Poor Glue Joints

[Jamicor]

Just got off the phone with a representative at American Sales, the store we purchased our Hot Springs Landmark Spa. Our spa is a 2000. We now have a second leak and according to Tom at American Sales, this was an Industry wide problem. Apparently, around that time that my spa was being manufactured, all manufacturers of spas were ordered to change the glue used to connect the joints. Several years later, they have realized that the glue was substandard and would not hold the joints in place. Consequently, leaks. Did the manufacturers or distributors let the customers know of this problem? - NO!!!. Are they helping offset the cost of repairs or replacing defective spas? NO!!!. They are just letting customers repair them at $100 or more an hour at a total cost of upwords $1,500-$2,000 with no guarantees that more leaks won't occur. Of course, they offer to give you, maybe $1,000 for a trade-in. I have been trying to find out if anybody has filed a class action lawsuit for defective spas. From what I have read, I am not the only one with this problem. I am so ready to go to the newspapers, TV or somebody as I feel so helpless. We purchased a lemon and there was no recall. Just, oh well, let's see if any body makes a fuss. I am ready to make a fuss - anybody else? If anybody knows of a website regarding any action taken or more info on this, please included it in a reply. Thanks.

[Dnepr Dave]

I'm a spa owner, not a manufacturer, but I know something about plastic piping. Most plastic piping is PVC, CPVC and ABS. Glue is not used to join these material. They are fused together with a solvent specific to each material. There have been no changes to the formulation of these solvents since they were developed years ago.

The vibration from years of use can cause an inexpertly joined pipe to leak, eventually. But I can't imagine it is an industry wide problem.

Dave

[Chris H]

So you have an 8 year old spa that has a leak. If your 8 year old car needed to be fixed at $100 bucks an hour, would there still be a complaint?

I think you need to look into the context of your problem. You didn’t spend 1 cent on fixing any problem with the spa for 5 years. Now that it is almost 4 years out of warranty there is a complaint.

[Dr. Spa]

Glue is not used to join these material. They are fused together with a solvent specific to each material.

Typically the "solvent" is called glue.

There have been no changes to the formulation of these solvents since they were developed years ago.

Not true. In accordance with new EPA laws on VOC's the formulation of all PVC glues was changed around the time of these problems.

The problem is not with the spa manufacturers, but with the PVC glue companies, and the products THEY produced and sold, to not only spa manufacturers, but throughout the rest of the country as well.

I think on an 8 year old product, with a warranty less that that, you'd have a very hard time winning any kind of suit. Couldn't hurt to talk to a lawyer though...as long as the initial consultation is free :-)

[Jamicor]

Glue is not used to join these material. They are fused together with a solvent specific to each material.

Typically the "solvent" is called glue.

There have been no changes to the formulation of these solvents since they were developed years ago.

Not true. In accordance with new EPA laws on VOC's the formulation of all PVC glues was changed around the time of these problems.

The problem is not with the spa manufacturers, but with the PVC glue companies, and the products THEY produced and sold, to not only spa manufacturers, but throughout the rest of the country as well.

I think on an 8 year old product, with a warranty less that that, you'd have a very hard time winning any kind of suit. Couldn't hurt to talk to a lawyer though...as long as the initial consultation is free :-)

To Chris, we did spend cash on several problems that were after warranty. I never said we didn't. Also, I don't know any car repair place that charges $100/hour because there is a lot of competition out there - not as much in the spa business so they can dictate that outragous price. Finally, I was told by the guy that sold me the spa that there was a glue issue, I didn't make it up. Now why would he tell me that as it sure as hell is not going to make them look good. And people wonder why we buy products overseas - it's because we don't back up our products here. They found out several years later that the solvent/glue, what ever, was not good and they didn't do a thing about it. We took excellent care of our spa so things like this don't happen. We did nothing wrong except buy a lemon. If a car is built with a bad hose, it's up to the car manufacturer to replace it, then go after the manufacturer of the hose. Not let the customers pay for it. Like I said, maybe if more American manufacturers did that, I would buy more American.

[Dnepr Dave]

Calling solvent cement "Glue" is incorrect. Just because many people call it that, doesn't make it right.

