2002 Caldera Paradise Martinique - replace Versa jet with VersaSage and slow drip from temp sensor despite silicone?

[TheWGP]

Howdy folks, I've gotten some great help from this forum in the past, including replacing all my electronics, so I'm no stranger to monkeying with the tub.  Now, I have two questions that I'm second-guessing myself on and am hoping for some help:

1)  I had to replace my temp sensor a year ago, and ordered an OEM replacement.  When I tightened it all back up and filled, it dripped, even tightened as far as I dared push the plastic screw-on nut to the housing.  So I applied silicone basically everywhere I could, and it all seemed fine. This month, though, I found it dripping again at the back of the temp sensor.  Guessing I didn't allow enough time for the silicone to dry before re-watering, maybe?  It is on there pretty solid, but is dripping.  Thought I'd ask here before taking any further steps, as I am very worried about breaking the plastic housing the more I mess with it.  Picture attached of the entire housing, drip visible at the bottom.

My question is - should I try to clean out the old silicone and reapply with an extended drying time?  Is there a specific silicone or other substance I should use?  Any tips to avoid breaking the temp sensor housing?

 

2) One VersaSsage jet broke, and replacing it was rough - after soaking in vinegar as best I could, ended up having to chip out the bottom of the old jet - which did work, and the new one seems to be in there fine.

BUT - I also have two Versa jets in the same seat that the manual ( available at https://www.thespaworks.com/sites/default/files/2002_paradise_series_owners_manual.pdf ) - says on page 15 can convert from Versa to VerssaSage.  That also appears to be the case from the parts diagram of the VersaSsage nozzles I purchased: https://www.hottubspasupplies.com/catalog/product/view/id/5863/s/005064-jet-vsr-insert-rotating-grey/category/2/ (Click Specifications to see the diagram)

I believe this is the Versa jet that is in there currently:  https://www.hottubspasupplies.com/catalog/product/view/id/5862/s/005044-jet-vsr-eyeball-set-assembly-directional/category/2/ and from this photo and the above diagram, I think I should be able to squeeze together the "pinch points" where there is an opening at the base to pull the jet out. 

Unfortunately, I can't get the darn Versa jet out.  I squeezed together on the "pinch points" at the base of one of the jets, and it just broke off.  I stopped and decided to post here just in case I've missed something.

My question is - any ideas about how to remove these two Versa jets other than vinegar soaking and then chipping away at them to remove?

 

Grateful for any thoughts on either this drip or how to remove these two Versa jets!

 

 

 

[RDspaguy]

Should have got a new o-ring in the sensor mount (thermowell). I would remove old silicone and replace o-ring. If you can't get the silicone off, get a new thermowell and replace it. 

Once those jets scale up they are pretty tough to get out. You could use a stronger acid, but beware the fumes! Otherwise, I find that swearing profusely helps out alot.

[TheWGP]

Ahhh, yeah, they didn't supply a new o-ring with the new thermostat so I reused the old one.  Not sure how to get the precise o-ring needed other than buy a new thermowell, which I guess is the part that comes with the o-ring.  I have a sinking feeling I'm headed for buying a new thermowell, and I hope not a new temp sensor.

I may see if I can find some stronger acid - any particular suggestions that aren't likely to harm the spa? I would probably pour some in the two jets I'd like to replace and walk away, give it a few minutes before even being near it. Then I guess it's time to chip away at those bases - I think if I get the base the rest will come out.

I have already employed swearing profusely with variable success on this hot tub! 😂

[RDspaguy]

Take the old o-ring to hone depot and root around in the o-ring drawers, you'll find something that will work.

1 part muriatic acid 3 parts water, gloves, sponge, respirator.

[TheWGP]

I'll give that a shot if I can retrieve the o-ring out of the silicone.  Unfortunately can't fill the tub till I resolve this so it goes well with the jet replacements. 

I found some "safer" muriatic acid with 90% less fumes from Home Depot to mix with water, and I'll grab a sponge for just this too - an upgrade to paper towels and vinegar for sure!

Now, if it would stop raining, that would be nice! At least it gives me time to get the stuff together.

Thank you for your help, RDspaguy - I'll update how it went once I'm done.

 

 

[RDspaguy]

👍

[TheWGP]

Wellllll...

Got the jets replaced OK.  Got an O-ring and the temp sensor situated OK.

