Spa Shell Material & Construction

[Jim_The_Jim]

"OAS. Many manufacturers utilize OAS (Olefin Acrylonitrile-Styrene) as the shell surface material under different names (such as Rovel or Ultralife), however, they are all essentially the same material. The proper nomenclature for OAS (be prepared for a mouthful) is ASA/AES terpolymer, which is an acrylic-styrene-acrylonitrile blend with olefin modified acrylonitrile-styrene co-extruded over acrylonitrile-butadiene-styrene (ABS) backing. OAS is a good alternative to acrylic because it is a less expensive material and may reduce the total cost of your spa. In addition, some people have found that they prefer the simplistic appearance of this plastic material over the luster that is typical of acrylic."

Humm? The manufacturer stopped making Rovel?????

Here is more for you, Chas.

"General Signals, Inc. -- The Survivor gate arm has an 18-ft base section that is manufactured from an 8-ft aluminum sleeve in conjunction with a 14-ft extruded Rovel plastic section that has a triangle cross section. Rovel weatherable polymer is an engineering thermoplastic that combines weatherability, heat distortion and impact strength. If needed, a second section, up to 12 ft in length, made of pultruded fiberglass, is available. Phone: 812-474-4256."

"OAS (Olefin Acrylonitrile-Styrene)

Many manufacturers utilize OAS as the shell surface material under different names (such as Rovel, Endurol, or Ultralife), however; they are all essentially the same materials. The proper nomenclature for OAS (be prepared for a mouthful) is ASA/AES terpolymer, which is an acrylic-styrene-acrylonitrile blend with olefin modified acrylonitrile-styrene co-extruded over acrylonitrile-butadiene-styrene (ABS) backing. OAS is a good alternative to acrylic because it is a less expensive material and may produce a slight saving on the total cost of your spa. In addition, some people have found that they prefer the simplistic appearance of this plastic material to the luster that is typical of acrylic.

A negative to OAS is that it is a porous material, which can make the surface more difficult to clean than acrylic. In addition, OAS is usually available only in light solid colors, primarily white, which only adds to the difficulty in its cleaning. Darker colors are avoided with OAS because it was found that when those spas were drained, there would be significant color variations between the areas above and below the water line. In order to mask this problem, some manufacturers utilize tile around the waterline, which can be a good solution. Stain resistance can also present a problem for OAS. Stains that are common with spas can include shoe polish, lipstick, tar, grease, and marker. These, and many other stains, are difficult to remove from OAS, especially for the lighter colors that cannot hide the stains. An additional problem for OAS is the staining that occurs from the use of well water or water with a high iron content. It can be nearly impossible to remove rust stains from OAS, and it is not recommended to use OAS if you have well water or water with a high iron content.

OAS can also limit the types of chemical sanitizers that you use. Most OAS manufacturers restrict you from using chlorine to sanitize the spa water because the chlorine can discolor the plastic surface. Most manufacturers will actually invalidate the warranty if the consumer uses chlorine. In addition, some warranties will become void if the recommended sanitizers come in contact with the shell surface area that is above the waterline. This can be a problem because many consumers are not always so careful with their hot tub maintenance. Also, most consumers do not wish to be restricted to using only certain types of chemical sanitizers."

[tumbleweed]

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/erik_journal.html

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...sage-boards.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/fi...ory/factory.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/files/general.htm

http://www.selberg.org/~speed/havenspas/files/as.htm

http://www.poolandspa.com:8080/upload/spa%20specialist.jpg

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain

[Chas]

Chas; That doesn't answer what I posted, I see you are side stepping again.

If some spa company came to me, as a plastic manufacture, and told me that they wanted 30,000 sheets of rovel, I would be an idiot not to make it for them.

Somebody has been lying to you. Golly gee!

What difference does any of this make? I was told it was dicontinued, it was in the trade publications at the time, and I believe it. Just as you have asked me to 'prove' it was, I will have to let you try to 'prove' it wasn't. I know you saw the following article from 1992 because you quote the two links which appeared in your own post above yet you failed to mention it because it shows support for my argument and not yours. Very interesting way to deal with the 'truth' Jim.

Here's the bottom line: a consumer can get a good product with a good shell material from many good brands. You can choose thermoplastic shells, with or without fiberglass backing. If they want to order from the HS "Classic Series," they can get the 'Endural,' and if they buy from D1 they can get the 'UltraLife.'

Now, as you have said, if HS or any other maker was to go order sheet material in large quantity, they could pretty much write their own ticket on how that sheet is made. Thickness, chemical makeup, and other attributes could be selected, they would not have to buy off the shelf. But instead of that convincing you, you use it as an argument AGAINST the obvious: Dow cut Rovel. They are a huge company, and they want to sell MILLIONS of whatever they make, be it gray paint to the Navy, airbags to Ford, bumper covers to General Motors, or whatever. They looked at the 50,000 tubs per year as small potatoes, and dropped it. The camper shell companies, outdoor playground makers, and all sorts of other buyers didn't add up to enough for them to keep it up.