I can't find any references to an EPA mandated change in the formulation of PVC solvent cements. There are Low VOC solvent cements available, but 60% MEK PVC cement is what is most commonly seen and used. If you can point me to the specific law, I'd be grateful.

Dave

[Dr. Spa]

$100 isn't really that bad. Around here, that's about the going rate for a lot of car repair shops...Now, if you're wiling to bring your spa into the spa dealer to have it repaired, I have NO doubt that will be willing to charge you a lot lower hourly rate...but if you want them to spend THEIR time, and THEIR vehicle expenses coming out to your home to fix your spa...expect to pay for it :-)

[Jamicor]

$100 isn't really that bad. Around here, that's about the going rate for a lot of car repair shops...Now, if you're wiling to bring your spa into the spa dealer to have it repaired, I have NO doubt that will be willing to charge you a lot lower hourly rate...but if you want them to spend THEIR time, and THEIR vehicle expenses coming out to your home to fix your spa...expect to pay for it :-)

San Francisco, enough said there. Everything out there is 10 times as expensive. And the $100/hour did not cover travel - that's an addition $69.00 - silly me - forgot that part. It's all about the competition. I'm just glad we dont' have it below ground or under a deck - then we would really be f....ed. I guess I'm just crazy in thinking that when I pay that much for a product and take good care if it, I expect the thing to be made well and work or I expect the distributor/manufacturer to stand behind it if the fault is theres. Better yet, here's a direct quote from Hot Springs latest brochure: "Nobody Backs you Better. Relax in the knowledge that you bought the best spa made. Hot Springs are made by Watkins Manufacturing, a company known for highest ethics and integrity". I think it should read "Nobody Stabs you in the Back Better". Ethics and integrity - that's a laugh.

[Chris H]

What are you expecting from a manufacturer when the spa is at least 3 years out of warranty? The problems that you have described all occurred after the warranty period. If it was in the warranty period, I am sure Hotspring would be fixing your spa at no cost to you.

I’m just a little confused how you can expect the manufacturer to be responsible to fix something for free when it is clearly out of warranty. I can understand a 3 or 4 month leeway, but a 3 or 4 year leeway come on. That is just unreasonable.

[Jamicor]

What are you expecting from a manufacturer when the spa is at least 3 years out of warranty? The problems that you have described all occurred after the warranty period. If it was in the warranty period, I am sure Hotspring would be fixing your spa at no cost to you.

I’m just a little confused how you can expect the manufacturer to be responsible to fix something for free when it is clearly out of warranty. I can understand a 3 or 4 month leeway, but a 3 or 4 year leeway come on. That is just unreasonable.

It's basically a recall. For instance, our Chevy Suburban, 10 years old, recently had a recall on one of the outside rear view mirrors. It was discovered that it was faulty and could cause a problem. The car was out of warranty, but we were to bring it in for a replacement mirror - at their expense. It was their part, their boo boo so thay absorbed the cost - even when the car was past its warranty. It's what is called "Good Business" if you want customers to come back. According to American Sales, Watkins new their solvent/glue was faulty after several leaking instances occured out of warranty, yet they did nothing. I can understand not recalling all, but if you find a customer has bad joints and it was because you manufactured it poorly or purchased adhesive that was bad, you should be held liable. They do it with kids playpens, cribs, toys, etc. Would you have faith in Hot Springs to buy another product from them? I don't.

[Dr. Spa]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Your Suburban was recalled for what was considered a safety issue, probably negotiated and/or mandated by the DOT (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "good business"). Children's "toys" are also recalled for safety concerns, also negotiated/mandated by a government safety agency. I can assure you, if the problem with your spa was a life threatening, or safety issue, there would be a recall

Also, what ever According to American Sales told you, is not necessarily anything close to the truth. American Sales is NOT Watkins.

[ALASKA RECREATIONAL]

Im from ALASKA and if you get these solvent below 20 degress then they don't work anymore.

The plumbers that did the plastic work at our fishing lodge used a solvent (blue) that had been frozen and we were replacing joints all summer long because of it..

so if your in a northern state that could have caused your problems...

[Jamicor]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Your Suburban was recalled for what was considered a safety issue, probably negotiated and/or mandated by the DOT (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "good business"). Children's "toys" are also recalled for safety concerns, also negotiated/mandated by a government safety agency. I can assure you, if the problem with your spa was a life threatening, or safety issue, there would be a recall

Also, what ever According to American Sales told you, is not necessarily anything close to the truth. American Sales is NOT Watkins.

