. 200W for 8 hours inside the cabinet ought to do a good job at warning up that space, as long as the perimeter insulation is decent and does a good job of holding the heat inside. Considering that the perimeter insulation is in place, the air temp inside the cabinet is going to be quite warm anyway, just because the water at 100-104F will keep that air pretty warm, pumps or no.

As said before, there will be heat lost through the perimeter insulation. unless the outside temperature is higher than the cabinet temperature. The less the temperature difference, the less the rate of heat loss - same for heat movement from water to cabinet space , which I understand is your main point about the benefit of the pump heating the cavity. Creating the cavity effectively means that there is less insulation between the heated water and the outside. I understand that you are pointing out that the pumps heat the cavity to help make up for this loss in R-value.

If the interior cabinet temp gets above the water temp, then some of this 1.6 kW-hrs of energy will go into the spa water, via the large surface area of the backside of the shell. This is the difference between the perimeter and foamed spas. The foamed spas don't make use of the waste heat nearly as well or possibly not at all, depending on the design. If their equipment bay is vented, the waste heat is, well, wasted.

When the cavity temp exceeds the water temp, the it will not be necessary for the heater to run. In the situation you really don't want to be heating the water unless you have deliberately set the temperature to be below the desired temperature.

In warm weather I can tell you from personal experience with a perimeter spa that the heater isn't needed to warm the spa, and it will sometimes go above 104F no problem. But in any kind of cooler weather you still need the heater. So, I believe that there's some truth to the statement that the Arctic can heat up without the heater. My previous perimeter spa would do this. But it's also an exaggeration because it won't do that except in certain (warm weather) conditions.

This would concern me. In warm weather, I don't want the spa going over 104 degrees. I certainly don't want it to happen in hot weather. It is definitely true that the arctic can heat without the heater but unfortuantely it may come at a time when you do not want the heat. Apparently the answer to this condition is the Arctic Chiller - a rather high tech and not inexpesnive device that cools the cabinet space that is being overheated by the pumps. They also sell vent panels to use during warm whether as another approach to dealing with this problem. Of course evening temps may drop rather low while daytime temps are high and the vent panels mean you dont really have insulation around to tub so you heat at night.

Foam tubs rely on the foam as insulation. This can work real well too as far as heat retention goes... it's sort of the brute force, caveman approach - simple but works. The downside is that service access is limited. Roger doesn't acknowledge this as a legitimate disadvantage.... use your own judgement. I think it's very important and since I repair all my own stuff, I personally wouldn't get a foamed model. Just too much potential pain for too little (if any) gain. The cover and how much you use the spa are both likely to have more impact on your energy costs than the cabinet's insulation, assuming the cabinet is done reasonably well... so may as well get one that's easy to repair.

I am a big fan of simplicity so I don't see the direct approach of using more insulation to minimize heat loss as a disadvantage. The water temperature is controlled by a thermostat. When low, the heater kicks on. No heat is input when temp is at desired range.

I think you might be getting wrapped around the axle a bit. It takes some pretty hot days to get the temp to actually rise above the setpoint based on recycled motor power alone. I live in California, we have the occasional 105-110F hot spell so yes I have seen the water temp spike up above the setpoint. But even during the summer my spa's heater does need to run to keep the spa up to temperature on a consistnt basis. It doesn't run much... very low electric bill during summertime of course... but it does run. In any case, overtemp for me has not been much of an issue. I just open the cover and the temp drops a degree or two within 15 minutes. Even with air temps exceeding 104F, latent heat of evaporation of the water will cause the temp to drop.

Arctic offers features to address this overheating phenomenon if it concerns you... you should contact them. With any brand of perimeter insulated spa, allowing a bit of the cabinet air to escape in warm weather makes it all a non-issue.

Someone elsewhere on this thread reported that Arctic pumps run for 8 hours. That's why I used that number, but it's not unreasonable. The minimum filtration duration setting on my controller (Balboa - mine is a perimeter insulated spa but not an Arctic) is 2 hours, twice per day... which is 4 hours. I don't believe that you would want less filtration than this. If the Arctic truly does filter for 8 hours per day that's not out of line at all.

Regarding your comment on your preference to run the heater for 15 min rather than the pump for 8 hours: It's not a question of one or the other. The pump is running for filtration, a necessary function, anyway. The ability to reuse the waste heat is a bonus. Under the vast majority of conditions, you will still need to run your heater to maintain water temperature. Getting any benefit from the motor's waste heat rather than venting it to the outside is a good thing, not a negative - you pay for that energy whether you use it to maintain the water temp or whether you vent it. May as well use it. If you WANT to vent it, there are ways to do that... an easy one is just leave the cover off for a bit.

When the cavity temp exceeds the water temp, it may STILL be necessary for the heater to run. For example, with the cover off the rate of heat loss from a spa is almost always going to exceed the rate at which heat transfers from cavity to water, except perhaps on a very hot humid day IF you're running the jet pumps on high. The motor's waste heat helps, but realistically it's unlikely to make the heater un-needed in the vast majority of circumstances.

No one is claiming that there is no heat loss from the perimeter insulation. No insulation is perfect. The perimeter design has a much lower overall thermal resistance from the cavity to the water compared to the overall thermal resistance from the the cavity to the ambient air, so as to favor transfer of heat to the water when motor waste heat and/or other factors (e.g., solar load) cause the cavity temp to exceed the water temp . But yes there will always be some loss to the ambient! You need to know not only the R-value of the perimeter insulation, but also the overall R-value from the the cavity to the water to evaluate this since it's the ratio of the resistances that's important. I don't know this information, perhaps Arctic will provide it... you would have to ask them. It's also true that as the external ambient temp drops, a higher proportion of heat in the cavity air will inevitably transfer to the ambient air - the re-use of the motor waste heat will become less effective.