So, if you want to find Rovel, I'm sure you can. People have purchased the rights to license it - that means that they can have it made by Dow, Monsanto, 3M, or any of a dozen other fine folks. When given the chance to buy the rights, HotSpring moved on to another material, and so did D1. Are they both using Centrex? You would have to ask them, because they both claim to be using proprietary materials, and my guess is that they have contracted to have a material made which is just right for the job. They must like the results they are getting, they both offer good warranties on the shells.

Just for those who care any more about this thread, here is the article that I got by Googling 'Rovel Plastic.' I put the copyright info below for proper credit. Note the two links which Mr. Arjuna quoted, even though he did not appear to like the fact that the whole article seems to back up my assertion.

____________________________

Suppliers locked in their own civil war [/size=2]- plastic industry - Materials '92

Ward's Auto World, Sept, 1991 by Stephen E. Plumb

Find More Results for: "rovel plastic "

General Signals, Inc -...

Survivor gate arm -...

Plastics' traditional enemy has always been steel. Now, instead of teaming up against a common opponent, it's plastics vs. plastics: thermosets battling thermoplastics, polymer against co-polymer.

Major battlegrounds include bumper systems, body panels and under-the-hood applications (see chart). And future victories will be decided by issues such as weight, temperature and impact resistance, recyclability and cost.

Skirmishing includes a urethane thermoset defeating a conventional thermoplastic on the 1991 Olds 98, and a new flexible sheet-molding compound (SMC) competing with thermoplastic an reaction injection molded (RIM) materials. More recently, a thermoplastic elastomer snapped up territory held by urethane, capturing a 1,000,000-unit air-bag enclosure prize.

As in any war, a great deal of churning is taking place, with some companies relinquishing certain segments and others advancing quickly to fill the voids.

Advertisement

Mosanto Chemical Co. of St. Louis, Mo., and Atlanta, Ga.-based Amoco Performance Products Inc., for example, are racing to kick up production as their competitors pull products from the market.

Monsanto is increasing output of its Centrex weatherable polymer to take up the slack for a similar material called Rovel produced by Midland, Mich.-based Dow Chemical Co. Dow is phasing out of Rovel production.

Amoco's Marietta, Ohio, plant, meanwhile, is gearing up to take over business created when ICI Americas Inc.'s Advanced Materials group decided to close its Victrex polyethersulfone (PES) plant in North Carolina.

Meantime, rising demand for safety-related components and other growth markets are attracting new competitors.

Posting a major triumph is Hoechst Celanese Corp.'s Engineering Plastics Div. in Chatham, N.J., as the company's Vandar thermoplastic elastomer is selected to produce more than a million air bag enclosures, unseating urethanes and other thermoset materials on '92 model cars.

Among the benefits Hoechst claims for Vandar vs. urethanes are better low-temperature elongation, improved dimensional stability and retention of properties over time -- plus greater in-process recyclability. It also cycles about 20% faster than competitive thermosets, Hoechst maintains.

Another thermoplastic, Du Pont Co.'s Bexloy K 550, is already in the driver's seat for 1993. The Wilmington, Del.-based company says the material will be used on the fenders of Chrysler Corp.'s new LH midsize cars arriving on market a year from now.

Winning an exterior body panel award is rare for a thermoplastic because the material typically cannot withstand high-temperature electrodeposition ovens during the painting cycle.

"It's a very big deal to survive 200degrees]C (392[degrees]F) and not look like a potato chip," attests Martin D. Drigotas, Du Pont's senior development programs manager.

Not to be outdone, SMC gets a boost from Troy, Mich.-based Budd Co.'s Plastics Div. Budd's new Hi-Flex promises to go head-to-head against thermoplastic and reaction injection molded (RIM) materials in vertical body-panel applications.

Because of its stiffness, SMC has been used in horizontal panels -- hoods, roofs and deck lids -- but only rarely in fenders, doors and other vertical panels.

Budd's Hi-Flex, however, is more damage-resistant, weighs less and is twice as flexible as conventional SMC, Budd says, yet it is less costly than competitive plastics.

SMC isn't the only thermost on the move. A new urethane from BASF's Automotive Urethane Specialties unit in Wyandotte, Mich., and Atoma International Inc.'s Howell, Mich.-based Versatrim Div., supplanted conventional thermoplastics in the door panels of the 1991 Olds 98 and is being added to the '92 Olds 88.

Interior trim parts, long dominated by plastics, also are caught in the war zone. Exxon Chemical Co.'s Exxon Chemical Polymers arm in Houston, Texas, for example, is attempting to dethrone acrilonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) with its high-crystallinity polypropylene (HCPP) Mytex material.