Dr. Spa, you and I are never going to agree. My idea of QA/QC and yours are different. In my Shangra La world, if a company makes a mistake, they should rectify it at their cost. Seems like a simple concept. Like I said, this has been much of America's problem - no pride in their work and no backup with their QA/QC. No wonder we are getting our butts kicked by other countries. Gotta wait until the thing blows up, then "oops, we better fix that, well maybe if we get caught".

Also, I wasn't just baseing it on the Sales Staff. Their own service man I paid for to come and try to figure out my problem told me this was an issue a few years back. Their head service guy spent several months at one point fixing tub after tub with bad joints. I appreciated his honesty. He had nothing to gain by telling me that, in fact just the opposite. American Sales never even mentioned Watkins, so I consider them just as much to blame. A few other people on various web sites have also confirmed the glue joint issue. It's there - nobody wants to do anything about it. Haven't figured out what I'm going to do. I consider it a waste of $ to fix it, probably only to have it happen again. Would I buy another one - right now NO. Maybe my mind will change later.

Finally on the subject - to anybody out there that is considering Hot Springs, two things: Their panels on the sides are extremely hard to remove to fix this problem. The sides are not screwed in like Artesian models, they are glued and nailed, so they are equally not easy to replace. Second, I would never recommend putting a hot tub below a deck or in the ground. You might as well at least triple the expense of a service call visit to access anything. Mine is neither and I thank god of that.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Finally on the subject - to anybody out there that is considering Hot Springs, two things: Their panels on the sides are extremely hard to remove to fix this problem. The sides are not screwed in like Artesian models, they are glued and nailed, so they are equally not easy to replace. Second, I would never recommend putting a hot tub below a deck or in the ground. You might as well at least triple the expense of a service call visit to access anything. Mine is neither and I thank god of that.

The panels back in 2000 were not removable. That changed a couple years after but your spa is 8 years old so you will have to remove one board at a time. Yup, putting a spa in a deck is great unless you have a real service issue but I think everyone knows that's a chance you take. Certainly there have been older spas from that vintage that have been at issues due to the glue but I don't think Hot Springs stands out on this other than the fact they made a lot of spas. I know it sucks when it’s your spa that fails out of warranty so I understand that. As far as the service guy making it sound like it’s an everyday occurrence that’s understandable, when you're in service (spas, cars, whatever) you can get the feeling the sky is falling because all you ever deal with are the problem spas.

[ALASKA RECREATIONAL]

you can get the feeling the sky is falling because all you ever deal with are the problem spas..

WELL SAID... And I agree...

[Dan.The.Spa.Man]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Your Suburban was recalled for what was considered a safety issue, probably negotiated and/or mandated by the DOT (ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "good business"). Children's "toys" are also recalled for safety concerns, also negotiated/mandated by a government safety agency. I can assure you, if the problem with your spa was a life threatening, or safety issue, there would be a recall

Also, what ever According to American Sales told you, is not necessarily anything close to the truth. American Sales is NOT Watkins.

Well said, I was going to post this exact same thing.

On another note:

I'm not going to look for the legislation but there was a change made to the PVC solvents due to the VOC's that they contain back in 2000 or 2001. Many calls of leaking spas that I get are indeed from 2001 and are not limited to Watkins.

I have taken back 3 'Spa Depot' brand spas this year (to dispose of) after selling new tubs to these customers. I usually try to refurbish and sell tubs like this, but after filling them there were multiple glue joint leaks in all of them. I'm talking about 20 -30 leaks in each. All of them were from 2001.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I also stated in another thread, we used to work for Waters Edge, a mnaufacturer, they also had the same issue and had to change glues. What we have seen in these tubs is that once it starts, it keeps going, you will fix a bunch of leaks, a week later there is a bunch more in new spots. We prewarn our customers of this. Good thing about waters Edge, dead air space, much easier to find and fix the leaks making the hourly labor less costly.

We have also seen this issue in many hot springs and several other brands of tubs, all in this vintage, 1998-2001.

