Spa Shell Material & Construction

[Altazi]

Hello to all of you who have much more knowledge and experience than myself. I am currently shopping for a new spa, and have already re-started a discussion on Thermopane vs. Full-Foam construction elsewhere.

Here I would like to make sense of the spa shell construction. The shell must surely be the most critical portion of the spa, and I would like to make an informed choice. I have physically looked at the Arctic spas, and plan to look at Marquis and possibly Hot Springs. I have been researching the various manufacturer's websites to find out as much as I could, but of course, the material there is not completely objective

I would like to purchase a spa with a well-constructed shell. I have seen some information that seems odd or sketchy to me, and I would like you to comment on this.

Hot Springs Spas - their website says their shells are made of acrylic bonded to ABS. I have designed with ABS before, and I know that the characteristics of ABS don't seem to match those of the acrylic sheet. Is this a problem, or something so clever I don't understand it?

Full-Foam insulation as a structural material - Whether or not it makes thermal sense to use full-foam, I would just as soon have a shell structure that doesn't depend upon the insulation for support.

Which spas have better (or poorer) shell construction, and why? Which (if any) have had documented problems? Which have proven to be paragons of reliability?

I respect the opinions of dealers and salespeople. If you are one of these, please mention this in your reply. Personally, I couldn't sell a product that I didn't believe in, so I welcome your comments.

Thanks in advance for your kind comments.

Altazi

[Hot H2o]

Hello to all of you who have much more knowledge and experience than myself. I am currently shopping for a new spa, and have already re-started a discussion on Thermopane vs. Full-Foam construction elsewhere.

Here I would like to make sense of the spa shell construction. The shell must surely be the most critical portion of the spa, and I would like to make an informed choice. I have physically looked at the Arctic spas, and plan to look at Marquis and possibly Hot Springs. I have been researching the various manufacturer's websites to find out as much as I could, but of course, the material there is not completely objective

I would like to purchase a spa with a well-constructed shell. I have seen some information that seems odd or sketchy to me, and I would like you to comment on this.

Hot Springs Spas - their website says their shells are made of acrylic bonded to ABS. I have designed with ABS before, and I know that the characteristics of ABS don't seem to match those of the acrylic sheet. Is this a problem, or something so clever I don't understand it?

Full-Foam insulation as a structural material - Whether or not it makes thermal sense to use full-foam, I would just as soon have a shell structure that doesn't depend upon the insulation for support.

Which spas have better (or poorer) shell construction, and why? Which (if any) have had documented problems? Which have proven to be paragons of reliability?

I respect the opinions of dealers and salespeople. If you are one of these, please mention this in your reply. Personally, I couldn't sell a product that I didn't believe in, so I welcome your comments.

Thanks in advance for your kind comments.

Altazi

When acrylic is drawn down into the mold it gets as thin as a piece of paper. That is why those shells are laminated. Best shells are Thermal plastics like Hot Spring or Dimension One UltraLife. You'll NEVER have to replace those shells and there aren't any problems with full foaming them. Those shells can move, expand, and contract without cracking. And, if you're buying a good shell, the equipment is going to be top notch.

[Chas]

Look at it this way: HotSpring has been using the coextruded material with foam backing for close to 29 years. They sell more spas than most of their competition combined. They have a 7 year warranty, which you can download at their web site.

The foam is put on in layers: first a 30# density about an inch thick is sprayed on the back of the shell. This is done by NCR machine in a temperature-controlled enviornment. Then the plumbing is installed and many tests are done. Then the plumbing is encapsulated in a thick layer of 10# foam. This supports the plumbing and quiets it, but it also adds to the structural integrity of the whole unit, as these plumbing areas act as beams all the way around the tub.

After much more testing etc, the cavities are filled with a mixture of 1 and 2# density foam, and finally a 60# density layer is floated on to seal the bottom of the spa. That last layer is almost as hard as the top of the tub - and is obviously put on as the spa sits inverted.

To see the huge machine pick up the spa after all the foaming is done - it grabs it in a giant clamp that looks like something that should be used to crush cars at the metal yard - and flip it over in a couple of seconds is amazing. Most any other spa couldn't stand the pressure of just that one machine: that made a believer out of me!

The things are monolithic - you do NOT need to fear a tub which is 'held up by the insulation.'