As for the overall insulation effectiveness... you seem to be sold on full foam. That's fine, you should get what you believe works. Few people will argue that Arctic doesn't have excellent heat retention. Even those that prefer foam will also admit that the perimeter concept, if executed well, will work comparably well. In any case, the cover is more important that the cabinet - of any design, assuming it's done well -- and the largest heat loss occurs when the cover is off and the spa is actually in use. How much you use your spa has more to do with your energy costs than anything else.

I understand the simplicity concept. You might not think foam was all that simple in the event a repair was needed on the plumbing jet housings or shell. On the other hand, a perimeter spa is essentiall an empty cavity, sealed up fairly well, with some insulation on the walls and floor. Hard to beat that for simplicity.

In the end it's a judgement call. Get what you're comfortable with.

[Roger]

Hey Jeff, which is more comfortable and quiet? Forget all this other stuff. There is virtualy pennies difference in operating costs between the 3. No difference in repair costs. Get comfortable with a dealer and a tub on your butt.

[spawn]

Hot Water - A couple of thoughts come to mind when I read your post. See Below

This loss amounts to about 1 amp at 220V. Considering power factor, the amount of power, which is all dissipated into the inside of the cabinet, it on the order of 200W. Someone said that the Arctic pump runs for 8 hours... so that would be 1.6 kW-hours of energy that's dissipated into the interior of the cabinet.

Running a tub for 8 hours a day seems excessive to me - who does this and for what reason?

This is about the equivalent of a 5kW heater running for between 15 and 20 minutes, more or less, depending on the Arctic's actual pump power on low spped and its efficiency. I'm just guessing at what seem to be reasonable numbers.

I would rather run a heater for 15 minutes than a low speed pump for 8 hours. If a person runs a pump for 4 hours this would save about 7.5 minutes of heater use, two hours of pump = a little over 3 minutes of heater use, by your analysis. I realize that the pump is on for other reasons than to heat the cavity, which is presumably a secondary effect of running the pump. Also the heater is heating the water (granted some loss to the cabinet) vs the low speed pump heating the air space so the equivalent water heating time for 2 hours of pump use would be less than the three minutes. There is still heat loss from the cabinet interior to the outside. Any idea of what the r-value of the exterior cabinet wall is?

Now with the Arctic or other (good) perimeter spa, the waste energy can help keep the air space in the cabinet at a high temperature. If the temp inside is high, it seriously retards the heat loss from the water. 200W for 8 hours inside the cabinet ought to do a good job at warning up that space, as long as the perimeter insulation is decent and does a good job of holding the heat inside. Considering that the perimeter insulation is in place, the air temp inside the cabinet is going to be quite warm anyway, just because the water at 100-104F will keep that air pretty warm, pumps or no.

As said before, there will be heat lost through the perimeter insulation. unless the outside temperature is higher than the cabinet temperature. The less the temperature difference, the less the rate of heat loss - same for heat movement from water to cabinet space , which I understand is your main point about the benefit of the pump heating the cavity. Creating the cavity effectively means that there is less insulation between the heated water and the outside. I understand that you are pointing out that the pumps heat the cavity to help make up for this loss in R-value.

If the interior cabinet temp gets above the water temp, then some of this 1.6 kW-hrs of energy will go into the spa water, via the large surface area of the backside of the shell. This is the difference between the perimeter and foamed spas. The foamed spas don't make use of the waste heat nearly as well or possibly not at all, depending on the design. If their equipment bay is vented, the waste heat is, well, wasted.

When the cavity temp exceeds the water temp, the it will not be necessary for the heater to run. In the situation you really don't want to be heating the water unless you have deliberately set the temperature to be below the desired temperature.

In warm weather I can tell you from personal experience with a perimeter spa that the heater isn't needed to warm the spa, and it will sometimes go above 104F no problem. But in any kind of cooler weather you still need the heater. So, I believe that there's some truth to the statement that the Arctic can heat up without the heater. My previous perimeter spa would do this. But it's also an exaggeration because it won't do that except in certain (warm weather) conditions.

This would concern me. In warm weather, I don't want the spa going over 104 degrees. I certainly don't want it to happen in hot weather. It is definitely true that the arctic can heat without the heater but unfortuantely it may come at a time when you do not want the heat. Apparently the answer to this condition is the Arctic Chiller - a rather high tech and not inexpesnive device that cools the cabinet space that is being overheated by the pumps. They also sell vent panels to use during warm whether as another approach to dealing with this problem. Of course evening temps may drop rather low while daytime temps are high and the vent panels mean you dont really have insulation around to tub so you heat at night.

Foam tubs rely on the foam as insulation. This can work real well too as far as heat retention goes... it's sort of the brute force, caveman approach - simple but works. The downside is that service access is limited. Roger doesn't acknowledge this as a legitimate disadvantage.... use your own judgement. I think it's very important and since I repair all my own stuff, I personally wouldn't get a foamed model. Just too much potential pain for too little (if any) gain. The cover and how much you use the spa are both likely to have more impact on your energy costs than the cabinet's insulation, assuming the cabinet is done reasonably well... so may as well get one that's easy to repair.

I am a big fan of simplicity so I don't see the direct approach of using more insulation to minimize heat loss as a disadvantage. The water temperature is controlled by a thermostat. When low, the heater kicks on. No heat is input when temp is at desired range.

