Full Foamed Or Insulated Panels? Metal Frame Important?

[ChicagoMike]

I want to make my purchase this week. In the Chicago area there are many dealers to choose from, all which seem to carry 3 brands. Of course I stopped by Costco too. Some of the brands we like are Coleman, Hot Springs and Sundance. The Coleman has a metal frame and the sides have a foam panels with foil on them. The Hot Springs and Sundance have the foam sprayed all over the inside. It gets really cold here in the winter, like 0F for weeks at a time and dips to -10F or worse. Which insulation method is better for my climate?

Also the Coleman has a metal frame and looks to be a good unit. I don't see Coleman mentioned here often so wonder what that indicates. It is about $1,500 cheaper than the comparable Hot Springs ($6,300 vs $7,800).

We have a chain store in the area called The Great Escape that carries Sundance and Jacuuzi. Anybody have experience with them?

Thanks

Mike

[ps558]

I want to make my purchase this week. In the Chicago area there are many dealers to choose from, all which seem to carry 3 brands. Of course I stopped by Costco too. Some of the brands we like are Coleman, Hot Springs and Sundance. The Coleman has a metal frame and the sides have a foam panels with foil on them. The Hot Springs and Sundance have the foam sprayed all over the inside. It gets really cold here in the winter, like 0F for weeks at a time and dips to -10F or worse. Which insulation method is better for my climate?

Also the Coleman has a metal frame and looks to be a good unit. I don't see Coleman mentioned here often so wonder what that indicates. It is about $1,500 cheaper than the comparable Hot Springs ($6,300 vs $7,800).

We have a chain store in the area called The Great Escape that carries Sundance and Jacuuzi. Anybody have experience with them?

Thanks

Mike

I sell Coleman spas and I can tell you the units are sealed tight. Not very much heat escapes them if any at all. the insulation debate will go forever, but I can tell you most full foam spas have to exhaust all the heat the pump motors create to keep them running. Coleman with open space insulation the pump heat is retained in the spa and transfers a little to the water. In the dead of winter here in PA the inside of the spas are warm.

The new Coleman spas are even better than previuos models before 2005. Also Coleman spas for some reason have always been cheaper to buy, but they still are good strong spas. Hotsprings, Sundance, Jacuzzi all make good products too.

Coleman never seems to really push or advertise there product that much. the rest have been around a little longer and most are full foam.

Coleman has a limited lifetime warranty on the frame, 56 frame pumps(cheaper to operate) 5 year warranty on pumps,heater,glue joints,control system, plumbing, and jets not stainless. Two year on outside panel which are a 1/4 think full colored no vaneer. 10 year on the shell.

[Esquire]

ChicagoMike... I'm in the Chicago area too and bought my Sundance Cameo from The Great Escape (Algonquin store). I couldn't be happier with the purchase. My experience at the store and with my sales person has been nothing less than enjoyable. I did a lot of research and ultimately settled on the Sundance because of its features, seating comfort, quite operation, and reputation for quality. I was told Jacuzzi owns Sundance, and both brand hot tubs are manufactured in the same facility. Sundance supposedly is a step up from the Jacuzzi in that it incorporates many features as standard that are optional on Jacuzzi (though I honestly liked the look of the Jacuzzi tubs more with their higher back). I can't speak to the insulation, as I just got the tub operating about three weeks ago. I will say that delivery and set up with this company was flawless, and I highly recommend the store. My sales person knows me by name and was a huge help (before and after the sale) getting my tub set up and water balanced. It's so hard to tell whether the price was good, but I will say I started the purchase back in March with a hold deposit and I see the prices have increased. I supposedly got 2007 pricing on a 2008 model.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

I wouldn't give any thought to the frame wood vs steel. Fine either way. I would definitely go with the Hot Spring or Sundance for energy efficiency though, hands down IMO.

[IL Parrothead]

Mike,

I'm also in the Chicago area. As ps558 stated, the insulation debate will go on forever. I will tell you that in most cases, full foam spas are a better bet to be more energy efficient. The reason I say that is that a lot of manufacturers don't do the thermopane technique properly. It's a less expensive way to make a spa (versus full foam), but there are some manufacturers that I hear do non-full foam insulation well. Arctic is one that's always mentioned. I've heard Coleman praised more than slammed, but I too haven't read a lot about them.

I also went to The Great Escape and wet tested Jacuzzi, Sundance & CalSpa. I personally liked Jacuzzi best there and Sundance second. I personally wasn't at all impressed with the therapy on the CalSpa (just my opinion).