[Jim_The_Jim]

When acrylic is drawn down into the mold it gets as thin as a piece of paper. That is why those shells are laminated. Best shells are Thermal plastics like Hot Spring or Dimension One UltraLife. You'll NEVER have to replace those shells and there aren't any problems with full foaming them. Those shells can move, expand, and contract without cracking. And, if you're buying a good shell, the equipment is going to be top notch.

The biggest problem with acrylic and ABS is that as the acrylic ages it loses its flexibility as it dries out. It becomes more like fiberglass in its expansion and contraction.

When a spa is made with ABS under acryilc that ABS will continue to expand and contract much more than the acrylic. This is what causes the surface cracks on these spas.

It takes skills to use fiberglass and it takes a lot of air filtering and special equipment to do it. It costs more than simple ABS acrylic stuffed with foam to save manufacturing costs.

All of the brands with any ethics have changed from ABS/Acrylic to acrylic, vinylester, and hand rolled fiberglass, including Cal Spas, Sundance, Beachcomber, Aber, PDC and many others because of the issues with aging.

The other major problem with ABS/Acrylic stuffed with foam to hold it together, is that it makes for horrible crack repairs. You can't just do a surface repair, you have to go an dig out all the foam, put a patch on the back side, then do a surface repair, average of $900 to $1000. (We got two Hot Spring owners who dumped their spas and bought from us, simply because of this problem.)

The repair does not look good and as the spa continues to age it will get more cracks.

One of my customers is a composite engineer for Boeing. If you want to know about composites, talk to experts as I do.

There is no perfect composite, but it is much better to have a surface that is much easier to repair, and the shell won't leak if it gets a surface crack because it can't crack through on fiberglass.

What I would like to see in future shells is a single sheet of high tech ceramic type of material with no lamination. It would be structurally strong enough to stand anything, and it would never have any dissimilar expansion and contraction to any materials, because there are no other materials.

This could also be done with a high impact plastic material in about 1/2 inch thick to start. The problem with that is also in the molding. You can't get really drastic curves with a thick material. Just look at D1 and Hot Spring. You will never see the details of molds in them. They have very few special effects like "reverse molding" or over hang collars, because the ABS acrylic will not lend itself to that tight of curves.

There are multiple disadvantages to ABS/acrylic.

[tumbleweed]

Why even bother answering this mans posts. All it does is feed his ego. Many times if you ignore a pest he will go away. Whenever he posts, the best reply would be a link to the selberg site of any other link that exposes him to the uninitiated and leave it at that. I for one will start at once.

As for the moderators of this forum, please realize the damage this man does to our industry and remove him from this forum.

Thank You

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

[Chas]

The biggest problem with acrylic and ABS is that as the acrylic ages it loses its flexibility as it dries out. It becomes more like fiberglass in its expansion and contraction.

Dries out? Just exactly how does a non-porus plastic sheet, which is constantly under water 'dry out?' And even if it did, how exactly is that going to alter it's expansion coefficient?

When a spa is made with ABS under acryilc that ABS will continue to expand and contract much more than the acrylic. This is what causes the surface cracks on these spas.

Well, then I guess you had better tell the owners of well over 700,000 HotSpring tubs - and thousands from other makers as well - that there is some sort of problem. They sure don't seem to know it.

It takes skills to use fiberglass and it takes a lot of air filtering and special equipment to do it. It costs more than simple ABS acrylic stuffed with foam to save manufacturing costs.

I would agree that both methods take skill. HotSpring is ISO-9001 certified through Lloyds. They are NSF certified. They are ETL certified. They have five Consumers Digest 'Best Buy' awards. I think the quality speaks for itself. Further - exactly what do you base your guess about how much it costs to make a tub? You do not manufacture tubs, you simply sell them.

All of the brands with any ethics have changed from ABS/Acrylic to acrylic, vinylester, and hand rolled fiberglass, including Cal Spas, Sundance, Beachcomber, Aber, PDC and many others becasue of the issues with aging.

Sundance has always been made with fiberglass. And I would bet that HotSpring sells more than the rest of those combined, so it hardly speaks to the issue. Both methods work, there is no reason to be afraid of one or the other. BUT - you should stick with a brand name, and not take negative info about a brand from a competitor of that brand.

