First "real" Electric Bill

[Bookedup]

It arrived today. I opened it with much anticipation. Mostly because of the circumstances. Background: My 220V, 425 gallon tub was installed and powered up on Sept 11th. I did receive an electric bill on October 5th but it was estimated. Today i received my first actual bill. I was prepared for the worst (as I have read many horror stories) but was actually pleasently surprised. I figured not only would i get hit for last month (Oct) when it was estimated but also for the additional month. My actual bill (Through Nov 2nd) was $107.94. Not bad. I think my rates are inexpensive but i have nothing to compare to. My bill says "Price to compare is 4.624 cents per KWH". It's saying my average cost for "all" electricity per day is $3.60. I live in south western Pa and it's been relatively mild lately (except for the last couple days so I know the useage will go up once the outside temperature goes down. I guess I'll wait and see what January's bill will be as next month (December) will be estimated again.

Anyone else live in the general area? How does this compare?

Thanks in advance,

Bookedup

[JohnInSJ]

Wow. You have really cheap electricity, congrats.

Here in Silicon Valley, we pay a tiered rate - this is my October bill:

10/05/2007 - 10/31/2007

Electric Charges $137.50

Baseline Quantity 321.30000 Kwh

Baseline Usage 321.30000 Kwh @ $0.11430

101-130% of Baseline 96.39000 Kwh @ $0.12989

131-200% of Baseline 224.91000 Kwh @ $0.22722

201-300% of Baseline 117.12414 Kwh @ $0.31719

I don't even want to know what tier 4 & 5 are

My average this month was 28.1 Kwh/day, or about 19 cents a Kwh, for a total of $5.20/day.

Yep, we got us that "premium electricity" here in California. On the upside, if they raise the rates any more, it will actually be cheaper to switch to solar power (about $.25 per Kwh). Sun we got plenty of.

Oh, and this is the first month I can actually see my spa power draw. It is using 4.8 Kwh/day, which costs me $0.91/day, or roughly $27/mo in the fall. Not bad.

[Wanna a tub]

What kind of tub do you have?

It arrived today. I opened it with much anticipation. Mostly because of the circumstances. Background: My 220V, 425 gallon tub was installed and powered up on Sept 11th.

[Jetman]

Oh, and this is the first month I can actually see my spa power draw. It is using 4.8 Kwh/day, which costs me $0.91/day, or roughly $27/mo in the fall. Not bad.

Hey John,

How did you manage to break that out????? Would love to figure out what my D1 Serena Bay is costing me to run. Just got it going on Oct 3. Of course we used it 'excessively' the first month, since we got our 'NEW TOY'. We were soaking twice a day, sometimes more on the weekends

Now I am in at least once per day and 2x on sat, sun with the kids hoppin in! They have no time during the week with school and activities!!!

Do you think it is still necessary to run filtration cycle every 12 hours??? I have only been running 1 cycle every 24 hours because of the high usage. Is that even necessary if we are soaking at least once per day..... occaisonally 2x?????

I think usage will be the largest variation in elec bill since juice is getting used when those pumps are running. Am I correct is my assumption??? The good thing is that when I am in every night I only run 1 PUMP. My wife is in every other night .... we run 2 pumps. On the weekends all 3 pumps are running 2x on sat and sun

Question: Should I not even run the filtration cycle , or do I have to run at least 1 per day????

Thanks ,

Paul

[JohnInSJ]

How did you manage to break that out?????

It's still a guesstimate - my utility bill always includes the total Kwh billed for the previous year (when I didn't have the tub) and I've just been comparing the two. Until October, my bill has actually been lower then last year, since we'd also replaced all our ancient single-pane windows with modern double panes and replaced all our lightbulbs with CFs, so we were using net less energy even with the hot tub...

You could probably do it by watching your meter while the sucker is running to get a feel for the actual draw during a minute or two of use, then start crunching numbers....

However you do it, you should be able to calculate your cost per Kwh, and then get an idea of how many Kwh/day your tub is using.