I think you might be getting wrapped around the axle a bit. It takes some pretty hot days to get the temp to actually rise above the setpoint based on recycled motor power alone. I live in California, we have the occasional 105-110F hot spell so yes I have seen the water temp spike up above the setpoint. But even during the summer my spa's heater does need to run to keep the spa up to temperature on a consistnt basis. It doesn't run much... very low electric bill during summertime of course... but it does run. In any case, overtemp for me has not been much of an issue. I just open the cover and the temp drops a degree or two within 15 minutes. Even with air temps exceeding 104F, latent heat of evaporation of the water will cause the temp to drop.

Arctic offers features to address this overheating phenomenon if it concerns you... you should contact them. With any brand of perimeter insulated spa, allowing a bit of the cabinet air to escape in warm weather makes it all a non-issue.

Someone elsewhere on this thread reported that Arctic pumps run for 8 hours. That's why I used that number, but it's not unreasonable. The minimum filtration duration setting on my controller (Balboa - mine is a perimeter insulated spa but not an Arctic) is 2 hours, twice per day... which is 4 hours. I don't believe that you would want less filtration than this. If the Arctic truly does filter for 8 hours per day that's not out of line at all.

Regarding your comment on your preference to run the heater for 15 min rather than the pump for 8 hours: It's not a question of one or the other. The pump is running for filtration, a necessary function, anyway. The ability to reuse the waste heat is a bonus. Under the vast majority of conditions, you will still need to run your heater to maintain water temperature. Getting any benefit from the motor's waste heat rather than venting it to the outside is a good thing, not a negative - you pay for that energy whether you use it to maintain the water temp or whether you vent it. May as well use it. If you WANT to vent it, there are ways to do that... an easy one is just leave the cover off for a bit.

When the cavity temp exceeds the water temp, it may STILL be necessary for the heater to run. For example, with the cover off the rate of heat loss from a spa is almost always going to exceed the rate at which heat transfers from cavity to water, except perhaps on a very hot humid day IF you're running the jet pumps on high. The motor's waste heat helps, but realistically it's unlikely to make the heater un-needed in the vast majority of circumstances.

No one is claiming that there is no heat loss from the perimeter insulation. No insulation is perfect. The perimeter design has a much lower overall thermal resistance from the cavity to the water compared to the overall thermal resistance from the the cavity to the ambient air, so as to favor transfer of heat to the water when motor waste heat and/or other factors (e.g., solar load) cause the cavity temp to exceed the water temp . But yes there will always be some loss to the ambient! You need to know not only the R-value of the perimeter insulation, but also the overall R-value from the the cavity to the water to evaluate this since it's the ratio of the resistances that's important. I don't know this information, perhaps Arctic will provide it... you would have to ask them. It's also true that as the external ambient temp drops, a higher proportion of heat in the cavity air will inevitably transfer to the ambient air - the re-use of the motor waste heat will become less effective.

As for the overall insulation effectiveness... you seem to be sold on full foam. That's fine, you should get what you believe works. Few people will argue that Arctic doesn't have excellent heat retention. Even those that prefer foam will also admit that the perimeter concept, if executed well, will work comparably well. In any case, the cover is more important that the cabinet - of any design, assuming it's done well -- and the largest heat loss occurs when the cover is off and the spa is actually in use. How much you use your spa has more to do with your energy costs than anything else.

I understand the simplicity concept. You might not think foam was all that simple in the event a repair was needed on the plumbing jet housings or shell. On the other hand, a perimeter spa is essentiall an empty cavity, sealed up fairly well, with some insulation on the walls and floor. Hard to beat that for simplicity.

In the end it's a judgement call. Get what you're comfortable with.

If I am getting “wrapped around the axle” perhaps it is from trying to keep up with you as you backpedal from “In warm weather I can tell you from personal experience with a perimeter spa that the heater isn't needed to warm the spa, and it will sometimes go above 104F no problem.” to “we have the occasional 105-110F hot spell so yes I have seen the water temp spike up above the setpoint. But even during the summer my spa's heater does need to run to keep the spa up to temperature”.

No doubt owners of thermopane spas are finding ways of dealing with the unwanted excess heat by using chillers, blowers, vented cabinet sections, leaving the cover open, “allowing a bit of the cabinet air to escape in warm weather” and other means. I think owners of the full foam spa appreciate not having this issue. You may recall that you chided Roger for not acknowledging what you believed was a legitimate disadvantage. Is the pot calling the kettle black here? Based on his extensive experience with spas over the years Roger doesn’t agree with you that it is important not to provide insulation within the cavity, outside of the equipment area.

I have no doubt that you are very happy with your purchasing decision. As for me I have not completely ruled out a thermopane type spa but it is true I would prefer a full foam tub. If I purchase a thermopane spa it will be in spite of the fact, rather than because it was thermopane.

[hot_water]

If I am getting “wrapped around the axle” perhaps it is from trying to keep up with you as you backpedal from “In warm weather I can tell you from personal experience with a perimeter spa that the heater isn't needed to warm the spa, and it will sometimes go above 104F no problem.” to “we have the occasional 105-110F hot spell so yes I have seen the water temp spike up above the setpoint. But even during the summer my spa's heater does need to run to keep the spa up to temperature”.