[Altazi]

Altazi here. I don't know about any history between you guys, but I'd like to keep the discussion centered on the physical properties of the spa shell. I'll warn you - I am prone to over-analyzing things, but I'd rather do that than just jump into a bad investment blindly.

I looked up the properties of a standard acrylic sheet plastic. I don't know if this is exactly what HotSpring is using, but I would imagine it's close. The datasheet says that it has limited resistance to chlorine gas; since the spa could have chlorine or bromine ions in solution, I would expect that this could affect the acrylic in similar fashion. This is an assumption, but I could imagine that any of the halogens (e.g., bromine) would have a similar effect. It is conceivable that long-term exposure to halogen ions could result in the plastic becoming more brittle, but I would like to see more data on this. This would apply to ANY spa using acrylic in contact with water, not just HotSprings.

I wouldn't exactly call this "drying out", although some plastics can lose some plasticizers over time, making them more brittle. Example: vinyl in a new car. Much of the "new car smell" is the plasticizers evaporating. Ever see an old car with cracked vinyl on the dash. That's what happens.

For what it's worth, the datasheet also says that the acrylic is susceptible to ethanol in concentrations over 30%, so watch those strong drinks, boys!

Almost all materials expand when heated. The acrylic sheet has a coefficient of thermal expansion of 0.0004in/in/degree F. ABS (Acrylonytrile Butadiene Styrene) has a coefficient of thermal expansion of 0.000053in/in/degree F. Over a 100" length of the two plastics at 70 degrees F, the acrylic will increase in length by 0.12 inches when heated to 100 degrees F; the ABS will increase in length by 0.159 inches. The ABS expands about 1.3x more than the acrylic. This differential would certainly seem to create some stress. Working in the tub's favor is the fact that there are no wide temperature swings - the water in the tub should be held at a relatively stable temperature. I'd certainly like a lot more detail on this one, for sure. However, one certainly can't discount the number of HotSprings tubs out in the field, for years and years. There must be more to it. . .

Is Jim correct regarding the crack repair procedure on the HS tub? That sounds like it could be a serious disadvantage down the road. . .

Thanks again for your advice!

[deestruhart]

[

Is Jim correct regarding the crack repair procedure on the HS tub? That sounds like it could be a serious disadvantage down the road. . .

Jim has a history of knocking down his competition there are alot of good hot tub copanies around.

Hot Springs is one of the industries best. I have not heard of any shell problems. All manufacturers will have some service calls, but do they all have a good warranty to back it up?

[tumbleweed]

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

[Jim_The_Jim]

[

Is Jim correct regarding the crack repair procedure on the HS tub? That sounds like it could be a serious disadvantage down the road. . .

Jim has a history of knocking down his competition there are alot of good hot tub copanies around.

Hot Springs is one of the industries best. I have not heard of any shell problems. All manufacturers will have some service calls, but do they all have a good warranty to back it up?

I have a history of knocking spa design and materials based upon a lot of research. You, know, reading, studying, and talking with experts. The kind of things that consumers don't do, and spa sales people avoid like the plague.

I keep abreast of as many of the spa shell cracks as I can, and anything else that is hot tub related. If you subscribe to all the news, you can get it.

There have been many, of the Hot Spring shells that have cracked out and many out of warranty of 7 years.

The average cost to fix is $890, or you can do it yourself.

Now if you have a sociopathic corporation they really don't even care about that, because they know darn well that the chances of the shell lasting 7 years is pretty good, so they don't have to fork out any money to fix them and the labor component is 5 years. So, for two years you can get a free repair kit.

I don't want any spas of ours, not one, that does that. I don't want any percentage of known and anticipated problems, VS cost of the shell. I just want the best shell.

I want what reflects my ethics. I did not say any shell is perfect, but if the shell is fiberglass, and it lasts over a year, well within all the labor warranties of any spa, the odds are pretty good that it will last for 25 years and the shell will not leak. That is why many of the companies with fiberglass offer 10 to 20 year shell warranties.

Altazi here. I don't know about any history between you guys, but I'd like to keep the discussion centered on the physical properties of the spa shell. I'll warn you - I am prone to over-analyzing things, but I'd rather do that than just jump into a bad investment blindly.