Do you think it is still necessary to run filtration cycle every 12 hours??? I have only been running 1 cycle every 24 hours because of the high usage. Is that even necessary if we are soaking at least once per day..... occaisonally 2x?????

I think usage will be the largest variation in elec bill since juice is getting used when those pumps are running. Am I correct is my assumption??? The good thing is that when I am in every night I only run 1 PUMP. My wife is in every other night .... we run 2 pumps. On the weekends all 3 pumps are running 2x on sat and sun

Question: Should I not even run the filtration cycle , or do I have to run at least 1 per day????

I can't give you any advice on the filtration cycles as my Tiger River has a 24hour circ pump and no filtration cycle, so unless I'm using it mine is just drawing few watts (50ish) plus the heater as needed, until I use it.

10+ years ago when I had a spa with a filter cycle, I just kept backing off on it until the water quality suffered, then increased it a bit from there.

[Bookedup]

Tub is an 07 Cal. I added Roxul insulation.

[Got-soaked]

Bookedup,

Congrats!! You have a well insulated tub and low electric rates to boot. You gotta love it

I'm running some test on my LSX1050 getting ready to take my Master Spa dealer to court. This LSX1050 tub is less the 4 weeks old, the spa dealer already replaced the first tub because I proved to them the tub was an energy pig. The electrical consumption on the replacement tub is just as outrageous as the first. Stay away from thermal “pain” tubs, go full insulation. The owner of Master Spa East sent me an email stating he will no longer honor the warrenty or service the tub that energy consumption isn't a problem he is going to deal with.

Here are my findings:

With the power to the tub on and set at 102 degrees and filter cycle turned off it uses 34 KWH per day

With the power to the tub on and set at 80 degrees and the filter cycle turned off it uses 22 KWH per day

Ambient temperature for the above test ranged from 38 degrees low to 57 degrees as the high. Cover was never removed during the test and note the filter cycle has been turned off)

With the hot tub water at 80 degrees and unplugged for 24 hours and cover (new Sunstar cover 2 lb foam) never removed the tub lost 9 degrees within 24 hours.

Here is the mystery; if the tub dropped 9 degrees in 24 hours you would think the 5.5kw heater would run 2 hours out of 24 to maintain 80 degrees. Why I'm I seeing the kwh usage at 22 and not at 13kwh? I'm thinking the heater is going on and off and isn't as efficient as if it stayed on an hour at a time hence the 22kwh to maintain the water temperature at 80 degrees.

I'm not sure what the power draw is for the circulation pump and ozanator (sp) is but it has to be minimal.

Got-Soaked

[Dr. Spa]

Here is the mystery; if the tub dropped 9 degrees in 24 hours you would think the 5.5kw heater would run 2 hours out of 24 to maintain 80 degrees. Why I'm I seeing the kwh usage at 22 and not at 13kwh? I'm thinking the heater is going on and off and isn't as efficient as if it stayed on an hour at a time hence the 22kwh to maintain the water temperature at 80 degrees.

Got-Soaked

No mystery at all. It's all part of Newtons Law of cooling.. The greater the temperature difference the faster the exchange of heat.

Assuming you heat your spa to 100 degrees, and it cools to 91 degrees 24 hours later before you turn back on the heat... The system will need to run for less time to bring the temp back up to 100, than it would if it was continually kept at 100 degrees....

hmmmmmmm, maybe the savings isn't all that small, eh Roger?

[Got-soaked]

Here is the mystery; if the tub dropped 9 degrees in 24 hours you would think the 5.5kw heater would run 2 hours out of 24 to maintain 80 degrees. Why I'm I seeing the kwh usage at 22 and not at 13kwh? I'm thinking the heater is going on and off and isn't as efficient as if it stayed on an hour at a time hence the 22kwh to maintain the water temperature at 80 degrees.

Got-Soaked

No mystery at all. It's all part of Newtons Law of cooling.. The greater the temperature difference the faster the exchange of heat.