No doubt owners of thermopane spas are finding ways of dealing with the unwanted excess heat by using chillers, blowers, vented cabinet sections, leaving the cover open, “allowing a bit of the cabinet air to escape in warm weather” and other means. I think owners of the full foam spa appreciate not having this issue. You may recall that you chided Roger for not acknowledging what you believed was a legitimate disadvantage. Is the pot calling the kettle black here? Based on his extensive experience with spas over the years Roger doesn’t agree with you that it is important not to provide insulation within the cavity, outside of the equipment area.

I have no doubt that you are very happy with your purchasing decision. As for me I have not completely ruled out a thermopane type spa but it is true I would prefer a full foam tub. If I purchase a thermopane spa it will be in spite of the fact, rather than because it was thermopane.

Feel better? Boy you sure seem to be getting confrontational. Listen, I'm just trying to explain my experiences as an owner that has had couple of spas, in the hope that it might help someone with their choice. I spend my time to do this, just to be helpful. If you don't like what I have to say, please do ignore it.

Roger and I differ on many points. Life would be boring if everyone agreed. We wouldn't need discussion forums, we would all just go buy the same thing. As I said in my last post, it's a judgement call. Get what you're comfortable with.

I do see why you cite some inconsistency in my comments. I did say that the heater wasn't needed in warm weather (you quoted me out of context and left out the 'warm weather' part in the beginning of the sentence)... well, mine was a misstatement, I think, and more a function of my view of what warm weather is, based on where I live. I was trying to comment on the ability of the spa to actually make use of the waste heat... the real point of the entire post, if you look back... but I can see where my comments were poorly phrased and could create the impression that the thing will run above it's setpoint consistently. I can see your point. Fact is, it does have to be a pretty darn warm day for the spa to go above 104 on its own, and it happens, but doesn't happen (where I live) often - only during the aforementioned exceptional days. In my defense, I did say "sometimes" in my original post. I never meant to imply or infer that the spa stays above 104 consistently, but again, see that you could have read it that way. You seem to have latched onto this as a huge problem, and if my comments contributed to this, then that should be rectified... which I tried to do in my second post. It's simply not been a problem to speak of in my experience.

Again, I'm just trying to help folks by expressing MY EXPERIENCES. But if you think it's going to be a problem for you, that's your decision. Possibly, you live in an extremely warm area. In which case Arctic has options available for you. Which I (and others) pointed out. Dude.... just trying to give you some information from my USER perspective to help potential NEW BUYERS not get wrapped up in non-issues. If you don't agree with my comments or perpectives, I'm good with that - it's your money. As a point of reference, though, I've not seen any discussion here or on any other forum from anyone to the effect that this overheating thing was a significant disadvantage to a perimeter insulated spa. Maybe you have.

Get a spa you're comfortable with, and in. If you don't like what I have to say, again, please ignore it. There are many sides to any question.

[spawn]

If I am getting “wrapped around the axle” perhaps it is from trying to keep up with you as you backpedal from “In warm weather I can tell you from personal experience with a perimeter spa that the heater isn't needed to warm the spa, and it will sometimes go above 104F no problem.” to “we have the occasional 105-110F hot spell so yes I have seen the water temp spike up above the setpoint. But even during the summer my spa's heater does need to run to keep the spa up to temperature”.

No doubt owners of thermopane spas are finding ways of dealing with the unwanted excess heat by using chillers, blowers, vented cabinet sections, leaving the cover open, “allowing a bit of the cabinet air to escape in warm weather” and other means. I think owners of the full foam spa appreciate not having this issue. You may recall that you chided Roger for not acknowledging what you believed was a legitimate disadvantage. Is the pot calling the kettle black here? Based on his extensive experience with spas over the years Roger doesn’t agree with you that it is important not to provide insulation within the cavity, outside of the equipment area.

I have no doubt that you are very happy with your purchasing decision. As for me I have not completely ruled out a thermopane type spa but it is true I would prefer a full foam tub. If I purchase a thermopane spa it will be in spite of the fact, rather than because it was thermopane.

Feel better? Boy you sure seem to be getting confrontational. Listen, I'm just trying to explain my experiences as an owner that has had couple of spas, in the hope that it might help someone with their choice. I spend my time to do this, just to be helpful. If you don't like what I have to say, please do ignore it.

Roger and I differ on many points. Life would be boring if everyone agreed. We wouldn't need discussion forums, we would all just go buy the same thing. As I said in my last post, it's a judgement call. Get what you're comfortable with.

I do see why you cite some inconsistency in my comments. I did say that the heater wasn't needed in warm weather (you quoted me out of context and left out the 'warm weather' part in the beginning of the sentence)... well, mine was a misstatement, I think, and more a function of my view of what warm weather is, based on where I live. I was trying to comment on the ability of the spa to actually make use of the waste heat... the real point of the entire post, if you look back... but I can see where my comments were poorly phrased and could create the impression that the thing will run above it's setpoint consistently. I can see your point. Fact is, it does have to be a pretty darn warm day for the spa to go above 104 on its own, and it happens, but doesn't happen (where I live) often - only during the aforementioned exceptional days. In my defense, I did say "sometimes" in my original post. I never meant to imply or infer that the spa stays above 104 consistently, but again, see that you could have read it that way. You seem to have latched onto this as a huge problem, and if my comments contributed to this, then that should be rectified... which I tried to do in my second post. It's simply not been a problem to speak of in my experience.

Again, I'm just trying to help folks by expressing MY EXPERIENCES. But if you think it's going to be a problem for you, that's your decision. Possibly, you live in an extremely warm area. In which case Arctic has options available for you. Which I (and others) pointed out. Dude.... just trying to give you some information from my USER perspective to help potential NEW BUYERS not get wrapped up in non-issues. If you don't agree with my comments or perpectives, I'm good with that - it's your money. As a point of reference, though, I've not seen any discussion here or on any other forum from anyone to the effect that this overheating thing was a significant disadvantage to a perimeter insulated spa. Maybe you have.