Fueled by OEM complaints about ABS warping on upper interior trim applications, Exxon touts Mytex as a high-quality, low-cost alternative. Mytex cost 35% less than a painted ABS part.

The war, it seems, is not only one of plastics vs. plastics, but also price.

COPYRIGHT 1991 PRIMEDIA Business Magazines & Media Inc. All rights reserved.

COPYRIGHT 2004 Gale Group

[Jim_The_Jim]

What difference does any of this make? I was told it was dicontinued, it was in the trade publications at the time, and I believe it. Just as you have asked me to 'prove' it was, I will have to let you try to 'prove' it wasn't. I know you saw the following article from 1992 because you quote the two links which appeared in your own post above yet you failed to mention it because it shows support for my argument and not yours. Very interesting way to deal with the 'truth' Jim.

Here's the bottom line: a consumer can get a good product with a good shell material from many good brands. You can choose thermoplastic shells, with or without fiberglass backing. If they want to order from the HS "Classic Series," they can get the 'Endural,' and if they buy from D1 they can get the 'UltraLife.'

Now, as you have said, if HS or any other maker was to go order sheet material in large quantity, they could pretty much write their own ticket on how that sheet is made. Thickness, chemical makeup, and other attributes could be selected, they would not have to buy off the shelf. But instead of that convincing you, you use it as an argument AGAINST the obvious: Dow cut Rovel. They are a huge company, and they want to sell MILLIONS of whatever they make, be it gray paint to the Navy, airbags to Ford, bumper covers to General Motors, or whatever. They looked at the 50,000 tubs per year as small potatoes, and dropped it. The camper shell companies, outdoor playground makers, and all sorts of other buyers didn't add up to enough for them to keep it up.

So, if you want to find Rovel, I'm sure you can. People have purchased the rights to license it - that means that they can have it made by Dow, Monsanto, 3M, or any of a dozen other fine folks. When given the chance to buy the rights, HotSpring moved on to another material, and so did D1. Are they both using Centrex? You would have to ask them, because they both claim to be using proprietary materials, and my guess is that they have contracted to have a material made which is just right for the job. They must like the results they are getting, they both offer good warranties on the shells.

Just for those who care any more about this thread, here is the article that I got by Googling 'Rovel Plastic.' I put the copyright info below for proper credit. Note the two links which Mr. Arjuna quoted, even though he did not appear to like the fact that the whole article seems to back up my assertion.

____________________________

Suppliers locked in their own civil war [/size=2]- plastic industry - Materials '92

Ward's Auto World, Sept, 1991 by Stephen E. Plumb

Find More Results for: "rovel plastic "

General Signals, Inc -...

Survivor gate arm -...

Plastics' traditional enemy has always been steel. Now, instead of teaming up against a common opponent, it's plastics vs. plastics: thermosets battling thermoplastics, polymer against co-polymer.

Major battlegrounds include bumper systems, body panels and under-the-hood applications (see chart). And future victories will be decided by issues such as weight, temperature and impact resistance, recyclability and cost.

Skirmishing includes a urethane thermoset defeating a conventional thermoplastic on the 1991 Olds 98, and a new flexible sheet-molding compound (SMC) competing with thermoplastic an reaction injection molded (RIM) materials. More recently, a thermoplastic elastomer snapped up territory held by urethane, capturing a 1,000,000-unit air-bag enclosure prize.

As in any war, a great deal of churning is taking place, with some companies relinquishing certain segments and others advancing quickly to fill the voids.

Advertisement

Mosanto Chemical Co. of St. Louis, Mo., and Atlanta, Ga.-based Amoco Performance Products Inc., for example, are racing to kick up production as their competitors pull products from the market.

Monsanto is increasing output of its Centrex weatherable polymer to take up the slack for a similar material called Rovel produced by Midland, Mich.-based Dow Chemical Co. Dow is phasing out of Rovel production.

Amoco's Marietta, Ohio, plant, meanwhile, is gearing up to take over business created when ICI Americas Inc.'s Advanced Materials group decided to close its Victrex polyethersulfone (PES) plant in North Carolina.

Meantime, rising demand for safety-related components and other growth markets are attracting new competitors.

Posting a major triumph is Hoechst Celanese Corp.'s Engineering Plastics Div. in Chatham, N.J., as the company's Vandar thermoplastic elastomer is selected to produce more than a million air bag enclosures, unseating urethanes and other thermoset materials on '92 model cars.

Among the benefits Hoechst claims for Vandar vs. urethanes are better low-temperature elongation, improved dimensional stability and retention of properties over time -- plus greater in-process recyclability. It also cycles about 20% faster than competitive thermosets, Hoechst maintains.

Another thermoplastic, Du Pont Co.'s Bexloy K 550, is already in the driver's seat for 1993. The Wilmington, Del.-based company says the material will be used on the fenders of Chrysler Corp.'s new LH midsize cars arriving on market a year from now.