Assuming you heat your spa to 100 degrees, and it cools to 91 degrees 24 hours later before you turn back on the heat... The system will need to run for less time to bring the temp back up to 100, than it would if it was continually kept at 100 degrees....

hmmmmmmm, maybe the savings isn't all that small, eh Roger?

Dr. Spa,

You are supporting my argument that the Master Spa LSX1050 is an energy pig. Losing 9 degrees in 24 hours and monthly KW usage between 1000 - 2000 kW is crazy. Either Master Spa doesn’t sell many LSX1050 or owners of them don't mind spending $100 - $250 a month heating their hot tub. I can't speak for others but I rather take this company to court, pay a few thousand $$ up front and cut my losses and buy a D1, Marquis or Hot Springs. This way the next 10 years of owning a high efficiency tub will pay for itself along with lawyer fees it cost to take Master Spa East to court. Right now every time a get my electric bill I go bonkers.

[Roger]

hmmmmmmm, maybe the savings isn't all that small, eh Roger?

Small compared to what? If it saves you a couple bucks a month who cares? 27 or 29 dollars a month, seems I have better things to do than worry about 2 bucks. Even if it is 5 or 10 bucks, to have the tub ready whenever I want seems a privalage I deserve for that cost. Now if you start talking 20-30 bucks a month savings I would re-think.

[SundanceAltamarOwner]

____________________________________________________________________________

Can I ask you what type of tub you have. I own a Sundance and it seems to use much more electricity (10 Kwh/day in summer and 18.5 in winter)

[soakerman]

____________________________________________________________________________

Can I ask you what type of tub you have. I own a Sundance and it seems to use much more electricity (10 Kwh/day in summer and 18.5 in winter)

Thanks for sharing the real world cost of owning a " premium " spa .

575 kwh per month in winter is standard for most spas which equals $57.35 a month in winter. .10 cents a kwh.

Your use is normal and don't let a dealer tell you otherwise as you have your bill as proof.

[SundanceAltamarOwner]

____________________________________________________________________________

Can I ask you what type of tub you have. I own a Sundance and it seems to use much more electricity (10 Kwh/day in summer and 18.5 in winter)

Thanks for sharing the real world cost of owning a " premium " spa .

575 kwh per month in winter is standard for most spas which equals $57.35 a month in winter. .10 cents a kwh.

Your use is normal and don't let a dealer tell you otherwise as you have your bill as proof.

Yes, but I am in California where the temperatures are pretty mild. Where do you live and what is your usage. My brother-in-law, who has a Dimensions One and lives in my area, has a much lower bill than mine.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

Yes, but I am in California where the temperatures are pretty mild. Where do you live and what is your usage. My brother-in-law, who has a Dimensions One and lives in my area, has a much lower bill than mine.

If it were a thermal pane I'd advice you to properly insulate it but since its full foam I know it is insulated well already but your Sundance really should be costing you about the same as your BIL's D1 (assuming similar use). I wonder if you have an issue. The real answer is to put a meter on the spa to see what power it is directly drawing but unless your dealer has that set up its not so simple. I'd start by talking to the service people at the dealer.

[TravelingSpaGuy]

d1's are less to run, open celled foam vs closed cell foam, small circ pump vs big...lots of differences, but sundances arnt that efficent...d1 hotsprings and I found even Jacuzzi's cost less...other brands seem to do pretty well...Bullfrog, Vita, Marquis(I still think they an overpriced antispa), and even Arctic (the most successful thermopane spa, which is like saying the winner of the special olympics)...no offense to people in the special olympics but im sure they wouldnt hold their own in the real olympics

[Vermonter]

I have a Gulf Coast LX-7000, just got my first full month's electric bill.... for the month, my electric bill jumped above my average over the last year of 750 kwh/ month, to 1793 kwh/month... ouch. At 12 cents per kwh, this is an increase of about $120 for the month. The average temperature, according to my bill (it lists this on the bill in VT) was 24 degrees. I think I'd like to take the side panels off and add some 1" (or whatever will fit) foam board insulation. Are there any reasons I should not do this?