Get a spa you're comfortable with, and in. If you don't like what I have to say, again, please ignore it. There are many sides to any question.

Yes hot water, thank you, I am feeling better, although I felt quite well previously. Yesterday was a beautiful day here, and I enjoyed a nice bike ride with my wife, later visited a couple of local wineries, made paella outside in the evening and sat around a fire making ‘smores with my wife and twin daughters. It was my idea of a pretty good day and who wouldn’t feel better after a day like that?

I didn’t use those little smilie faces in my post but perhaps they would have made you feel less threatened and understand the spirit in which it was offered. Really, I was just trying to do as you, share my opinion, in hopes that others may benefit. In deed I did point out the definite contradictions in your posts and the hypocrisy in your position regarding Roger’s refusual to share your opinion regarding what is a meaningful shortcoming. If you feel that this is confrontational, then I am guilty as charged, but if you look back over your posts in this forum I think you will find that my behavior was no different than what you have displayed from time to time.

I share your objective when you say “Dude.... just trying to give you some information from my USER perspective to help potential NEW BUYERS not get wrapped up in non-issues.” For the vast majority of buyers thermopane vs full-foam is a non-issue and that’s the way it should be, in my opinion. But for you personally, it was the primary issue is choosing a tub as you have posted that you would only buy a thermopane spa. Your continual posts promoting thermopane spas can distract buyers into believing it is an important issue, rather than a non-issue.

I enjoy reading your posts and when you say “If you don't like what I have to say, again, please ignore it.”, I usually do ignore them but I may not if I feel that you may be misleading someone. The forums are great for sharing information, debating issues and expressing opinions. Again, I did not mean to offend you by expressing mine, and I am sincerely sorry if I did so. (Imagine one of those winking smilies here to indicate that I really have nothing against you and wish you well).

[hot_water]

Yes hot water, thank you, I am feeling better, although I felt quite well previously. Yesterday was a beautiful day here, and I enjoyed a nice bike ride with my wife, later visited a couple of local wineries, made paella outside in the evening and sat around a fire making ‘smores with my wife and twin daughters. It was my idea of a pretty good day and who wouldn’t feel better after a day like that?

I didn’t use those little smilie faces in my post but perhaps they would have made you feel less threatened and understand the spirit in which it was offered. Really, I was just trying to do as you, share my opinion, in hopes that others may benefit. In deed I did point out the definite contradictions in your posts and the hypocrisy in your position regarding Roger’s refusual to share your opinion regarding what is a meaningful shortcoming. If you feel that this is confrontational, then I am guilty as charged, but if you look back over your posts in this forum I think you will find that my behavior was no different than what you have displayed from time to time.

I share your objective when you say “Dude.... just trying to give you some information from my USER perspective to help potential NEW BUYERS not get wrapped up in non-issues.” For the vast majority of buyers thermopane vs full-foam is a non-issue and that’s the way it should be, in my opinion. But for you personally, it was the primary issue is choosing a tub as you have posted that you would only buy a thermopane spa. Your continual posts promoting thermopane spas can distract buyers into believing it is an important issue, rather than a non-issue.

I enjoy reading your posts and when you say “If you don't like what I have to say, again, please ignore it.”, I usually do ignore them but I may not if I feel that you may be misleading someone. The forums are great for sharing information, debating issues and expressing opinions. Again, I did not mean to offend you by expressing mine, and I am sincerely sorry if I did so. (Imagine one of those winking smilies here to indicate that I really have nothing against you and wish you well).

Not wanting to disappoint, and yes I found your post quite offensive, but I don't feel threatened despite the lack of smilie faces.

'Hypocrisy' is a powerful word. I can accept disagreement and I can accept - and even agree - that you feel that some of my statements may have contributed to your conclusions that I feel were a bit overblown, but references to smilie faces don't make it appropriate to call someone a hypocrite. Especially someone that is spending their time to try to help you. If I am a hypocrite, then are you an ingrate? I don't mean to call you names and I don't think that of you... just hoping you see my point. You can disagree without being nasty.

Waylon33 pointed out serviceability as an advantage of Arctic. You said in your previous post #43 that you could see that serviceability would be better with the Arctic. Serviceability is ALWAYS my biggest problem with foam. But now you say, "For the vast majority of buyers thermopane vs full-foam is a non-issue and that’s the way it should be". What happened to serviceability? Is it now a non-issue? Yet you accuse me of being inconsistent. Tell me, ahem, is the pot calling the kettle black? Sheesh.

This is a snippet from my first post on this thread, post #48 (emphasis added):

"So, I believe that there's some truth to the statement that the Arctic can heat up without the heater. My previous perimeter spa would do this. But it's also an exaggeration because it won't do that except in certain (warm weather) conditions.

"Foam tubs rely on the foam as insulation. This can work real well too as far as heat retention goes... it's sort of the brute force, caveman approach - simple but works. The downside is that service access is limited. Roger doesn't acknowledge this as a legitimate disadvantage.... use your own judgement. I think it's very important and since I repair all my own stuff, I personally wouldn't get a foamed model. Just too much potential pain for too little (if any) gain. The cover and how much you use the spa are both likely to have more impact on your energy costs than the cabinet's insulation, assuming the cabinet is done reasonably well... so may as well get one that's easy to repair. "

I don't know... per you, I'm a misleading, backpedalling, hypocrite.