[Jamicor]

I also stated in another thread, we used to work for Waters Edge, a mnaufacturer, they also had the same issue and had to change glues. What we have seen in these tubs is that once it starts, it keeps going, you will fix a bunch of leaks, a week later there is a bunch more in new spots. We prewarn our customers of this. Good thing about waters Edge, dead air space, much easier to find and fix the leaks making the hourly labor less costly.

We have also seen this issue in many hot springs and several other brands of tubs, all in this vintage, 1998-2001.

Thanks Dan and Hillbilly. Appreciate the backup. Of course when your a service guy your going to have that feeling of the sky falling, but when you see the same issue over and over again, a little light goes off in your head and you make the connection. I know Hot Springs isn't the only model. From what the rep at American Sales said, it was an industry wide change and every manufacturer that used that glue suffered. Obviously my issue is not with them, it's with American Sales and Watkins.

Looks like we are going to probably empty it and leave it for the season. Getting too late to fix it and fill it. Still plan on fighting the powers that be on this. Don't feel it's right and don't have faith in the industry to go buy another one. Don't want to fix it because as you guys said, fix one, it creates too much pressure on another and your right back to square one. Don't want to make idle threats, but during these times you would think companies would be trying to please the customer rather than piss them off resulting in spreading bad reports about them. That might be my last resort and I'm definitely willing to do it and I have a lot of resources available to do just that. Nothing worse than word of mouth.

[Jake the dog man]

These would be problems on a new spa, but 8 years old is well worn. A company can not stay in business by fixing all their tubs 8 years after to make someone happy. I wish they could, but 8 years is really pushing it. I might hope for some concession from the dealer you bought it from, but even that is pushing it. Would a car dealer be expected to replace hoses 8 years after a purchase? What about install an option 8 years later? It might be nice as a customer, but it is hardly practical as a dealer or especially a manufacturer.

Just my 2 cents but I’d be out shopping for a new tub rather then trying to get someone to repair an 8 year old one. Even if it gets repaired right, you still have an 8 year old tub.

Products get improved each model year for a reason, not just window dressing. Most products fade in 8 years.

Good Luck & let us know.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I wish they could, but 8 years is really pushing it. I might hope for some concession from the dealer you bought it from, but even that is pushing it.

The warrantry for leaks is 5 years so I'd say 5 years & 1 month is pushing it, 5 & 1/2 years is a bummer, 8 years is unfortunate.

My fuel pump went out last month on my car, only 1,550 miles past the warranty. It killed me and I wanted to say "...but its only a little over, isn't there something you can do?". I swalled hard and accepted my fate though it will always kill me that it was sooooo close!!!

[Roger]

I wish they could, but 8 years is really pushing it. I might hope for some concession from the dealer you bought it from, but even that is pushing it.

The warrantry for leaks is 5 years so I'd say 5 years & 1 month is pushing it, 5 & 1/2 years is a bummer, 8 years is unfortunate.

My fuel pump went out last month on my car, only 1,550 miles past the warranty. It killed me and I wanted to say "...but its only a little over, isn't there something you can do?". I swalled hard and accepted my fate though it will always kill me that it was sooooo close!!!

Transmission went out 5 thousand after the warranty on my x wifes pontiac bonnivile and the dealer got me a new transmission from GM for nothing. Just goes to show you sometimes a good dealer will go the extra mile to help a customer. I asked him if he had a better Pontiac (higher end) because thats the one we wanted and we though the Bonnivile was at the top but we were wrong. But I also said I was going to go to a different dealer.

[Jamicor]

I wish they could, but 8 years is really pushing it. I might hope for some concession from the dealer you bought it from, but even that is pushing it.

The warrantry for leaks is 5 years so I'd say 5 years & 1 month is pushing it, 5 & 1/2 years is a bummer, 8 years is unfortunate.

My fuel pump went out last month on my car, only 1,550 miles past the warranty. It killed me and I wanted to say "...but its only a little over, isn't there something you can do?". I swalled hard and accepted my fate though it will always kill me that it was sooooo close!!!