I looked up the properties of a standard acrylic sheet plastic. I don't know if this is exactly what HotSpring is using, but I would imagine it's close. The datasheet says that it has limited resistance to chlorine gas; since the spa could have chlorine or bromine ions in solution, I would expect that this could affect the acrylic in similar fashion. This is an assumption, but I could imagine that any of the halogens (e.g., bromine) would have a similar effect. It is conceivable that long-term exposure to halogen ions could result in the plastic becoming more brittle, but I would like to see more data on this. This would apply to ANY spa using acrylic in contact with water, not just HotSprings.

I wouldn't exactly call this "drying out", although some plastics can lose some plasticizers over time, making them more brittle. Example: vinyl in a new car. Much of the "new car smell" is the plasticizers evaporating. Ever see an old car with cracked vinyl on the dash. That's what happens.

For what it's worth, the datasheet also says that the acrylic is susceptible to ethanol in concentrations over 30%, so watch those strong drinks, boys!

Almost all materials expand when heated. The acrylic sheet has a coefficient of thermal expansion of 0.0004in/in/degree F. ABS (Acrylonytrile Butadiene Styrene) has a coefficient of thermal expansion of 0.000053in/in/degree F. Over a 100" length of the two plastics at 70 degrees F, the acrylic will increase in length by 0.12 inches when heated to 100 degrees F; the ABS will increase in length by 0.159 inches. The ABS expands about 1.3x more than the acrylic. This differential would certainly seem to create some stress. Working in the tub's favor is the fact that there are no wide temperature swings - the water in the tub should be held at a relatively stable temperature. I'd certainly like a lot more detail on this one, for sure. However, one certainly can't discount the number of HotSprings tubs out in the field, for years and years. There must be more to it. . .

Is Jim correct regarding the crack repair procedure on the HS tub? That sounds like it could be a serious disadvantage down the road. . .

Thanks again for your advice!

During the "great depression" in Califorinia of 1991 to 93 or there abouts, some of the major brands tried the ABS idea.

I was the service manager for a "fix em all" service center in Colorado, we also sold acrylic, vinylester, fiberglass spas.

I got a call one day from a lady, who asked me how much trade in could she get for her Su#da### spa that was already replaced once and they would not replace it a second time.

In Colorado, when you drain a spa in winter, then put warm water in it to keep it from freezing while you fill it, you can easily thermal stress an Acrylic/ABS sheet. So, they told her that because she put in warm water, not hot, she cracked out the shell and the would not replace it.

I have delivered spas in Vermont in winter and we put in warm water because there is no problem in putting in up to 115 degree water on a cold fiberglass shell. 150 might be a problem but even so it would be very small amount of cracks.

The old Hot Spring shells were Rovel, Centrex which is a totally different material. They were continually chided about the yellow dog dishes setting in people's back yards. After a time the bromine used would cause the brownish yellow shell. Even though the spa manufacturer told them not to use bromine, the dealers in Colorado IHT told them to use it????

It was even written on the filter lid!

However, that material is much more thermally resilient, so it lasted pretty good. I still to this day dislike white shells that stain. It used to be funny about Hot Spring, because "you can get it in any color you like, as long as it's white". The started out white then changed color.

I have had hot spring people ask me how to get the stains out of their old Hot Spring. I told them to just live with it, because any chemical strong enough to change the color back to white is probably destructive to the surface.

[Jim_The_Jim]

What I was told by composite engineers is that it looses plasticizers, similar to acrylic paint as it dries out.

When they make ABS and Acrylic sheets the material is fused together.. That means that any expansion of one material will effect the other material. According to the composite engineer I talked with the ABS expands more than Acylic and the expansion rates become more dissimilar as it ages.

Things like chemicals, heat cold and time change the characteristics of the new materials as they age.

You should actually read about it. It is sort of interesting for us "nerd / jocks". I used to get razzed by all the jocks because I did well in school, and science and math were my favorites, and I played football for a while. At one time there was nobody who could catch me in a foot race. When I was yonger I used to run everywhere. I used to run over to my friends houses. I thought I would go off on a tangent because this subject has already been covered about 300 times with you and you still have not read a single bit of information separate from your delusional factory.

If you want to find out about things, you need to get away from that factory and find the truth.

It wasn't until about 1997 (correct me if I am wrong.) that Hot Spring started the ABS Acyrylic and still called it Endurol or some such bull s### name that sounds like it will last.

The Acrylic companies have been trying to change the acrylic so it will last longer before it cracks. I think they are making it softer, by adding more plasticizers.