I went to American Sales and wet tested Hot Spring and Artesian -- liked them both, with the edge going to HS.

Tested Caldera, D1 & Marquis as well.

The reason I tested those is because they were the spas that consistently got the most praise on this and other forums.

I would have tested Arctic, but -- as I said earlier -- I couldn't find a dealer at that time.

Other than recommending you stay away from the Costco tubs, you'd do fine with any of the others you're looking at. See which ones feel best for your body.

Happy hunting!

[Wet in ChiTown]

MIke, if you want to wet-test a Arctic there is a Arctic dealer in Libertyville. I currently have a Summit LE on order. Arctic is a bit more than other brands, but I picked them because they seems that they would give me the best customer support from the ones in my area, I really liked the Summit, they are close to my house and they are family owned (not a chain store, I would rather give my money to a family store than a corporate CEO). Have fun researching. Kepp us up to date on your progress.

I am currently at the electric and site prep phase.

The electrician is coming out this morning to give me a estimate, and I have someone coming out to do the site prep early Aug. They will be digging the grass up and laying down pea-gravel.

[Hillbilly Hot Tub]

It's a less expensive way to make a spa (versus full foam)

If done properly with high quality thermo pane (2 Inch) and done on floor and sides, it is not a less exspensive way to make the spa.

[Tom]

It's a less expensive way to make a spa (versus full foam)

If done properly with high quality thermo pane (2 Inch) and done on floor and sides, it is not a less exspensive way to make the spa.

For the record, the Arctic spec is 3" of PU foam on sides and floor.

[IL Parrothead]

It's a less expensive way to make a spa (versus full foam)

If done properly with high quality thermo pane (2 Inch) and done on floor and sides, it is not a less exspensive way to make the spa.

For the record, the Arctic spec is 3" of PU foam on sides and floor.

And, if you'll look at what I said "a lot of manufacturers don't do the thermopane properly. It's a less expensive way to make a spa....." and then "...there are some manufacturers that I hear do non-full foam insulation well. Arctic is one that is always mentioned."

The point I thought I was clearly making is that some tubs claim to be thermopane, slap in some light wrap behind the panels, call it a day, and save a lot of money in the process while making an inefficient tub. We've seen it in dozens of posts from people that have bought many of the big box store tubs and then had to further add insulation themselves.

[Roger]

I want to make my purchase this week. In the Chicago area there are many dealers to choose from, all which seem to carry 3 brands. Of course I stopped by Costco too. Some of the brands we like are Coleman, Hot Springs and Sundance. The Coleman has a metal frame and the sides have a foam panels with foil on them. The Hot Springs and Sundance have the foam sprayed all over the inside. It gets really cold here in the winter, like 0F for weeks at a time and dips to -10F or worse. Which insulation method is better for my climate?

Also the Coleman has a metal frame and looks to be a good unit. I don't see Coleman mentioned here often so wonder what that indicates. It is about $1,500 cheaper than the comparable Hot Springs ($6,300 vs $7,800).

We have a chain store in the area called The Great Escape that carries Sundance and Jacuuzi. Anybody have experience with them?

Thanks

Mike

The metal Weber grills never seem to last as long as the wood deck you set them on???

[ChicagoMike]

Thanks to all for your informed opinions. I stopped by the Coleman Dealer again today. He has a 480 on the floor or can order a new one or the next size down, 470. While talking about insulation types, he mentioned that in case of a power or equipment failure in the Winter, the insulated panel type would retain heat all around the pumps and hoses. He said the fully foamed models would keep the water warm, but some hoses and the heater and pumps are not insulated and would freeze up soon. Make any sense?

Back to the models the 480 on the floor includes Ozonator (an option that most makes throw in) and the After hours light kit. He wants $6,900 versus $7,500 if we order it. The ordered one has 52 jets versus 43 and a few other yearly changes that I don't recall. I do worry about a showroom floor model. Who knows the real story. What if it was a return or something? Also I am not sure how much a tub should moved around, turn on it side, pushed onto a truck, then off, etc.. Am I being silly to feel better about a brand spankin' new one? We also talked about a 470 for $7,100 new. It is 88" X 88" versus 92" X 92" for the 480. All these prices are delivered, steps, chemicals, plus tax.

[hot_water]

Roger, If the wood deck got as hot as the Weber grill, which do you think would last longer?