I'm really not sure what I have to say to get the point across that I agree a product can go bad after time - IF IT'S PUT TOGETHER PROPERLY! Yes normal wear and tear, expected, of course. But when the dealer actually ADMITS that they manufactured it POORLY with bad products and did not fix it - you would still be ok with this? If you found out your car, out of warranty, was built with defective hoses and the only way to get to them was to lift the engine out at your expense for parts and labor, you would be ok with this? Sorry I don't buy it and never will agree with it. If you make it right - no problem. But if you use a defective piece or adhesive or electronic or whatever, it's the manufacturers fault and they should rectify it. The kicker is they have the audacity to say in their brochure "Nobody Backs You Better". "...Integrity and ethics..." "Quality you can count on" What a crock! I believe the whole idea is based on two possible scenarios: Let the customer just keep shelling out $1500 each time to fix each joint that then causes the others to break eventually, or Tell you just one repair may not take care of it, better buy a new one. Wow, what do they think, I have a big lollypop on my back?

Company's must love you as a customer because you naively accept their incompetance and are even willing to pay for it. Only in America. That is probably why GM is hat in hand looking for handdouts. I have purchased many products in my lifetime, for example - new hot water heaters. Old one was 10 years old - its time was up. Didn't go because of bad parts, just went because it was its time. When you see bad workmanship, you know it and you should not just accept it. When you purchase something that is upwards of $8,000, you expect good workmanship and it should last, if taken care of, a long time, not 2-3 years after the warranty is out. If you want to stay in business, back up your product, ADMIT YOUR mistakes, fix them at no cost to customer, and move on. I would be a loyal customer to a company that practiced that philosophy versus the "sorry, your on your own" policy. Like I said, seems like a simple concept.

[Roger]

I'm really not sure what I have to say to get the point across that I agree a product can go bad after time - IF IT'S PUT TOGETHER PROPERLY! Yes normal wear and tear, expected, of course. But when the dealer actually ADMITS that they manufactured it POORLY with bad products and did not fix it - you would still be ok with this? If you found out your car, out of warranty, was built with defective hoses and the only way to get to them was to lift the engine out at your expense for parts and labor, you would be ok with this? Sorry I don't buy it and never will agree with it. If you make it right - no problem. But if you use a defective piece or adhesive or electronic or whatever, it's the manufacturers fault and they should rectify it. The kicker is they have the audacity to say in their brochure "Nobody Backs You Better". "...Integrity and ethics..." "Quality you can count on" What a crock! I believe the whole idea is based on two possible scenarios: Let the customer just keep shelling out $1500 each time to fix each joint that then causes the others to break eventually, or Tell you just one repair may not take care of it, better buy a new one. Wow, what do they think, I have a big lollypop on my back?

Company's must love you as a customer because you naively accept their incompetance and are even willing to pay for it. Only in America. That is probably why GM is hat in hand looking for handdouts. I have purchased many products in my lifetime, for example - new hot water heaters. Old one was 10 years old - its time was up. Didn't go because of bad parts, just went because it was its time. When you see bad workmanship, you know it and you should not just accept it. When you purchase something that is upwards of $8,000, you expect good workmanship and it should last, if taken care of, a long time, not 2-3 years after the warranty is out. If you want to stay in business, back up your product, ADMIT YOUR mistakes, fix them at no cost to customer, and move on. I would be a loyal customer to a company that practiced that philosophy versus the "sorry, your on your own" policy. Like I said, seems like a simple concept.

Maybe there is something in your water that caused the problem? It didn't show up on your test strip because you didn't test for it. It's difficult for a manufacturer to put more warranty into something so easiely ruined by the consumer (i'm not saying you did). I wish this world worked the way you describe but I dout many manufacturers would be profitable if it did. Every manufacturer relies on a certain amount of complacancy to remain profitable.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

I agree with the warranty aspect, Its past the warranty, lets hope that when the glue got changed it fixed the problem and we wont see it on newer tubs.

[Jake the dog man]

I don’t want to beat a dead horse here but… it all comes down to the warranty is done. We are not talking a day, a week, a month. It is 3 years out of warranty. To keep with the car analogy, we are not talking about a Pontiac’s transmission a few weeks out of warranty, we are talking years. You may find someone who would a year or so out, but they will be few & far between. A dealer can not afford to replace all problems that far out. Earlier models are rarely as good as current ones.

You may have some better luck hounding the manufacturer, but even that will be hard being 8 years. You would have had a better shot if this had happen 2 or 3 years out.

Good Luck & let us know.