Winning an exterior body panel award is rare for a thermoplastic because the material typically cannot withstand high-temperature electrodeposition ovens during the painting cycle.

"It's a very big deal to survive 200degrees]C (392[degrees]F) and not look like a potato chip," attests Martin D. Drigotas, Du Pont's senior development programs manager.

Not to be outdone, SMC gets a boost from Troy, Mich.-based Budd Co.'s Plastics Div. Budd's new Hi-Flex promises to go head-to-head against thermoplastic and reaction injection molded (RIM) materials in vertical body-panel applications.

Because of its stiffness, SMC has been used in horizontal panels -- hoods, roofs and deck lids -- but only rarely in fenders, doors and other vertical panels.

Budd's Hi-Flex, however, is more damage-resistant, weighs less and is twice as flexible as conventional SMC, Budd says, yet it is less costly than competitive plastics.

SMC isn't the only thermost on the move. A new urethane from BASF's Automotive Urethane Specialties unit in Wyandotte, Mich., and Atoma International Inc.'s Howell, Mich.-based Versatrim Div., supplanted conventional thermoplastics in the door panels of the 1991 Olds 98 and is being added to the '92 Olds 88.

Interior trim parts, long dominated by plastics, also are caught in the war zone. Exxon Chemical Co.'s Exxon Chemical Polymers arm in Houston, Texas, for example, is attempting to dethrone acrilonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) with its high-crystallinity polypropylene (HCPP) Mytex material.

Fueled by OEM complaints about ABS warping on upper interior trim applications, Exxon touts Mytex as a high-quality, low-cost alternative. Mytex cost 35% less than a painted ABS part.

The war, it seems, is not only one of plastics vs. plastics, but also price.

COPYRIGHT 1991 PRIMEDIA Business Magazines & Media Inc. All rights reserved.

COPYRIGHT 2004 Gale Group

Chas, You said that Hot Spring stopped using it because you can't get it any more. The reality is they stopped using it because of all the problems with stainning and every spa salesman in the country with a better shell was making it known about the discoloratoin of the Hot Spring shell. In the store where I used to work we had a used Hot Spring to show as an example.

This is just like when they vilated the UL and lost the UL. You keep saying they "chose to go with ETL". That is bull crap. They had no choice at that point. UL dropped them. No spa company is going to drop a UL listing after over 20 years and go with ETL. UL has much more clout with consumers. IT is like the most recognized NRTL there is and they wrote the standards.

You drink the "kool aid" that disgusting company feeds you because it fits you neediness and you desire to keep truth away from you so you can continue to make a living selling Hot Spring. That is weak and tells me a lot about people. I have no respect for someone who is that weak. What did they do put you in a brainwashing chamber and flash lighted sign at your eyes, with you eyelids pinned open. [FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH] [FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[FLASH] HOT SPRING IS YOUR NEW GOD! [FLASH]

[hottub.pool_boy]

Chas- 11:31am post.....................you'd think there was nothing more to say.......and there wasn't.........NICE!

[Chas]

UL dropped them. ...UL has much more clout with consumers....they wrote the standards.

Ok Jim, let's take what you just said and see how it compares to the assertion you make that UL dropped HotSpring.

ETL uses the UL/ANSI standard to test spas. So, a spa which is ETL listed has to have been tested to the very same standards as a spa which is UL listed. HotSpring is ETL listed, so they must be able to meet the UL standard. So how can you go around claiming that they 'lost' their UL listing? HotSpring is not the only manufacturing company to swap from UL to ETL, and I don't just mean in the spa industry.

Look Jim, just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

How did we get from Rovel to ETL?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Ok Jim, let's take what you just said and see how it compares to the assertion you make that UL dropped HotSpring.

ETL uses the UL/ANSI standard to test spas. So, a spa which is ETL listed has to have been tested to the very same standards as a spa which is UL listed. HotSpring is ETL listed, so they must be able to meet the UL standard. So how can you go around claiming that they 'lost' their UL listing? HotSpring is not the only manufacturing company to swap from UL to ETL, and I don't just mean in the spa industry.

Look Jim, just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

How did we get from Rovel to ETL?

You keep saying the same BS over and over. Maybe you need to open your mind just a little and let some truth in. Just a little truth won't hurt you.

MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY.

When a company is only about money, they use money as power to get what they want and hope that nobody notices.

Only an idiot would believe what you believe.

If you want to know how to live at peace, then you need to get in touch with your conscience and listen to it.

It is where God is inside of you. In your heart. It is not loving to lie to others in this world, even if you think you are making sense. You don't make any sense at all, but I guess you must feel better when you lie to yourself.

These are life lessons I am sharing with you. Life is better when you are in tune with the truth when your entire being is "jiving" with what Jesus teaches? When you go to church on Sunday, don't separate yourself when you go back to work on Monday. What God teaches is only good for you. Don't be like most people. Go to church on Sunday, then separate youself from God on Monday, by the "work" you do. Don't do anything that is not in harmony with God and you can be much more intelligent, much more creative, and live a better life.