You need to get out once in a while, Chas.

Out and as far away as you can get your soul from those liars.

What I was told by composite engineers is that it looses plasticizers, similar to acrylic paint as it dries out.

When they make ABS and Acrylic sheets the material is fused together.. That means that any expansion of one material will effect the other material. According to the composite engineer I talked with the ABS expands more than Acylic and the expansion rates become more dissimilar as it ages.

Things like chemicals, heat cold and time change the characteristics of the new materials as they age.

You should actually read about it. It is sort of interesting for us "nerd / jocks". I used to get razzed by all the jocks because I did well in school, and science and math were my favorites, and I played football for a while. At one time there was nobody who could catch me in a foot race. When I was younger I used to run everywhere. I used to run over to my friends houses. I thought I would go off on a tangent because this subject has already been covered about 300 times with you and you still have not read a single bit of information separate from your delusional factory.

If you want to find out about things, you need to get away from that factory and find the truth.

It wasn't until about 1997 (correct me if I am wrong.) that Hot Spring started the ABS Acyrylic and still called it Endurol or some such bull s### name that sounds like it will last.

The Acrylic companies have been trying to change the acrylic so it will last longer before it cracks. I think they are making it softer, by adding more plasticizers.

You need to get out once in a while, Chas.

Out and as far away as you can get your soul from those liars.

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

Tumbleweed. What do you have to do with Hot Spring?

Why are you doing this? What advantage is it to your company to have Hot Spring exposed?

I think you are pathetic, if you use a 6 year old complaint from a guy who got all his money back as your only way to get even with me for making you sound stupid.

Instead, why don't you read and learn something, you know? Improve yourself with knowledge???

That might put some stress on your brains, but it is really is good to learn.

I was talking with a retired doctor, customer of mine. He told me that doctors don't seem to get alzheimer's disease as much as other professions. His theory on it is that they are forced to learn every year and all the time to be able to keep up with all the new methods, medications and discoveries in medicine.

I have found that by keeping my mind open and reading and learning and communicating that my intelligence continues to be very keen at 58 years old.

You should try it!

[Chas]

The old Hot Spring shells were Rovel, Centrex which is a totally different material. They were continually chided about the yellow dog dishes setting in people's back yards. After a time the bromine used would cause the brownish yellow shell. Even though the spa manufacturer told them not to use bromine, the dealers in Colorado IHT told them to use it????

It was even written on the filter lid!

However, that material is much more thermally resilient, so it lasted pretty good. I still to this day dislike white shells that stain. It used to be funny about Hot Spring, because "you can get it in any color you like, as long as it's white". The started out white then changed color.

I have had hot spring people ask me how to get the stains out of their old Hot Spring. I told them to just live with it, because any chemical strong enough to change the color back to white is probably destructive to the surface.

Rovel was made in off-white only. The color name was "Ivory." If you were extremely careless with the pH, it would turn white from the waterline down. It was much later when they changed to offering pure white shells. I have not seen those discolor, or I should say I have not seen them stain - I have seen white tubs with stains from trees/shrubs/flowers - but once the tub was filled and running the chlorine took the color off slowly.

I have seen lots of the way older tubs where the owners have scrubbed right through the Rovel and exposed the ABS by using coarse scrub pads or rags and Comet. THOSE babies turned all kinds of color from yellow to brown! But only where the ABS was exposed.

Today's shells have been trouble-free for many years. I haven'd had any of the stuff JA is talking about, and I have sold these things since 1987.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Rovel was made in off-white only. The color name was "Ivory." If you were extremely careless with the pH, it would turn white from the waterline down. It was much later when they changed to offering pure white shells. I have not seen those discolor, or I should say I have not seen them stain - I have seen white tubs with stains from trees/shrubs/flowers - but once the tub was filled and running the chlorine took the color off slowly.

I have seen lots of the way older tubs where the owners have scrubbed right through the Rovel and exposed the ABS by using coarse scrub pads or rags and Comet. THOSE babies turned all kinds of color from yellow to brown! But only where the ABS was exposed.

Today's shells have been trouble-free for many years. I haven'd had any of the stuff JA is talking about, and I have sold these things since 1987.

You know I don't say this quote over and over for no reason.

The obvious is not obvious until it is obvious.