Fill up through filter hole, flip breakers on, circ pump hums to life, temp reads 58 (agrees with physical tied on thermometer) and I stuck my arm in to check the circ flow coming out - felt it coming out the usual hole, I think a little warmer but not 100 percent, but sometimes it's hard to tell when it first starts up, so OK, this seems normal.  Go on about buttoning up the side, etc... 

And all of a sudden it just STOPS.  Nothing on the topside panel.  Breakers did not trip (either the 30 or 20 outside or the 50 inside).  Nothing is running. Crap.

Pulled the filter, opened it all up, everything appears OK but nothing happens when the breakers are flipped on.  Nothing from the LEDs on the board.  Nothing on the topside panel.  Just nothing.

Waited an hour and tried again, still nothing.  Used a no contact voltage tester and each line going in has power to the board.  The 3 wires from the relay board to the mainboard have power.  The black and white from the board for the blower seem to have power but not the circ pump or jet pump. Still no LEDs on the board.

No LEDs on the board and no response of any kind with the 30 on and 20 off, or vice versa, though obviously different wires have power, etc..

Now, the tub had been sitting dry and powered down since Monday April 27.  That's 5 days.  Longest it's sat dry since I've owned it, actually.  Could that have something to do with this odd behavior? 

Attached a pic of the new VersaSsage jets in (yay) and also the open control box.

Just when I thought I was done... 😅 Really hoping I don't have to replace the entire control box again.  

 

 

 

 

[RDspaguy]

Do you have a volt meter with probes, not just a tic-tracer? Check voltage between the black and red wires coming off of the heater board on the left to the main board (240v), then check each one to the white (120v).

On the bottom of the board there are rectangular relays. It looks like there is some discoloration, maybe corrosion, on the board above them. Can you tell what that is? You might pull the board and check the back for more. Clean it off with a toothbrush. 

[TheWGP]

I do have a multimeter but couldn't get it out tonight because the family had other things to do and I had already spent all afternoon on the tub.  I will test those wires hopefully tomorrow if it doesn't rain.  

Those orange spots were there when I installed the board (got it off eBay - actually got this box, board, power board, and topside all together) and it's been working.  I can pull the boards off to look at the back pending weather.  I believe I tried to wipe the spots off with a paper towel when I first installed the boards and didn't have any luck. 

[RDspaguy]

Ok. Thought they were a recent development.

[TheWGP]

Tested the black and red from the heater relay board to the mainboard (at the plugs on to the mainboard) and got 244v.  Tested each leg to the neutral off the relay board and got 122v.  122v is what I show in the house on our regular outlets.

Testing the hot plug to neutral plug for the blower gave 16some volts. The circ pump and jet pump show no appreciable voltage for the same measurement.

Testing the two wires to the heater on the relay board, H1 and H2, shows zero, but I am guessing that's normal because the board isnt calling for heat (or the HTR ON led would be lit).

[RDspaguy]

Sounds like the circuit board to me.

@CanadianSpaTech, @castletoniaanything to add?

[castletonia]

If there is power coming into the hot tub and power leaving the heater relay board, I would also assume bad main control board.

[TheWGP]

Well darn.  Any thoughts on what may have caused it to happen - just bad luck? I'd hate to scavenge another one off eBay or whatever only to have the same thing happen to that one.  Is that just a risk I have to take?

Fortunately iq2020 boards seem to come up with some regularity, and I'm working from the thought that the heater relay board I have is still good so that's something at least.

 

I really appreciate both of your thoughts on this!

[RDspaguy]

I have had numerous customers who ordered off ebay, amazon, etc... and got remanufactured parts, or just plain bad parts. One guy got a pump that had issues out of the box, so I called the manf. They said that those pumps had been recalled from the market and were supposed to have been sent to the dump. This does happen, I have taken a dozen or so pumps out of stock under order of the manf and the boss had me take them to recycle. If the recycle guy throws them up on ebay... you get a bad pump, and you'll never see a dime back. That's why they are cheap.

The stuff I asked about on that circuit board suggests it was not new, or had been improperly stored, or something, because a circuit board should not look like that. And I have seen those boards last 15 years. So it's not the boards fault. If you want to keep buying parts frequently, keep buying them off ebay.