Ok, my bad... I guess. I hope you select a tub that suits you perfectly, gives no grief, and that you enjoy it with your family.

[Roger]

I am sure there are a bunch who will never agree with me on this but I really don't care. As a matter of fact careing whether someone on this board agrees with me is so far from my mind..............Being able to avoid foam to to create ease of service is such a non issue in my experience that it truely is funny that one person or two out of thousands and thousands of tubs consider it important. But it's OK if they do, it really doesn't matter, it can be important if they feel it needs to be.

If I were buying I would use comfort in both dealer and tub, and reputation of manufacturer to make my decision. I've serviced probably close to a thousand tubs and only struggled with foam a few times and that wasn't that big a deal either. Comfort in the tub would consider things like noise, ease of operation how well the seats fit. Comfort in the dealer would consider reputation, cost and service. If servicability is considered important then almost all of the best manufacturers in the world would be ruled out even if they are more comfortable 3 times longer lasting, quieter and they are backed by a dealer that is golden. That's to bad.

[spawn]

Yes hot water, thank you, I am feeling better, although I felt quite well previously. Yesterday was a beautiful day here, and I enjoyed a nice bike ride with my wife, later visited a couple of local wineries, made paella outside in the evening and sat around a fire making ‘smores with my wife and twin daughters. It was my idea of a pretty good day and who wouldn’t feel better after a day like that?

I didn’t use those little smilie faces in my post but perhaps they would have made you feel less threatened and understand the spirit in which it was offered. Really, I was just trying to do as you, share my opinion, in hopes that others may benefit. In deed I did point out the definite contradictions in your posts and the hypocrisy in your position regarding Roger’s refusual to share your opinion regarding what is a meaningful shortcoming. If you feel that this is confrontational, then I am guilty as charged, but if you look back over your posts in this forum I think you will find that my behavior was no different than what you have displayed from time to time.

I share your objective when you say “Dude.... just trying to give you some information from my USER perspective to help potential NEW BUYERS not get wrapped up in non-issues.” For the vast majority of buyers thermopane vs full-foam is a non-issue and that’s the way it should be, in my opinion. But for you personally, it was the primary issue is choosing a tub as you have posted that you would only buy a thermopane spa. Your continual posts promoting thermopane spas can distract buyers into believing it is an important issue, rather than a non-issue.

I enjoy reading your posts and when you say “If you don't like what I have to say, again, please ignore it.”, I usually do ignore them but I may not if I feel that you may be misleading someone. The forums are great for sharing information, debating issues and expressing opinions. Again, I did not mean to offend you by expressing mine, and I am sincerely sorry if I did so. (Imagine one of those winking smilies here to indicate that I really have nothing against you and wish you well).

Not wanting to disappoint, and yes I found your post quite offensive, but I don't feel threatened despite the lack of smilie faces.

'Hypocrisy' is a powerful word. I can accept disagreement and I can accept - and even agree - that you feel that some of my statements may have contributed to your conclusions that I feel were a bit overblown, but references to smilie faces don't make it appropriate to call someone a hypocrite. Especially someone that is spending their time to try to help you. If I am a hypocrite, then are you an ingrate? I don't mean to call you names and I don't think that of you... just hoping you see my point. You can disagree without being nasty.

Waylon33 pointed out serviceability as an advantage of Arctic. You said in your previous post #43 that you could see that serviceability would be better with the Arctic. Serviceability is ALWAYS my biggest problem with foam. But now you say, "For the vast majority of buyers thermopane vs full-foam is a non-issue and that’s the way it should be". What happened to serviceability? Is it now a non-issue? Yet you accuse me of being inconsistent. Tell me, ahem, is the pot calling the kettle black? Sheesh.

This is a snippet from my first post on this thread, post #48 (emphasis added):

"So, I believe that there's some truth to the statement that the Arctic can heat up without the heater. My previous perimeter spa would do this. But it's also an exaggeration because it won't do that except in certain (warm weather) conditions.

"Foam tubs rely on the foam as insulation. This can work real well too as far as heat retention goes... it's sort of the brute force, caveman approach - simple but works. The downside is that service access is limited. Roger doesn't acknowledge this as a legitimate disadvantage.... use your own judgement. I think it's very important and since I repair all my own stuff, I personally wouldn't get a foamed model. Just too much potential pain for too little (if any) gain. The cover and how much you use the spa are both likely to have more impact on your energy costs than the cabinet's insulation, assuming the cabinet is done reasonably well... so may as well get one that's easy to repair. "

I don't know... per you, I'm a misleading, backpedalling, hypocrite.

Ok, my bad... I guess. I hope you select a tub that suits you perfectly, gives no grief, and that you enjoy it with your family.

Feel better hot water? (Imagine winking smilie here).

I really did not mean to offend you and sincerely apologize if I did. (Expressionless smilie face to represent my feelings of contrition).

If the term hypocrisy seems too strong let me just clearly state that I believe that you criticized Roger for something and then did the same thing yourself. I have no reason to believe that you are a habitual hypocrite and in no way did I mean to convey that. (Another expressionless smilie, see above.)

I agree with you and Waylon that servicabilty outside the equipment bay is better on a thermopane spa I agree with Roger that this aspect is not important and should not be a consideration when buying a spa – it should be a non-issue for the vast majority of buyers, as I said before. I really don’t see the contradiction here. By the way, you can further improve the serviceability of your thermopane spa by permanently removing the panels. (Big grinning smilie here).