If the rovel was "trouble free" then why did Hot Spring Change?

Were they trying to sabotage the company? Were they trying to compete with other companies with more colors? Why not leave a "good thing" alone?

The reality is nearly ever Hot Spring spa I have seen has staining on the shell in Colorado. Above the water line is a different color than below the water line. I believe from what I know that was why they put the tile at the water line to stop the abrupt change of color.

Hot Spring people seem to have this fantasy vision, that when the factory does something, they are God and whatever sales pitch they give you to sell it you better use it.

I am personally offended when I hear that crap. It is an insult to my intelligence to hear all this flowery airy fairy BS about why they changed the shells and that all the shell before the change were "God's gift to shells". That the new shell are also "God's new gift to shells".

Is there any reality in anything you type or say? Like when the spas caught fire. That was the result of all the amazing "real engineers" on staff at Watkins. It was the result of not following standard engineering principles. Like sticking a 240 V connection inside a steel box? Like developing a new heater that can withstand 240V, like increasing the water flow to stop the heater failures, and all the other obvious "real engineering stuff".

The only reason they change anything is money or being forced to change. There is no motivation to make an excellent product. The motivation is only money and to keep the spas from falling apart until the warranty runs out. By then, who is going to complain?

Here is some news for you. It is old news, but all of the other companies who have tried the ABS and Acrylic, who have any intelligence have dropped it. For two main reasons. 1/ predictable failures 2/ you can't mold in modern features like reverse molding and neck collars.

I remember when the real Coleman company came out with a really cheap spa. It was made with Centrex and full foam. It sold for about $3200 full retail. We never sold one for more than $2500. They made it that way because it is the cheapest manufacturing there is.

[Chas]

If the rovel was "trouble free" then why did Hot Spring Change?

The company which made Rovel stopped making it.

[wesj53]

Hello to all of you who have much more knowledge and experience than myself. I am currently shopping for a new spa, and have already re-started a discussion on Thermopane vs. Full-Foam construction elsewhere.

Here I would like to make sense of the spa shell construction. The shell must surely be the most critical portion of the spa, and I would like to make an informed choice. I have physically looked at the Arctic spas, and plan to look at Marquis and possibly Hot Springs. I have been researching the various manufacturer's websites to find out as much as I could, but of course, the material there is not completely objective

I would like to purchase a spa with a well-constructed shell. I have seen some information that seems odd or sketchy to me, and I would like you to comment on this.

Hot Springs Spas - their website says their shells are made of acrylic bonded to ABS. I have designed with ABS before, and I know that the characteristics of ABS don't seem to match those of the acrylic sheet. Is this a problem, or something so clever I don't understand it?

Full-Foam insulation as a structural material - Whether or not it makes thermal sense to use full-foam, I would just as soon have a shell structure that doesn't depend upon the insulation for support.

Which spas have better (or poorer) shell construction, and why? Which (if any) have had documented problems? Which have proven to be paragons of reliability?

I respect the opinions of dealers and salespeople. If you are one of these, please mention this in your reply. Personally, I couldn't sell a product that I didn't believe in, so I welcome your comments.

Thanks in advance for your kind comments.

Altazi

[wesj53]

I am a brand new member and this is my first post. I am also a prospective buyer who has been researching to the best of my ability to discern the best product on the market at the best price point. I do not have a technical background in this area as some of you do so bear with any ignorance I may have. I agree with most who believe the shell is the most important part of the product. As Jim the Jim notes on his site, a consumer cannot know the exact engineered specs which each company uses to produce their products so those of us on the outside must make judgements without full knowledge. To my layman's perspective, however, it appears that my choice for a new unit is narrowed to Artesian and Cal Spas. They both utilize an acrylic base, then apply vinyl-ester resin and fiberglass wraps. Cal Spa goese even further with multiple fiberglass wraps, adding some sort of aluminum, and finally adding angle irons to support deeply pocketed areas. This seems to be unique in the industry and considering Cal Spas size, BBB ratings, and dealer network, and huge variety of styles, I am leaning in their direction. Artesian also seems to be an excellent mfg with a tremendous BBB rating, few complaints, and interesting selection of product, especially their Platinum line. To those who are Hot Springs dealers and supporters, I can only say that IMO they are overpriced for what a consumer gets, especially in terms of # of jets. I would suggest checking out BBB for this industry seems to be filled with less than honorable people. I was considering a Hydro Spa, but they have many complaints registered against them and BBB gives them an unsatisfactory rating. Bearfoot (a non-BBB member) also has not resolved a lot of complaints against them, which is a shame because they seem to make a nice product. By the way, Dimension One in their brochure states that their shells are made from Ultralife/Granitex/and Geloy (all trade names). Does anyone know what these substrates are? No one else in the industry to my knowledge uses these.