I spent 25 years in the field (or should I say backyard?) fixing spas. And I will not sell you a board, I retired last year. Trust me, buy from a reputable industry supplier. Even better, buy from an authorized dealer, then you get manufacturers warranty, too. Which bulk buyers cannot offer. Your only warranty coverage is what they provide. Everybody says it has one, but talk is cheap when it's warranty time. And it can be easy or impossible depending on where you got it. 

So roll the dice if you like. I myself have never been a gambling man.

@castletonia, what's a ballpark dealer price on that board? Do you ship?

 

[TheWGP]

Oh yeah, I got that whole system (box, both boards, topside, some sensors) from someone on ebay for $150 if I remember correctly, used out of a spa that had sprung a leak.  I do all the work on this myself, ran my own electric (to code), it's a fun little hobby and it comes out of my "fun money" so yes, I do look for deals, but I buy a lot from websites that seem reputable too - like calderaspapartaplus, where I get parts in sealed Watkins bags.

My concern and question - regardless of where I get a new.board - is just trying to think of anything that might have caused the board to fail other than just corrosion, age, etc.  For example, the blower, jet pump, circ pump and heater are either original or installed by a dealer for the previous owner no later than 2010-2012 (I have service records) so there is some age there on those parts.  I'm worried about a potential cause of the bad board no matter where I source the replacement part from -  if the same thing fries it, a brand new board I pay $400 for is just as much a paperweight as the one I've got in there now, if there's some underlying potential issue I'm overlooking.

Does that make more sense?  Just trying to be thoughtful about tracking down the source of the issue before blindly throwing a new board at it.

 

[TheWGP]

Got this in my head so I did some searching - looks like the original board (verified with the one I have in the garage still) was a Watkins 39514, which apparently was replaced at some point by the Watkins 73181, which is currently replaced by Watkins 77089.  I was running what was labeled a Watkins 0974701, see my earlier pic with the label in the middle (that metal piece with the sticker came with that board).  I was told that was out of a Geneva, and it had a setting for my Martinique, so it worked fine.

Upshot is, some casual poking around appears to be $288 for the 77089 from, actually, calderaspapartsplus, who I trust.  Hopefully the topside I have will work with that model, as it's the one that came with the 0974701.  I'll poke around some more tomorrow. but it looks like the 74903 topside board isn't the easiest to find anymore, nor is the replacement circuit board to go inside.   In fact, the topside seems to be harder to find than the control board!

[RDspaguy]

Other than a power surge, I can think of nothing specific that would cause a board to fail as yours has, except perhaps the topside. Pumps and such damage their own circuits, this seems to be low voltage control side. That's board and topside.

 

[TheWGP]

That makes sense.  Thanks!  I'll update when I get the board swapped and hopefully everything's good again.

[TheWGP]

To avoid the issues with possible topside incompatibility, I ultimately sent the 0974701 board I had been running out to a company that repairs spa boards.  I also sent them the original 39514.

The results were that the 0974701 needed a new power supply/converter, and then it booted up and looked for a topside.  The original 39514 appeared to be working - booted up and looked for a topside with no repairs.  Makes me think that my original issues with that board might have been a bad topside, as I know the display was fritzy, perhaps other parts of it were too.  Unfortunately the topside is now quite hard to find from any supplier so I'll have to keep an eye out for a backup. 

I just put the repaired 0974701 board back in, and I am happy to report that it fired up just fine after successfully burping out an initial air lock, I imagine due to shop-vaccing out the water/vinegar from the jets I worked on.  Those new jets spin nicely - looking forward to trying them out once the tub's fully warmed up and the weather cooperates!

Thank you, again, @RDspaguy and @castletonia both for your comments on this! 

 

[DanDiego]

I’m glad I found this thread. 

I am in need of repair to my topside control panel 74903 and don’t like the potential incompatibility with replacement items. 

@TheWGP: what was the company you went with that repaired your spa board?

 

thanks,

Dan

[TheWGP]

@DanDiegoI successfully used http://spacentreinc.com/index.html - give them a call.

That topside control panel is just so hard to find, I hope yours is repairable.  The alternative to keep the tub running, if no compatible topside can be found, is a full control system replacement, from what I've read.

[DanDiego]

@TheWGP Thank you! I will give them a call.

[DanDiego]

I called Mark at SpaCentre. Nice guy as he immediately began texting me for photos of the circuit board from the topside unit. He mentioned I could send it, gave me an approx price of $200, but also kept my expectations in check by saying most topside units are not repairable.