I also want to take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time to post in this forum. A forum would not amount to much if people didn’t participate. I usually enjoy your articulate, lengthy, well written posts. I reserve the right to disagree with your thinking and logic from time to time although I often believe that what you say is useful. I have learned much from you, not least of which is that you do not often retire from a thread without getting in the last word. (Winking smilie again).

Let bury the hatchet. I’ll try to unwrap myself from the axel and move on (Basic smilie)

[spawn]

I am sure there are a bunch who will never agree with me on this but I really don't care. As a matter of fact careing whether someone on this board agrees with me is so far from my mind..............Being able to avoid foam to to create ease of service is such a non issue in my experience that it truely is funny that one person or two out of thousands and thousands of tubs consider it important. But it's OK if they do, it really doesn't matter, it can be important if they feel it needs to be.

If I were buying I would use comfort in both dealer and tub, and reputation of manufacturer to make my decision. I've serviced probably close to a thousand tubs and only struggled with foam a few times and that wasn't that big a deal either. Comfort in the tub would consider things like noise, ease of operation how well the seats fit. Comfort in the dealer would consider reputation, cost and service. If servicability is considered important then almost all of the best manufacturers in the world would be ruled out even if they are more comfortable 3 times longer lasting, quieter and they are backed by a dealer that is golden. That's to bad.

Well said Roger - I agree completely!

[hot_water]

Yes hot water, thank you, I am feeling better, although I felt quite well previously. Yesterday was a beautiful day here, and I enjoyed a nice bike ride with my wife, later visited a couple of local wineries, made paella outside in the evening and sat around a fire making ‘smores with my wife and twin daughters. It was my idea of a pretty good day and who wouldn’t feel better after a day like that?

I didn’t use those little smilie faces in my post but perhaps they would have made you feel less threatened and understand the spirit in which it was offered. Really, I was just trying to do as you, share my opinion, in hopes that others may benefit. In deed I did point out the definite contradictions in your posts and the hypocrisy in your position regarding Roger’s refusual to share your opinion regarding what is a meaningful shortcoming. If you feel that this is confrontational, then I am guilty as charged, but if you look back over your posts in this forum I think you will find that my behavior was no different than what you have displayed from time to time.

I share your objective when you say “Dude.... just trying to give you some information from my USER perspective to help potential NEW BUYERS not get wrapped up in non-issues.” For the vast majority of buyers thermopane vs full-foam is a non-issue and that’s the way it should be, in my opinion. But for you personally, it was the primary issue is choosing a tub as you have posted that you would only buy a thermopane spa. Your continual posts promoting thermopane spas can distract buyers into believing it is an important issue, rather than a non-issue.

I enjoy reading your posts and when you say “If you don't like what I have to say, again, please ignore it.”, I usually do ignore them but I may not if I feel that you may be misleading someone. The forums are great for sharing information, debating issues and expressing opinions. Again, I did not mean to offend you by expressing mine, and I am sincerely sorry if I did so. (Imagine one of those winking smilies here to indicate that I really have nothing against you and wish you well).

Not wanting to disappoint, and yes I found your post quite offensive, but I don't feel threatened despite the lack of smilie faces.

'Hypocrisy' is a powerful word. I can accept disagreement and I can accept - and even agree - that you feel that some of my statements may have contributed to your conclusions that I feel were a bit overblown, but references to smilie faces don't make it appropriate to call someone a hypocrite. Especially someone that is spending their time to try to help you. If I am a hypocrite, then are you an ingrate? I don't mean to call you names and I don't think that of you... just hoping you see my point. You can disagree without being nasty.

Waylon33 pointed out serviceability as an advantage of Arctic. You said in your previous post #43 that you could see that serviceability would be better with the Arctic. Serviceability is ALWAYS my biggest problem with foam. But now you say, "For the vast majority of buyers thermopane vs full-foam is a non-issue and that’s the way it should be". What happened to serviceability? Is it now a non-issue? Yet you accuse me of being inconsistent. Tell me, ahem, is the pot calling the kettle black? Sheesh.

This is a snippet from my first post on this thread, post #48 (emphasis added):

"So, I believe that there's some truth to the statement that the Arctic can heat up without the heater. My previous perimeter spa would do this. But it's also an exaggeration because it won't do that except in certain (warm weather) conditions.

"Foam tubs rely on the foam as insulation. This can work real well too as far as heat retention goes... it's sort of the brute force, caveman approach - simple but works. The downside is that service access is limited. Roger doesn't acknowledge this as a legitimate disadvantage.... use your own judgement. I think it's very important and since I repair all my own stuff, I personally wouldn't get a foamed model. Just too much potential pain for too little (if any) gain. The cover and how much you use the spa are both likely to have more impact on your energy costs than the cabinet's insulation, assuming the cabinet is done reasonably well... so may as well get one that's easy to repair. "

I don't know... per you, I'm a misleading, backpedalling, hypocrite.

Ok, my bad... I guess. I hope you select a tub that suits you perfectly, gives no grief, and that you enjoy it with your family.

Feel better hot water? (Imagine winking smilie here).

I really did not mean to offend you and sincerely apologize if I did. (Expressionless smilie face to represent my feelings of contrition).

If the term hypocrisy seems too strong let me just clearly state that I believe that you criticized Roger for something and then did the same thing yourself. I have no reason to believe that you are a habitual hypocrite and in no way did I mean to convey that. (Another expressionless smilie, see above.)

I agree with you and Waylon that servicabilty outside the equipment bay is better on a thermopane spa I agree with Roger that this aspect is not important and should not be a consideration when buying a spa – it should be a non-issue for the vast majority of buyers, as I said before. I really don’t see the contradiction here. By the way, you can further improve the serviceability of your thermopane spa by permanently removing the panels. (Big grinning smilie here).