That is what this is all about. It is about being truthful with yourself. It is about living in harmony with what your heart really knows. Don't be at war with your own true nature. Don't be a pupet for greedy people. Don't be one of them, be true to others and to yourself.

Chas, Your life is worth more than that.

[hottub.pool_boy]

Think I'll have to reconsider my relationship with the LORD. I've seen the light. It's changing color, OOPS--just jammed up the volume on the Spaudio. I see this guys mouth moving, as if he's talking, but no words are coming out.

[Altazi]

Let me start by saying that I am still doing research on spas. Some have taken issue with my comment that I regard the spa shell as the most important component. Let me explain my thinking on this; feel free to correct any misconceptions I might have. If your heater goes out, you get a new heater. If your pump goes out, you get a new pump. If your controls fail, you get new controls. If your spa shell fails, you get a new. . . spa. It doesn't seem practical to replace a spa shell, right?

I apologize to all, but I like to deeply research things. It's the way I think. I like to know as much as I can about something before I go and drop kilobucks on it. Sure, $8k-$10k isn't the end of the world, but I don't want any hassles down the road with the spa.

There seem to be quite a few opinions regarding design, materials, components, and manufacturing techniques. While some issues seem to be subjective, other issues seem pretty objective to me. The material choice of the spa shell seems to be easily rated for suitability for this application. Which material (or materials) are mechanically and chemically best suited for use as a spa shell, given the environmental conditions? Which materials require more care in manufacturing, to ensure a quality shell? There may two (or more) materials that are at the top of the list.

Having a good warranty is very important, but I would just as soon not have to USE the warranty, if possible.

Thanks to all who have responded. Keep the information coming!

Regards,

Altazi

[Chas]

Some have taken issue with my comment that I regard the spa shell as the most important component.

I don't think there is anything wrong with looking deeply into this, but I think what at least I am trying to convey is that if you go with a major name spa, you will have a good shell. It might have one type of construction or another, but they are going to stand behind it and you'll have years of trouble-free service.

On the other hand, even if you go with a stainless steel spa - and yes, they do make them - but perhaps the company goofs up on some part of the alloy choice or the welding or whatever, you will have a problem. But if they messed up on lots of tubs and they are a small company, they might not be around to help you out with it. Tough shell material, wimpy company.

So do lots of digging, ask lots of questions, choose the shell of your liking. But in the end, it is the company behind the shell warranty that makes the biggest difference.

I hope I mentioned this: HotSpring uses ABS-backed Acrylic, which is coextruded. That means that the plastic factory casts the Acrylic sheet, and then while it is still hot they cast another layer, this one of ABS. Since the two sheets are coextruded in this manner, they truly become one. Also, the specs of the Acrylic sheet are custom tuned to this application. As a result, they are not 'laminated,' and hence cannot delaminate.

Caldera uses cast Acrylic, but they back it with hand-laminated fiberglass. And, they do this fiberglass work in a wonderful place where there is no EPA. Because of that, they can use the 'hotter' resins, epoxies and adhesives which give a much lower likelyhood of delamination down the road. This wonderful place is not imaginary, Dr. Spa just went on vaction there. Mexico.

[Jim_The_Jim]

I don't think there is anything wrong with looking deeply into this, but I think what at least I am trying to convey is that if you go with a major name spa, you will have a good shell. It might have one type of construction or another, but they are going to stand behind it and you'll have years of trouble-free service.

On the other hand, even if you go with a stainless steel spa - and yes, they do make them - but perhaps the company goofs up on some part of the alloy choice or the welding or whatever, you will have a problem. But if they messed up on lots of tubs and they are a small company, they might not be around to help you out with it. Tough shell material, wimpy company.

So do lots of digging, ask lots of questions, choose the shell of your liking. But in the end, it is the company behind the shell warranty that makes the biggest difference.

I hope I mentioned this: HotSpring uses ABS-backed Acrylic, which is coextruded. That means that the plastic factory casts the Acrylic sheet, and then while it is still hot they cast another layer, this one of ABS. Since the two sheets are coextruded in this manner, they truly become one. Also, the specs of the Acrylic sheet are custom tuned to this application. As a result, they are not 'laminated,' and hence cannot delaminate.

Caldera uses cast Acrylic, but they back it with hand-laminated fiberglass. And, they do this fiberglass work in a wonderful place where there is no EPA. Because of that, they can use the 'hotter' resins, epoxies and adhesives which give a much lower likelyhood of delamination down the road. This wonderful place is not imaginary, Dr. Spa just went on vaction there. Mexico.

Chas, why are you wasting your intelligence selling a product that does not reflect even half of your intelligence.