[flibotte]

Just my 2 cents but I wouldn't put the shell as anywhere near the most important part of a hot tub. If you buy a brand name spa with a good reputation I wouldn't worry to much about the shell. I see a lot of posts on here where people are buying a tub spend so much time worrying about things that when they finally get the tub realize weren't really that important (myself included). There are so many bells and whistles and each company does things a little different and each sales guy thinks his or hers is the best but at the end of the day you need to figure out what is really important to you and get the tub that meets your needs. You'll see it on here a million times but I think there is nothing more important that a wet test to find out what tub is most comfortable to you. Because when all is said and done and after a hard days work and you are sitting down in your new tub you will not be thinking about how much Ultralife/Granitex/or Geloy is in your shell.

[Jim_The_Jim]

The company which made Rovel stopped making it.

And, what material that is almost identical has replaced it from the plastics manufacturers?

And, what material that is almost identical has replaced it from the plastics manufacturers?

I did a search and found that Rovel is all over the place, used in many applications.

http://www.accenttops.com/USED%20TOPPERS.htm

Here is just one.

Who told you that Rovel is not available?

Why is it that many major players are using acrylic, vinylester, adn fiberglass now, if acrylic and ABS is so good?

And, what material that is almost identical has replaced it from the plastics manufacturers?

I did a search and found that Rovel is all over the place, used in many applications.

http://www.accenttops.com/USED%20TOPPERS.htm

Here is just one.

Who told you that Rovel is not available?

Chas, I can assure you that if you company with all the spas they have, wanted to buy 30,000 sheets of Rovel, somebody would make it for you.

Why is it that many major players are using acrylic, vinylester, adn fiberglass now, if acrylic and ABS is so good?

[LoneStar]

You are asking the right questions!!!

1. Full Foam(must have)- it serves three puposes. Girst it supports you plumbing not your shell, to provent leaks. Second, it also supports you plumbing in shipping! Third and most important, it holds in the heat of the water so you dont spend more money on your electrice bill.

2. ABS and fiberglass are both great support to the shell! I would pay more attition to the quality of the manf.!

3. In my opinion D1 Spas are the best out there!

Will

Owner

Hello to all of you who have much more knowledge and experience than myself. I am currently shopping for a new spa, and have already re-started a discussion on Thermopane vs. Full-Foam construction elsewhere.

Here I would like to make sense of the spa shell construction. The shell must surely be the most critical portion of the spa, and I would like to make an informed choice. I have physically looked at the Arctic spas, and plan to look at Marquis and possibly Hot Springs. I have been researching the various manufacturer's websites to find out as much as I could, but of course, the material there is not completely objective

I would like to purchase a spa with a well-constructed shell. I have seen some information that seems odd or sketchy to me, and I would like you to comment on this.

Hot Springs Spas - their website says their shells are made of acrylic bonded to ABS. I have designed with ABS before, and I know that the characteristics of ABS don't seem to match those of the acrylic sheet. Is this a problem, or something so clever I don't understand it?

Full-Foam insulation as a structural material - Whether or not it makes thermal sense to use full-foam, I would just as soon have a shell structure that doesn't depend upon the insulation for support.

Which spas have better (or poorer) shell construction, and why? Which (if any) have had documented problems? Which have proven to be paragons of reliability?

I respect the opinions of dealers and salespeople. If you are one of these, please mention this in your reply. Personally, I couldn't sell a product that I didn't believe in, so I welcome your comments.

Thanks in advance for your kind comments.

Altazi

[Glenn]

You are asking the right questions!!!

1. Full Foam(must have)- it serves three puposes. Girst it supports you plumbing not your shell, to provent leaks. Second, it also supports you plumbing in shipping! Third and most important, it holds in the heat of the water so you dont spend more money on your electrice bill.