Tony

[SundanceAltamarOwner]

Yes, but I am in California where the temperatures are pretty mild. Where do you live and what is your usage. My brother-in-law, who has a Dimensions One and lives in my area, has a much lower bill than mine.

If it were a thermal pane I'd advice you to properly insulate it but since its full foam I know it is insulated well already but your Sundance really should be costing you about the same as your BIL's D1 (assuming similar use). I wonder if you have an issue. The real answer is to put a meter on the spa to see what power it is directly drawing but unless your dealer has that set up its not so simple. I'd start by talking to the service people at the dealer.

The service guy put a meter to measure how much amps each piece of equipment was drawing and he said they are all drawing fine. Is that what you mean by putting a meter on the spa?

[SundanceAltamarOwner]

d1's are less to run, open celled foam vs closed cell foam, small circ pump vs big...lots of differences, but sundances arnt that efficent...d1 hotsprings and I found even Jacuzzi's cost less...other brands seem to do pretty well...Bullfrog, Vita, Marquis(I still think they an overpriced antispa), and even Arctic (the most successful thermopane spa, which is like saying the winner of the special olympics)...no offense to people in the special olympics but im sure they wouldnt hold their own in the real olympics

Can I ask you what you are basing this on? I also thought that Jacuzzi's were built by the same folks as Sundance? Sundance also uses a small circulation pump but I don't know about the type of insulation.

[soakerman]

d1's are less to run, open celled foam vs closed cell foam, small circ pump vs big...lots of differences, but sundances arnt that efficent...d1 hotsprings and I found even Jacuzzi's cost less...other brands seem to do pretty well...Bullfrog, Vita, Marquis(I still think they an overpriced antispa), and even Arctic (the most successful thermopane spa, which is like saying the winner of the special olympics)...no offense to people in the special olympics but im sure they wouldnt hold their own in the real olympics

Can I ask you what you are basing this on? I also thought that Jacuzzi's were built by the same folks as Sundance? Sundance also uses a small circulation pump but I don't know about the type of insulation.

He doesent know, he just sells them! go with what owners tell you the actuall usage. I think the sundance is accurate but these dealers don't want to admit it. plain and simple. A spa will alwayd make your bill go up noticibly, anyone that says otherwise is not being accurate. If in doubt, call your local utillity company and ask them what a average spa uses a month in electrical cost. I bet you will find they don't agree with what the dealer said it would be MMMMMMMMM! Just a thought:)

[SundanceAltamarOwner]

d1's are less to run, open celled foam vs closed cell foam, small circ pump vs big...lots of differences, but sundances arnt that efficent...d1 hotsprings and I found even Jacuzzi's cost less...other brands seem to do pretty well...Bullfrog, Vita, Marquis(I still think they an overpriced antispa), and even Arctic (the most successful thermopane spa, which is like saying the winner of the special olympics)...no offense to people in the special olympics but im sure they wouldnt hold their own in the real olympics

Can I ask you what you are basing this on? I also thought that Jacuzzi's were built by the same folks as Sundance? Sundance also uses a small circulation pump but I don't know about the type of insulation.

He doesent know, he just sells them! go with what owners tell you the actuall usage. I think the sundance is accurate but these dealers don't want to admit it. plain and simple, a spa will always make your bill go up noticibly, anyone that says otherwise is not being accurate. If in doubt, call your local utillity company and ask them what a average spa uses a month in electrical cost. I bet you will find they don't agree with what the dealer said it would be MMMMMMMMM! Just a thought:)

Yes, but I have a Sundance and my hot tub used 18.5 kwh/day last month and my brother-in-law, who lives in the same areas as I has a D1 and it used half of what my Sundance used. I checked with the Sundance folks and they seem to have similiar insulation but maybe not. Anyone have any ideas?

[Dr. Spa]

Anyone have any ideas?

Yup... Unless you put a kW meter on the spa and record how many kW it uses over a period of time, all you're doing is guessing at how much power it's actually using. A difference in power consumption between this year and last year only indicates, well, a difference in power consumption for your entire house.