Why are you wasting is a tremendous amount of creative intelligence on sales BS. Can you imagine for just a minute, please, what you could really accomplish if you got away from all that, excuses and sales BS. What you could create for yourself with using your intelligence for youself, not for some friggin sociopathic corporation?

What a waste of your intelligence. Everything they do is for money, and the amount of creativity is maybe .05%.

What a waste it is for you to use your intellingence for that crap.

I can tell you first hand how great it is to create something that nobody else can copy, because they are too stupid to even understand it.

You gotta get away from that sociopathic corporation and do something worth while with your life. Making money is not a it. Making money in an ethincal way, far away from idiots of screw with your ethics.

[Roger]

Sure, $8k-$10k isn't the end of the world, but I don't want any hassles down the road with the spa.

I have a 4000 dollar spa with a fiberglass backed acrylic shell. it is 5 years old and shows no wear or flaws on the shell. It has a lifetime warranty on the structure and 10 years on the shell. Do I think it will last 10 years? Yes as long as it stays supported properly, will I have this tub 10 years from now? Who knows probably not. I just don't think for some of us the warranty is as important as we make it. For me I did not use it except for 2 new jet faces, and they were shipped to me. Most tubs will last through the warranty with out any issues. And most high end ones will last alot longer with very few issues. And then it's time for a new one. Because technology forces it.

[Altazi]

I have a 4000 dollar spa with a fiberglass backed acrylic shell. it is 5 years old and shows no wear or flaws on the shell. It has a lifetime warranty on the structure and 10 years on the shell. Do I think it will last 10 years? Yes as long as it stays supported properly, will I have this tub 10 years from now? Who knows probably not. I just don't think for some of us the warranty is as important as we make it. For me I did not use it except for 2 new jet faces, and they were shipped to me. Most tubs will last through the warranty with out any issues. And most high end ones will last alot longer with very few issues. And then it's time for a new one. Because technology forces it.

Hello Roger,

That is a very pragmatic, common-sense approach, which I like very much. Although it looks like my spa will start out closer to $8000. . . I saw some Dimension One spas at a local dealer's parking lot sale, and I guess I got a bit sticker-shocked. I'm still not sure about spas over $10k - does one REALLY get that much more than in a $7000-$8000 unit?

Regards,

Altazi

[Roger]

Hello Roger,

That is a very pragmatic, common-sense approach, which I like very much. Although it looks like my spa will start out closer to $8000. . . I saw some Dimension One spas at a local dealer's parking lot sale, and I guess I got a bit sticker-shocked. I'm still not sure about spas over $10k - does one REALLY get that much more than in a $7000-$8000 unit?

Regards,

Altazi

I think it depends on what you are looking for. I like to sit in hot water and entertain or just relax. I'm not big on alot of power, just don't need it. I have one 3.5 HP pump, all I need. a 5.5 KW heater, which is good size but needed to keep the temp during those below 10 degree soaks. My tub is not real fancy but it is solid and it works for me. I may get another one some day but I have passed on 3 used ones so far that were in the 7-9 thousand range new, because the one I have is just fine. Seems you could spend 12,000 and get a real nice tub that may last 15-20 years which you may or may not bore with, or you could buy three 4000 dollar tubs that may last 20-30 years and you'll get a different seating layout every 7 years or so.

Little different perspective.

[Jim_The_Jim]

Hello Roger,

That is a very pragmatic, common-sense approach, which I like very much. Although it looks like my spa will start out closer to $8000. . . I saw some Dimension One spas at a local dealer's parking lot sale, and I guess I got a bit sticker-shocked. I'm still not sure about spas over $10k - does one REALLY get that much more than in a $7000-$8000 unit?

Regards,

Altazi

The Eclipse spas in our line are designed to beat out most any competitor. They use our older technology, with thermally closed and less horse power. They are in the 5 and 6 K range.

The Provence models are work horses and are used a lot in rental property because of the amazing reliablity. From $3600 to $5200. We created these models to compete directly with other spas costing in the 8k range.

The Eclipse Springville $7400 has never lost a wet test against any other brand of spa. (except for our other models.)

Think I'll have to reconsider my relationship with the LORD. I've seen the light. It's changing color, OOPS--just jammed up the volume on the Spaudio. I see this guys mouth moving, as if he's talking, but no words are coming out.

The Spaudio is another real rip off that you sell. And, I believe it can be dangerous to human organs.

Nobody has done any testing of powerful sound waves in water on the human body. When I play my guitar with 30 watts it is too loud. So at 300 watts of transducers in the water, what is that doing to human organs.

And the whole thing is a way to make spas without adding speakers.

Don't you ever think, or do you let Watkins do your thinking for you?

[grahamtasia]

So at 300 watts of transducers in the water, what is that doing to human organs.

The transducers are in the cabinet! Not in the water!

[Altazi]

The Eclipse spas in our line are designed to beat out most any competitor. They use our older technology, with thermally closed and less horse power. They are in the 5 and 6 K range.