As for wood v. metal, I wouldn't think it's much of a point. Wood rots, but galvanized steel rusts. Either will probably outlast your spa. Slow leaks that go unnoticed will be hard on either.

I am not a fan of full foam, primarily because of serviceability. Every plumbing joint and penetration of the shell is a potential leak. In my case, I'm not lucky - if it can leak, it will (eventually). Some here will say that leaks are a non-issue, but the service people I talked to before I bought said that they do have to fix leaks in foamed tubs and it is a pain. Open construction can work, it's easy to add insulation if you need to and IMO much easier to repair if you have problems. If you do add insulation to an open cabinet, make sure you don't cause the pumps or electronics to run too hot. Heat is the enemy of reliability for those parts.

Even though I'm not a fan of foam, the freezing argument seems like a pure sales ploy to me.

[ps558]

Thanks to all for your informed opinions. I stopped by the Coleman Dealer again today. He has a 480 on the floor or can order a new one or the next size down, 470. While talking about insulation types, he mentioned that in case of a power or equipment failure in the Winter, the insulated panel type would retain heat all around the pumps and hoses. He said the fully foamed models would keep the water warm, but some hoses and the heater and pumps are not insulated and would freeze up soon. Make any sense?

Back to the models the 480 on the floor includes Ozonator (an option that most makes throw in) and the After hours light kit. He wants $6,900 versus $7,500 if we order it. The ordered one has 52 jets versus 43 and a few other yearly changes that I don't recall. I do worry about a showroom floor model. Who knows the real story. What if it was a return or something? Also I am not sure how much a tub should moved around, turn on it side, pushed onto a truck, then off, etc.. Am I being silly to feel better about a brand spankin' new one? We also talked about a 470 for $7,100 new. It is 88" X 88" versus 92" X 92" for the 480. All these prices are delivered, steps, chemicals, plus tax.

It is true in a power outage the heat in spa in retained will take longer to freeze. I don't know if a full foam spa will freeze faster or not, But my logic of thinking would be yes since the only heat is in the tub, not the cabinet.

Another feature with Thermopane insulation is if the spa dies in winter but you have electric. You can put a 300 halogen drop light in the cabinet to keep the pipes from freezing solid. The water will still get a crust but not freeze. I have done for people and it works.

Both them prices are good prices to me. Get the spa you want though. Coleman has a non prorated warranty, which no matter how long that spa sit in the store you still get the full warranty. If they move the spa properly it should be ok no matter how many times they move it. Ask them to remove to panels oppisite of each other because you want to see how it made, then you can inspect the frame for yourself

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Another feature with Thermopane insulation is if the spa dies in winter but you have electric. You can put a 300 halogen drop light in the cabinet to keep the pipes from freezing solid. The water will still get a crust but not freeze. I have done for people and it works.

That is what most any spa professionaly would advise but why do you say "Another feature with Thermopane insulation"?

That is the recommended procedure (and works well) for any type of spa regardless of whether the spa is a thermopane type or whether its a fully foam insulated type.

[Roger]

Thanks to all for your informed opinions. I stopped by the Coleman Dealer again today. He has a 480 on the floor or can order a new one or the next size down, 470. While talking about insulation types, he mentioned that in case of a power or equipment failure in the Winter, the insulated panel type would retain heat all around the pumps and hoses. He said the fully foamed models would keep the water warm, but some hoses and the heater and pumps are not insulated and would freeze up soon. Make any sense?

Neither FF or TP will have an advantage of any use over the other during winter. They will both have to be repaired ASAP to prevent freeze up. A trouble light or heat source placed in the equipment area of either will prolong the freeze up but a repair or drain will have to be facilitated.

Thats call Coleman dealer spin.

[Roger]

Roger, If the wood deck got as hot as the Weber grill, which do you think would last longer?

As for wood v. metal, I wouldn't think it's much of a point. Wood rots, but galvanized steel rusts. Either will probably outlast your spa. Slow leaks that go unnoticed will be hard on either.

If the BBQ grill got walked on and stuff rolled across it as much as the deck, plus rain and snow and shovels and afternoon sunlight all day every day which do you think would last longer??

I was trying to say the same thing as you. It is nothing more than a sales pitch for a metal frame that is not better than wood.

[peter175]

Mike,

I'm also in the Chicago area. As ps558 stated, the insulation debate will go on forever. I will tell you that in most cases, full foam spas are a better bet to be more energy efficient. The reason I say that is that a lot of manufacturers don't do the thermopane technique properly. It's a less expensive way to make a spa (versus full foam), but there are some manufacturers that I hear do non-full foam insulation well. Arctic is one that's always mentioned. I've heard Coleman praised more than slammed, but I too haven't read a lot about them.