There are many things besides a spa that can increase your power consumption..... Some other appliance that's malfunctioning (like the extra fridge in the garage), a new TV that has a high power stand-by mode, a new computer that's left on all the time, a well pump with a leak, colder ambient temperature (the average temp is a poor indication of expected power use), or any other of probably 100+ things.

It's easy to blame the spa, but all the things I've mentioned above have been discovered to be the real power hogs over the years, and eventually reported on various message boards.

[SundanceAltamarOwner]

Anyone have any ideas?

Yup... Unless you put a kW meter on the spa and record how many kW it uses over a period of time, all you're doing is guessing at how much power it's actually using. A difference in power consumption between this year and last year only indicates, well, a difference in power consumption for your entire house.

There are many things besides a spa that can increase your power consumption..... Some other appliance that's malfunctioning (like the extra fridge in the garage), a new TV that has a high power stand-by mode, a new computer that's left on all the time, a well pump with a leak, colder ambient temperature (the average temp is a poor indication of expected power use), or any other of probably 100+ things.

It's easy to blame the spa, but all the things I've mentioned above have been discovered to be the real power hogs over the years, and eventually reported on various message boards.

I have done just that. I turned off the spa for 36 hours and monitored the kw usage. The kw usage went down to my pre-spa levels. Then I turned the spa back on and so far it is adding the expected load to the system (5.5 Kw/hour to heat). I will next try to see if perhaps it is poorly insulated making the heater go on a lot more than other tubs. I plan to ask my brother-in-law, whose tub is using less electricity, to turn off his tub for the night and I will do the same. Then I will be able to see how much the water temperature drops in his tub vs. how much mine does.

[spatech (the unreal one)]

He doesent know, he just sells them! go with what owners tell you the actuall usage. I think the sundance is accurate but these dealers don't want to admit it. plain and simple. A spa will alwayd make your bill go up noticibly, anyone that says otherwise is not being accurate. If in doubt, call your local utillity company and ask them what a average spa uses a month in electrical cost. I bet you will find they don't agree with what the dealer said it would be MMMMMMMMM! Just a thought:)

1) I love how you just decide that someone else doesn't know but we should just trust the owner yet a couple words later and you type that you "think the sundance is accurate but these dealers don't want to admit it". So you're deciding that others don't know but you somehow do know. How odd that a Costco spa owner and Costco employee knows the spa industry so well LOL.

2) Sure, the local utility company will tell you what on "average" spas cost to run but that average is a combination of poorly insulated spas like Hydro Spa and Infinity and well insulated spas like D1, Hot Spring, etc. so what is to be gained by finding out what this average is?

[soakerman]

He doesent know, he just sells them! go with what owners tell you the actuall usage. I think the sundance is accurate but these dealers don't want to admit it. plain and simple. A spa will alwayd make your bill go up noticibly, anyone that says otherwise is not being accurate. If in doubt, call your local utillity company and ask them what a average spa uses a month in electrical cost. I bet you will find they don't agree with what the dealer said it would be MMMMMMMMM! Just a thought:)

1) I love how you just decide that someone else doesn't know but we should just trust the owner yet a couple words later and you type that you "think the sundance is accurate but these dealers don't want to admit it". So you're deciding that others don't know but you somehow do know. How odd that a Costco spa owner and Costco employee knows the spa industry so well LOL.

2) Sure, the local utility company will tell you what on "average" spas cost to run but that average is a combination of poorly insulated spas like Hydro Spa and Infinity and well insulated spas like D1, Hot Spring, etc. so what is to be gained by finding out what this average is?

Perhaps to see if his electricle usage is " AVERAGE" or worse then " AVERAGE". That was tough:)

[Roger]

Like Doc said.....anything anyone says is purely speculation and guessing. There is only one way to find out how much power your spa is using. Meter it.

I think even Soaker would be suprised how much his uses. If it's 30-50 in Florida it would be 100 or better here.