The Provence models are work horses and are used a lot in rental property because of the amazing reliablity. From $3600 to $5200. We created these models to compete directly with other spas costing in the 8k range.

The Eclipse Springville $7400 has never lost a wet test against any other brand of spa. (except for our other models.)

The Spaudio is another real rip off that you sell. And, I believe it can be dangerous to human organs.

Nobody has done any testing of powerful sound waves in water on the human body. When I play my guitar with 30 watts it is too loud. So at 300 watts of transducers in the water, what is that doing to human organs.

And the whole thing is a way to make spas without adding speakers.

Don't you ever think, or do you let Watkins do your thinking for you?

Hello Jim,

Don't worry - you may be using a 30W amplifier, but you are not putting out a CONTINUOUS 30W of power. I would expect that most of the time, if you are just sitting around playing your guitar with your friends, etc., you are probably averaging under 1W. You may hit PEAKS of 30W every now and then. . .

Furthermore, most transducers' (speakers') conversion efficiency from ELECTRICAL watts of power to ACOUSTIC watts of power are relatively poor. The one area where I would maintain concern would be with the fact that the acoustic waves are entering the human body via water, an incompressible medium. - which provides a relatively efficient energy coupling. This is why they use that gel stuff when you get an ultrasound, to ensure good energy transfer. Also, medical ultrasounds are well into the ultrasonic frequency range - even into the MHz region. (There is a relationship with frequency and image resolution.)

I concede that continuous exposure to POWERFUL acoustic waves while immersed in a liquid medium COULD POSSIBLY result in some kind of damage. I would at least caution pregnant women regarding this, as I am unaware of any studies regarding this kind of application of low-frequency acoustic energy. I'd love to learn more about this. Anyone, any information???

Regards,

Altazi

Oh, if the transducers (speakers) are in the AIR, then just don't stick your ears right next to them!

[Jim_The_Jim]

Hello Jim,

Don't worry - you may be using a 30W amplifier, but you are not putting out a CONTINUOUS 30W of power. I would expect that most of the time, if you are just sitting around playing your guitar with your friends, etc., you are probably averaging under 1W. You may hit PEAKS of 30W every now and then. . .

Furthermore, most transducers' (speakers') conversion efficiency from ELECTRICAL watts of power to ACOUSTIC watts of power are relatively poor. The one area where I would maintain concern would be with the fact that the acoustic waves are entering the human body via water, an incompressible medium. - which provides a relatively efficient energy coupling. This is why they use that gel stuff when you get an ultrasound, to ensure good energy transfer. Also, medical ultrasounds are well into the ultrasonic frequency range - even into the MHz region. (There is a relationship with frequency and image resolution.)

I concede that continuous exposure to POWERFUL acoustic waves while immersed in a liquid medium COULD POSSIBLY result in some kind of damage. I would at least caution pregnant women regarding this, as I am unaware of any studies regarding this kind of application of low-frequency acoustic energy. I'd love to learn more about this. Anyone, any information???

Regards,

Altazi

Oh, if the transducers (speakers) are in the AIR, then just don't stick your ears right next to them!

If you can hear the sound of music coming from the water, that is a hell of a lot of energy going into the water. It also is $1800 and it does not sound very good. There are two transducers in the water. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN PUTTING SOMETHING IN A PRODUCT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION THAT HAS NOT BEEN TESTED.

The whole concept is that Hot Spring is to cheap to put in speakers and other companies have pop up speakers, and they have molded in speakers. We have both. It is a hassle to ship and a hassle to move a spa with the extra height, but if a customer wants a much better sound, then use AUDIO speakers. Your ears are designed for sound, not your testicles.

[Chas]

If you can hear the sound of music coming from the water, that is a hell of a lot of energy going into the water.

I don't know exactly what unit of measure a "hell" is, but there is a little button on the spa and one on the remote control with which the consumer can turn the volume up and down. I guess that a teenager might put in some realy heavy tunes and crank it wide open, but most thinking people use the same technique with the HS system that they do with the external speakers: they set it at a comfortable level.

It also is $1800 and it does not sound very good.

I might have agreed, but they have added some external speakers which are outdoor rated. Between those and the transducers it sounds very good. Keep in mind that both your statement and mine are somewhat subjective, just as some folks here offered their take on your musical selections so kindly posted on a spa forum recently.

There are two transducers in the water.

No, they are in the cabinet, attached to the back of the spa shell. This is not really up for debate, and I would suggest that you don't start repeating this until you believe it, as you appear to have done with some other facts regarding HS tubs.

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN PUTTING SOMETHING IN A PRODUCT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION THAT HAS NOT BEEN TESTED.