I also went to The Great Escape and wet tested Jacuzzi, Sundance & CalSpa. I personally liked Jacuzzi best there and Sundance second. I personally wasn't at all impressed with the therapy on the CalSpa (just my opinion).

I went to American Sales and wet tested Hot Spring and Artesian -- liked them both, with the edge going to HS.

Tested Caldera, D1 & Marquis as well.

The reason I tested those is because they were the spas that consistently got the most praise on this and other forums.

I would have tested Arctic, but -- as I said earlier -- I couldn't find a dealer at that time.

Other than recommending you stay away from the Costco tubs, you'd do fine with any of the others you're looking at. See which ones feel best for your body.

Happy hunting!

Hi,

Just curious why you recommending staying away from Costco tubs: poor service/lack of support or poor product quality? I am considering a spa purchase now, and Costco is (was?) one of my options.

Thanks

Peter

[Roger]

Hi,

Just curious why you recommending staying away from Costco tubs: poor service/lack of support or poor product quality? I am considering a spa purchase now, and Costco is (was?) one of my options.

Thanks

Peter

All of the above

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Hi,

Just curious why you recommending staying away from Costco tubs: poor service/lack of support or poor product quality? I am considering a spa purchase now, and Costco is (was?) one of my options.

Thanks

Peter

I would venture to guess your interest in that spa comes down to a couple things, you trust Costco, the spa seems to have the specs and you like the price. I understand all that but don't be blinded, those are only a few factors to consider, and there are others that make this choice fall short IMO. Quality (what luck you have and how long it lasts is very questionable versus premium well made spas out there), energy efficiency (definitely going to cost you noticeably more to run each month) and service (I hope you're a DIYer) take away the positives IMO. If I'm buying a spa I want value which entails ALL the things mentioned above with price only being a part of it. Go in with your eyes wide open; don't be blinded by a price tag.

[wylekioti]

Hi,

Just curious why you recommending staying away from Costco tubs: poor service/lack of support or poor product quality? I am considering a spa purchase now, and Costco is (was?) one of my options.

Thanks

Peter

I have to say from personal experience, trying the tub with water is so important before you buy! You would not buy a car without taking it for a drive to see how comfortable it is, how much power, how solid it feels, etc. Not sure how you can do this with Costco tubs. I have never seen one set up in the store running for everyone to try out next to the cheese and cracker samples. Considering the work involved in installing a tub anyway, why would you want to have a 800 lb. 8' x 8' x 4' item dropped at your curb? At least to me, if I am going to spend that kind of $$$, I want it delivered to where I need it. Buying from any Big Box Store, they are not there to sell spas, service is not what they offer, you get a product and they make a profit.

I am not a spa dealer. I worked in the automotive industry for years building a reputation for quality personal service where I made a living by helping people when they had problems, doing the best work I could for the fairest price and took pride in that. I am empathetic to spa dealers that employ these morals and work hard to be helpful and would rather put food on their table than save a dollar and not have the support of a professional.

Try before you buy.

[make_shift]

I have a full foamed ht, the problem with that is that I had a leak...the only way to get to that leak, you got it, had to chip all that foam away, and if you need service on your tub for such a problem, sometimes, you get the 'we don't do foam tubs', now, I have since had 3 or 4 more jets break, for various reasons, and virtually all the foam is out of my tub, I have 'vapor barrier' all around the plumbing with a 'drain' at the bottom with insulation all around the openings, and the bottom has 2 4x8 sheets of pressure treat plywood screwed to it, so think of maintenance in your choice.

[Markee]

I have a full foamed ht, the problem with that is that I had a leak...the only way to get to that leak, you got it, had to chip all that foam away, and if you need service on your tub for such a problem, sometimes, you get the 'we don't do foam tubs', now, I have since had 3 or 4 more jets break, for various reasons, and virtually all the foam is out of my tub, I have 'vapor barrier' all around the plumbing with a 'drain' at the bottom with insulation all around the openings, and the bottom has 2 4x8 sheets of pressure treat plywood screwed to it, so think of maintenance in your choice.

A properly built spa with clamped plumbing and quality plastics will rarely have a problem with leaking water. There is a reason why the top 5 spa companies are still using full foam insulation...

[IL Parrothead]

Yeah....makeshift, what brand tub do you have?