I also want to take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time to post in this forum. A forum would not amount to much if people didn’t participate. I usually enjoy your articulate, lengthy, well written posts. I reserve the right to disagree with your thinking and logic from time to time although I often believe that what you say is useful. I have learned much from you, not least of which is that you do not often retire from a thread without getting in the last word. (Winking smilie again).

Let bury the hatchet. I’ll try to unwrap myself from the axel and move on (Basic smilie)

I'll get in the last word again.

Peace.

[spawn]

Yes hot water, thank you, I am feeling better, although I felt quite well previously. Yesterday was a beautiful day here, and I enjoyed a nice bike ride with my wife, later visited a couple of local wineries, made paella outside in the evening and sat around a fire making ‘smores with my wife and twin daughters. It was my idea of a pretty good day and who wouldn’t feel better after a day like that?

I didn’t use those little smilie faces in my post but perhaps they would have made you feel less threatened and understand the spirit in which it was offered. Really, I was just trying to do as you, share my opinion, in hopes that others may benefit. In deed I did point out the definite contradictions in your posts and the hypocrisy in your position regarding Roger’s refusual to share your opinion regarding what is a meaningful shortcoming. If you feel that this is confrontational, then I am guilty as charged, but if you look back over your posts in this forum I think you will find that my behavior was no different than what you have displayed from time to time.

I share your objective when you say “Dude.... just trying to give you some information from my USER perspective to help potential NEW BUYERS not get wrapped up in non-issues.” For the vast majority of buyers thermopane vs full-foam is a non-issue and that’s the way it should be, in my opinion. But for you personally, it was the primary issue is choosing a tub as you have posted that you would only buy a thermopane spa. Your continual posts promoting thermopane spas can distract buyers into believing it is an important issue, rather than a non-issue.

I enjoy reading your posts and when you say “If you don't like what I have to say, again, please ignore it.”, I usually do ignore them but I may not if I feel that you may be misleading someone. The forums are great for sharing information, debating issues and expressing opinions. Again, I did not mean to offend you by expressing mine, and I am sincerely sorry if I did so. (Imagine one of those winking smilies here to indicate that I really have nothing against you and wish you well).

Not wanting to disappoint, and yes I found your post quite offensive, but I don't feel threatened despite the lack of smilie faces.

'Hypocrisy' is a powerful word. I can accept disagreement and I can accept - and even agree - that you feel that some of my statements may have contributed to your conclusions that I feel were a bit overblown, but references to smilie faces don't make it appropriate to call someone a hypocrite. Especially someone that is spending their time to try to help you. If I am a hypocrite, then are you an ingrate? I don't mean to call you names and I don't think that of you... just hoping you see my point. You can disagree without being nasty.

Waylon33 pointed out serviceability as an advantage of Arctic. You said in your previous post #43 that you could see that serviceability would be better with the Arctic. Serviceability is ALWAYS my biggest problem with foam. But now you say, "For the vast majority of buyers thermopane vs full-foam is a non-issue and that’s the way it should be". What happened to serviceability? Is it now a non-issue? Yet you accuse me of being inconsistent. Tell me, ahem, is the pot calling the kettle black? Sheesh.

This is a snippet from my first post on this thread, post #48 (emphasis added):

"So, I believe that there's some truth to the statement that the Arctic can heat up without the heater. My previous perimeter spa would do this. But it's also an exaggeration because it won't do that except in certain (warm weather) conditions.

"Foam tubs rely on the foam as insulation. This can work real well too as far as heat retention goes... it's sort of the brute force, caveman approach - simple but works. The downside is that service access is limited. Roger doesn't acknowledge this as a legitimate disadvantage.... use your own judgement. I think it's very important and since I repair all my own stuff, I personally wouldn't get a foamed model. Just too much potential pain for too little (if any) gain. The cover and how much you use the spa are both likely to have more impact on your energy costs than the cabinet's insulation, assuming the cabinet is done reasonably well... so may as well get one that's easy to repair. "

I don't know... per you, I'm a misleading, backpedalling, hypocrite.

Ok, my bad... I guess. I hope you select a tub that suits you perfectly, gives no grief, and that you enjoy it with your family.

Feel better hot water? (Imagine winking smilie here).

I really did not mean to offend you and sincerely apologize if I did. (Expressionless smilie face to represent my feelings of contrition).

If the term hypocrisy seems too strong let me just clearly state that I believe that you criticized Roger for something and then did the same thing yourself. I have no reason to believe that you are a habitual hypocrite and in no way did I mean to convey that. (Another expressionless smilie, see above.)

I agree with you and Waylon that servicabilty outside the equipment bay is better on a thermopane spa I agree with Roger that this aspect is not important and should not be a consideration when buying a spa – it should be a non-issue for the vast majority of buyers, as I said before. I really don’t see the contradiction here. By the way, you can further improve the serviceability of your thermopane spa by permanently removing the panels. (Big grinning smilie here).

I also want to take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time to post in this forum. A forum would not amount to much if people didn’t participate. I usually enjoy your articulate, lengthy, well written posts. I reserve the right to disagree with your thinking and logic from time to time although I often believe that what you say is useful. I have learned much from you, not least of which is that you do not often retire from a thread without getting in the last word. (Winking smilie again).

Let bury the hatchet. I’ll try to unwrap myself from the axel and move on (Basic smilie)

I'll get in the last word again.

Peace.

Well done. Peace it is...