That sounds great, of course, but I would note that your tubs are not tested by ETL, UL, or any other Nationally Recognized Testing Lab, so your DAIT system, your plumbing mods, your larger pumps, your control system mods, and most importantly your suction system seems to indicate that the truth is not exactly in line with your statement in this regard. Sorry, I'm sure you will correct us with verifiable facts if they are available, right?

The whole concept is that Hot Spring is to cheap to put in speakers

This system is far more expensive to design, build and install. It is unique. I think it sounds great now that they have added two more channels and the external speakers. Those speakers, btw, can be mounted near the spa to expand the listening experience IN the tub, or put in another part of the yard for use with or without the pleasure of sitting in the tub. The power amp is huge, with large heat-sink areas, is all digital, powers up and down automatically as needed, has built-in overload protection, can control the EQ and volume settings of the internal transducers and the external speakers independently, and was not taken from some other industry or some other use - it is designed for this specific task. It works well. Sorry, but your point is not well taken. And it should be, "Too cheap," btw.

and other companies have pop up speakers, and they have molded in speakers. We have both.

Good for you, Jim. You just admitted that you have once again taken a mediocre approach which follows the trend in the industry. That's fine, and I don't doubt that your system sounds fine. But an industry leader is just that: a leader. They don't usually 'follow the pack' and do the very same as everyone else and call it good.

However, if you want, you could choose a Caldera tub. Those have pop-up speakers and a sub-woofer in the cabinet. They kick. But by being able to be retracted they stay dryer, and they do not add to the hassles with the covers nor add expense to shipping. Internesting how those are usually our less-expensive models. Not in all markets or all dealers - but most.

It is a hassle to ship and a hassle to move a spa with the extra height,

I guess it was bound to happen: I agree. Those speaker horns on the corners of spas also reduce the insulation factor or the cover since most of the cover makers simply put a layer of vinyl over the raise areas. How a plastic tub survives in icy conditions with the corners frozen and the rest of the tub hot is beyond me, but I guess that's the gamble your customers are willing to take.

but if a customer wants a much better sound, then use AUDIO speakers.

Again, I agree. This IS a momentous day, isn't it!? The HS system USES speakers: the external ones now included as part of the system. They are good by themselves, but if somebody wants to substitutue an even better speaker, they can. Or if they want to tie into existing speakers, such as rock speakers or larger buried systems, it is accomodated. So yes, if you want a great-sounding system, completely incorporated into the spa, with only the exterior speakers to make simple connections to, BUT you want a system which is completely tested and approved for safety by ETL as part of the spa, this is a good way to go, and thanks for saying so Jim.

Your ears are designed for sound, not your testicles.

My testicles have a tendency to let me know if they are being overstressed. That is true for most men, Jim, but you may have to take my word for it. I have been in Spaudio and Spaudio II equipped spas, and there was no pain in any area of my body, including my rather sensitive ears. I have enough sense to keep the volume levels at a safe setting, and I doubt ETL would have approved this system if there was a possibility of sterilizing people.

I'm sure that bothers you, but it is true: this system and every other part of the HotSpring Porable Spa is ETL listed and certified. You can go to the ETL site and veriry this. Your tubs, are not.

[Trigger]

That's an excellent post Chas. Thanks for taking the time to answer some disinformation and explain it.

If anyone has concerns about "tranducers" and health, please don't listen to James Arujuna. Simply take a moment and research it your self. Google is loaded with information.

Jim, you might also take some advice and read up on tranducers, sonagraphy, sound and human health. Just a suggestion....so that you don't sound like a donkey when you spout your random brain synapsis's.

[Dr. Spa]

My testicles have a tendency to let me know if they are being overstressed. That is true for most men, Jim, but you may have to take my word for it.

ROTFLMMFAO

STOP IT! I'm already on my third keyboard this month due to shorting it out from spitting up coffee all over it.

[Chas]

ROTFLMMFAO

STOP IT! I'm already on my third keyboard this month due to shorting it out from spitting up coffee all over it.

Man I wish they hadn't banned the posting of dynamic links. Cut and paste this URL, taking out the spaces and get yourself a coffee-proof keyboard.

http://w w w.man-machine. c o m /keybrd1.htm

[Dr. Spa]

Though they look nice, at 10 times the cost of what I got, I think I'll pass........though, maybe I could set up a web surfing kiosk spa side.

Man I wish they hadn't banned the posting of dynamic links. Cut and paste this URL, taking out the spaces and get yourself a coffee-proof keyboard.

http://w w w.man-machine. c o m /keybrd1.htm

[Roger]

Once again I am going to say this.....Game, Set and Match Chas.

Gosh another beating for Jimbo, seems I have seen hundreds of them.....oh wait I forgot im blind right Jim?

[Jim_The_Jim]

Chas; Why don't you take all of that mental energy and use it on something better.

The transduces put sound waves directly in the water. That is what I mean they do not put sound in the air until it passes through the water. It is a way to put sound in a spa without using logical means. Like speakers. Have you ever heard of speakers.