2. ABS and fiberglass are both great support to the shell! I would pay more attition to the quality of the manf.!

3. In my opinion D1 Spas are the best out there!

Will

Owner

I bought an Arctic Tundra, looks, fit, quality seems apparent, sales people seemed knowledgeable, let you know after its in on tuesday, I dont agree with the full foam theory, i would rather get at the leak if one came up and to say that there is so much pressure is ridiculous, we would be foaming under the hood of our cars if that was the case or any other hydraulic hose, plumbed fitting etc. to each his own I guess in my opinion on another sub topic of these posts, tumbleweed makes Jim look like a great salesperson the interaction between Jim and Eric makes this Eric customer look like the lASSt customer any person would want to deal with. IMO.

Glenn

[Chas]

I did a search and found that Rovel is all over the place, used in many applications.

http://www.accenttops.com/USED%20TOPPERS.htm

Here is just one.

Not quite convincing: the link you posted is for USED camper shells. Yes, some of them may very well be made of Rovel. I had a Brahma shell on a 1989 Chevy truck. I sold it long ago.

To get this thread back on topic: ABS-backed Acrylic is a fine choice. The most popular tubs in the industry are made that way, and they have a 7 year warranty. Want to have fiberglass backing? Fine. Go look at Caldera.

The choice is up to the consumer - but I would put comfort, performance and style ahead of the shell material.

[waterbear]

The choice is up to the consumer - but I would put comfort, performance and style ahead of the shell material.

VERY good advice, IMHO!

[hottub.pool_boy]

Innovators have to come up with something new to be innovative.

How many acrylic/ fiberglass blister zits have I've popped in spas manufacturered in less than controlled environments.

Using the same old flow thru heaters, air blowers, warm air insulation(as long as the wind isn't blowing it out of the compartment). I can do that in my garage too. But I better spend my time selling a nationally backed product with over 500 dealers in the U.S.

If a Shell is Great, it will have a great warranty. PERIOD.

Chas wrote: The choice is up to the consumer - but I would put comfort, performance and style ahead of the shell material.

Why get hung up on one component. I suppose next we'll be disecting an air blower and looking at if the brushes are replaceable when they burn out.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Not quite convincing: the link you posted is for USED camper shells. Yes, some of them may very well be made of Rovel. I had a Brahma shell on a 1989 Chevy truck. I sold it long ago.

To get this thread back on topic: ABS-backed Acrylic is a fine choice. The most popular tubs in the industry are made that way, and they have a 7 year warranty. Want to have fiberglass backing? Fine. Go look at Caldera.

The choice is up to the consumer - but I would put comfort, performance and style ahead of the shell material.

Chas; That doesn't answer what I posted, I see you are side stepping again.

If some spa company came to me, as a plastic manufacture, and told me that they wanted 30,000 sheets of rovel, I would be an idiot not to make it for them.

Somebody has been lying to you. Golly gee!

I really just want all the flim flam and sales crap to disappear and for reality and truth to prevail.

You have a lot of answers that sound good to ignorant customers, and that is not good for you in the eyes of

.......... You figure it out?

It doesn't matter what you believe and what you WANT to believe. The only thing that matters is the truth.

I remember reading a "T" shirt that said (back in the 60's) "There is no religion higher than the TRUTH."

I tend to agree.

Oh! Yea! Caldera is another brand that dropped the ABS acrylic, before Watkins bought them. If the fiberglass is better thatn ABS Acrylic, then why is Hot Spring more expensive?

Innovators have to come up with something new to be innovative.

How many acrylic/ fiberglass blister zits have I've popped in spas manufacturered in less than controlled environments.

Using the same old flow thru heaters, air blowers, warm air insulation(as long as the wind isn't blowing it out of the compartment). I can do that in my garage too. But I better spend my time selling a nationally backed product with over 500 dealers in the U.S.

If a Shell is Great, it will have a great warranty. PERIOD.

Chas wrote: The choice is up to the consumer - but I would put comfort, performance and style ahead of the shell material.

Why get hung up on one component. I suppose next we'll be disecting an air blower and looking at if the brushes are replaceable when they burn out.

Yes. And consumers are at the mercy of sales people who have no idea what the hell they are selling.

[tumbleweed]

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...sage-boards.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...ory/factory.htm

http://www.poolandspa.com:8080/upload/spa%20specialist.jpg

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain